Simple, Do you think that by and large Retired Military Officers ( excluding NCO's) are better Squadron Commanders than Civilians?
I think it really depends on the officer and squadron in question. In my squadron we had a retired Army Major placed as commander shortly after he joined CAP. It was an absolute disaster. He forced the cadets and SMs to meet together, canceled all of the cadet activities in the intermediate future (he felt they weren't planned well), lectured the entire squadron for half the meeting (literally, and hour to an hour and a half each meeting). He lasted a month before the old commander was reinstated.
Now, I'm sure there are officers that would (and are) doing a fantastic job of running their squadron. I was just subject to a bad experience. It was a case of a retired officer trying to make CAP the Army.
As a general rule, I would have to say yes. Retired officers have (usually) command experience, and they have had 20 years or more to develop a leadership style. The only drawback is that it sometimes takes a while for military guys, who are accustomed to their units being tractical entities, adjusting to the CAP system where the unit is simply a training base, and when a mission presents itself, individuals are formed under an "Incident" commander into a mission task force.
There are exceptions to this general rule, of course, and I am sure all the anti-military CAP corporate types will jump on this statement with alacrity and point to some anecdotal incident where a retired colonel was a big boob or some zero-days-active-duty guy turned out to be the CAP version of Napoleon Bonaparte.
But I don't care.
Most of the retired NCOs that I know seem to do a pretty good job. Of course, I am somewhat prejudiced.
Don
SFC, US Army (Retired)
Quote from: jpnelson82 on April 12, 2008, 12:43:44 PM
Simple, Do you think that by and large Retired Military Officers ( excluding NCO's) are better Squadron Commanders than Civilians?
Hit or miss I'd say. I could see it going both ways, depending on how much CAP experience they had.
I think that the post that said "depends" is the correct one. Some retired Officers and NCOs are tired of the demands of command and staff positions when they retire and they want no part of it. On the other hand, there are those who relish the responsibility of command and love to exercise it. There are always those who fall somewhere in between my two examples. In addition, some retired military officers have never had a command job: there are lots of jobs in the military which do not involve command: those folks are likely no better at a CAP command position than any non-military person.
BTW: I would suggest that you not exclude NCOs from your discussion of commanders in CAP. In my experience, NCOs were really the backbone of the military and they generally know more about command than a lot of the officers. While it is true that they may not have had "command", they have experienced the good and the bad in their commanders and they really have a better feel for it than you might think.
I have found that a lot of CAP members continually mix up "command" with "management". They are not the same, IMHO. I have seen great managers who couldn't command their ways out of a wet paper bag and I, likewise, have seen commanders who couldn't manage if their lives depended on it.
Good discussion topic: lets try to keep the discussion on topic.
Based on my personal experience, I'd say no. If I had no experience in the matter, I would have said "hands down, a retired military officer would be the best one for the job", but I have had 3 very bad experiences. Only 2, however, were squadron commanders, the other being a deputy commander for cadets.
The 2 squadron commanders were both retired AF Lt Cols, and practically disintegrated the squadron, one right after the other. Lying, cheating (for their kids in the squadron), forcing people out, and trying pushing anyone who wasn't in their clique out, to include me. It wasn't until I had one of them by the balls with trying to fudge paperwork to get his son the Mitchell by August when he left for college when he was just a SSgt in June (READ: SSgt to 2d Lt in 2 months, ain't gonna happen during my watch).
The other, a retired Army major (field artillery), thought because he was an ROTC instructor for 3 years that he could run a program of 12 to 18 year olds. He actually told me that he didn't think I should work with cadets because I was an enlisted soldier (at the time) on active duty. Parents ended up complaining about the increase in "school type projects" and the decrease in CAP Cadet Programs type activities. He left after a year, but the damage was done.
That said, the best squadron commander I ever had was an active duty AF major turned Lt Col turned retired Lt Col. Had been in CAP since his teens and continued throughout his Air Force career. Always thought he should be the NHQ Commander when he retired from the AF, but people like the above mentioned retired Lt Cols and wing commanders in the past/present pushed him out when they made things 10x harder than they ever needed to be.
