Were those AFROTC Unit Commanders aware that doing so would be in violation of CAP Regulations?   If they were, I doubt they'd make the request.

Quote from: Earhart1971 on February 13, 2010, 05:39:46 AM
I have been in the Air Force, I have spent many hours with AFROTC both Junior and Senior. I have known all the past Commanders of the subject Unit.  They want Cadets to come in UNIFORM.  I have sent Cadets to AFROTC and 3 to the Academy.  All of them went to the selection boards in UNIFORM.  All of them got to where they wanted to go. CAP Cadets have an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE and I want to make sure that is always the case.

I assume you have a point, although I don't really care what it is. That aside, you've only indicated that one location prefers it. That's not a policy.

The question was: Is that an established policy for AFROTC? It's a yes or no question. If it is, many here would like to see the reference, myself included.

Quote from: JROB on January 23, 2010, 04:45:53 PM
I have a cadet who is going to an interview for an AFROTC scholarship. Would wearing of the blue service uniform be appropriate?

YES.  After reading posts here I agree.....get your Commanders approval, but I see no detrimental harm to CAP should a Cadet wear the uniform to an Air Force interview.

There are a lot of things that CAP members can do that wouldn't be detrimental to CAP that might still go against CAP regulations. 

Quote from: RiverAux on February 13, 2010, 09:39:14 PM
There are a lot of things that CAP members can do that wouldn't be detrimental to CAP that might still go against CAP regulations.

Like:


1.  Wearing it to school, work, or while shopping - great recruiting tool!

2.  Wearing it on a job interview - shows dedication and purpose to a potential employer, and the bling can't hurt!

3.  Wearing it to a costume party - it's the best costume ever, you already own it!   And hey, people dress up as policemen and firemen, right?


Harmless, perhaps; but 39-1 says that it can't be worn then, and also says "COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY".   


It doesn't matter if it "won't harm" CAP or if your Commander (wrongly) approves it.   An AFROTC interview is NOT a permitted occasion to wear the CAP uniform regardless of what AFROTC might think or how well it might improve your chances. 

Honestly, if you can't follow this regulation (or simply choose to ignore it), why would anyone expect you to obey other regulations?   If I were the AFROTC interviewer and knew that you were wearing it against regs, you would have just shot yourself in the foot.

If you'll notice prior posts I have been one of the ones saying that it shouldn't be worn because I don't believe it is an  CAP activity.  I did not say that because it wasn't detrimental that the regulation can be ignored.

Quote from: RiverAux on February 14, 2010, 02:18:00 PM
If you'll notice prior posts I have been one of the ones saying that it shouldn't be worn because I don't believe it is an  CAP activity.  I did not say that because it wasn't detrimental that the regulation can be ignored.

Sorry, RiverAux, I was adding to your post, not implying you specifically.  The "you" was generic.   I guess I should have made it more obvious. 

Quote from: RiverAux on February 13, 2010, 09:39:14 PM
There are a lot of things that CAP members can do that wouldn't be detrimental to CAP that might still go against CAP regulations.

Its not necessary but a SQUADRON COMMANDER can decide, that a Cadet can wear the uniform, you guys can split hairs on regs.

Quote from: Hawk200 on February 13, 2010, 06:23:58 AM

Quote from: Earhart1971 on February 13, 2010, 05:39:46 AM
I have been in the Air Force, I have spent many hours with AFROTC both Junior and Senior. I have known all the past Commanders of the subject Unit.  They want Cadets to come in UNIFORM.  I have sent Cadets to AFROTC and 3 to the Academy.  All of them went to the selection boards in UNIFORM.  All of them got to where they wanted to go. CAP Cadets have an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE and I want to make sure that is always the case.

I assume you have a point, although I don't really care what it is. That aside, you've only indicated that one location prefers it. That's not a policy.

The question was: Is that an established policy for AFROTC? It's a yes or no question. If it is, many here would like to see the reference, myself included.

Typical CAP TALK NET SPLIT HAIRS!

When I was a cadet, back in the stone age, I was asked to wear my uniform to school when being interviewed for an AFROTC scholarship.  I think, for something like this, uniform wear is appropriate; especially if CAP is part of the reason you got there.  And yes, you better look "squared away".

