GES requirements to assist public at airshows

[mynetdude]

Located in CAPR 60-3 Section A 1-1 paragraph A

This regulation provides direction for the Civil Air Patrol (CAP) operational mission training, qualification, and actual mission activities. CAP provides services to conduct search and rescue (SAR), disaster relief (DR), Homeland Security (HLS) and other public assistance missions. Many missions are in support of persons in distress and should be conducted competently, expeditiously, and in a professional manner. Proper training, thoroughness, and timeliness cannot be overemphasized.

Bold emphasis mine, which is what the topic is based on.

Assisting at an airshow (other than doing FLM/FLS which obviously requires GES and an AFAM#)

I would guess the only way to be involved at the airshow is to provide education, not assistance then therefore you do not need GES to provide education to the public.

Anybody have any comments as to whether I am wrong or right or how it should further be defined?

[Eclipse]

What's the question?

A lot of airshows are done as "C" missions and therefore need ES quals to participate.

[EMT-83]

There have been several questions posted lately about minimum requirements.

Are there members out there without entry level training, such as Level 1, GES and NIMS? If so, why?

[arajca]

The biggest issue is what are you doing? Manning a recruiting booth? parking cars? marshalling CAP aircraft - marshalling non-CAP aircraft is verbotten. Picking up trash? running communications? Picking your nose?

Each will have different requirements. Recruiting booth - no ES quals needed. Marshalling CAP a/c - FLM/FLS needed.

[mynetdude]

NBB does marshaling of non CAP aircraft

No we will not be doing marshaling until I become FLS qualified. Even so, gotta go through the hoops.

Mainly low level stuff, passive crowd control, directing public, parking cars possibly? I have been with a squadron on a number of occasions that have had cadets help park cars for a non CAP awards dinner that they invited cadets to be part of their awards for previous help that was done.

As far as I know, we'll be manning a CAP booth and probably doing some AE educating to the public.  Our point of contact hasn't informed us the exacts yet.

There are 4 SMs out of 15-20 SMs that are ES qualified either because they are all too new or they are simply not interested anymore. None of our cadets are ES qualified due to time constraints and the fact our DCC thinks the GES 116 in itself is too difficult for cadets to understand (in a way it is as I have seen first hand).

And yes I know there are several threads about this, what kind of bugs me about the search option is it picks up TOO much of everything irrelevant and you can't use two letter words

[Eclipse]

...marshalling non-CAP aircraft is verbotten.

By whom?

If you're qualified and authorized you can direct anything on the ramp.

[Eclipse]

our DCC thinks the GES 116 in itself is too difficult for cadets to understand (in a way it is as I have seen first hand).

If a 25-question, online, open-book test is too difficult for your cadets, they might as well turn in their ID's now.

[SarDragon]

From CAPR 900-5:

7. Air Shows.
a. Prohibited Activities. No unit or member of CAP is authorized to sponsor or cosponsor any air show. CAP members may not:
1) Accept rides in an air show as a part of any official CAP activity.
2) Be used as security guards, or damage control.
3) Taxi non-CAP aircraft before, during, or after an air show.
4) Direct parking of aircraft unless having received training on aircraft marshalling and having a flight line authorization on CAPF 101 or CAPF 101T.

[Pingree1492]

our DCC thinks the GES 116 in itself is too difficult for cadets to understand (in a way it is as I have seen first hand).

If a 25-question, online, open-book test is too difficult for your cadets, they might as well turn in their ID's now.

Then get someone to teach a class, if they're having trouble passing the class on their own.  The most recent one I taught, I didn't have a single cadet fail, and most were getting mid-80s to low-90s (had about 15 or so in the class).

GES contains material that is no more challenging or difficult to understand than the aerospace or leadership tests that the cadets do regularly.  Not quite as interesting, but not more challenging.

[mynetdude]

our DCC thinks the GES 116 in itself is too difficult for cadets to understand (in a way it is as I have seen first hand).

If a 25-question, online, open-book test is too difficult for your cadets, they might as well turn in their ID's now.

The 116 and  IS100 tests aren't that hard, but I don't expect a 12 year old to understand the complex meaning of everything.

[Eclipse]

our DCC thinks the GES 116 in itself is too difficult for cadets to understand (in a way it is as I have seen first hand).

If a 25-question, online, open-book test is too difficult for your cadets, they might as well turn in their ID's now.

The 116 and  IS100 tests aren't that hard, but I don't expect a 12 year old to understand the complex meaning of everything.

Which is why GES isn't a "rating" it's a pre-requisite to begin training, in this case FLM/S.