In my experience retired military officers are no better or worse than their non military peers as squadron commanders. It really depends on the individual. It isn't a given that being a retired officer equates to being a successful CAP sqdn commander.
I've seen a lot of retired military officers (and NCOs for that matter) struggle while trying to command in CAP. They are very much used to having an entire squadron (or wing), fully manned and trained, available to handle whatever needs to be done. They are used to treating their staff as paid professionals (meaning they have no qualms about laying large burdens on them), and are not at all experienced in handling volunteers. The difference in culture between the "real military" and the voulunteer CAP is sometimes difficult for them to deal with.
I'm sure there are exceptions, but on balance I'd say retired military folks are not better commanders in CAP.
I've seen commanders try to run CAP like the military. It doesn't work. In a volunteer organization like CAP, people vote with their feet.
In my experience, the best CAP commanders have been able to fully understand the members serving with them. They have the ability to motivate the members, get things done without micromanaging and, they don't have a problem with making tough decisions without assigning blame; but very willing to share the credit when things go well.
This ability is shared by all good leaders. It doesn't take previous military background to acquire these skills. In fact, I know many successful /cc's without military experience. But, the best have been in CAP for enough time to understand our culture and know how to use it to succeed.
LOL. :D
I think the answer to this is similar to the answer I was once told about "Mustang Officers", folks who use to be enlisted and became officers. The question there was "do Mustangs make better officers?" The answer to both questions is:
They are either above or below average but they are never average. ;D
Lots of skills but a lot of built in baggage. Some adjust, others don't. And I would bet this applies to the NCOs in CAP as well.
Quote from: Short Field on April 12, 2008, 11:16:29 PM
LOL. :D
I think the answer to this is similar to the answer I was once told about "Mustang Officers", folks who use to be enlisted and became officers. The question there was "do Mustangs make better officers?" The answer to both questions is:
[
Yes
Quote from: FW on April 12, 2008, 10:22:34 PM
In my experience, the best CAP commanders have been able to fully understand the members serving with them. They have the ability to motivate the members, get things done without micromanaging and, they don't have a problem with making tough decisions without assigning blame; but very willing to share the credit when things go well.
This ability is shared by all good leaders. It doesn't take previous military background to acquire these skills. In fact, I know many successful /cc's without military experience. But, the best have been in CAP for enough time to understand our culture and know how to use it to succeed.
Well said, in fact, I think I would like to publish this (or a similar sentiment) in my weekly newsletter.
The idea of good leadership is not formed as the result of any program or paradigm, if comes from understanding those that serve.
This is the second year of my second "time at bat" as a Suqadron Commander. I have always tried to understand the needs of our Unit's CAP Officers and Cadets. They are people with lives, family concerns and matters of a personal nature. They are people who pay to serve.
I cannot dictate to them the needs of CAP. I can only put before them what must be done. Those that can, can; those that can't...must be understood.
In CAP, for example, there was a SARex this weekend. I cannot order my Officers to go, even less Cadets, then punish them for not being able to. I need them to go because they want to and can attend free of complexity.
Any commander that enters, be they from a military background or business or you have it, must understand that.
As a rule....I would have to say NO.
This is not to say that they make poor commanders...but I think they have no real advantage over anyone else with 20+ years experience leading.
First off.
Running a 50 person USAF squadron is not the same as running a 50 person CAP squadron.
The average USAF squadron does not have to worry about raising funds, recruiting personnel, training said personnel from scratch, have to worry about "motivating" their personnel. The focus on managing "assigned" personnel, manage their resources (money) and focus on mission training/planning/execution.
In my opinion it is harder to run a CAP squadron than a similar sized AD unit.
On active duty....you can always say....do it or you go to jail.....Not a CAP option.
On active duty....you know what your assigned missions are....not in CAP.
