Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 26, 2019, 06:53:45 PM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: Confusion over requirements to check out in 182
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: [1] 2  All Send this topic Print
Author Topic: Confusion over requirements to check out in 182  (Read 5896 times)
veritasamo
Newbie

Posts: 1
Unit: GLR-MI-002

« on: March 01, 2010, 06:30:31 AM »

Greetings, all

I'm a new CAP member, a private pilot, instrument rated and finishing up my commercial.  I've got my wings for the 172, and am now working on completing the check out for the 182.

I'm confused over something I've been told, but can't find genuine verification for in the regs, altho I've looked very hard.  It has to do with how many take-offs and landings one must do to complete the checkout.  The regs clearly state that a CAP SOLO pilot must fly 10 hours and complete 25 takeoffs/landings of various types  (CAPR 60-1 3-7.3), but the next section for VFR pilots states only that the pilot 'must be qualified in acccordance with FAA regulations to operate the CAP aircraft flown at the private pilot level or higher and satisfactorily complete a CAPF 5 flight check within the previous 12 calendar months." 

My understanding of a Solo Pilot is that he/she is a cadet under the direct supervision of a CAP instructor and therefore can be anything from a student pilot to a licensed private pilot (but still a cadet). 

To be a VFR pilot, then, one must be a Senior Member of any grade, and one who obviously holds a Pilot certificate.  There is a definite difference in standing between a Solo pilot and a VFR and higher pilot. 

The regs do not state that VFR pilots are required to do the same amount of takeoffs and landings that are required of the Cadet Solo pilot.  I don't find it logical to simply assume what reg 60-1, 3-7.a(3) says of Solo pilots must also apply to 60-1 3-7.b.  All it says in 60-1, Chapter three, is that a minimum of 1 hour and three take-offs and landings are required.

This might seem petty, but I'm being told I must do the 25 to check out in the 182.  that isn't a problem and I'll gladly do them even if just for the practice, but I want to make sure I'm understanding what the regs actually say.  (They seem quite ambivalent and unclear to me)  And I want to make sure that my Check pilot is fully up on current regs.  I did note, in my searching, that the Wing page for New York specified that for checkout in a 182 only three take offs and landings of each type would be required.

Hey, I'm a nerd....  This seeming discrepancy just bothers me and I want it cleared up.  So can anyone point to the definitive reg that spells this out once and for all?  Or is it another case of unclear writing and assumptions?  or is it a case of muddled thinking on my part?  I'm humble; so if I'm stupid, just let me know...!

thanks!
Report to moderator   Logged
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,681

« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2010, 06:40:59 AM »

Welcome to CAP.

To answer your question...it would be best to direct your question to your WING Check Pilot.  What you are looking for is the CAP Form 5 criteria.....which is different then the 60-1 basic criteria that you are looking at.
Report to moderator   Logged
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
rgr84
Recruit

Posts: 26

« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2010, 01:23:04 AM »

Very good question.  I can only tell you how we are handling this situation in our wing.  Cadet solo pilots have specific requirements to operate a C182.  You have stated those.  If you are a Private Pilot and desire to have a sign off in a high performance aircraft, I will give you two options. 

1. In a CAP aircraft, I (we) do not expect anything less than what we expect out of a CAP solo pilot, 25 takeoffs and landings etc.

2. You can rent an aircraft and get a sign off from any CFI once they think you have mastered the high performance aircraft. 

Our latest SM went to a DE and did a high performance checkout in 1.4 hrs with 3 take offs and landings.  He now wants to challenge a Form 5.  He has the sign off and all he has to do is demonstrate the requirements for a Form 5 in 60-1 to me at the Private Pilot level.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 02:23:20 AM by MIKE » Report to moderator   Logged
DG
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 502

« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2010, 03:24:42 AM »

Greetings, all

I'm a new CAP member, a private pilot, instrument rated and finishing up my commercial.  I've got my wings for the 172, and am now working on completing the check out for the 182.

I'm confused over something I've been told, but can't find genuine verification for in the regs, altho I've looked very hard.  It has to do with how many take-offs and landings one must do to complete the checkout.  The regs clearly state that a CAP SOLO pilot must fly 10 hours and complete 25 takeoffs/landings of various types  (CAPR 60-1 3-7.3), but the next section for VFR pilots states only that the pilot 'must be qualified in acccordance with FAA regulations to operate the CAP aircraft flown at the private pilot level or higher and satisfactorily complete a CAPF 5 flight check within the previous 12 calendar months." 

My understanding of a Solo Pilot is that he/she is a cadet under the direct supervision of a CAP instructor and therefore can be anything from a student pilot to a licensed private pilot (but still a cadet). 