We sat through a AFROTC Presentation with my Cadets in UNIFORM! AFROTC is not just an enroll and take the course kind of thing now, its getting more like the up or out. The funnel gets narrower, they cut people out of the program that cannot perform. It's now becoming more  difficult to get an AFROTC Scholarship or even take the course. I assume the economy and job outlook has a lot to do with it.

At the two year point, there are 40 slots for their 4 Week Summer Training, they might have 60 AFROTC 2 Year Cadets applying. Only the best make the cut.

Those that do not make the cut, have to spend an entire year extra in College in hopes of going to the next Summer Training.

Yes, if I have CAP Cadets, that have been in MY CAP PROGRAM, I want them in UNIFORM, whenever they present themselves to the AIR FORCE either Academy Selection Board or AFROTC. Yes, I want my 4 year Cadet in CAP selected over a student off the street that comes in and suddenly has decided he might want to be an Air Force Officer.

The Air Force is looking for pushy type A Cadets. 

Quote from: Earhart1971 on February 14, 2010, 06:22:51 PM

Quote from: RiverAux on February 13, 2010, 09:39:14 PM
There are a lot of things that CAP members can do that wouldn't be detrimental to CAP that might still go against CAP regulations.

Its not necessary but a SQUADRON COMMANDER can decide, that a Cadet can wear the uniform, you guys can split hairs on regs.

OK, I'll bite. (sigh)


Please cite the non-hair-split regulation that states that a Commander can authorize uniform wear at a non-CAP activity.

Quote from: FW on February 14, 2010, 06:54:50 PM
When I was a cadet, back in the stone age, I was asked to wear my uniform to school when being interviewed for an AFROTC scholarship.  I think, for something like this, uniform wear is appropriate; especially if CAP is part of the reason you got there.  And yes, you better look "squared away".

Appropriate: Yes.

Helpful; increases your chances: Yes

Against regulations: Yes


The regulations don't have a clause that permits us to violate them when we deem it "appropriate" to do so.     'Cause if that's the case, then maybe I should decide that it's "appropriate" to wear my uniform on this base here in Iraq.    At least I could make the craptastic argument that I am "visiting a military facility" IAW 39-1.   Or maybe it's "appropriate' for me to head to a crash site by myself, because I'm a trained GT member and I should impress my commander with my GT knowledge.    Obviously, once we decide to violate one reg, it gets easier to find it "appropriate" to do so whenever the mood strikes.

To knowingly violate a regulation yourself is to display a lack of integrity.    To encourage someone else to do it is inexcusable.

Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 14, 2010, 07:45:18 PM

Quote from: Earhart1971 on February 14, 2010, 06:22:51 PM

Quote from: RiverAux on February 13, 2010, 09:39:14 PM
There are a lot of things that CAP members can do that wouldn't be detrimental to CAP that might still go against CAP regulations.

Its not necessary but a SQUADRON COMMANDER can decide, that a Cadet can wear the uniform, you guys can split hairs on regs.

OK, I'll bite. (sigh)


Please cite the non-hair-split regulation that states that a Commander can authorize uniform wear at a non-CAP activity.

Please cite the regs where it says a CAP officer or cadet can use their eyes to see, legs to walk and car to drive?  My point is that some people can take the "exclusivity" of the regs too far.

Quote from: Earhart1971 on February 14, 2010, 06:24:03 PM

Quote from: Hawk200 on February 13, 2010, 06:23:58 AM

Quote from: Earhart1971 on February 13, 2010, 05:39:46 AM
I have been in the Air Force, I have spent many hours with AFROTC both Junior and Senior. I have known all the past Commanders of the subject Unit.  They want Cadets to come in UNIFORM.  I have sent Cadets to AFROTC and 3 to the Academy.  All of them went to the selection boards in UNIFORM.  All of them got to where they wanted to go. CAP Cadets have an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE and I want to make sure that is always the case.

I assume you have a point, although I don't really care what it is. That aside, you've only indicated that one location prefers it. That's not a policy.

The question was: Is that an established policy for AFROTC? It's a yes or no question. If it is, many here would like to see the reference, myself included.

