PJOC students going on to be PJs

[RiverAux]

According to this article at Air Force Times, the AF is having a tough time getting people into some of the ground-oriented special operations jobs like PJs.  Part of the reason is the fact that so many youths can't get into the military in the first place and that the AF has to compete with the other services for those who have the ability and interest to participate in the very exclusive spec ops jobs. 

The AF still gets a lot of folks to apply for these jobs, but for PJs only about 15-20% make it through the training to graduate.

So, it looks like they're wanting to be more selective about who even gets in the front door so that they don't waste a lot of time and money on those that won't ever make it anyway.  Apparently one of the reasons for the high attrition is that many didn't know what they were getting themselves into.

Which brings us around to PJOC whose primary purpose is to let CAP cadets get an idea of what PJOC is all about.  I see several things that could be done to help the AF out in this area:

1.  Expand PJOC to make it available to more cadets thereby increasing the number that may decide it is the career for them. 

2.  Somehow work with the AF recruiters to make them aware of local PJOC graduates that may be interested into going into that career. 

I know at least one PJOC cadet that has gone into the AF and gotten into that field, so it does work.  But, before doing anything I would recommend some sort of retrospective study on what percentage of PJOC cadets go into the AF and what percent try for PJs.  That percentage is probably relatively small, but I think that could be increased with effort.  Also, we'd be interested in seeing how many former PJOC cadets that did enlist for PJs actually made it.  In other words, we'd want to know whether former PJOC cadets are more likely than others to go through.   If not, then we can probably dismiss this whole thread. 

Keep in mind that the AF isn't looking for large numbers of people -- they've only got slot for about 3,000 people in these fields at a time, so getting 20 or 30 former PJOC cadets to go go PJ when they need to only graduate about 180 a year would be a big deal. 

Something similar might be done for the combat controller orientation course if it continues (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=7512.msg138178#msg138178)

[sarmed1]

I wouldnt be suprised to see the statistic between the number of former PJOC grads who, enlist (or commision) that either a test for and fail the PAST and or wash out of indoc is fairly same to the AF's overall 15-20% success rate for all recruits.

mk

[lordmonar]

The PJ's problem is (and always has been) that their standards are too tough and their pipeline is too small.

If need 3000 PJ....let's say you have a 10% attrition rate in the field (due to medical issues, retirements, separations and cross training) that means you have to train 300 new people each year.

If the training is dropping 80+% then that means your initial school must be larger then your TOTAL manpower!

I know it is sacrilege to suggest lowering standards....but if you fail because you don't have enough people it is just as bad if you fail because of lower training standards.

It is a dammed if you do an dammed if you don't.

INDOC training is designed to reduce the number of wash outs during qualification training.
Qualification training usually drops a few more due to medical issues.

The career field is always undermanned....the only answers are either suck it up or make it easier for people to get into the career field.

For the record I tried out for PJ's back in '86 and failed the PAST.  Through out my AF career the PJs were always lamenting (they don't cry  ) about being undermanned.....and at the same time they were fiercely proud of the fact that they have the highest wash out rate of any service's (and any country IIRC) special forces training.

Well.....you can't have you cake and eat it too.

[coudano]

I know a lot of pjoc grads in the Army and Marines.

[RiverAux]

The PJ's problem is (and always has been) that their standards are too tough and their pipeline is too small.

If need 3000 PJ....let's say you have a 10% attrition rate in the field (due to medical issues, retirements, separations and cross training) that means you have to train 300 new people each year.

It sounds like what they're wanting to do is to get more of the "right" people in the pipeline in the first place so that the attrition rate drops not because of lowering standards, but because they're being more selective on the front end.  Thats where I think it may be possible for PJOC (and the advanced course as well) to come in...

[Stonewall]

One of my former cadets graduated PJOC and is now a PJ.  Another was in the pipeline but not sure of his status.

I also have a former cadet that graduated PJOC and is an HH-60 CSAR pilot who works regularly with the PJ I mentioned.

[lordmonar]

The PJ's problem is (and always has been) that their standards are too tough and their pipeline is too small.

If need 3000 PJ....let's say you have a 10% attrition rate in the field (due to medical issues, retirements, separations and cross training) that means you have to train 300 new people each year.

It sounds like what they're wanting to do is to get more of the "right" people in the pipeline in the first place so that the attrition rate drops not because of lowering standards, but because they're being more selective on the front end.  Thats where I think it may be possible for PJOC (and the advanced course as well) to come in...

