ARM and GRM dead

[piperl4]

It is a real shame that the CAP got out of the ARM and GRM business as it was a great thing when we were doing it in the 1970's and 80's. I was rated in both not by taking a class but for more than a dozen classes and actual flying time with a CDV781 system, that I still keep current and fully functional. I still have over 25 CDV777-2 kits if anyone wants collector items. In Delaware we are in the area of 3 nuke plants, including 3 mile island, Salem, Limrick. In the late 70's we used a PA18 surplus and a L19 surplus and you set your kit up for the backseat driver whoever's turn it was to fly both actual and practice sorties. We only had 2 person crews then and all plotting was done on a sectional under plexi glass and a grease pen. It was both fun and educational and we actually felt like we were doing something besides boring holes in the sky. I think my biggest disapointment in all my years in the CAP was the day I looked at my 101 card and both ARM and GRM was gone and never with any discussion. I have heard many rumors about why but the only  one that seemed to make the most sense was just a turf war between the National Guard and CAP and I was in both at the time. I still think it is a valid tool in todays world and we can do it just as well and much cheaper than anyone else. The rumor about safety did not hold water as if properly flown there is no safety risk to the crew either ground or air. However during all State Nuke accident exercises we still provide sample transportation to knoxville if needed. So I normally pull that duty even if it does not make sense as by the time we get there the incident is over. Also the USDA does crop damage assessments using CAP to take the pictures. So I do not know how many of you out there ever had an interest in either the ARM and GRM but according to regulations I still wear my patch as I am the only one in the Wing that still qualifies for it. My be just a change in the times as next month going to ARCHER training so guess that should be interesting and hopefully provide the feeling of actually doing something. Anyone want a mint condition CDV-781 lol just jokeing as that puppy may yet be used again.  If anyone has any factual info on what happened I really would like to know the truth of why it went awayt.
Regards
Dave Henderson
MER DE006

[RVT]

We just got issued the equipment and told to take the mission back up.  Granted the equipment we got is probably about 30 years old, but apparently it is not a forgotten mission.

[piperl4]

That's great, but how are you logging the mission type and without it being on the 101 would be difficult as there would be no profile to fit the flight or proper mission symbol. Happy that they are doing it but would worry about the problems if something happened on a mission would you be covered. If you are using the old equipment like any of the CDV series they would have to be calibrated every year and right now I think there is only one company doing it in the us for customers like us. We are still issued dosimeters the new ones that look like pagers but that is not a measuring device as in mission measurements only personal does exposure. Who knows maybe you guys will get us back in the air with it.
Thank
Dave

[Eclipse]

How do you "take up" a mission that has no training, no qualification process, and no mandate from NHQ?

ARM and GRM were cold war era programs, the cold war is over.

Donate the equipment to a local museum and move on.

[Mustang]

How do you "take up" a mission that has no training, no qualification process, and no mandate from NHQ?

This was the only sensible portion of your post. It went downhill from here.  I would argue that the threat of dirty bombs and suitcase nukes renders the ARM/GRM skillset every bit as relevant today as it was during the cold war. 

What I find ridiculous is the current standard for the ARM patch, which has been reduced to a single sentence found in CAPM 39-1: "Awarded for completion of any state or FEMA radiological monitoring course."   

In contrast, the requirements used to be:

a. Complete the 16-hour civil defense home study course, "Introduction to Radiological Monitoring." [the 271-page course manual can be found here]

b. Complete the 8-hour practical training course, "Aerial Radiological Training."

c. Be certified as an aerial radiological monitor by a Civil Defense Agency.

And oh, by the way: back then, one had to become certified as an ARM prior to certification as a Mission Observer.

[Eclipse]

 This is one of those missions best left to professionals.

[BillB]

Best left to professionals, I agree even though I did have ARM on a 101. How many Squadrons nationally still have working Geiger counters? CAP is no longer equipped to do this mission.

[NIN]

This is one of those missions best left to professionals.

How so?

While I'll agree that the original "threat" that necessitated this mission is gone (the USSR and the Cold War), I think that the capability is something we should not lose, necessarily.  That mission really does have relevance today, in a different context. 

[Persona non grata]

I am a GRM and ARM my firend and it is still a real threat. The cold war might be over but there are still other rad threats out there that us PROS know  about.  That cold war era rad equipment is still being usesd by most agencies and still get the job done.

DUCK AND COVER

[Hawk200]

DUCK AND COVER

You can find it on eBay.

