CAP Uniform Regulation Working Group Change Suggestions

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

As it stands today, the CSU is the only formal uniform option open to many members which allows for the wear of ribbons, badges, etc., in an equal way with their counterparts who wear the USAF-Style service dress.

The current plan to retire that combo in Jan 2012 leaves only the blazer as the formal option, which does not allow for the wear of grade, badges, or ribbons (beyond the nameplate).

So when you suggest that losing the USAF-style would be detrimental to those who wear it because they could no longer show off their plumage, consider this is already an issue on the table for many members.  Goose and gander should be treated equal in a volunteer environment.

I think the decision to completely get rid of the CSU is at best very wrongheaded.

If it's to be got rid of, then why did General Courter make the modifications she did in her ICL?

The modifications more than fill the bill for making the CSU a CAP-distinctive uniform:

Lose metal grade - check.
Lose blue AF epaulettes - check.

Grey epaulettes - check.
Grey nameplate - check.

The view of uniforms "not looking like a military service" is worded so vaguely to not even be cogent.

If an E-1 who forgot his/her glasses walking down the street on an AFB sees a CAP member wearing ANY sort of blue trousers or jacket and hasn't the faintest idea of what CAP is, and goes and complains to their first shirt, and it somehow gets to the ears of a Wing or Region Commander, and then to National, immediately a round of hand-wringing starts at National.

I don't get it at all.  Look at photos of CAP up until the early '90s (pre-berry board).  We had members wearing uniforms nearly identical to the USAF...with distinguishing marks like CAP cutouts, blue CAP embroidered epaulettes and flight/service cap insignia.  As far as I can tell, it worked.

But now it seems that if anything other than the grey/whites is mooted, the hand-wringing starts all over again.

I've postulated that it's either/or:

CAP is trying to purge itself of anything to do with the former Generalissimo.

CAP is still so stung by the berry board days that it walks on eggshells, afraid of anything blue making the above-referenced E-1 mad, that it overcompensates.

Or maybe it's something else.

I just hope National allows the modified CSU to continue.

[NCRblues]

"CAP is trying to purge itself of anything to do with the former Generalissimo.

CAP is still so stung by the berry board days that it walks on eggshells, afraid of anything blue making the above-referenced E-1 mad, that it overcompensates."

More than likely it is both of these things combined, but word it more like this....

"CAP is trying to purge itself of anything to do with the former Generalissimo, and it is walking on eggshells because we don't need more bad publicity, and cant afford another Generalissimo like attitude"

[a2capt]

LOL, "Generalissimo".. well, they surely waited long enough to do it. Ugh.

I just think the whole this, then that, hip-shooting attitude that came with all that, both his doings, and then the undoings of them, are equally as aggravating. To everyone involved, Vanguard, HQ and whatever agreements they have to do WRT to buying any existing stock, etc. It's one gigantic waste and disrespect of volunteer members money.

[Custer]

Khaki... Ok, we could look like navy... no thanx

Actually you would look like a Wal-mart or Petco employee, now that I think about it.  Almost every retail store out here uses either a red polo over black pants (Staples, Sport Chalet) or blue over Khaki.  So good point, we have to avoid those.

[a2capt]

That reminded me of this:

http://improveverywhere.com/2006/04/23/best-buy/

Watch the video, and see how non-uniform, 'uniforms' hold up. ;-)


..and should we be dressed in similar fashion, hope we're not ever looking for a 406 personal beacon in said store ... At least in great numbers.

[heliodoc]

Indeed

The Generalissimo and the berry boards.... and stepping on eggshells...'cuz CAP and its lame and willy nilly 39-1 (oh did I just blasphme the 39-1) and its ability for the membership to FOLLOW the USAF in its guidelines ought to scream....CAP in a NEW and non military uniform

These threads will go 'round and 'round in both CAP and CAPTalk until time ends.  A new uniform for ALL the anorexoics (sp) and chubby and fuzzies MIGHT get everyone into a semblance of order so ALL can wear ONE uniform...let the 70 yr old identity to a USAF uniform begin...3...2...1  START!

CAP will never get over this stuff (crap) and move on...

Move on.......to a completely new uniform...  MAYBE ACU / ABU like everyone is hoping..