The Problem is that "the right people" all joined the Marines and the Army.

[Star-Maker]

Are female cadets allowed to do PJOC (I haven't been able to find anything online suggesting that they aren't)?

Because, if they are, that could skew the percentage of PJOC cadets who try for PJs later.  Since women aren't allowed to be PJs.

[DC]

Are female cadets allowed to do PJOC (I haven't been able to find anything online suggesting that they aren't)?

Because, if they are, that could skew the percentage of PJOC cadets who try for PJs later.  Since women aren't allowed to be PJs.

They are, I know of one personally, and I'm sure there are others. Could it skew perception? Yes, if the cadets are not willing to do 5 minutes worth of research online.

[PHall]

Are female cadets allowed to do PJOC (I haven't been able to find anything online suggesting that they aren't)?

Because, if they are, that could skew the percentage of PJOC cadets who try for PJs later.  Since women aren't allowed to be PJs.

Yes, female cadets are allowed to complete both PJOC and APJOC. I have had several female cadets from my squadron complete both courses.

[RiverAux]

Are female cadets allowed to do PJOC (I haven't been able to find anything online suggesting that they aren't)?

Because, if they are, that could skew the percentage of PJOC cadets who try for PJs later.  Since women aren't allowed to be PJs.

Good point about how stats on how many PJOC cadets go on to be PJs would have to be adjusted to take out all the female cadets. 

[Nathan]

If they let gays and women into the PJ field, I'm sure their problems will be lessened considerably.  :angel:

[AirAux]

We must be very, very, careful, cause CAP is not a recruiting tool..

[Nathan]

We must be very, very, careful, cause CAP is not a recruiting tool..

It's not a recruiting tool from our point of view, but Big Blue probably wouldn't be nearly as supportive of us without the steady influx of semi-trained cadets we send their way as recruits.

At least as far as encampments and many NCSA's are concerned, we're also going for an introduction to the military lifestyle or a job area within the military. If we're going to be introducing cadets to a military job, we might as well introduce as many cadets as we can to a job field where the military needs people.

I do agree with you in spirit. If we're trying to teach cadets how to be leaders, dynamic citizens, and independent thinkers, then taking on the role of recruiter or enabling military recruiters to have significantly more access to cadets is going to compromise that. However, simply allowing more people to attend an activity which provides an introduction to a job the military happens to need help with isn't quite over the line into recruiting, or even becoming a recruiting source. It's more just our reaction to the fact that the military needs people in the pararescue field, where we would be exposing a larger number of people to the field and letting them make their own choice.

So just an increase in surface area, not in actual overall strength. I think that's allowable.

[RiverAux]

We must be very, very, careful, cause CAP is not a recruiting tool..

Says who? 

In this case I explicitly suggesting that the AF take a look at the possibilities of using this particular program to help them fill a big gap in their recruiting pipeline.   

[snoopy1894]

Let me remind you guys that there is already an official USAF benefit for recruiting purposes that involves APJOC. At the end of APJOC, cadets can take the PAST and if they pass it they get a letter from the AF allowing them if they enlist a slot in pararescue training (indoc and then the pipeline) under the GTEP. The apjoc website that confirms this seems to be down right now so ill just show this link that has another person confirming this......its the 9th post down       http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=7144.0      Additionally, are you sure that they have 3,000 slots? Because the number of active PJs has for the most part been from 300-400. Now I know they are undermanned, but that seems a little ridiculously undermanned. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

I know a previous cadet who never went to PJOC, but is close to finishing up his primary PJ training and going to his unit. Indoc was with 116 members. 2+ years later it's down to 16.

[RiverAux]

Let me remind you guys that there is already an official USAF benefit for recruiting purposes that involves APJOC. At the end of APJOC, cadets can take the PAST and if they pass it they get a letter from the AF allowing them if they enlist a slot in pararescue training (indoc and then the pipeline) under the GTEP. The apjoc website that confirms this seems to be down right now so ill just show this link that has another person confirming this......its the 9th post down       http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=7144.0      Additionally, are you sure that they have 3,000 slots? Because the number of active PJs has for the most part been from 300-400. Now I know they are undermanned, but that seems a little ridiculously undermanned.

Well, thats very interesting and does show that the AF is thinking of CAP's program as I had suggested.  The 3000 number represents all of the different jobs that fall under AF special operations, not just PJs.