Quote from: Spaceman3750 on February 04, 2012, 11:39:02 PMI'll let you and Eclipse fight this one out and in the meantime I'll go back to working on building the ES capability of my group with what we already have.

Hey!  You think 14K is going to make itself?!

QuoteFurthermore, we need to be fostering relationships with outside organizations, not breaking them down because "we can do it better than you can".

Well, if the "relationship" consists our members paying them money to do stuff for us.....

I got nothing against the ARC and AHA......and I got nothing against the SQTR telling us to get first aid training.

I am certainly not suggesting we reinvent the wheel.

We already have seveal first aid tasks in our GT SQTRs.  Why not add a few more?  We can use the BSA merit badge book for the task guide information.

Pros:
it speeds up our taining because we can do it all in house.
We tailor the tasks and first aid information based on our needs and our paradymns.
It standadises the training.  Everyone trains from the same book, with the same standards.
It makes recertifiying easier.

Cons:
It can cost anywhere from $10 to $70 for a course.
There is confusion about what course is acceptable.  ARC, AHA, BSA, SABC, CERT, First Responder, Wilderness First aid and a whole host of other certifing agencies.

I don't care one way or the other....but when we talk about spending man power and money......I would like to spend a few peoples time and money instead of asking each and everyone of our members to spend theirs every 2-3 years.

Especially when you consider all the restrictions we place on when our members can give aid anyway it makes no sense to worry too much about what organization is certifying their training. 

ECSI has a BSA wilderness first aid course/training materials too.  I like the ECSI wildernes course specifically because it has 3 length options 8/16/32 depending on how indepth of a course you need. All come form the same book and instructor kit... ie you can tailor it to what your team/group really needs.

mk

Quote from: sarmed1 on February 05, 2012, 03:12:51 AM
ECSI has a BSA wilderness first aid course/training materials too.  I like the ECSI wildernes course specifically because it has 3 length options 8/16/32 depending on how indepth of a course you need. All come form the same book and instructor kit... ie you can tailor it to what your team/group really needs.

mk

We are interested in getting a few of us in our squadron qualified as ECSI instructors, 2 EMTs and an RN. How difficult is the cert process?

Quote from: GroundHawg on February 05, 2012, 04:51:15 PM

Quote from: sarmed1 on February 05, 2012, 03:12:51 AM
ECSI has a BSA wilderness first aid course/training materials too.  I like the ECSI wildernes course specifically because it has 3 length options 8/16/32 depending on how indepth of a course you need. All come form the same book and instructor kit... ie you can tailor it to what your team/group really needs.

mk

We are interested in getting a few of us in our squadron qualified as ECSI instructors, 2 EMTs and an RN. How difficult is the cert process?

A perfect example of the problem--- it seems to me that a lot of the first aid training given to CAP members is by CAP members who are also certified by some other organization.  Now, some claim that if a CAP member were teaching first aid tasks as part of the CAP ES program that they would be more likely to pencil whip their students through.  Just what is stopping these dual-hatted CAP members from doing it now? 

How are we any better off by having them spend time getting certified by some other agency?  Those that are not going to teach to standard are going to do it no matter what organization prints out the little card.  They're still quite likely to be the same CAP member that will be teaching how to do line searches at the next meeting. 

I tend to trust our members to do things right, but if they're not, give them the boot.

+1

Quote from: GroundHawg on February 05, 2012, 04:51:15 PM
We are interested in getting a few of us in our squadron qualified as ECSI instructors, 2 EMTs and an RN. How difficult is the cert process?

