Where can the regs be found for customs and courtesies.
Sorry to sound like a complete noob.
If it's any consolation, I certainly know the uniform regs are CAPR 39-1
I found a pamphlet on C&C but it seemed to mostly apply to visiting dignitaries, etc.
CAP P 151
You must have been looking at CAPP 3 (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/u_081503135155.pdf) - Guide to Civil Air Patrol Protocol.
CAPP 151 (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/u_082503084356.pdf) is the Customs and Courtesies Pamphlet, although I don't think it's very good.
There is a new draft version of CAPP 151, called Respect on Display (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/Respect_on_Display_Digest_0BB0C38C280D6.pdf) that I think does a pretty good job of clarifying many of the issues new members have.
Thank you.
Quote from: jpizzo127 on March 25, 2009, 06:57:38 PM
Where can the regs be found for customs and courtesies.
Sorry to sound like a complete noob.
I would highly encourage you to read
Respect on Display, it is excellent.
Whoa.. :o
Respect on display is great!!
Quote from: stratoflyer on March 26, 2009, 05:59:12 AM
Whoa.. :o
Respect on display is great!!
I saved to my training material and intend to use it for our new personnel. :clap:
Although I don't like the way it looks; it is probably much better for new cadets and seniors.
And I noticed that some of our fellow members will be happy to see that the white/gray uniform has been eliminated.....at least in the Respect on Display pamphlet...... >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
Quote from: cap235629 on March 26, 2009, 01:34:45 PM
And I noticed that some of our fellow members will be happy to see that the white/gray uniform has been eliminated.....at least in the Respect on Display pamphlet...... >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
How so? Page 13 clearly shows one.
sorry, missed that one, but nowhere else, no instructions on customs and courtesies in this uniform though
That's because earlier in the pamphlet it says that all the C&C are practiced in all the uniforms with exception of the polo and blazer...
QuoteSenior Members. For senior members, the rendering of customs and courtesies is optional, but is expected when wearing a military-style uniform (all uniform combinations except the polo shirt and blazer).
Good News, Bad News.
Last night, I unveiled this big squadron Customs/Courtesies, Uniform Push.
It was overwhelmingly well received by the squadron! (Remember, this is an all senior squadron)
I had only 1 complaint, and positive comments from 6 members after the meeting.
The seniors were very enthusiastic and began trying to get into the habit of referring to each other by rank and last name.
There were some chuckles as mistakes were made, but I was pleasantly surprised at how well they all did, but more importantly, how pleased they all were with the change.
I cannot guarantee everyone was thrilled, but out of a meeting with almost 30 people in the room, I saw only 2 who were unhappy with the decision.
Those who were pleased with the change asked why I had not implemented this sooner. I guess I underestimated my guys.
Meanwhile:
A question came up. When in the CAP uniform (White aviator shirt, with epaulets, ribbons, etc, gray pants) does one stand at attention at the pledge of allegiance or place the hand over the heart?
There was some debate about this. I contend that this uniform is a Military Style and therefore, no hand over the heart. Others said this is a CAP distinctive and is therefore a civilian dress, requiring hand over the heart.
Please advise.
PS: I think the best thing I've ever done for this squadron was start implementing the things I've learned here. Thanks to all.
Quote from: jpizzo127 on March 27, 2009, 03:25:38 PM
A question came up. When in the CAP uniform (White aviator shirt, with epaulets, ribbons, etc, gray pants) does one stand at attention at the pledge of allegiance or place the hand over the heart?
Yes, stand at attention. This is something that I REALLY like about the 'draft' 151, the clarification. Everyone doing the same thing unless they're wearing the polo or blazer.
Congratulations on the renewed enthusiasm for professionalism and the culture of CAP.
The pamphlet excludes only blazer and polo.
I think an important thought here is what whould John Q Public think.
3 CAP members 1 in AF Blues, 1 in Gray/White, 1 in Blue/White.
2 at attention, 1 (gray) with hand over heart, looks strange phrased that way ;D
As a new Senior Member, I found the Respect on Display document very helpful. I was very happy to see the section at the back where they talk about how to address cadets. I'm going to be helping out at an encampment. I wasn't sure how to address Cadets: "Cadet Captain Curry", "Cadet Curry", "Cadet", "Captain Curry", etc....
