I know this isn't total news, but the Air Force had last year made a decision on the new service coat. Does anyone know details of the wear test or is it already being phased in?
Today on www.af.mil I noticed the article on USAFE change of command and in the photo, the incoming CC, General Brady, is wearing just that uniform. Looks odd... don't know if I like it after all.
FWIW I think it has a much more military cut than the current one. Just look at the Army general next to him.
Not sure on the belt.
I was somewhat surprised to see him wearing a flight cap to such an formal occasion - does the new uniform have a wheel cap?
Another pic closer up:
(http://www.af.mil/shared/media/bio/brady_ra2.jpg)
Still wear testing as far as I know.
As far as the service cap is concered....the flight cap has been okay for all functions for a long time now. I don't even think it is a required item for officers anymore....I know it is not required for enlisted personnel.
The service cap be worn with the new service dress at the wearers option.
ehhh....no thank you. Looks hideous. Lose the belt at a minimum.
Quote from: lordmonar on January 20, 2008, 04:16:24 AM
I don't even think it is a required item for officers anymore....I know it is not required for enlisted personnel.
It's required for Majors and above. Optional for everybody else.
Quote from: mikeylikey on January 20, 2008, 04:26:54 AM
ehhh....no thank you. Looks hideous. Lose the belt at a minimum.
Better learn to like the belt. It's one of the "distinguishing design features" of the new/old Service Dress Jacket.
I kinda like it. At least the now have the belt covering the bottom button. The way they had it before with the belt running between the bottom two looked a little half-baked. The coat in the above pic looks pretty decent actually.
I don't have a problem with the current uniform. I'd rather wear a simple uniform than a museum exhibit.
Hey, doesn't the side with the simplest uniforms win? ;D
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on January 20, 2008, 09:01:58 PM
I don't have a problem with the current uniform. I'd rather wear a simple uniform than a museum exhibit.
Hey, doesn't the side with the simplest uniforms win? ;D
Were you around when that one came in? There is such a thing as
too simple.
I can remember Airline pilot and stewardess jokes being told, ad nauseam. Can't say I'm gonna miss it, I don't like suits anyway.
Back before the McPeak bluesuit, we used to call the Air Force guys "Bus drivers," due to the similarity of the old uniform to a Greyhound driver's uniform.
Marines... "Seagoing bellhops."
The Navy tropical white long... "The Good Humor Man Uniform." (Even the Navy guys called it that!)
You're never gonna get away from the inter-service jokes.
Like when the Army went to a black beret, and the Marines started calling it the "Monica Lewinsky Hat."
AAAAAA!!! Now I know why I don't like it... it reminds me of this:
Wow! No wonder they're now giving military service credit to the AF! >:D It actually looks military!
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 21, 2008, 04:26:51 PM
AAAAAA!!! Now I know why I don't like it... it reminds me of this:
I think Nazi Germany had some of the best looking uniforms ever. Just my opinion.
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 21, 2008, 04:26:51 PM
AAAAAA!!! Now I know why I don't like it... it reminds me of this:
It definitely looks "more military" but I think it can be more favorably compared to the British WWII (service?) coat. I have to agree that Nazi Germany churned out some amazing uniforms but as a person who they would've killed about 5 times over based on their ideology, AND since I like the new coat, I prefer to compare it to the Brits' coat.
We would do the same thing.
And I agree, the new coat is more easily compared to a WWII era British service coat.
Quote from: mfd_324 on January 21, 2008, 04:46:30 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 21, 2008, 04:26:51 PM
AAAAAA!!! Now I know why I don't like it... it reminds me of this:
I think Nazi Germany had some of the best looking uniforms ever. Just my opinion.
Unless you were being turned into a lamp shade. YMMV ::)
Somebody once pointed out that our own TPU is styled very similar to the German "Kurz Rock fur Generalen." (Short coat for generals). Now I'm starting to FEEL like Herman Goring, not just look like him!
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 21, 2008, 04:26:51 PM
AAAAAA!!! Now I know why I don't like it... it reminds me of this:
George:
Where did you get that picture?
It appears to be a Wehrmacht uniform (not Waffen SS as the red text indicates) but the uniform has a pilot's badge on it. Also, the dummy in the picture is not wearing his Nazi party membership badge.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 21, 2008, 06:11:37 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 21, 2008, 04:26:51 PM
AAAAAA!!! Now I know why I don't like it... it reminds me of this:
George:
Where did you get that picture?