Very easy.  The web site pretty much takes you thru step by step.  Register as a training institute; wait for approval, I see that now it says it requires you to buy 1 teaching package (thats new) the next step is having  your folks get set up as instructors; it is easiest if someone has some kind of teaching certification from another organization (medical ones are best ie AHA, ARC, NSC....I dont know if "CAP" creds will get you all the way thru..... if they dont they have to go thru an instructor development course (which once you have one instructor they can run that course for any other prospective instructors) I would have to check with my TC guy but I think they are the approval for all future instructor receprocities for their TC...rather than ECI (so if you are comfortable with CAP as thier only teaching experience its up to you to say yay or nay)

after that you set the course up online, submit the paprer work and issue cards...ECSI makes thier money vai the sales of the course items via Jones and Bartlet pulishing

mk

Other organizations can be just as guilty of pencil-whipping people, too. The outside first aid class that I took recently was a complete waste of time. No hands-on skills, no test - and we all received an AHA first aid card at the end. If I wasn't in EMT training right now, I would feel the need to take it over again somewhere else just to learn the skills needed for GTM. At least if it's done internally we have a little control over it.

Quote from: RiverAux on February 05, 2012, 06:02:09 PMA perfect example of the problem--- it seems to me that a lot of the first aid training given to CAP members is by CAP members who are also certified by some other organization.  Now, some claim that if a CAP member were teaching first aid tasks as part of the CAP ES program that they would be more likely to pencil whip their students through.  Just what is stopping these dual-hatted CAP members from doing it now? 

Well, for starters there's integrity.

But beyond that, they also risk their personal certification with the sanctioning body they work for, not to mention the liability of a death caused by the whipping of a first aid card.

As a motorcycle safety instructor, I am perfectly capable and competent to teach my next door neighbor, friends, or family how to ride, however the
program specifically prohibits me from doing that, and I'm not about to risk my certification and my house for the convenience of someone who can't be bothered to do things the right way.

And why can't we have that with CAP organic insturctors?

Quote from: lordmonar on February 05, 2012, 08:08:14 PM
And why can't we have that with CAP organic insturctors?

I don't think anyone said we couldn't, the issue being that NHQ (and likely the legal directorate), is not interested in creating and maintaining
an internal curriculum when it is simple for people to get this training externally.

We could, theoretically train pilots, too, (we do it with cadets, now), but it's just not something CAP needs to bother with.

Quote from: Eclipse on February 05, 2012, 08:38:46 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on February 05, 2012, 08:08:14 PM
And why can't we have that with CAP organic insturctors?

I don't think anyone said we couldn't, the issue being that NHQ (and likely the legal directorate), is not interested in creating and maintaining
an internal curriculum when it is simple for people to get this training externally.

We could, theoretically train pilots, too, (we do it with cadets, now), but it's just not something CAP needs to bother with.

Hey if our members know how to read perhaps they could just carry this "The Pocket First Aid Field Guide" ($9.95 at Cabelas).
  OR try this: "First Aid Pocket Guide"
http://catalog.blr.com/product.cfm/product/20300600 $4.74 each if 10-24 are bought, higher quantities get additional discounts.

OR even the American Red Cross Pocket Guide for $2.95
http://www.redcrossstore.org/Shopper/Product.aspx?UniqueItemId=514&ViewSource=Category

RM

QuoteBut beyond that, they also risk their personal certification with the sanctioning body they work for, not to mention the liability of a death caused by the whipping of a first aid card.

Wouldn't the same be true if they taught direct pressure as a CAP instructor? 

Keep in mind that CAP is going to be on the hook if a CAP member really messes up basic first aid whether they were certified by the Red Cross or CAP since they would be doing it as a CAP member anyway. 

If anything, I'd think CAP would be better able to protect itself by making sure that the skills are taught by CAP members. 

I pinged the KB and asked whether First Aid expires, the answer came from John Desmaris

"Members are expected to stay current when first aid training is required, but currently ops quals does not enforce that.  We expect that will be addressed in future revisions to Ops Quals."

Is that not posted on the KB yet?

Quote from: Ed Bos on February 07, 2012, 02:29:19 AM
Is that not posted on the KB yet?

I don't know that it will be - it was a direct question, which was then referred to and answered by John.  Do those get posted?

It doesn't have a KB ID, but that's the direct quote from the response.

I presume those are what get eventually posted, but that answers my question. Thanks.

I've asked 3 or 4 questions of the KB in the past, none of which had existing answers, and they never posted their responses to the KB.  Figured if they take the time to write it they would take the time to post it.