It makes more sense now!
Quote from: Chicago_Pilot on March 27, 2009, 04:26:52 PM
As a new Senior Member, I found the Respect on Display document very helpful. I was very happy to see the section at the back where they talk about how to address cadets. I'm going to be helping out at an encampment. I wasn't sure how to address Cadets: "Cadet Captain Curry", "Cadet Curry", "Cadet", "Captain Curry", etc....
It makes more sense now!
I would generally try not to address the cadets as just "cadet" because, for whatever I don't understand, most cadets think of that as a derogatory term.
Quote from: NCO forever on March 27, 2009, 05:09:58 PM
I would generally try not to address the cadets as just "cadet" because, for whatever I don't understand, most cadets think of that as a derogatory term.
I suppose that would depend on the context and tone the term is used in. All of our seniors refer to cadets as "cadet."
"Cadet Jones, how are you?"
"Cadet Peterson, could you come here please?"
"As Cadet Curry pointed out..."
When taken to the "What do you think you are doing....CADET" level, the insinuation is that it IS meant as a derogatory remark.
Even AFROTC uses this model. The ASIs refer to all the cadets as "Cadet" and they speak to each other using the term "Cadet."
Long story short, our 40+ cadets don't have any problem with us referring to them as such. It only becomes a big deal when people make it one, IME.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 27, 2009, 05:15:59 PM
Quote from: NCO forever on March 27, 2009, 05:09:58 PM
I would generally try not to address the cadets as just "cadet" because, for whatever I don't understand, most cadets think of that as a derogatory term.
I suppose that would depend on the context and tone the term is used in. All of our seniors refer to cadets as "cadet."
"Cadet Jones, how are you?"
"Cadet Peterson, could you come here please?"
"As Cadet Curry pointed out..."
When taken to the "What do you think you are doing....CADET" level, the insinuation is that it IS meant as a derogatory remark.
Even AFROTC uses this model. The ASIs refer to all the cadets as "Cadet" and they speak to each other using the term "Cadet."
Long story short, our 40+ cadets don't have any problem with us referring to them as such. It only becomes a big deal when people make it one, IME.
I don't have a problem with it, but I have met many cadets that do no matter what the tone. Maybe it's just a localized issue were I am from. It might just be all in my head; the voices could be lying to me.
... the voices in my head :clap: You were joking. Right? ;) :D ;D
I refer to my cadet sergeants and officers as Sgt. Smith or Lt. Smith. I don't usually add cadet. I do say "cadet" in a slightly raised voice when I am trying to convey a point that isn't up for interpretation from a cadet. I don't use it in a derogatory way. I also say "cadet" when a cadet thinks that a command or an order was a question. I have only done this when a senior cadet should have taken charge, and once when it was a safety issue.
I would refer to a brand new cadet as "cadet" it helps them to learn their
position in the unit.
Quote from: jpizzo127 on March 25, 2009, 06:57:38 PM
Where can the regs be found for customs and courtesies.
Sorry to sound like a complete noob.
If it's any consolation, I certainly know the uniform regs are CAPR 39-1
I found a pamphlet on C&C but it seemed to mostly apply to visiting dignitaries, etc.
CAPM 39-1 is the uniform, dress, and appearance manual.
They are not a sergeant or a colonel... They're a cadet. Shorter to type and to say than Cadet Staff Sergeant Bloggs... If you think that is beneath you... well tough... you're a cadet... release some of the air pressure in your skull and deal.
I was brought up that senior members ALWAYS addressed cadets as "Cadet Smith" and NEVER by "Major Smith" or even "Cadet Major Smith." This was supported by CAPP 151 in the note on paragraph 2e, "NOTE Cadets are addressed as 'Cadet' by CAP senior members, USAF officers, and enlisted personnel..."
Looking are Respect on Display, they contradict that on page 16, "Senior members may address cadets by grade or simply by the noble title 'Cadet'"
I wonder if the writers of Respect on Display know of upcoming changes or perhaps they were just not aware of what CAPP 151 says on the topic...
I'm kidding on the last thing there...
The person that wrote Respect on Display is a former Spaatz cadet and current Chief of Cadet Programs. So he's well 'in tune' with the cadet program.
