Quote from: Gunner C on January 06, 2009, 08:34:39 AM
I used to run a wing's mission observer school.  We'd give them the best training possible outside of of NESA.  When they left our course they could navigate, observe, work the radios, plan searches, and whatever else was needed in the front seat.

Unfortunately, that was the last time that most of them ever saw the front seat.  On the very next SAREX, everyone of them had showed up with their equipment ready to fly missions.  They sat there the entire day waiting to be called for a sortie by the AOBD.  The entire day they watched A/C take off with three pilots.  Finally, the AOBD came in and said "I need one of you backseaters to replace someone on a mission."

I never saw anyone from that class on a mission again. I don't think any of them ever renewed their membership, either.

I've been on sorties where a low-time MP (not an observer) elbowed me out of the way on the way to the aircraft.  He said that a pilot's place was in the front seat.  I said that an observers station was the front right seat.  I refused to fly the mission and they left without an observer. That's how observers get treated. 

When I was a group commander, pilots trained as scanners, then MPs. PIlots weren't allowed to be observers and take seats from MOs who had trained for the privilege to fly on SARs.  If I hadn't done that, they NEVER would have flown.

Happened to me once, followed by "How do you get this darn Becker to work?"

I sat there and smiled: seating arrangements changed shortly thereafter. 

I agree with SJFedor, if things are going to get squirrely, yeah, I'll sit in the back.

But you have to ask nicely. 

You see Danny, I can deal with the bullets, and the bombs, and the blood. I don't want money, and I don't want medals. What I do want is for you to stand there in your. . . . . . . 

Quote from: Pumbaa on January 06, 2009, 10:28:28 AM
So is a Pilot - Observer/Photog near impossible in a 172/182?  I say no.  It is a learnable skill set and learnable team skillset.

Possible or not, its not necessary when you have qualified people for the back seat without the same limitations (or other aircrew responsibilities).

Same continued argument, if our people worried more about doing their job, and not about what everyone else is doing, we'd be better off.

Pilot drives the plane.
Observers run the mission.
Scanners do the heavy lifting or looking and/or absorbing the light they see and bringing it back to show others.

Quote from: Eclipse on January 06, 2009, 01:44:33 PM
Pilot drives the plane.
Observers run the mission.
Scanners do the heavy lifting or looking and/or absorbing the light they see and bringing it back to show others.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Quote from: Eclipse on January 06, 2009, 01:44:33 PM
Pilot drives the plane.
Observers run the mission.
Scanners do the heavy lifting or looking and/or absorbing the light they see and bringing it back to show others.

+1

Quote from: O-Rex on January 05, 2009, 11:15:12 PMIn keeping with the USAF model, there are four basic wings (not counting astronauts or Medico's) Pilots are, well, Pilots; Nav's/WSO's are Officers who can read a map/screen/radar and shoot missiles and other things that can cause severe discomfort and modify terrain (note: WSO/Navs as well as Navy BN's and RIO's get stick-time during AOC training..)  Enlisted Aircrew bunches all of the MOS's together, but Officer Aircrew is for things like AWACS crews and the like.

Air Force has seven different wings at present:

• Pilot(to include "co-pilots")
• Navigator/Observer
• Officer Aircrew
• Air Battle Manager(Worn by AWACS crews, formerly they received the Officer Aircrew badge)
• Flight Surgeon
• Flight Nurse
• Enlisted Aircrew

The first six listed are all officer wings. The last is for the all enlisted personnel on active flight status. And there are enlisted personnel that can receive wings even if the career field does not specifically require flight.

Not completely certain what the officer aircrew badge actually covers. The AFI isn't real clear to me.

Quote from: jeders on January 06, 2009, 03:06:15 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on January 06, 2009, 01:44:33 PM
Pilot drives the plane.
Observers run the mission.
Scanners do the heavy lifting or looking and/or absorbing the light they see and bringing it back to show others.

+1

+2

I flew a mission in the right seat recently with a mission pilot in the left and... get this... the most credentialed aviator in my unit and on the mission (a former B-52, B-1 and F-111 driver who's new to CAP) in the BACK SEAT.

I felt like he might have felt a little slighted -- he wasn't, since he's a team player and was qualified to sit as a scanner, as he's working his way to mission-pilot status (which I know he'll grease). Felt a little funny, but I understood the mission as an observer and I think he got some insights out of it....

I guess putting a pilot in the right seat is dependent on the type of mission. As long as I don't feel like I want to tell the right-seater how to do his job, I'm fine....

This one's straying a bit. Should I consider it done and lock the voting, or leave it for another day or two?

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 06, 2009, 05:44:52 PM
This one's straying a bit. Should I consider it done and lock the voting, or leave it for another day or two?

Pull the trigger: It's been a consistent 60/40 split.

Quote from: O-Rex on January 06, 2009, 06:07:02 PMPull the trigger: It's been a consistent 60/40 split.

Do I hear a second?

A simple solution to this question. If anyone feels that strongly about it than make a suggestion and put it through the proper chain of command. Personally I dont see to much kickback. USCG Auxiliary Air Crew Wings

That would make us look like the PANAM-Scanners.