Typical CAP TALK NET SPLIT HAIRS!

And typical response showing a complete lack of ethics. Not answering a straightforward question is the first indicator that you know full well it's wrong.

This is the perfect example of why our organization has problems. Too many people in it have the idea of "Rules apply to everyone but me!".

Call it hair splitting, but when a publication says what you can do, and you do something that it doesn't say you can, then you are wrong. Ethically, morally, and possibly legally. Denial does not alter the facts.

As Themann put up before, active membership and accomplishments are more important than showing off. The accomplishments on the resume speak for themselves. Appearance speaks for itself, regardless of what you are wearing. Someone wearing the wrinkled shirt, coat with lint on it, pants too tight or short, and dirty shoes has already shown their lack of dedication. If you're hanging your hopes on just the uniform getting you in, then you've got some identity issues.

Quote from: Major Carrales on February 14, 2010, 07:56:46 PMPlease cite the regs where it says a CAP officer or cadet can use their eyes to see, legs to walk and car to drive?  My point is that some people can take the "exclusivity" of the regs too far.

I can see the point, but that's a slippery slope. "Well, it's alright this time", can turn into things that are always "alright", when they're against regs. It gets to a point where pubs get ignored completely "just this once" all of the time. Where do we draw the line? The easiest place to draw the line is where the pub says so.

I can understand things "in the spirit" of the reg, but this is not a case of in the spirit. The manual says "CAP activities" not "any activity with any form of relation to the Air Force".

Do I think it would be a good idea to allow the wear to these type of functions? Sure. It doesn't mean I have the latitude to do so. The smart thing to do is to get it changed to allow it. If it's a good idea, then it should be added to the pub, and probably wouldn't be all that difficult to do.

It's difficult to tell someone in the future that we need to follow a publication when you already allowed an instance of violating them. What kind of example does it set? It's a bad example that shouldn't have been set in the first place.

Rest of the posts are for HAIR SPLITTERS. The people that really want to run OFF A CLIFF reading or interpreting the REGS ;>.

Quote from: Earhart1971 on February 14, 2010, 08:58:17 PM
Rest of the posts are for HAIR SPLITTERS. The people that really want to run OFF A CLIFF reading or interpreting the REGS ;>.

Regulations are all about hair splitting.  Same with the law.  Its usually best to both try to follow the intent as well as the letter of the law. 

Quote from: Earhart1971 on February 14, 2010, 07:17:39 PM
We sat through a AFROTC Presentation with my Cadets in UNIFORM! AFROTC is not just an enroll and take the course kind of thing now, its getting more like the up or out. The funnel gets narrower, they cut people out of the program that cannot perform. It's now becoming more  difficult to get an AFROTC Scholarship or even take the course. I assume the economy and job outlook has a lot to do with it.

At the two year point, there are 40 slots for their 4 Week Summer Training, they might have 60 AFROTC 2 Year Cadets applying. Only the best make the cut.

Those that do not make the cut, have to spend an entire year extra in College in hopes of going to the next Summer Training.

Yes, if I have CAP Cadets, that have been in MY CAP PROGRAM, I want them in UNIFORM, whenever they present themselves to the AIR FORCE either Academy Selection Board or AFROTC. Yes, I want my 4 year Cadet in CAP selected over a student off the street that comes in and suddenly has decided he might want to be an Air Force Officer.

The Air Force is looking for pushy type A Cadets.

I've been in CAP for 10 years (8 at the time) and didn't wear my uniform to my OTS interview.

Didn't really need to, either - my CAP experience was right there on my applicant profile, and we ended up talking about it in the interview.

Quote from: Earhart1971 on February 14, 2010, 08:58:17 PM
Rest of the posts are for HAIR SPLITTERS. The people that really want to run OFF A CLIFF reading or interpreting the REGS ;>.

Denial doesn't change facts. Calling others names does not change facts. If you don't want to be told you're doing wrong, there's an easy way to solve it. Do the right thing.

The manuals says "for CAP activities". AFROTC is not a CAP activity. Wearing a uniform there is a violation of our publications. It's not hair splitting, it's following properly put forth publication. Calling it otherwise is denying the truth.