The previous rendition of 151 says that, but does it really matter if you call them by their grade? "Cadet Major Smith" or "Cadet Staff Sergeant Jones" would be appropriate. But, "Cadet" is a whole lot easier to say.
Unless you're well "in tune" with the cadet program, it's almost impossible to keep up with cadet promotions. It's always safe to use "cadet" and not give the impression that you don't know, or care, about your cadets.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 30, 2009, 05:07:57 PM
The person that wrote Respect on Display is a former Spaatz cadet and current Chief of Cadet Programs. So he's well 'in tune' with the cadet program.
The previous rendition of 151 says that, but does it really matter if you call them by their grade? "Cadet Major Smith" or "Cadet Staff Sergeant Jones" would be appropriate. But, "Cadet" is a whole lot easier to say.
Quote from: G+10 on March 30, 2009, 05:00:12 PM
I was brought up that senior members ALWAYS addressed cadets as "Cadet Smith" and NEVER by "Major Smith" or even "Cadet Major Smith." This was supported by CAPP 151 in the note on paragraph 2e, "NOTE Cadets are addressed as 'Cadet' by CAP senior members, USAF officers, and enlisted personnel..."
Looking are Respect on Display, they contradict that on page 16, "Senior members may address cadets by grade or simply by the noble title 'Cadet'"
I don't think the questions here is if "Cadet Major Smith" is correct, but if "Major Smith" (or Chief Jones, Sgt Frank) is.
Before we had senior NCO grades, it only seemed an issue with cadet officers.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 30, 2009, 05:07:57 PM
The person that wrote Respect on Display is a former Spaatz cadet and current Chief of Cadet Programs. So he's well 'in tune' with the cadet program.
The previous rendition of 151 says that, but does it really matter if you call them by their grade? "Cadet Major Smith" or "Cadet Staff Sergeant Jones" would be appropriate. But, "Cadet" is a whole lot easier to say.
Absolutely not, I have no problem at all calling them by their grade. Your mention of '...the previous rendition of 151..." got me thinking I was referencing an out of date pub, but during my search I now see that 'Respect on Display' is a replacement to CAPP 151. If that is what the new guidance is then I'm good to go!
If a senior military officer can refer to a junior officer by their first name, then I can call a cadet "Cadet". If a Marine Officer can refer to me as "Marine" and me not take it as an insult, as a Senior member, I can call a Cadet "Cadet".
Quote from: Flying Pig on March 31, 2009, 04:55:55 PM
If a senior military officer can refer to a junior officer by their first name, then I can call a cadet "Cadet". If a Marine Officer can refer to me as "Marine" and me not take it as an insult, as a Senior member, I can call a Cadet "Cadet".
I think you are also good to go. They are leaving both as an option in this draft of 151, 'Cadet' and 'Airman Smith.'
On the other hand, if you are addressing the thought that some people will take being referred to as 'Cadet' as some sort of slight, then that is something that I wouldn't personally be worried about. They are a cadet and that is that.
I agree. Some, and I reiterate "SOME" cadets I have talked to believe the term "Cadet" is an insult. They believe "I have earned the rank of Captain, and I should be referred to as a Captain, not Cadet." What they don't understand is they are still in the growing phase of life. By no means have the "arrived" anywhere. Understand the big picture is what I try to explain to them. Someday they will.
As a cadet with a chest full of "cadet medals", who also got all caught up in the "Im a 1Lt, not a cadet" syndrome, believing I was bigger than I was, I got a harsh dose of reality on day 1 of USMC Boot Camp. At that point I realized CAP had done nothing more than put me on the right path to START life in the big-boy world.
I guess I was on the other side of the aisle on this one. WIWAC, I hated being called by my grade (i.e. Chief or L.T.) by Senior Members. I preferred to be called Cadet. If another Cadet wanted to call me Chief or L.T. that was fine.
Now, as a TFO, I get a lot of flak from Seniors and Cadets for calling Cadets by the term 'Cadet'. Cadets want me to call them by their grade to make me seem equal to them. There are three or four cadets around my age, older and younger, who think that because of my age I'm just a special cadet. What some of them don't realize is that I would out rank them if I was still a cadet (which they wouldn't like >:D). I got my Mitchell. I did my time and achieved all of my goals as a Cadet. The SMs in my unit see me as a junior SM or a Cadet Officer of sorts. So I am a strong advocate for calling Cadets "cadets". It's not meant to be a demeaning term. It's meant to provide a distinction between the 'Cadet side' and the 'SM side'. Notice I made sure not to say "Officer side" ;)
The infantry taught me valuable lessons in life. One of those lessons was understanding my place in the food chain. it seemed to make life easier.
