Quote from: RiverAux on January 27, 2010, 08:44:29 PM

QuoteIf you can't grasp the mentorship and leadership factor in something as simple as this

It has nothing at all to do with that but CAP regulations which allow very limited leeway for wear of CAP uniforms outside of CAP events.

So, under the same rules would you argue Col. Boyd wearing the uniform at the presidential inauguration was in violation of policy?

Are you kidding me?

Quote from: desertengineer1 on January 27, 2010, 11:57:27 PM

Quote from: RiverAux on January 27, 2010, 08:44:29 PM

QuoteIf you can't grasp the mentorship and leadership factor in something as simple as this

It has nothing at all to do with that but CAP regulations which allow very limited leeway for wear of CAP uniforms outside of CAP events.

So, under the same rules would you argue Col. Boyd wearing the uniform at the presidential inauguration was in violation of policy?

Are you kidding me?

OMG you actually did.

I got nothin.....

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=7057.40

Quote from: RiverAux on January 24, 2010, 04:30:25 PM
Wear of the CAP uniform is not a matter of personal choice, it is a matter subject to CAP regulation.  This is not a CAP activity and the wear of the uniform would violate CAP regulations.

I find it interesting you argue this here, but on the thread with Col. Boyd you say:

"The question is whether or not this was an official CAP activity -- that is what controls whether the CAP uniform can be worn.  If he was invited to the inauguration as a private individual and then decided on his own to wear the CAP uniform, it would violate CAP regulations.  If he got permission from the appropriate commander to wear his uniform for the public relations value, that would be fine. "

You, sir, are officially Troll Busted.

Huh?  Same position -- if it is a CAP activity you are supposed to wear the uniform, if it is not a CAP activity it depends on exactly why you are going and whether or not you have permission from your commander to wear the uniform.  As I said in that other thread, if Col. Boyd was invited specifically to represent CAP at the inauguration it is totally appropriate to wear the uniform.  If he was going as an individual he could not decide on his own to wear the uniform, but might if the appropriate command level approved it. 

In this case, it is definetely not a CAP activity so the cadet cannot decide on their own to wear the uniform.  However, if the cadet got permission from his squadron commander, he would be ok as far as the regulations go.  Now, the squadron commander could potentially get in trouble for granting such permission if someone made an issue of it (unlikely in this case).

This falls in the area of commander's discretion.  Some folks are going to be a lot stricter about giving such permission than others. 

You originally argued for commander's approval, but didn't acknowledge almost all posters noting such here, and just judged this as being "not authorized".  You just want to cause trouble.

Troll Bust...

Hmm, I said several times in this thread that this wasn't a CAP activity and I also said this:

Quote from: RiverAux on January 24, 2010, 04:56:34 PM
If there is any gray area about it, get your commander involved and let him/her make the call. 

Really not sure how arguing in favor of following regulations or asking your commander for specific approval if something is in a gray area is causing trouble. 

I get the impression that some folks here do not (want to) read the regs.


There is no way that a college/AFROTC interview can be construed as a CAP activity.

For it to be a CAP Activity, it would have to be overseen/run by someone in CAP like any other activity.   For it to be a CAP activity involving a Cadet, an approved Senior Member with CPPT would have to be present (and that SM would have to be in uniform).    If the Cadet were injured during the interview or travelling to or from it, would the Cadet be covered by CAP insurance?  If not, it's not a CAP activity. 

AFROTC is NOT a Cadet Program.   If you think it is, re-read CAPR 52-16.   Such programs are "complementary and mutually supporting". 


You can wear the CAP Uniform when:

1. Participating in or conducting the Cadet Program. 

2. Flying in CAP aircraft.

3. Engaged in normal CAP duties or attending CAP functions

4. Visiting military installations

5. Attending social activities or dinners on military installations

...And that's it.


Oh, and the Unit Commander's feelings on the matter are irrelevant.   If it's not on the list above, wear of the uniform is not authorized.  Period.

If you still think it is permissible under regulations to wear the CAP uniform to the interview, (here's the favorite CAPTALK phrase) cite, please.

Quote from: JoeTomasone on January 30, 2010, 06:49:27 PM
You can wear the CAP Uniform when:

1. Participating in or conducting the Cadet Program. 

2. Flying in CAP aircraft.

3. Engaged in normal CAP duties or attending CAP functions

4. Visiting military installations

5. Attending social activities or dinners on military installations

...And that's it.

Oh, and the Unit Commander's feelings on the matter are irrelevant.   If it's not on the list above, wear of the uniform is not authorized.  Period.

Does the AFROTC detachment's office where the interview is held qualify as a military installation?

Interesting question.

Joe brings up an interesting point regarding senior member supervision. 

Quote from: cdk77 on January 30, 2010, 11:25:31 PMDoes the AFROTC detachment's office where the interview is held qualify as a military installation?

Doubt it.

Quote from: JoeTomasone on January 30, 2010, 06:49:27 PM
I get the impression that some folks here do not (want to) read the regs.


There is no way that a college/AFROTC interview can be construed as a CAP activity.

For it to be a CAP Activity, it would have to be overseen/run by someone in CAP like any other activity.   For it to be a CAP activity involving a Cadet, an approved Senior Member with CPPT would have to be present (and that SM would have to be in uniform).    If the Cadet were injured during the interview or travelling to or from it, would the Cadet be covered by CAP insurance?  If not, it's not a CAP activity. 

AFROTC is NOT a Cadet Program.   If you think it is, re-read CAPR 52-16.   Such programs are "complementary and mutually supporting". 


You can wear the CAP Uniform when:

1. Participating in or conducting the Cadet Program. 

2. Flying in CAP aircraft.

3. Engaged in normal CAP duties or attending CAP functions

4. Visiting military installations

5. Attending social activities or dinners on military installations

...And that's it.