It appears to be a Wehrmacht uniform (not Waffen SS as the red text indicates) but the uniform has a pilot's badge on it. Also, the dummy in the picture is not wearing his Nazi party membership badge.
It is Waffen SS grade officer coat. Wehrmacht wore the eagle on the breast, SS wore it on the left sleeve. Wehrmacht also had collar Litzen, SS had the black patches with rank insignia in them.
Thanks. I saw the Death's Head, but the pilot badge and gray color threw me. Also he didn't have the little lighting bolts "SS" letters. (Fur "Schutzstaffeln").
Hmmm. Looks like we're going back to our roots. ;)
USAAF WW2 uniform.
By the way, the comparisons to Nazi Germany's uniforms are un-needed. The scalloped pockets, wasit belt, and the general appearance of those uniforms is Prussian in original. Dozens of militaries have adopted the same look and appearance.
Quote from: mfd_324 on January 21, 2008, 04:46:30 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 21, 2008, 04:26:51 PM
AAAAAA!!! Now I know why I don't like it... it reminds me of this:
I think Nazi Germany had some of the best looking uniforms ever. Just my opinion.
Hugo Boss was the design house for many of the Third Reich's uniforms, if me mory serves.
Consider this your second warning.
I don't think anyone here is condoning the Nazis or what they stood for. The discussion was a reference to similarities in uniforms styles.
I will be the first the slap the s**t out of anyone here who says anything in support of Nazis ideas. And I am a first generation American of German descent.
But to ignore history or references to it in the vein of political correctness is wrong. A discussion of uniform styles, uniform heritage, etc without political comment should be acceptable.
Should we not discuss a uniform if it had similarities to Iraq's Republican Guard, or the Chinese Army ...certainly not. I don't believe anyone here is advocating the philosophies of those we detest. However, a civil discussion of uniform origins, similarities, etc. makes for healthy discussion.
Should however anyone inject ideologies into the discussion, they deserve to be cut off.
Since the comparisons are un-needed, I will just keep them to myself... Sorry if anything I have said offended anyone, it was not intentional. I was just replying to someone elses post.
Quote from: teesquared on January 21, 2008, 07:53:30 PM
Hmmm. Looks like we're going back to our roots. ;)
USAAF WW2 uniform.
That is exactly what USAF was doing when they were looking for a new coat. They looked at the uniform worn by Billy Mitchell and also Hap Arnold. The version selected was the Hap Arnold with smaller lapels. They are going to wear test with and without the belt so the belt is not a done deal.
Quote from: LtCol White on January 22, 2008, 12:14:28 AM
Quote from: teesquared on January 21, 2008, 07:53:30 PM
Hmmm. Looks like we're going back to our roots. ;)
USAAF WW2 uniform.
That is exactly what USAF was doing when they were looking for a new coat. They looked at the uniform worn by Billy Mitchell and also Hap Arnold. The version selected was the Hap Arnold with smaller lapels. They are going to wear test with and without the belt so the belt is not a done deal.
I understand the AF referes to the jacket as the "HAP Arnold", but in all reality it is the Army Service Jacket circa 1928. Why can't they call it that. To associate it with Arnold, makes you think he designed it. Don't forget all AF uniforms up until 1953 were Army uniforms.
Edit: Quotes -TA
Quote from: mikeylikey on January 22, 2008, 03:52:14 AM
Quote from: LtCol White on January 22, 2008, 12:14:28 AM
Quote from: teesquared on January 21, 2008, 07:53:30 PM
Hmmm. Looks like we're going back to our roots. ;)
USAAF WW2 uniform.
That is exactly what USAF was doing when they were looking for a new coat. They looked at the uniform worn by Billy Mitchell and also Hap Arnold. The version selected was the Hap Arnold with smaller lapels. They are going to wear test with and without the belt so the belt is not a done deal.
I understand the AF referes to the jacket as the "HAP Arnold", but in all reality it is the Army Service Jacket circa 1928. Why can't they call it that. To associate it with Arnold, makes you think he designed it. Don't forget all AF uniforms up until 1953 were Army uniforms.
Edit: Quotes -TA
These jackets were based on designs seen in PHOTOs and Paintings of Mitchell and Arnold. As far as the ARMY, I don't recall the US Army ever having a blue uniform of that cut.