Modify the bling we have, or leave it alone.  There is no need to go through the process of creating more wings.  Add a star, add a star and toilet seat, whatever but dear lord please don't add a slightly different set of wings for people to wear incorrectly. 

I mean we have pa's that can fix those pictures but we'll still laugh at it.

Simple.  Pilot Wings for pilots, Air Crew Wings for everyone else in the plane (use the Observer Wings, to save money!!!)

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 06, 2009, 04:58:50 PM

Quote from: O-Rex on January 05, 2009, 11:15:12 PMIn keeping with the USAF model, there are four basic wings (not counting astronauts or Medico's) Pilots are, well, Pilots; Nav's/WSO's are Officers who can read a map/screen/radar and shoot missiles and other things that can cause severe discomfort and modify terrain (note: WSO/Navs as well as Navy BN's and RIO's get stick-time during AOC training..)  Enlisted Aircrew bunches all of the MOS's together, but Officer Aircrew is for things like AWACS crews and the like.

Air Force has seven different wings at present:

• Pilot(to include "co-pilots")
• Navigator/Observer
• Officer Aircrew
• Air Battle Manager(Worn by AWACS crews, formerly they received the Officer Aircrew badge)
• Flight Surgeon
• Flight Nurse
• Enlisted Aircrew

The first six listed are all officer wings. The last is for the all enlisted personnel on active flight status. And there are enlisted personnel that can receive wings even if the career field does not specifically require flight.

Not completely certain what the officer aircrew badge actually covers. The AFI isn't real clear to me.

Like the enlisted aircrew wings....any officer who flies in conjuction with their job (and x prefix on their AFSC) but does not rate pilot/nav/flight nurse/flight doc/ABM wings.

I have seen flying COPs, maintenance officers, intell officers and some technical specialties get them.

Lets just get these ones below produced through Vanguard an issue a set to everyone

Quote from: Timbo on January 06, 2009, 08:36:58 PM
Simple.  Pilot Wings for pilots, Air Crew Wings for everyone else in the plane (use the Observer Wings, to save money!!!)

Isn't that what we do now?

Let's face it....by definition a Scanner is just a trainee position.  It is no really inteneded for someone to get an MS rating and then just stay there forever (yes people do....and they do a good job....but it was not intended for that).

I would do away with the Scanner specality and incorporate the training (and the required two sorties in the back seat) into the MO and MP/MTP rateings.

^ You are correct.  However, I was thinking about lumping everyone not a pilot into the "aircrew" category.  Archer, SDIS etc, etc, etc etc. 

 

That's not even close to right.

The Scanner is the only person whose job is to LOOK OUT THE WINDOW.  If that includes a camera or some other technology then so be it.

Rolling this into scanner is simply going to cause "His piece is bigger than mine" type adolescent issues of who gets to sit next to daddy while he drives the plane.

Scanner does not even resemble a "training only position".  What is the training they get?, and how are you going to roll the 30 tasks required into another specialty.  I can't think of any specialties that have 50+ tasks for qualification. 

Plus MO and MS are COMPLETELY different with the exception coming that they are both done from an A/C.

Quote from: lordmonar on January 06, 2009, 08:41:36 PM
Isn't that what we do now?

Let's face it....by definition a Scanner is just a trainee position.  It is no really inteneded for someone to get an MS rating and then just stay there forever (yes people do....and they do a good job....but it was not intended for that).

I would do away with the Scanner specality and incorporate the training (and the required two sorties in the back seat) into the MO and MP/MTP rateings.

I disagree. If some eagle eye only wants to serve by spotting our objectives, more power to them and why not give them bling?

Scanner is also the minimum air side requirement for an GBD to progress to PSC (like UDF for a AOBD).

Why is it AOBD and not GOBD (or vice versa)?

I don't know if I agree with the Scanner being a trainee position.  A lot of GTMs get a scanner rating so they have a better understanding of what goes on in the aircraft without having to get too bogged down with some of the more technical aspects covered by the MO job.

This is the same reason I try to convince aircrews to at least get UDF qualified.  It gives them more insight to what ground operations goes through and is a useful backup for those crowded SAREXs.  If you can't fly at least you might get to go out on a ground mission and vise versa.

Removing the scanner position or only making a trainee position might reduce the number of generally non-aircrew types that would try it out.

For the record, I have been a ground-pounder for almost all my CAP life but didn't become a scanner until about three years ago.  I have taken the Observer class and I am waiting to do my flights, but that was only due to the suggestion of my Wing Vice Commander.

As for wings, why not.  The idea for a badge for UDF probably isn't too far behind either.

Quote from: lordmonar on January 06, 2009, 08:41:36 PM
Let's face it....by definition a Scanner is just a trainee position.  It is no really inteneded for someone to get an MS rating and then just stay there forever (yes people do....and they do a good job....but it was not intended for that).

Give

me

a

break

Please go ahead and cite this as anything but GOB opinion, belittling non-pilots...