By the time said 12-year old is qualified, the alien terms should start to have meaning in practical use.

[mynetdude]

our DCC thinks the GES 116 in itself is too difficult for cadets to understand (in a way it is as I have seen first hand).

If a 25-question, online, open-book test is too difficult for your cadets, they might as well turn in their ID's now.

Then get someone to teach a class, if they're having trouble passing the class on their own.  The most recent one I taught, I didn't have a single cadet fail, and most were getting mid-80s to low-90s (had about 15 or so in the class).

GES contains material that is no more challenging or difficult to understand than the aerospace or leadership tests that the cadets do regularly.  Not quite as interesting, but not more challenging.

I've seen cadets pass on their own so I don't disagree I'm not in support of our DCC so it isn't my problem if that is how he chooses to respond to the fact 116/IS100 is too difficult.

[RiverAux]

From CAPR 900-5:

7. Air Shows.

3) Taxi non-CAP aircraft before, during, or after an air show.
4) Direct parking of aircraft unless having received training on aircraft marshalling and having a flight line authorization on CAPF 101 or CAPF 101T.

Aren't these two provisions in direct conflict?  Or are they indirectly saying that CAP members can marshal CAP aircraft at airshows? 

What is the provision exempting blue beret from this rule? 

[SarDragon]

The apparent difference is between taxi and parking. To me, the former implies being in the a/c and "driving" it to a parking spot. The latter implies marshaling.

YMMV.

[RiverAux]

That makes sense, but I can't imagine any circumstance where a CAP member would be in someone else's aircraft and driving it in the first place either at an airshow or anyplace else so didn't even consider that might be what they were going for there. 

[mynetdude]

That makes sense, but I can't imagine any circumstance where a CAP member would be in someone else's aircraft and driving it in the first place either at an airshow or anyplace else so didn't even consider that might be what they were going for there.

Perhaps it is for member owned aircraft not being used for CAP purposes at an air show???

[lordmonar]

That makes sense, but I can't imagine any circumstance where a CAP member would be in someone else's aircraft and driving it in the first place either at an airshow or anyplace else so didn't even consider that might be what they were going for there.

Maybe it is to stop some CAP pilot from talking an airshow participant into allowing him to taxi his plane.  You know how it goes.  "man that Mustange is a sweet ride.....can I have a chance to drive it?"

It probably came from some airshow in the way back where a CAP pilot wrecked someone else's pane.

[davidsinn]

That makes sense, but I can't imagine any circumstance where a CAP member would be in someone else's aircraft and driving it in the first place either at an airshow or anyplace else so didn't even consider that might be what they were going for there.

Valet parking maybe? 

[a2capt]

A member owned aircraft on a CAPF99 is a CAP aircraft. 

What they told us in CAWG is CAP members could not marshall any non CAP aircraft. That puts a stinker in some air show activities, and I'm glad that I got to marshall the B-17 and B-24 before that happened

As for Cadets and GES, I've made "house" (unit) calls several times and taken care of a units worth, and no one fails. Just go over the material. They didn't need helped afterwards. It's open book now, but we still do it mostly "closed" book style.

..and not just cadets, anyone there that wanted GES. I still find that the biggest stumbling block is eServices/WMU for most people. Once we fix that for them.. they hardly call back and stuff stays up to date.

[ßτε]

To all CAWG members:

Just so that this is perfectly clear...CAP members, both senior and cadet, shall NOT under any circumstances marshal non-CAP aircraft.

Thanks,

Ken

Col KW Parris, CAP
CAWG/CC

To all CAWG members:

It appears I was not clear enough before and need to clarify further...in California, CAWG members, both senior and cadet, shall NOT marshal non-CAP aircraft; e.g. aircraft NOT operated by CAP members.  Member-owned aircraft shall be considered CAP aircraft for the purposes of this directive.

Properly qualified and trained CAP members may marshal CAP aircraft and CAP member-owned aircraft when properly supervised.

As the CAWG/CC, I have conducted an ORM analysis of the potential risks versus benefits for CAP marshaling non-CAP aircraft (aircraft other than corporate or member owned).  Since an increasing number of CAP mishaps have been relate to ground handling, especially in CAWG, I cannot in good conscience allow CAP and CAWG to accept the potential liability for mishaps resulting from the marshaling non-CAP aircraft.

This prohibition is in effect in California only and affects only CAWG operations.  Members participating in National Special Activities (e.g. Blue Beret at Oshkosh) shall operate under the direction of the respective activity commander.

Thanks,

Ken

Col KW Parris, CAP
CAWG/CC