^ The Army did not. The AF used the same cut jacket just colored it blue.
Then why not redesign the service cap to look like the old one? Then we could just color them all shades of gray and scare people on streets into thinking they fell into a 1950's WW2 movie!
From Todays Air Force magazine online......
Fit Tests for New Coat Begin: Some 150 airmen in the San Antonio area are participating in a fit test of the Air Force's new service coat, dubbed the Heritage Coat. The test will run from Jan. 28 to Feb. 1 at Brooks City-Base, Lackland Air Force Base, and Randolph Air Force Base. Later in February and in March, the fit test moves to the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, Colo. and Maxwell AFB, Ala. Heritage Coat program manager, Capt. Jonathan Pellum, with the 648th Aeronautical Systems Squadron at Brooks, said the fit tests will provide initial data this spring that will show whether the service needs to make changes to the coat before beginning the wear test later this year. The Air Force designed the new coat based on input from airmen who said they favored a historical influence. (311th Human Systems Wing report by Rudy Purificato)
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 23, 2008, 08:09:50 AM
Then why not redesign the service cap to look like the old one? Then we could just color them all shades of gray and scare people on streets into thinking they fell into a 1950's WW2 movie!
Hey, then our epaulets would match then, and we wouldn't be asking for anything new. Right?
Quote from: Smokey on January 23, 2008, 04:29:59 PM
From Todays Air Force magazine online......
Fit Tests for New Coat Begin: Some 150 airmen in the San Antonio area are participating in a fit test of the Air Force's new service coat, dubbed the Heritage Coat. The test will run from Jan. 28 to Feb. 1 at Brooks City-Base, Lackland Air Force Base, and Randolph Air Force Base. Later in February and in March, the fit test moves to the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, Colo. and Maxwell AFB, Ala. Heritage Coat program manager, Capt. Jonathan Pellum, with the 648th Aeronautical Systems Squadron at Brooks, said the fit tests will provide initial data this spring that will show whether the service needs to make changes to the coat before beginning the wear test later this year. The Air Force designed the new coat based on input from airmen who said they favored a historical influence. (311th Human Systems Wing report by Rudy Purificato)
Never thought the day would come when wear testing of a uniform would fall solely on AETC.
Speaking of... the General in question isn't with AETC, so how come he's wearing it?
Cause generals get all the cools new stuff before everyone else.
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123083454
Brooks to serve as initial venue to test fit new service coat
by Rudy Purificato
311th Human Systems Wing
1/23/2008 - BROOKS CITY-BASE, Texas (AFPN) -- About 150 Airmen from Brooks City-Base, Lackland and Randolph Air Force Bases in Texas, will participate in a fit test of the new Air Force Heritage service dress coat here Jan. 28 - Feb. 1.
Subsequent fit tests in February and March are slated for the Air Force Academy and Maxwell-Gunter AFB, Ala. prior to an official wear test period scheduled for this summer.
The initiative to replace the current Air Force service dress coat was inaugurated in 2006 by Gen. T. Michael Moseley, Air Force Chief of Staff.
"Only the service coat is being replaced," said Capt. Jonathan Pellum, Heritage Coat program manager for the 648th Aeronautical Systems Squadron here. "General Moseley wanted the coat updated to reflect Air Force heritage."
The 648th AESS, part of the 77th Aeronautical Systems Group, is tasked with conducting the series of fit tests for Airmen.
"Once we complete the fit test at Maxwell, we will be able to provide initial data by May to the Air Force Chief of Staff," Captain Pellum said. "This data will determine if changes or modifications to the coat are needed before the garment is wear tested. About 200 active-duty members Air Force-wide will test wear the new coat."
The Air Force Uniform Program Office at Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio, is responsible for making modifications to the new coat that currently is a 55 percent polyester/45 percent wool blend.
According to a story by Staff Sergeant J.G. Buzanowski from the Secretary of the Air Force Public Affairs Office, the new service coat has gone through several prototypes. Air Force leaders have since settled on a design similar to the uniform worn by Gen. Henry "Hap" Arnold during World War II.