On active duty....if you have a personnel shortage you call MAJCOM A1 and it gets fixed (Maybe)...in CAP you are on your own.
On active duty...if you have a training short fall....you send your guys TDY and get it done....in CAP you got to wait until someone...someplace offers the training.
On active duty...there are experts assigned to meet your mission needs....in CAP if you can't find the experts you just go with what you have.
To tell you the truth...if we could ever find an AD unit with an identical mission as a CAP squadron...I would put up the CAP commander against any AD commander any day....when it comes to leading.
As far as "leadership" experince....I know a lot of Capts and Majs who have never supervised more that 3-4 people at a time. I got SSgts who manage more money and equipment, are more integral to planning operations and future capabilities and shaping the direction of my AD unit then some of the Majors.
Not to say that that USAF officers are bad or anything....just pointing out that there are different types of leadership based on different situations.
Being a 20 year USAF Lt Col does not necessarily mean you will be any more successful running a CAP squadron then say....someone who has run his own construction business for 20 years or is a manager of a Mc Donald's.
Sure they bring a lot of great skills to the fight...but being successful in one type of leadership may not guarantee success in another type.
Quote from: lordmonar on April 13, 2008, 02:07:12 AM
As a rule....I would have to say NO.
This is not to say that they make poor commanders...but I think they have no real advantage over anyone else with 20+ years experience leading.
First off.
Running a 50 person USAF squadron is not the same as running a 50 person CAP squadron.
The average USAF squadron does not have to worry about raising funds, recruiting personnel, training said personnel from scratch, have to worry about "motivating" their personnel. The focus on managing "assigned" personnel, manage their resources (money) and focus on mission training/planning/execution.
In my opinion it is harder to run a CAP squadron than a similar sized AD unit.
On active duty....you can always say....do it or you go to jail.....Not a CAP option.
On active duty....you know what your assigned missions are....not in CAP.
On active duty....if you have a personnel shortage you call MAJCOM A1 and it gets fixed (Maybe)...in CAP you are on your own.
On active duty...if you have a training short fall....you send your guys TDY and get it done....in CAP you got to wait until someone...someplace offers the training.
On active duty...there are experts assigned to meet your mission needs....in CAP if you can't find the experts you just go with what you have.
To tell you the truth...if we could ever find an AD unit with an identical mission as a CAP squadron...I would put up the CAP commander against any AD commander any day....when it comes to leading.
As far as "leadership" experince....I know a lot of Capts and Majs who have never supervised more that 3-4 people at a time. I got SSgts who manage more money and equipment, are more integral to planning operations and future capabilities and shaping the direction of my AD unit then some of the Majors.
Not to say that that USAF officers are bad or anything....just pointing out that there are different types of leadership based on different situations.
Being a 20 year USAF Lt Col does not necessarily mean you will be any more successful running a CAP squadron then say....someone who has run his own construction business for 20 years or is a manager of a Mc Donald's.
Sure they bring a lot of great skills to the fight...but being successful in one type of leadership may not guarantee success in another type.
This guy, no matter the background, will never be a good CAP commander:
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff231/ofrabjousday/180px-Ming.gif)
No, in general retired military (or just former) military officers do not make better commanders than civilians. For many of the reasons pointed out above, I think they bring some baggage to the table that civilians do not. However, there is some baggage the civilians bring that military types do not.
I think civilians who perform leadership roles in their "real" life are better since they have to deal with the same issues faced by CAP squadrons on a regular basis.
This is why I sometimes get frustrated by those in CAP who I think idolize the concept of the military and the capabilities of those in the military just a little too much.
Now, if you get a civilian whose real life job involved no leadership at all, they've got a high potential for disaster as well, especially if they have watched "Heartbreak Ridge" just a few too many times and want to try to apply their concept of the military (based on no experience) to CAP.
Going back to my post above and thinking about it, I think one of the best types of squadron commanders is the one with a combination of CAP and Air Force military experience, especially field grade officers.