Hopefully, there will be "standards" unlike the days and daze of BDU wear. 

[Eclipse]

^ Probably the first time a DVD was sold at a Best Buy without a service plan.   

[High Speed Low Drag]

Indeed

The Generalissimo and the berry boards.... and stepping on eggshells...'cuz CAP and its lame and willy nilly 39-1 (oh did I just blasphme the 39-1) and its ability for the membership to FOLLOW the USAF in its guidelines ought to scream....CAP in a NEW and non military uniform

These threads will go 'round and 'round in both CAP and CAPTalk until time ends.  A new uniform for ALL the anorexoics (sp) and chubby and fuzzies MIGHT get everyone into a semblance of order so ALL can wear ONE uniform...let the 70 yr old identity to a USAF uniform begin...3...2...1  START!

CAP will never get over this stuff (crap) and move on...

Move on.......to a completely new uniform...  MAYBE ACU / ABU like everyone is hoping..

Hopefully, there will be "standards" unlike the days and daze of BDU wear.

I agree with Hekiodoc (I think what he is saying) that we should go to ONE set of uniforms for Seniors that is NOT USAF based.

Charcoal Gray / Whites with option for a LAPD Blue Service coat  (As I argued a lot for on other boards).

Blue BDUs
Kill the polo shirts, blazer, and mess dress.  Follow previous cadet lead and substitute a bow tie w/ service coat for semi-formal.
Navy Blue Flight suit

There - we have all of the uniforms we need.  Case closed.  The only ones that oppose it are the ones that "I'll take off my USAF-style uniform when you peel it from my cold, dead body."  We can remain close to our heritage while still in ONE set of uniforms.

CADETS - They stay as-is.  (USAF Blues, Woodland BDUs until switch to whatever AF is wearing)

[Hawk200]

I agree with Hekiodoc (I think what he is saying) that we should go to ONE set of uniforms for Seniors that is NOT USAF based.

Charcoal Gray / Whites with option for a LAPD Blue Service coat  (As I argued a lot for on other boards).
...
Blue BDUs
Kill the polo shirts, blazer, and mess dress.  Follow previous cadet lead and substitute a bow tie w/ service coat for semi-formal.
Navy Blue Flight suit

There - we have all of the uniforms we need.  Case closed.  The only ones that oppose it are the ones that "I'll take off my USAF-style uniform when you peel it from my cold, dead body."  We can remain close to our heritage while still in ONE set of uniforms.

CADETS - They stay as-is.  (USAF Blues, Woodland BDUs until switch to whatever AF is wearing)

Seniors in one uniform, cadets in another. Not very "uniform".

For every person that says it'll be a cold day in Hell before they give up blues, there's another one that possesses a similar sentiment about polos. Yeah, they're easy, I own a couple now too.

I remember a time when people thought, "Don't want to wear blues? Fine, we don't need you!". Seems like a few on this board have the idea, "You want to wear blues? Fine, we don't need you!"

CAP has always been in a variant of a military uniform. There were probably times when people might not have been admitted if they were outside of weight/grooming standards. But now people wish to take something away from others. It's not about everyone looking alike, it's about everyone being "equal". Not everyone is equal on all accounts.

I've made suggestions about alternate uniforms, ones that I wouldn't have a problem wearing if that's my only option. But it seems like those suggestions were ignored. More important to take something away from someone else, instead of earning the right to something if they can (pay close attention that).

The day is most likely coming that I will not be able to wear the blues. When it does, I'll man up and wear the alternate. But, if I have to give up something just so someone doesn't feel inferior, then I will leave. Because the mission is no longer a concern to the organization.

[Eclipse]

The day is most likely coming that I will not be able to wear the blues. When it does, I'll man up and wear the alternate. But, if I have to give up something just so someone doesn't feel inferior, then I will leave. Because the mission is no longer a concern to the organization.

What role do our service dress options have in performing the missions?

[Hawk200]

What role do our service dress options have in performing the missions?

You tell me.

[Eclipse]

What role do our service dress options have in performing the missions?

You tell me.

Its your assertion...