In Sergeant Buzanowki's story, Brig. Gen. Floyd L. Carpenter, Airmen Development and Sustainment director, said, "We tried several design variations with different lapel styles and sizes, with and without buttons, belted and unbelted, as well as versions with a wide variety of pocket configurations. The prototype coat being tested pulls the strongest mix of detail preferences into one coat and combines them with the latest in textile assembly industry."
General Carpenter said the Air Force Uniform Board will make the decision on final coat modifications. General Moseley has final approval on the new design prior to its production. Captain Pellum estimates, if the program becomes mandatory, the initial cost to be $125 million to manufacture the new coat for the active and Reserve components.
The captain said the Air Force Honor Guard will be among the first to receive the new coat.
Quote from: Hawk200 on January 20, 2008, 09:15:21 PM
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on January 20, 2008, 09:01:58 PM
I don't have a problem with the current uniform. I'd rather wear a simple uniform than a museum exhibit.
Hey, doesn't the side with the simplest uniforms win? ;D
Were you around when that one came in? There is such a thing as too simple.
I can remember Airline pilot and stewardess jokes being told, ad nauseam. Can't say I'm gonna miss it, I don't like suits anyway.
I wore the old blues. They were fine, but in retrospect, we looked like the Air Army and the Civil Army Air Patrol. This uniform identifies us as a separate service, it takes the "clean uniform" philosophy to its logical end, and it just plain works.
The heritage coat is more backlash from some in the Air Force who didn't like the 1993 change. Comments on Air Force Times don't run favorable, if I remember correctly. Some unidentified captain said it should be the subject of a fraud, waste and abuse complaint!
The temptation to keep adding insignia to it runs counter to what the 1993 concept was all about, though at least the Air Force's insignia is tasteful (why can't CAP's be?).
Someone said Gen. Brady is wearing the heritage coat because "generals get all the cool stuff." Not true. He was one of the uniform board members who helped make the decision. The photos that leaked out a couple of years ago across the Air Force had him (then with one less star) in all the service coat options, be it the "Billy Mitchell," the "Hap Arnold" or the "Star Trek" (the latter had a choker collar that the rank went on). Generals don't always get the "cool stuff" first.
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on January 24, 2008, 06:47:43 PM
The temptation to keep adding insignia to it runs counter to what the 1993 concept was all about, though at least the Air Force's insignia is tasteful (why can't CAP's be?).
What's not tasteful about our service dress insignia? Its basically identical to the USAF.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 24, 2008, 06:53:16 PM
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on January 24, 2008, 06:47:43 PM
The temptation to keep adding insignia to it runs counter to what the 1993 concept was all about, though at least the Air Force's insignia is tasteful (why can't CAP's be?).
What's not tasteful about our service dress insignia? Its basically identical to the USAF.
It's not the basic uniform, but what CAP does with it!
Start with the specialty-track shields. I'd much rather see those badges replaced with badges that go over the ribbons, not too much unlike the Air Force's specialty insignia. But this time, maybe Vanguard can design them or the Institute of Heraldry or something, rather than someone with a PC, Microsoft Publisher and the latest clip-art collection?
(Full disclosure: In real life, I'm a designer. Illustrator, Photoshop, FreeHand, QuarkXPress, Mac and PC if I have to, and professional accolades along the way. I think I have some standing here. And I had to get a dig in on Publisher, sorry.)
Won't even mention the sordid assortment of patches available for the BDU, which got out of hand a long time ago. The Pluto ES patch added insult to injury -- the previous patch was superfluous, the new one hokey.
Many of you may not remember (or at least you didn't wear) the cadet achievement ribbons pre-mid-1980s, which had cartoons on 'em. I wore them... and felt some relief when they were redesigned!
I guess my feeling is that we need to be a little more reverent and restrained when it comes to adding or designing insignia. Image goes a long way toward getting respect, especially from our parent service.
Here's a pretty good read that I was sent a few days ago (it's from 2006):
http://www.afa.org/magazine/July2006/0706bluesuit.asp
They should add the Air Corps Branch Insignia on the lapels. They want to link the uniform historically, that would do it.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on January 24, 2008, 07:12:25 PM
Here's a pretty good read that I was sent a few days ago (it's from 2006):
http://www.afa.org/magazine/July2006/0706bluesuit.asp
Good grief! I hope they don't go with the "Billy Mitchell" coat! :P
Quote from: teesquared on January 24, 2008, 11:42:40 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on January 24, 2008, 07:12:25 PM
Here's a pretty good read that I was sent a few days ago (it's from 2006):
http://www.afa.org/magazine/July2006/0706bluesuit.asp
Good grief! I hope they don't go with the "Billy Mitchell" coat! :P
That article is way OBE. af.mil has some pictures of the current coat being wear tested.
