Dropping Brown Shirts?

[Hawk200]

The Army, you cannot take off your blouse for any reason while out doors.

I don't know where you get this idea, I removed my ACU shirt on a regular basis, both on deployment, at regular drills, and have during schools that I attended.

I have been told in INWG "Black flag, Down tops and headgear." I have never done so, if in an urban environment such as damage assessment or UDF operations it detracts from the publick knowing who we are (not just a bunch of rag tags. I have told my cadets if they wish, they can.  None do however.

The envirnment matters. During public operations, no, it shouldn't be removed, but there should be locations set aside where people can remove headgear and shirts to cool down. And yes, those locations should optimally be away from the public eye.

The BDU uniform was made with another purpose in mind sun and insect protection. In MY opinion you shouldn't be taking off your blouse while working.

Sun and insect protection is not always a concern.

Also I have never seen where an encampment says you have to bring brown and only brown t shirts.

There are encampments that require it. Probably due to lack of update, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was for "cool factor."

If they want CADRE to wear Black t shirts they should supply them. There is no reason to make a cadet buy uniform parts for just one occasion.

Agreed.

One reason we supply them with brown is for the ability to see sweat when we are training.

A reactive policy, and not a good one. People should be checked on a regular basis, it's part of leadership. Waiting til they stop sweating is a bad idea. In the amount of time of time it takes the last of the sweat showing to evaporate, the individual would be in serious trouble, or dead. There are also environments where the sweat may never show, it would evaporate too quickly.

If anyone does know where a reg says to take off tops and head gear for black flag conditions, please let me know. I would love to find out.

Not specified as a uniform issue, it's a safety and operational one. One that mirrors military policies put forth for the safety of the individual.

[Hawk200]

I agree, I just can't stand when it comes over commo that everyone is to down their tops and perform search ops in the woods or city. It is impractical in the woods and unprofessional in the city.

Not practical to always remove tops and headgear. That's where cooldown points are important. When a mission has to get done, but it's seriously hot out, something has to give. A mission can't be accomplished if you're killing or injuring people.

Even dressed down, there are still certain uniform requirements that need to be met. Orange vests are still required, even when dressed down. That's a mistake I see regularly.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I was in the Army for about six years. At least in the Infantry you are not allowed to take your top off while outdoors. Although the Infantry is known for making higher than usual standards.

[Hawk200]

I was in the Army for about six years. At least in the Infantry you are not allowed to take your top off while outdoors. Although the Infantry is known for making higher than usual standards.

I wouldn't call them "higher" just different. As a helicopter mechanic, it's almost a necessity to remove your shirt, there are things you can't work on easily, or at all, with a shirt on. You run the risk of getting caught on things, or breaking them.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I can understand that. There are some very small spaces in a helicopter especially difficult to get to the old refrigerant units. (I think that's what their called)

[lordmonar]

I agree, I just can't stand when it comes over commo that everyone is to down their tops and perform search ops in the woods or city. It is impractical in the woods and unprofessional in the city.

Not practical to always remove tops and headgear. That's where cooldown points are important. When a mission has to get done, but it's seriously hot out, something has to give. A mission can't be accomplished if you're killing or injuring people.

Even dressed down, there are still certain uniform requirements that need to be met. Orange vests are still required, even when dressed down. That's a mistake I see regularly.

I have a problem where someone back at base is making the decisions about field uniform wear.

Out in the field...I don't care about uniformity.....I make call based on the conditions, weather and terrain and let each member make their own choice.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I have a problem where someone back at base is making the decisions about field uniform wear.

Out in the field...I don't care about uniformity.....I make call based on the conditions, weather and terrain and let each member make their own choice.

That really does get me that it always comes from base, especially when they are usually inside with AC. Go ahead and put it out on comms that the heat index is above 110 or something to that effect, but don't tell us we have to down tops.

[Eclipse]

I have never heard a mission base issue an all-hands order about uniforms in any fashion - that is usually the purview of Safety or
the Branch Directors or below, but even then it would be optional to leave your shirt on.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I hear it at almost every SAREX that is handled here above squadron level.

[Hawk200]

I can understand that. There are some very small spaces in a helicopter especially difficult to get to the old refrigerant units. (I think that's what their called)

Oh, no, we'd never put those in difficult spaces. The contents might get warm before we could use them.

There are other tight spaces that are a royal pain to get to, no matter how small the person is. We've had a female that's barely five foot, as petite as you can probably generally find in the military that has trouble getting into some spaces. There are some tough spots. What works for one group may be antithesis for others.

I have never heard a mission base issue an all-hands order about uniforms in any fashion - that is usually the purview of Safety or the Branch Directors or below, but even then it would be optional to leave your shirt on.

I have on occasions.

[lordmonar]

Well if it ever came over my radio....my response would be:

"That's nice, Copy All, Ground Team One, Out".



The instresting things is...1) I don't need anyones permission to allow my guys to take off their tops....it's already in the regs. 2) There is zero need for everyone, everywhere to be the same...they guys on the flight line may need to take them off, but the guys in the woods may need to keep them on.

If the IC/GBD/LSC is controlling their people that much then they need to lean a little about Micromanagement!

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Well if it ever came over my radio....my response would be:

"That's nice, Copy All, Ground Team One, Out".



The instresting things is...1) I don't need anyones permission to allow by guys to take off their tops....it's already in the regs. 2) There is zero need for everyone, everywhere to be the same...they guys on the flight line may need to take them off, but the guys in the woods may need to keep them on.