Oh, and the Unit Commander's feelings on the matter are irrelevant.   If it's not on the list above, wear of the uniform is not authorized.  Period.

If you still think it is permissible under regulations to wear the CAP uniform to the interview, (here's the favorite CAPTALK phrase) cite, please.

Then I guess Col. Byrd should have the Uniform Inquisition sent after him for wearing his CAP uniform at the Inauguration Parade, since it doesn't fall under any of those guidelines.

 

Quote from: kd8gua on January 31, 2010, 12:19:20 AM

Quote from: JoeTomasone on January 30, 2010, 06:49:27 PM
I get the impression that some folks here do not (want to) read the regs.


There is no way that a college/AFROTC interview can be construed as a CAP activity.

For it to be a CAP Activity, it would have to be overseen/run by someone in CAP like any other activity.   For it to be a CAP activity involving a Cadet, an approved Senior Member with CPPT would have to be present (and that SM would have to be in uniform).    If the Cadet were injured during the interview or travelling to or from it, would the Cadet be covered by CAP insurance?  If not, it's not a CAP activity. 

AFROTC is NOT a Cadet Program.   If you think it is, re-read CAPR 52-16.   Such programs are "complementary and mutually supporting". 


You can wear the CAP Uniform when:

1. Participating in or conducting the Cadet Program. 

2. Flying in CAP aircraft.

3. Engaged in normal CAP duties or attending CAP functions

4. Visiting military installations

5. Attending social activities or dinners on military installations

...And that's it.


Oh, and the Unit Commander's feelings on the matter are irrelevant.   If it's not on the list above, wear of the uniform is not authorized.  Period.

If you still think it is permissible under regulations to wear the CAP uniform to the interview, (here's the favorite CAPTALK phrase) cite, please.

Then I guess Col. Byrd should have the Uniform Inquisition sent after him for wearing his CAP uniform at the Inauguration Parade, since it doesn't fall under any of those guidelines.

Apples to Oranges. There's a big difference between a field grade officer wearing his dress uniform to a high level function and a cadet wearing his uniform to impress an ROTC officer.

One of the things that CAP taught me was that the uniform wasn't always the best thing to wear. The cadet in question would make a great impression if he could show the lessons he learned from uniform wear (sharp, pressed shirt and pants, clean jacket, well tied tie), rather than trying to show off with a chest full of bling and some stripes or pips.

I have known some ROTC/JROTC type officer/NCO's who didn't hold a high opinion of CAP cadets just because of stuff like this. Again, it's much more important to be able to show what you've learned from CAP, rather than just that you're a member.

Quote from: JThemann on January 31, 2010, 02:41:09 AM
...it's much more important to be able to show what you've learned from CAP, rather than just that you're a member.

Mind if I borrow that?

And of course:  :clap: :clap: :clap:

I wonder what the ROTC and CAP-USAF personnel would say all of this. In the end, the folks at Air University are the ones who govern out uniforms and their wear authorizations.

A few thoughts:

Technically CAP governs its own uniforms...the AF authorizes  use of AF specific uniform items....for the most part.

As and AF guy.... very rearely have I ever run into anyone else in the AF that has a bad thing to say about CAP members...but especially not cadets. (maybe choice words about senior members, but not cadets)

If I was sitting on a ROTC/Military type board and you show up in CAP uniform it better be 100% squared away...otherwise I would be thinking of taking away points for looking like a schmuck.

mk

I would go with a suit and tie and a tactful CAP related lapel pin.  I have been in law enforcement hiring boards and I always wear my 1 Battalion 6th Marines lapel pin.  Everytime I have been asked what it is and it has always prompted some fun war story telling for a few minutes to break the ice.

And I dont mean your entire ribbon rack worn as a lapel pin though either......

Quote from: RiverAux on January 24, 2010, 04:56:34 PM
If there is any gray area about it, get your commander involved and let him/her make the call. 

A good idea under any circumstances.

I believe it would be appropriate if the cadet is going to be a member of AFROTC.  A former squadron of mine worked closely with a local college ROTC unit and we always wore uniforms when dealing with them.

Their commander (an AF Captain) would probably ask the cadet "why aren't you in uniform?"  He would be interested in seeing the cadet's military bearing.  But that's just one officer.

But take the commander's advice, not mine.

Took my unit to a AFROTC presentation. At the Presentation, the  AFROTC, Air Force Officer, said to wear a Uniform if you are in a Cadet Program or if you attend a Military Academy, to the AFROTC Selection Board. They are looking for people that have experience, they give higher ratings, to those that know how to wear a uniform, and who have Cadet Program Experience. They like CAP Cadets and want more to join AFROTC!

He specifcally stated, "Wear your Uniform"

Cheers!

Quote from: Earhart1971 on February 12, 2010, 03:49:57 AM
Took my unit to a AFROTC presentation. At the Presentation, the  AFROTC, Air Force Officer, said to wear a Uniform if you are in a Cadet Program or if you attend a Military Academy, to the AFROTC Selection Board. They are looking for people that have experience, they give higher ratings, to those that know how to wear a uniform, and who have Cadet Program Experience. They like CAP Cadets and want more to join AFROTC!

He specifcally stated, "Wear your Uniform"

Cheers!

That may be the practice for the location that you visited, but is it an established policy for AFROTC? If it's not spelled out in a publication somewhere, it's only the preference for one location.

I have been in the Air Force, I have spent many hours with AFROTC both Junior and Senior. I have known all the past Commanders of the subject Unit.  They want Cadets to come in UNIFORM.  I have sent Cadets to AFROTC and 3 to the Academy.  All of them went to the selection boards in UNIFORM.  All of them got to where they wanted to go. CAP Cadets have an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE and I want to make sure that is always the case.