Quote from: ddelaney103 on January 24, 2008, 11:45:23 PM
Quote from: teesquared on January 24, 2008, 11:42:40 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on January 24, 2008, 07:12:25 PM
Here's a pretty good read that I was sent a few days ago (it's from 2006):
http://www.afa.org/magazine/July2006/0706bluesuit.asp
Good grief! I hope they don't go with the "Billy Mitchell" coat! :P
That article is way OBE. af.mil has some pictures of the current coat being wear tested.
Yeah. af.mil has the Captain who is the project manager for the wear test on there. But if you compare him to the General on the first post, the belt buckles are different on the waist belt.
Which one is liked more?
The buckle for the belt is going to be custom placed by each airman for best fit. The belt itself is under question and uniforms are being tested with and without the belt.
Also, the General Officer belt is almost certain to be different than the average bear.
Quote from: SJFedor on January 25, 2008, 12:14:09 AM
Quote from: ddelaney103 on January 24, 2008, 11:45:23 PM
Quote from: teesquared on January 24, 2008, 11:42:40 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on January 24, 2008, 07:12:25 PM
Here's a pretty good read that I was sent a few days ago (it's from 2006):
http://www.afa.org/magazine/July2006/0706bluesuit.asp
Good grief! I hope they don't go with the "Billy Mitchell" coat! :P
That article is way OBE. af.mil has some pictures of the current coat being wear tested.
Yeah. af.mil has the Captain who is the project manager for the wear test on there. But if you compare him to the General on the first post, the belt buckles are different on the waist belt.
Which one is liked more?
I'm pretty sure that is the general officer belt buckle. If you dig deep enough, you'll find that it's the same one GOs wear on their pants belt.
GC
Quote from: teesquared on January 24, 2008, 11:42:40 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on January 24, 2008, 07:12:25 PM
Here's a pretty good read that I was sent a few days ago (it's from 2006):
http://www.afa.org/magazine/July2006/0706bluesuit.asp
Good grief! I hope they don't go with the "Billy Mitchell" coat! :P
The intent was just to show what the progression has been. I find it ironic that the original intent/progression was to have a uncluttered streamlined blue business suit. Then it progressively got more cluttered and such. Then McPeak say's "you know, we were supposed to have a plain blue suit, let me see what I can do" and gets dogged on for it. In all honesty, I think the McPeak coat looks better than this new one. (minus the sleeve stripes)
Quote from: jimmydeanno on January 24, 2008, 07:12:25 PM
Here's a pretty good read that I was sent a few days ago (it's from 2006):
http://www.afa.org/magazine/July2006/0706bluesuit.asp
QuoteWorld War II had been a period of relaxed dress and appearance standards, particularly in flying units. Airmen crammed their earphones over their service caps to give them a "50-mission crush" and wore cowboy boots, scarves, and items borrowed from the British and other air forces. Their flight jackets sometimes sported garish artwork, and their uniform combinations were more mix-and-match than regulation.
Service leaders lamented the lax attitudes in place during World War II, but feared that cracking down would damage morale. The assumption was once the war was over, discipline would return.
Oh, the horror of it all. Men, who went into the sky everyday who watched their friends get killed everyday and themselves knew that their days on earth were numbered, actually scoffed at the uniform regulations that were written by those who sat behind desks thousands of miles away. Yep, they sure were a undisciplined bunch who went out to their aircraft everyday, ignoring their all consuming fear of death and dismemberment and went into battle anyway.
That is the biggest load of crap I've read in years. When I was an NCO (a promotable E-6) I was assigned to a Special Forces A Detachment on the Nicaraguan border. The four star from Panama had dictated that everyone would shave daily, even the jungle. We were on four and five day patrols with the Honduran infantry, interdicting arms passing through. We disobeyed that order. First, we wore face cammie. In order to shave, we'd have to scrap it all off, shave, and reapply. That was something that would take about an hour. Next, any cut especially on the face, became infected with hours (the jungle is a nasty place). Third, any application of soap would do two things - it would leave an odor that could be smelled for about 100 meters (bad for hiding from bad guys) and it would attract mosquitoes (bad for your mental and physical health).