To be a VFR pilot, then, one must be a Senior Member of any grade, and one who obviously holds a Pilot certificate.  There is a definite difference in standing between a Solo pilot and a VFR and higher pilot. 

The regs do not state that VFR pilots are required to do the same amount of takeoffs and landings that are required of the Cadet Solo pilot.  I don't find it logical to simply assume what reg 60-1, 3-7.a(3) says of Solo pilots must also apply to 60-1 3-7.b.  All it says in 60-1, Chapter three, is that a minimum of 1 hour and three take-offs and landings are required.

This might seem petty, but I'm being told I must do the 25 to check out in the 182.  that isn't a problem and I'll gladly do them even if just for the practice, but I want to make sure I'm understanding what the regs actually say.  (They seem quite ambivalent and unclear to me)  And I want to make sure that my Check pilot is fully up on current regs.  I did note, in my searching, that the Wing page for New York specified that for checkout in a 182 only three take offs and landings of each type would be required.

Hey, I'm a nerd....  This seeming discrepancy just bothers me and I want it cleared up.  So can anyone point to the definitive reg that spells this out once and for all?  Or is it another case of unclear writing and assumptions?  or is it a case of muddled thinking on my part?  I'm humble; so if I'm stupid, just let me know...!

thanks!


Do you have 100 hours total time?

3-6. Airplane Qualifications. In order to operate certain CAP Airplane models, pilots (other than CAP Solo pilots) must meet one or more of the following requirements:
a. Single Engine Airplane.
(1) High Performance Airplanes 100 hours total time.

Prior versions of 60-1 required a specified minimum PIC time and TO&L in high performance.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 03:34:02 AM by DG » Report to moderator   Logged
PhotogPilot
Member

Posts: 94

« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2010, 05:47:46 PM »

CAP regs confusing? Say it ain't so  ::)
Report to moderator   Logged
Mustang
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 694

« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2010, 08:54:36 AM »

I'm confused over something I've been told, but can't find genuine verification for in the regs, altho I've looked very hard.  It has to do with how many take-offs and landings one must do to complete the checkout.  .....

This might seem petty, but I'm being told I must do the 25 to check out in the 182. 
You can't find it in the regs because it isn't in them anymore. Whoever is telling you you need 25 takeoffs and landings is citing the requirements of the "old" 60-1, which haven't been in effect for 14 months now.

To be checked out in a C-182 under the current rules, one must:

  • be a CAP member (either cadet or senior member, but not CSM, AEM, Patron, or Retired)
  • hold an FAA Private Pilot certificate with airplane single engine land privileges (para. 3-7b)
  • hold a valid Third Class medical certificate (or higher) (para. 3-7b)
  • have 100 hours total flight time (para. 3-6a(1))
  • complete a CAP Form 5 checkout (para. 3-7b)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 10:28:35 AM by Mustang » Report to moderator   Logged
"Amateurs train until they get it right; Professionals train until they cannot get it wrong. "

DG
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 502

« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2010, 02:19:33 PM »

I'm confused over something I've been told, but can't find genuine verification for in the regs, altho I've looked very hard.  It has to do with how many take-offs and landings one must do to complete the checkout.  .....

This might seem petty, but I'm being told I must do the 25 to check out in the 182. 
You can't find it in the regs because it isn't in them anymore. Whoever is telling you you need 25 takeoffs and landings is citing the requirements of the "old" 60-1, which haven't been in effect for 14 months now.

To be checked out in a C-182 under the current rules, one must:

  • be a CAP member (either cadet or senior member, but not CSM, AEM, Patron, or Retired)
  • hold an FAA Private Pilot certificate with airplane single engine land privileges (para. 3-7b)
  • hold a valid Third Class medical certificate (or higher) (para. 3-7b)
  • have 100 hours total flight time (para. 3-6a(1))
  • complete a CAP Form 5 checkout (para. 3-7b)



...AND hold an FAA High Performance Endorsement.
Report to moderator   Logged
Mustang
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 694

« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2010, 04:44:15 PM »

...AND hold an FAA High Performance Endorsement.

Correct.  Mea culpa for the omission.
Report to moderator   Logged
"Amateurs train until they get it right; Professionals train until they cannot get it wrong. "

Flying Pig
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,043

« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2010, 05:20:07 PM »

However, your form 5 will will/can qualify you for your HP endorsement if you dont have one.    Just make sure your Check Pilot knows you are looking for a sign off. 
Report to moderator   Logged
a2capt
300,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,089
Unit: pǝʇɹǝʌuı

« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2010, 05:34:00 PM »

..and if they cite the old rules as still being in effect, you're fighting GOB blockage.