I mentioned 3 field grade officers who pretty much sunk a squadron on their own once taking charge. None of them had prior CAP experience other than maybe a year or two before becoming a CAP Sq/CC.
The other guy I mentioned, had been in CAP longer than he had been in the AF and continued being active in CAP since being a cadet and through his AF retirement. He had firm grasp of CAP, probably more than the AF. Now he was the best commander I had ever experienced. First and foremost, he took care of his people. Secondly, he did not micromanage. Lastly, he understood that no matter how good the intentions of your senior staff, they're all volunteers and can only do so much. Together, he and his deputy commanders rekindled an almost non-existent squadron into a multi-year "squadron of the year" with every aspect of perforance setting the standard for the wing and region.
But alas, after the fact, the two retired Lt Cols came in and made that all go away real quick, one after the other.
Years of CAP and Military experience = Excellent CAP Squadron Commander.
Quote from: Stonewall on April 13, 2008, 06:35:27 PM
Going back to my post above and thinking about it, I think one of the best types of squadron commanders is the one with a combination of CAP and Air Force military experience, especially field grade officers.
I mentioned 3 field grade officers who pretty much sunk a squadron on their own once taking charge. None of them had prior CAP experience other than maybe a year or two before becoming a CAP Sq/CC.
The other guy I mentioned, had been in CAP longer than he had been in the AF and continued being active in CAP since being a cadet and through his AF retirement. He had firm grasp of CAP, probably more than the AF. Now he was the best commander I had ever experienced. First and foremost, he took care of his people. Secondly, he did not micromanage. Lastly, he understood that no matter how good the intentions of your senior staff, they're all volunteers and can only do so much. Together, he and his deputy commanders rekindled an almost non-existent squadron into a multi-year "squadron of the year" with every aspect of perforance setting the standard for the wing and region.
But alas, after the fact, the two retired Lt Cols came in and made that all go away real quick, one after the other.
Years of CAP and Military experience = Excellent CAP Squadron Commander.
This has been my experience, too. Former CAP cadet who had been in the military. Folks who have no cadet or military experience end up with their entire squadron in golf shirts.
GC
Quote from: Gunner C on April 13, 2008, 06:42:47 PMThis has been my experience, too. Former CAP cadet who had been in the military. Folks who have no cadet or military experience end up with their entire squadron in golf shirts.
GC
And you see it here in the Uniform Discussion. And this is not intended to offend anyone, but throughout my 21 years in CAP, 9x out of 10, I can tell who has a solid military background from those who don't. Again, no disrespect, but by "solid military background" I don't mean 2 years in the Navy Reserve as a deck hand. I'm talking several years as active duty or a career made out of it, with time as a Senior NCO or Officer. Some folks can't understand the importance of the military aspect of CAP, primarily with the Cadet Program. Doesn't mean people intentionally blow off this stuff, it just means they may not have a grasp for some of the little things that can make a big difference. YMMV and I know of people who will disagree just to disagree.
You might find a difference between military guys who spent 20 years on active duty vs. most of their time in the Guard or Reserve. Reservists and Guardsmen understand the conflicting roles of their members more so than the active duty side.
The best commanders, regardless of military experience, are those who have spent several years in a squadron, learning about CAP.
As Kach said, among the ex-military, reservists/Guard probably understand the tensions between CAP and 'real life' better than former active duty officers.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on April 13, 2008, 11:28:02 PM
The best commanders, regardless of military experience, are those who have spent several years in a squadron, learning about CAP.
Point on! The military can give you a fairly full bag of tools to bring to CAP - but it is how you use them and add to them that makes you sucessful.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 13, 2008, 09:49:01 PM
You might find a difference between military guys who spent 20 years on active duty vs. most of their time in the Guard or Reserve. Reservists and Guardsmen understand the conflicting roles of their members more so than the active duty side.
Building on that, I would have to say that ROTC routed Officers both AD and RES are even more aware to conflicting roles as apposed to Academy or OCS/OTS Officers.