A spit and polish NCO in the rear (from a leg engineer unit) yelled at us for not looking like soldiers. It was the most ridiculous thing I'd seen to that point. We'd just come in from the jungle, protecting the border of an ally covered with mud, sweat, and anything else you can think of, carrying loaded weapons with double basic combat loads, and weighted down with extra batteries, water, and our own body bags (we always carried one for ourselves - if anyone got killed, we'd stash the body for later recovery). He was standing there with a canteen cup of hot coffee, clean and pressed uniform, telling us how to be soldiers. One of our team mates (a six foot four Cuban) called him every name in the book. The well manicured Sgt knew that he'd run into a bunch of guys who didn't care for his parade field army.
Such was the US Army Air Force. The folks who wrote the regulations weren't the ones who went out and died every day. The generals and other commanders in the field understood this. They knew that these guys needed something (actually anything) that would take their minds off of what they were really doing. To say that they were undisciplined shows that he's never been anywhere and never done anything.
There's an old adage: No combat ready unit ever passed inspection; no inspection ready unit ever passed combat. (Murphy's Rules of Combat)
The guy who wrote that article is an idiot.
GC
That does not explain why Hap Arnold and the generals (who seldom flew) also wore the crushed cap. The crushed cap was an affectation designed to set the Air Corps apart from the lesser Army branches, and to assert at some level a desire to be a service branch unto themselves.
When that happened in 1947, two things took place very quickly:
1. All "Pursuit" planes were re-designated "Fighter" planes. The P-51 became the F-51.
2. Crushed caps were banned.
Not to keep bringing this topic back up, but I went through the Army Officers Guide from '43 and the uniform proposed is in fact an Officers Uniform. Did anyone notice that Enlisted did not wear belts? Did anyone notice that Enlisted pocket flaps were squared, not the proposed ones. The AF is only playing to one side of the historical aspect, and that is the Officer Side. This is a huge disservice to the Vast majority of Army Air Force Enlisted Personnel, and to the ones that followed.
Either way, since most adults in CAP are Officers anyway, this has no bearing on us.
Just thought I would bring up an apparent oversight. ;)
Quote from: mikeylikey on February 04, 2008, 08:05:24 PM
Not to keep bringing this topic back up, but I went through the Army Officers Guide from '43 and the uniform proposed is in fact an Officers Uniform. Did anyone notice that Enlisted did not wear belts? Did anyone notice that Enlisted pocket flaps were squared, not the proposed ones. The AF is only playing to one side of the historical aspect, and that is the Officer Side. This is a huge disservice to the Vast majority of Army Air Force Enlisted Personnel, and to the ones that followed.
Depends on when in the war this was.
In the pre-war days, enlisted wore fabric belts on their jackets while officers wore leather "Sam Brown" belts with shoulder straps. They "dumbed down" the uniform to save money and speed production.
This was also when the Army changed from the nice overseas caps, which were like our flight caps, to the ugly overseas caps they wore up to the beret days.
The AF has always been officer centric, not even that it's pilot centric. That's not going to change regardless of how many enlisted aircrew take the fight to whomever at whatever point in history.
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 21, 2008, 04:26:51 PM
AAAAAA!!! Now I know why I don't like it... it reminds me of this:
That was actually modeled after the State Trooper uniform of Massachusetts.
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d154/mit31/Uniform%20Ref/th_IMG_1212.jpg) (http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d154/mit31/Uniform%20Ref/IMG_1212.jpg)
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d154/mit31/Uniform%20Ref/th_IMG_2644-vi.jpg) (http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d154/mit31/Uniform%20Ref/IMG_2644-vi.jpg)
Top image is an original 1944 officers regulation service coat for an 8th AF pilot. They basically tried to copy it verbatim in the initial run of the heritage coat, but made the obvious adjustments to the lapels, which could have been altered to keep some kind of point, if they had tried. My hope of hopes is that they bring back the winged prop branch insignia after the wear test. At least they are bringing back the circled US insignia for enlisted ranks, though that is late 40's, but better than the regular US insignia now.
Bottom image is an army enlisted uniform circa mid WWII... sported by me! at the 315th Psychological Operations Company Dining In several months ago. It also sports pointed lapels and a bi-swing back, and though it did not have a cloth belt, it did have a "belt-back," or half a belt on the back side of the coat.