If the IC/GBD/LSC is controlling their people that much then they need to lean a little about Micromanagement!

Ah micromanagement. A beautiful thing huh?

[SarDragon]

Really?   You would send a cadet home for not wearing a black or brown t shirt? 

Why not?

When I went to encampment the first time, sometime in the two or three weeks prior, we had to take in our encampment gear to a local weekly meeting to get it checked. If units aren't doing that or something similar, they aren't doing their job.

[FlyTiger77]

Really?   You would send a cadet home for not wearing a black or brown t shirt? 

Why not?

When I went to encampment the first time, sometime in the two or three weeks prior, we had to take in our encampment gear to a local weekly meeting to get it checked. If units aren't doing that or something similar, they aren't doing their job.

Agreed. The old NCO adage of "Don't expect what you don't inspect" springs to mind.

[blkhwk]

 Hawk200... what airframes you work on? I'm guessing the Black Hawk....?  I am a 15D and 15T so I've pretty much worked with all of 'em.

[RiverAux]

I don't have a problem with different t-shirts for different flights at an encampment for identification purposes.  Keep in mind that the cadet and senior leaders are only with these people for a week and they are most likely not going to be able to learn the names and flights of every cadet at the encampment at the time.  I suspect that even at "real" boot camp the instructors don't have that down within the first week either.   But, as has been said, these off-reg shirts should be provided for the cadets free of charge. 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Most definitely River, anything that is required outside of Regulation should be provided. One way I can see getting around all that issue of who's flight are you in, is to make the shirts regulation. The way to tell what flight their in? Provide the Black or Brown t shirt and put an A, B, or C on the back in large block form. There is no reason that that can't be done if you are already going to have to shell out for every cadet's t shirts. Besides, why detract from uniformity with shirts that are out of regulation? If you are seeing a cadet who is lost, you will probably come up behind them anyways. If you do come up to them there is no reason they can't tell you what flight their in. Every cadet should be able to state their flight.

[Hawk200]

Hawk200... what airframes you work on? I'm guessing the Black Hawk....?  I am a 15D and 15T so I've pretty much worked with all of 'em.

Blackhhawks. I'm a Tango.

I suspect that even at "real" boot camp the instructors don't have that down within the first week either.

They don't, but they don't need special t-shirts to make the determination either. When it comes to an encampment, the people someone needs to worry about is the ones for which they're accountable. Anyone else, challenge them and ask.

Personally, it seems almost cowardly to put out t-shirts so one doesn't have to ask a cadet what flight they're in. If you don't have the guts to do that, then you shouldn't be in a leadership position in the first place.

Regs are there for a reason, the habit of ignoring them at times is trouble. Many activities make up their own uniform variations, but from what I'm seeing those uniform changes aren't being approved by the proper authority (usually the wing commander.)

The Wing CC is the corporate officer in any wing, and doing things without their approval could be considered simple insubrodination. If you have a uniform alteration at an encampment that is approved by the wing commander, you need to have a copy of it in writing that is distributed to all affected by it. "Oh, that's just not practical/that easy/too much trouble/necessary" is wrong. It's an unacceptable excuse for doing your own thing.

[Eclipse]

I suspect that even at "real" boot camp the instructors don't have that down within the first week either.

They don't, but they don't need special t-shirts to make the determination either. When it comes to an encampment, the people someone needs to worry about is the ones for which they're accountable. Anyone else, challenge them and ask.

Personally, it seems almost cowardly to put out t-shirts so one doesn't have to ask a cadet what flight they're in. If you don't have the guts to do that, then you shouldn't be in a leadership position in the first place.

Regs are there for a reason, the habit of ignoring them at times is trouble. Many activities make up their own uniform variations, but from what I'm seeing those uniform changes aren't being approved by the proper authority (usually the wing commander.)

Hawk200, you are totally getting one of the "nice" Christmas cards from me this year.

I hear this all the time - "I need to know which flight those cadets are in...".

1) Why aren't they assembled properly?

2) What sort of disarray is your activity that you have cadets scattered away from their squad leader(s)?

3) If you know where your cadets are, and who your cadets are, you don't need to know where anyone else's are, unless they
fall into your ranks, in which case your count is off.

4) As a flight CC you can't keep track of 10-15 cadets in a controlled environment with a list and a body count?
Not even with the help of a Flt Sgt and a TAC or two?

5) Why aren't they assembled properly?

6) What sort of disarray is your activity that you have cadets scattered away from their squad leader(s)?

50,000 foot identifiers like shirt colors are for situations where people are scattered and quick identification might be a safety issue,
or as in team sports there is controlled chaos and you need to pick out your man from 80 yards away.

Nothing in CAP ever should fall into that category - certainly not encampment or ES.

[blkhwk]

I was in the Army for about six years. At least in the Infantry you are not allowed to take your top off while outdoors. Although the Infantry is known for making higher than usual standards.

  AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA..... sorry.....reflex.... As I have seen it.... the infantry is known for making things harder than they have to be....which is often confused for "higher standards"  Sorry, had to.... 

  I'm not just ragging on 11 series to be an ass, I have a EIB, and Air Assualt wings, to go with my crew wings.  By the way.... how did y'all do those little panels at the bottom of your posts with all the ribbons and stuff? Kinda cool.