It also taught me there are stupid questions, and you only get to ask so many of them until you become a marked man. But thats another thread. ;D
Quote from: Flying Pig on March 31, 2009, 05:18:24 PM
I agree. Some, and I reiterate "SOME" cadets I have talked to believe the term "Cadet" is an insult. They believe "I have earned the rank of Captain, and I should be referred to as a Captain, not Cadet." What they don't understand is they are still in the growing phase of life. By no means have the "arrived" anywhere. Understand the big picture is what I try to explain to them. Someday they will.
Quote from: Always Ready on March 31, 2009, 06:06:26 PM
Now, as a TFO, I get a lot of flak from Seniors and Cadets for calling Cadets by the term 'Cadet'. Cadets want me to call them by their grade to make me seem equal to them.
They've earned the grade of "
Cadet Captain", etc., not captain.
I've seen this, too. Its symptomatic of a greater problem in society at large where the media treats adolescents as "mini adults", and parents want to be "friends" with their kids.
Its also propagated by many senior members who act the same way. I've seen seniors out of the CP for ten years who still act (and make requisite poor related decisions) as if they were still cadets.
That doesn't mean I don't have enormous respect for many cadets I deal with, some of whom have accomplished twice as much I had I at the same age, but knowing your "place" in the universe is an important lesson, and sometimes a hard reality sandwich.
CAP is the perfect place to provide that within the structure of the rest of the program.
What I find interesting, and often see as a method for someone lacking, is people who think that somehow your age or years of service qualifies you to do anything. We have longevity awards for a reason. We would be in a sad state if we awarded authority or rank based on age. It may buy you some time, but in the end, it means nothing unless you bring something to the table to back it up.
CAP, I think, is one of the best tools around to teach youth these lessons. A program to teach cadets at an early age that they cannot hide behind titles, or ranks, because people WILL figure you out. They may have to tolerate you, but they do not have to respect you. If everyone takes off their rank, who will they follow? You? Are you even a runner up? If its not you, then you have the opportunity to ask yourself "Why?" and fix it before it really matters. Where will it matter? On the Battlefield? In the Business world? The answers are as diverse as the paths our cadets choose.
They learn You will be judged by what you get accomplished and the reputation you can maintain amongst your peers. The cadets have the opportunity to learn some life lessons in a controlled environment. They have the opportunity to shop and test drive leadership techniques. If they chose one that didnt work, they can go back to the store and test driver another technique. By the time its over, they will probably not have figured it all out, but they should at least have a foundation started to know how to continue. They get a start on life a lap or two ahead of their peers. Whether they keep the lead or get lapped later on in life is beyond our control. Teaching cadets that in life, everyone is equal but your influence is not, is a valuable lesson.
So is it possible this proposed revision to CAPP 151 allowing senior members to use the term 'Cadet' or 'Airman Smith' is not the right path? Perhaps the original authors of 151 limited the form of address for a reason?
It makes no nevermind to me, I'll probably address cadets as 'Cadet' simply through force of habit. Also it appears the draft instructs you to use the form of address as "Colonel Smith" rather than "Cadet Colonel Smith." I don't think I can support that.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 30, 2009, 05:07:57 PM
The person that wrote Respect on Display is a former Spaatz cadet and current Chief of Cadet Programs. So he's well 'in tune' with the cadet program.
The previous rendition of 151 says that, but does it really matter if you call them by their grade? "Cadet Major Smith" or "Cadet Staff Sergeant Jones" would be appropriate. But, "Cadet" is a whole lot easier to say.
They're not officers nor airmen -- they're cadets, a third strata of members. While cadets carry grade, the only grade that matters is "cadet."
For the most part I address the cadets in our squadron as Cadet Smith etc. but if the cadet is above the rank of Major I will address them with their current grade and name. I really do not have a problem with Officers addressing Cadets as Cadet because that is what they are, it just seems that some people do not know how to say it without sounding derogatory.