[a2capt]

DUCK AND COVER

Or the newer version, "DUCT AND COVER" .. Duct tape and plastic sheeting from the early 2000's ..

[RiverAux]

Always had mixed feelings about this mission.  Personally, unless I see some actual strategy for employment of CAP members in either of these roles along with detailed training and PPE, I won't be involved.  Doesn't seem to be any interest at all in it at NHQ so you wonder why we're still keeping the quals around. 

[LTC Don]

This is one of those missions best left to professionals.

How so?

While I'll agree that the original "threat" that necessitated this mission is gone (the USSR and the Cold War), I think that the capability is something we should not lose, necessarily.  That mission really does have relevance today, in a different context.

We were actually safer during the Cold War.  The Soviet Union fully understood the concept of MAD and respected it.  There were of course a couple of times we really came to the brink, back in the sixties, but during the late seventies and eighties...the threat was an arguable paper tiger.

Today, those that fully intend to do us harm have no respect for MAD and are fully prepared to sacrifice their soil in the name of Allah.  ARM and GRM are far more relevant today. 

I also qualified ARM back in 1982.  As a CAP volunteer.

Our whole purpose for being is to relieve the "professionals" to do more important things, or to help supplement them as a force multiplier.  There are far more of us than them, and they don't have 550 aircraft marshal to the cause.

If we did it then, then why should the 'professionals' have to do it now?  Gamma radiation is Gamma radiation 


Cheers,

[piperl4]

We just got issued the equipment and told to take the mission back up.  Granted the equipment we got is probably about 30 years old, but apparently it is not a forgotten mission.
Someone sent me 25.00 for a 777 kit but nothing for the 10.00 postage. I would like to get it out so if that person gets this email please either let me know who you are and I will send a refund or send the 10.00 and I will get a kit out to you. I have about 25 left but have been in the hospital with ALS and every thing else Uncle Sam could think to give me. Anyway if anyone wants a 777-2 kit they are 25.00 and 10.00 shipping. I feel bad about forgetting the persons name so after thinking of it I will skip their shipping if you just resend your name. I have part of it but not enough to ship.
Take care all got the Archer TRAC done and found it to be a lot of fun and differant. After being a MP for over 30 years and being demoted and relagated to MO or MS because of meds I guess I am lucky to find something else that interest me,
Have fun while you can as the time runs out quick!!

[ThorntonOL]

To be honest, this might be needed again, with the meltdowns on Japan, and possible radiological leakage from the Marcellus Shale drilling, I can see some areas of the country having an active program still.
All it would really be is monitoring for leakage/contamination. Along that thought pattern, if we did have a similar incident, we might even be asked to see how far or where the leakage/contamination extends to.
Just a thought.

[Майор Хаткевич]

To be honest, this might be needed again, with the meltdowns on Japan, and possible radiological leakage from the Marcellus Shale drilling, I can see some areas of the country having an active program still.
All it would really be is monitoring for leakage/contamination. Along that thought pattern, if we did have a similar incident, we might even be asked to see how far or where the leakage/contamination extends to.
Just a thought.

Honestly I think that's a pipe dream. The pilots who flew over Chernobyl to "map it out" didn't fare too well. Their skill was about as lacking as CAPs would be in a real world situation. Like Eclipse said, leave it to the professionals, or at least the folks with the more modern equipment that doesn't still run on tubes...

[jks19714]

I used to instruct some of those courses when I was a volunteer in Delaware's Emergency Management Agency (when I started it was "CD" ).  I still have calibrated equipment and some of the training material in fact.

One can do a much better job with a GPS, modern survey meter like the AN/VDR-2, and a clipboard than we could with the old CDV-781.

"Leaving it to the professionals" is all well and good BUT the professionals have a finite number of aerial platforms and crews with which to perform surveys.  You would be surprised how few!

john

[BillB]

The problem is CAP no longer has the equipment for Radiological Monitoring. FEMA grants are possible for the equipment, but I haven't seen any interest from NHQ to consider the program again.

[lordmonar]

The Nuclear Reglator Agency has their own fleet of monitoring aircraft.....so CAP won't be call in.

Even back in the day ARM and GRM was geared more toward a nuclear attack instead of an accident.

GRM is right out.....not only do we not have the monitoring equipment....we don't have the protective gear.

If some agency is willing to give us multi-thousands of dollars....I would rather buy GPSs and L-Pers.