Either way, Even AD types know there are conflicting roles. We still have Soldiers that take a second job moonlighting, or the other typical "American family problems". Just because we are AD, does not mean we are oblivious to the world off post.
I was RES before I went AD, so I got a taste of both worlds. RES and Guard does not mean you only think about your drill weekend when it approaches. The RES Officers gave many hours during the month to making sure the unit was good to go, just as they did in their civilian careers. I do commend RES/GUARD because they are the the ones truly playing the part of Citizen-Warrior as imagined when our nation was founded.
In my limited experience, Guard and Reserve Officers do bring better insight into the CAP game. :clap:
Quote from: mikeylikey on April 14, 2008, 02:55:33 AM
Building on that, I would have to say that ROTC routed Officers both AD and RES are even more aware to conflicting roles as apposed to Academy or OCS/OTS Officers.
From a national guard OCS perspective - versus federal OCS - I'd have to disagree on that aspect. I agree that straight shot college-op OCS grads & academy have less perspective or tolerance for the human aspects.
Quote from: mikeylikey on April 14, 2008, 02:55:33 AM
In my limited experience, Guard and Reserve Officers do bring better insight into the CAP game. :clap:
I will try to keep up the stereotype for ya then sir. ;D
Anyway, it's a real mixed bag. Mid to Sr grade military officers have a certain degree of leadership/mgmt training & have been promoted thru boards on merit, not just cause they hung around a while. They do have the fault of needing to learn the CAP system/culture & specifically about how to lead/manage volunteers. There's some good courses out there for that, one in particular from FEMA, that I think should be pre-req to granting their mil grade in CAP.
Likewise, civilians w/o mil experience that upper to executive level mgmt in decent sized companies, have had some formal training, etc also bring similar, if less well rounded, skill bases to the table. They tend to be better at picking up the CAP culture, but slow on the uptake with the mil aspects & formality (paperwork, etc), but about the same with the system & ldrshp/mgmt of volunteers.
I think the more interesting question is about people that have formal ldrshp/mgmt training, experience, and success outside of CAP versus Capt Joe Blow that hung out for a while & has no such qualifications. I think the guy w/o outside qualifications almost always fails, where the person with outside skills/etc tends to be successful if they take enough time to get their legs under them & address their minor deficiencies first. That's where I start asking why we aren't providing that kind of education/experience/merit based advancement/rewards for success kind of system internally. Why we're dependent on what they bring to the table form outside, but don't discriminate about that skill/experience.
I think what sinks many commanders (no matter their background) is getting put in charge of a squadron too soon after joining CAP. No matter where you come from, if you don't know how the organization works at its most basic levels, you aren't going to make a good sq. commander.
What I think happens sometimes is that you'll get a former military person who gets put in charge too soon BECAUSE they have a military background. I think there is a tendency to count on former military to know the job when in fact they're still learning how the ES qualification program works. I think that 100% civilians are less likely to be thrust into a leadership role (or think they can take one on) as soon as the military types.
Quote from: RiverAux on April 16, 2008, 07:48:11 PM
I think what sinks many commanders (no matter their background) is getting put in charge of a squadron too soon after joining CAP. No matter where you come from, if you don't know how the organization works at its most basic levels, you aren't going to make a good sq. commander.
But that's what happens too many times. How many units do you see with Lts in command with Lt Cols and Majs out the wazoo, sitting on their hands doing nothing. I'd send them to group. I was a group commander as a capt with senior officers doing next to nothing. It pissed me off. I hadn't been back in CAP more than a couple of years. I stayed in command four years and turned some things around. I still couldn't get the CAP O4 & O5s to get off their dead butts. But they looked cool with their gold and silver oak leaves on.
One of my squadron commanders was a 1st Lt. Really good guy who worked hard. He had a senior maj who kept on harping that I wouldn't sign his Lt Col Form 2. The guy wanted to be called colonel but didn't want to be the commander. That pissed me off, too. If you want the bling, do the freakin work. [/soap box]
GC
I was talking about CAP experience -- not rank -- refer to other threads about rank and squadron command.