Some units claim field "uniqueness" as to why not just everyone can fly "their" aircraft.

Just make a note that all deviations to the regulations have to be approved from higher authority, and that includes those setting more stringent regulations.

Besides, if a check pilot is citing old revisions of the regs to me, do I really want to be using them as my mentor, my go to, my examiner? When it's quite obvious they are not up to current on the regs in the first place?
Report to moderator   Logged
blackrain
Seasoned Member

Posts: 297

« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2010, 06:21:34 PM »

However, your form 5 will will/can qualify you for your HP endorsement if you dont have one.    Just make sure your Check Pilot knows you are looking for a sign off.

Does the check pilot have to be a CFI to give an HP sign-off?
Report to moderator   Logged
"If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly" PVT Murphy
heliodoc
Suspended

Posts: 945

« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2010, 06:31:59 PM »

I will second a2capt

Prior to being in CAP I got my High Performance endorsement with a civilian FAA approved CFI

CAP ought not be any different.  If the GOB's are NOT up on their own regs....DO NOT fly with them

If they do not know CAP regs...how are they on their FAA Parts 1, 23, 61, 71, 91, 121, NTSB 830 series, AIM Chap 1-5 and Chaps 7 and 8?

Get into the FAA FAR's ..... show it to THEM ( the CAP "CFI's") and then apply CAP regs

Otherwise if you have the dinero...go out and get it a with a civilian CFI get it in the logbook and then work with the offending CAP CFI

He even MIGHT learn something from YOU......If not look elsewhere in CAP until the knucklehead is UP on both CAP and FAA regs!!! ::) ::)
Report to moderator   Logged
τε
Global Moderator

Posts: 804
Unit: PCR-CA-205

« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2010, 07:57:07 PM »

Does the check pilot have to be a CFI to give an HP sign-off?

Of course. But a check pilot has to be a CFI to be a check pilot as well.
Report to moderator   Logged
blackrain
Seasoned Member

Posts: 297

« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2010, 08:21:08 PM »

Does the check pilot have to be a CFI to give an HP sign-off?

Of course. But a check pilot has to be a CFI to be a check pilot as well.

OK Thanks didn't know that ALL check pilots had to be CFIs. I thought only certain wings had that requirement.
Report to moderator   Logged
"If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly" PVT Murphy
DG
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 502

« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2010, 09:52:44 PM »

Does the check pilot have to be a CFI to give an HP sign-off?

Of course. But a check pilot has to be a CFI to be a check pilot as well.


And as a CFI and a CAP Check Pilot, she will know that she as the CFI is performing this service without insurance.

The FAA High Performance endorsement is not provided for in CAPR 60-1.

Accordingly, the FAA High Performance endorsement is not covered by CAP insurance.

As a technicality, it is nowhere authorized as part of the CAP flight.
Report to moderator   Logged
Flying Pig
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,043

« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2010, 11:11:36 PM »

All CAP check pilots have to be CFI's.  Its Form 91 check pilots that do not have to be CFI's.  However, in CAWG and a few other wings, they require F91 check pilots to be CFIs also.
Report to moderator   Logged
Mustang
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 694

« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2010, 03:52:44 PM »

However, your form 5 will will/can qualify you for your HP endorsement if you dont have one.    Just make sure your Check Pilot knows you are looking for a sign off.
I disagree.  Instruction is not to be given as part of a checkride, and a properly-done high performance endorsement requires a fair bit of ground and flight instruction.
Report to moderator   Logged
"Amateurs train until they get it right; Professionals train until they cannot get it wrong. "

Mustang
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 694

« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2010, 03:55:06 PM »

Does the check pilot have to be a CFI to give an HP sign-off?

Of course. But a check pilot has to be a CFI to be a check pilot as well.


And as a CFI and a CAP Check Pilot, she will know that she as the CFI is performing this service without insurance.

The FAA High Performance endorsement is not provided for in CAPR 60-1.

Accordingly, the FAA High Performance endorsement is not covered by CAP insurance.

As a technicality, it is nowhere authorized as part of the CAP flight.
Not sure where you're coming from here.  CAP instructor pilots are certainly authorized to give all the instruction required by Part 61.31(f), just not as part of a CAPF 5 checkride. 
Report to moderator   Logged
"Amateurs train until they get it right; Professionals train until they cannot get it wrong. "

DG
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 502

« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2010, 06:31:24 PM »


And as a CFI and a CAP Check Pilot, she will know that she as the CFI is performing this service without insurance.

The FAA High Performance endorsement is not provided for in CAPR 60-1.

Accordingly, the FAA High Performance endorsement is not covered by CAP insurance.