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Indeed

The Generalissimo and the berry boards.... and stepping on eggshells...'cuz CAP and its lame and willy nilly 39-1 (oh did I just blasphme the 39-1) and its ability for the membership to FOLLOW the USAF in its guidelines ought to scream....CAP in a NEW and non military uniform

These threads will go 'round and 'round in both CAP and CAPTalk until time ends.  A new uniform for ALL the anorexoics (sp) and chubby and fuzzies MIGHT get everyone into a semblance of order so ALL can wear ONE uniform...let the 70 yr old identity to a USAF uniform begin...3...2...1  START!

CAP will never get over this stuff (crap) and move on...

Move on.......to a completely new uniform...  MAYBE ACU / ABU like everyone is hoping..

Hopefully, there will be "standards" unlike the days and daze of BDU wear.

I agree with Hekiodoc (I think what he is saying) that we should go to ONE set of uniforms for Seniors that is NOT USAF based.

Charcoal Gray / Whites with option for a LAPD Blue Service coat  (As I argued a lot for on other boards).

Blue BDUs
Kill the polo shirts, blazer, and mess dress.  Follow previous cadet lead and substitute a bow tie w/ service coat for semi-formal.
Navy Blue Flight suit

There - we have all of the uniforms we need.  Case closed.  The only ones that oppose it are the ones that "I'll take off my USAF-style uniform when you peel it from my cold, dead body."  We can remain close to our heritage while still in ONE set of uniforms.

CADETS - They stay as-is.  (USAF Blues, Woodland BDUs until switch to whatever AF is wearing)

Except that National would probably have a collective coronary over any suggestion that had any shade of BLUE in it.

Grey seems to have won the day as the default CAP hue (and cry)...

[JohnKachenmeister]

Yes, in the 60's and 70's there were servicemen that wore the Blues, but not the whole Army, the Army changed the uniform during that time about 8-9 times at least. just from that time period my father has, (that he wore during his service) Blues Greens and Tans. and that is the problem that I have, change just for the sake of change is never a good thing, especially when it comes to what an organization is recognized as wearing. Also, yes anyone and everyone in the Army is ALLOWED to wear the blues, but until now it was never required, and at least as long as I was in, it was highly discouraged, and in the infantry world, you were not allowed to wear them unless wearing the full size medals, and at a formal unit ball.

I beg to differ.

The entire Army wore blues until the late 1800's when the khaki uniform was introduced as a service uniform.  The blues were still worn as a formal, "After 6" uniform.  Officers were required to have a set by the first formal reception after their commissioning, and most bought them as soon as they pinned on the gold bar.

The requirement to have dress blues was suspended in World War II due to the war emergency.

The Army has recently returned to the Blues as a service dress uniform, but it has always been required for officers, of all branches... not just cav, as a formal uniform.  I usually wore ribbons, but when I was overseas, I was directed to wear full size medals at a formal reception in the host country.

[Hawk200]

What role do our service dress options have in performing the missions?

You tell me.

Its your assertion...

Wanting to believe something doesn't make it fact. Read it again, a few times if necessary. If you don't get it by then, I'm not going to explain it to you.

[andysum15]

The first thing I would say is that we need to keep the regulations up to date so it is easier to enforce the standards. This is very hard to do when there is very little information on uniforms in service.

I would like to see the blue formal uniform continue whether it be air force style or CSU, which ever we us it should stay for a long time. The biggest gripe I have heard "Why have they changed it again, I have just spent a fortune getting this uniform and now it is no longer to be used. I am not buying anymore". These members then loose interest and become inactive or leave.

If we go for the grey uniform why not look at the Royal Air Force style uniform. I wear my old RAF pants and the sweater matches the grey rank slides. Its a smart uniform, the pants can be worn with a tunic or the sweater. The RAF blue light weight jacket is the same as the one the US Air Force use so that could be worn with the grey pants.


Lets keep a military style uniform and have up to date regulations.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The first thing I would say is that we need to keep the regulations up to date so it is easier to enforce the standards. This is very hard to do when there is very little information on uniforms in service.

I would like to see the blue formal uniform continue whether it be air force style or CSU, which ever we us it should stay for a long time. The biggest gripe I have heard "Why have they changed it again, I have just spent a fortune getting this uniform and now it is no longer to be used. I am not buying anymore". These members then loose interest and become inactive or leave.

If we go for the grey uniform why not look at the Royal Air Force style uniform. I wear my old RAF pants and the sweater matches the grey rank slides. Its a smart uniform, the pants can be worn with a tunic or the sweater. The RAF blue light weight jacket is the same as the one the US Air Force use so that could be worn with the grey pants.


Lets keep a military style uniform and have up to date regulations.

Sir, I agree with everything you say.

However, I have an RCAF "wedge cap," identical to the RAF pattern and very attractive, but it has more blue in it than National seems to be willing to tolerate.

http://www.rmcclub.ca/everitaswp/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/shaw_col_resized_jan_06.jpg

http://www.army.dnd.ca/lfwa_hq/Photos/EN2003-254-10D.jpg

The same would go for the pullover jumper.

As much as I dislike it, National is saying that, if you don't wear the AF-type uniform you have a myriad of choices, as long as they are grey and/or polo shirts.

If anything is done with the greys, the best we can hope for is some sort of knockoff of the current Bundeswehr (German Army) uniform:

http://img6.myimg.de/Heer2b5e22.jpg

Note: not Luftwaffe, eeeek, it's blue, can't have that, it'll tick someone off!

http://www.lhd-shop.de/medias/fCUPn8LGMWpytBL2IuBBEd-30.jpg

Or perhaps we can buy out some existing stocks of old East German Air Force uniforms and go from there:

http://www.tridentmilitary.com/New-Photos9/tn21bb.jpg

Of course, we'd have to lose the blue piping...can't have blue...in poor light or at a distance, y'know...

My idea has been to use existing airline aircrew uniforms as a basis...but they're blue...("dark navy")

BLAU IST VERBOTEN!

[lordmonar]

I don't think that blue is forbbidden.

The problem (as I understand it) is that the USAF has a problem with CAP and USAF rank.

I feel that if CAP were to adopt new/different rank insignia then the USAF would not have any problem with us wearing full USAF blues.

But I don't see the rank and file of CAP accepting that.

I really like the idea of using the USAF service coat with a white shirt and (standardized) gray slacks/skirt.

Keep the gray rank slides, keep the gray name tag.

On the field uniform side.

Either keep the BBDU's or move to a solid gray BDU.  Solid Gray will make us sort of USAFish, allow us to use the current ACU/ABU web gear better.

For flight suits...we keep the Green flight bags but removed the rank from the shoulder (keep it on the Leather ACNP).  We keep the green nomex because of the surplus market will allow us to keep costs down.

And CADETS will still wear the current USAF style uniforms (and maybe the ABU's sometime in the future).

Yes cadets and seniors not wearing the same is not "uniformed" but it is a clear and understandable distingction between the two uniforms.

"Why are you in a different uniform then your son?"

"I'm an adult member of CAP and he is a Cadet Member" as opposed to what we have today "I can't make the weight limits and my mustache is too long".

YMMV.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I don't think that blue is forbbidden.

The problem (as I understand it) is that the USAF has a problem with CAP and USAF rank.

I feel that if CAP were to adopt new/different rank insignia then the USAF would not have any problem with us wearing full USAF blues.

But I don't see the rank and file of CAP accepting that.

It's illogical for USAF to have a problem with CAP ranks...they allowed us to use theirs to begin with, and they could just as easily disallow them.

I personally wouldn't have a problem with going to something similar to what Tony McPeak wanted to go to...and, yes, I know it looks Navy/CG/CGAUX!...but maybe with the sleeve rings in light blue (which would look RAF!) or gold (which would look Canadian!).

That way, we could all use the AF Enlisted uniform, which are a lot cheaper, and a lot easier to find surplus/used.

We differ on the issue of grey, sir.  I just think it looks like crap and very un-aviation.

As for the rank and file of CAP accepting or not accepting it...we didn't have much of a choice about other, sillier, things like imposition of the berry boards, loss of metal grade and loss of the CSU.

I sincerely believe that NHQ is scared of its own shadow when it comes to anything that they think will tick off the AF, whether it actually will or not.

[Custer]

BLAU IST VERBOTEN!

http://www.tridentmilitary.com/New-Photos9/pb7b.jpg  They're grey.  I'm SO tempted......