As a technicality, it is nowhere authorized as part of the CAP flight.
Not sure where you're coming from here.  CAP instructor pilots are certainly authorized to give all the instruction required by Part 61.31(f), just not as part of a CAPF 5 checkride.


CAP's mission is to take pilots who are properly qualified and current and check them out in CAP airplanes to fly CAP missions.

As some have said, CAP is not a flying club existing for the benefit of the pilot.

Any CAP Aircraft or CAP CFI operation properly requires formal, specific authorization in CAPR 60-1.

In the absence of such authorization, CAP insurance does not apply.  And a whole host of other negative consequences can arise.  Most of which can make for a bad day.

CAPR 60-1 Section 2-8 authorizes Pilot Training as follows:
a. CAP cadets and qualified SAR/DR mission pilots are authorized to use CAP airplanes for flight instruction toward any FAA certificate or rating.
b. All CAP members are authorized to use CAP gliders for flight instruction toward any FAA certificate or rating.
c. CAP senior members that are not current SAR/DR mission pilots must obtain permission to receive flight instruction in CAP airplanes toward FAA certificates or ratings as follows:
(1) Senior members who hold a Private Pilot Airplane Certificate or higher and have been an active CAP member for at least 1 year Wing commander written permission.
(2) All other senior members Written permission from the wing commander, region commander and the CAP Executive Director is required and may be granted provided the members lives more than two hours driving time from a commercial training facility.

Nothing provides for or authorizes a CFI giving an "FAA endorsement" for high performance.  Where the CFI is acting as an evaluating check pilot for the FAA.  Same with an FAA IPC.  So if a CFI attests to the ability of a pilot for an FAA high performance endorsement, or an FAA complex endorsement, or an FAA IPC as to instrument ability, show me where it is formally, specifically authorized in 60-1.  If it is not authorized in 60-1, it is not covered by CAP insurance.

Same with an FAA Flight Review, required every two years.  But there, the CFI is only attesting that a certain time amount of instruction was given, not that the pilot has demonstrated an FAA required level of performance.
 

« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 06:36:48 PM by DG » Report to moderator   Logged
heliodoc
Suspended

Posts: 945

« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2010, 07:13:03 PM »

^^^^

Flight Reviews are done according to the requirements of 61.56 where a minimum of 1 hour of ground and 1 hour flight is stated.

Para a(2) says a review of those maneuvers and procedures, that, at the discretion of the person giving the review, are necessary for the pilot to demonstrate the safe exercise of the privileges of the pilot certificate.  Most cases, no different than a Form 5

Last time I checked the Form 5 was no more special than flight review only on a yearly basis. Proficiency flying up to the Form 5 is no different than a FAA Flight Review.  The airspace reqs for the NAS, Parts 61, 91 ,etc are not specifically covered in 60-1.  CAP depends on the FAR's and those are the items that are covered for flying in the National Airspace System not the CAP Airspace system.  The big difference is ... the spatterings and splatterings of 60-1 specific knowledge that is regurgitated by the Form 5 applicant to the Form 5 Check Pilot

This is where the CAP argument  "CAP CFI specific authorization" is sorely lacking.  Last time I checked, CAP 60-1 Para 3-7(e).......Instructor endorsement on a Form 5.....by CAP Instructor pilot."  was a FAA CFI before one was even a CAP CFI.

So in the 60-1 there is NO specifics spelled out as to be a CFI as there is a definite spelling out of how FAA approved CFI is awarded.  There is NO special course that is spelled out in 60-1 as there is in becoming a FAA certified CFI which is, from what I have heard, could be a marathon 2 day event to include demonstrating lesson plans, general 61 / 91, etc knowledge and a ride with a DPE or FAA designated examiner

Never heard YET, how intensive, a CAP Instructor Pilot (CFI) course is meted out or how stringent it really is..

Haven't seen that on NHQ Stan Eval website or even a Wing website, leading me to believe that being a CAP CFI is not more difficult or more stringent than a FAA exam..

Where as the FAA requires a every 2 year FIRC, where is THAT defined in 60-1for CAP CFI's, huh?.   The argument that CAP Form 5's are more specific and more in depth just does not hold water.

So it is to everyone's benefit to get the HP endorsement with FAA certified CFI (which may be in CAP >:D >:D >:D) before joining CAP, then you come armed with it already and ready for a Form 5  ride for the 182, with hopefully, no questions or CAP interpretation to muddle up already what is established for HP

Report to moderator   Logged
Pages: [1] 2  All Send this topic Print 
CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: Confusion over requirements to check out in 182
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.14 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.06 seconds with 26 queries.
click here to email me