I wore the old style service dress in high school for 4 years before transitioning to the new coat in college, and now that I'm in CAP I will get to wear the new version before too long, thank God. I also read that the USAF was going to be contracting with Brooks Brothers to offer a private purchase "tailor made" service coat for ultra material and fit... cost TBD.
Quote from: Timothy on February 15, 2008, 06:48:43 AM
At least they are bringing back the circled US insignia for enlisted ranks, though that is late 40's, but better than the regular US insignia now.
They already brought back the circled US insignia about 18 months ago.
It was one the changes made by the last Uniform Board.
I ran across this picture about the new AF service coat... got a chuckle...
Quote from: jaybird512 on March 21, 2008, 08:27:03 AM
I ran across this picture about the new AF service coat... got a chuckle...
This is not the coat selected. It was one of the choices and is being considered as a possible Honor Guard or other formal wear uniform in the future.
Quote from: LtCol White on March 21, 2008, 05:49:36 PM
Quote from: jaybird512 on March 21, 2008, 08:27:03 AM
I ran across this picture about the new AF service coat... got a chuckle...
This is not the coat selected. It was one of the choices and is being considered as a possible Honor Guard or other formal wear uniform in the future.
That doesn't make the picture any less funny....
Or maybe just to me.
Change it to "a new coat that the Air Force was looking at and may or may not use as a possible alternative to a choice they may make in the future regarding an update of the current service dress uniform or its equivalent".
Better?
Just remember... we have to get hte ABU before we get this Back-to-the future service coat. ... Brooks Bros... sheesh. One of their suits would cost me a months pay.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on March 22, 2008, 06:06:27 AM
Just remember... we have to get hte ABU before we get this Back-to-the future service coat. ... Brooks Bros... sheesh. One of their suits would cost me a months pay.
Hey... but you'll be lookin' good! ;D (Even if it puts the average joe who doesn't do 'bespoke tailoring' in the poor house! ;D)
Quote from: jaybird512 on March 22, 2008, 12:29:09 AM
Quote from: LtCol White on March 21, 2008, 05:49:36 PM
Quote from: jaybird512 on March 21, 2008, 08:27:03 AM
I ran across this picture about the new AF service coat... got a chuckle...
This is not the coat selected. It was one of the choices and is being considered as a possible Honor Guard or other formal wear uniform in the future.
That doesn't make the picture any less funny....
Or maybe just to me.
Change it to "a new coat that the Air Force was looking at and may or may not use as a possible alternative to a choice they may make in the future regarding an update of the current service dress uniform or its equivalent".
Better?
Huh ??? ???
Quote from: Grumpy on March 23, 2008, 05:14:57 AM
Quote from: jaybird512 on March 22, 2008, 12:29:09 AM
Quote from: LtCol White on March 21, 2008, 05:49:36 PM
Quote from: jaybird512 on March 21, 2008, 08:27:03 AM
I ran across this picture about the new AF service coat... got a chuckle...
This is not the coat selected. It was one of the choices and is being considered as a possible Honor Guard or other formal wear uniform in the future.
That doesn't make the picture any less funny....
Or maybe just to me.
Change it to "a new coat that the Air Force was looking at and may or may not use as a possible alternative to a choice they may make in the future regarding an update of the current service dress uniform or its equivalent".
Better?
Huh ??? ???
Yep.
Exactly.
I personally like the choker collar version, and hope it is used for something by the AF, even if it is not the "everyday" service uniform.
Quote from: NAYBOR on March 26, 2008, 02:28:37 AM
I personally like the choker collar version, and hope it is used for something by the AF, even if it is not the "everyday" service uniform.
Summer whites?
Quote from: afgeo4 on March 26, 2008, 03:09:30 AM
Quote from: NAYBOR on March 26, 2008, 02:28:37 AM
I personally like the choker collar version, and hope it is used for something by the AF, even if it is not the "everyday" service uniform.
Summer whites?
Bite your tongue!!!!
I left the whites in the Navy, gladly. I have no desire to wear them in any form in CAP!
Quote from: SarDragon on March 26, 2008, 04:43:11 AM
Quote from: afgeo4 on March 26, 2008, 03:09:30 AM
Quote from: NAYBOR on March 26, 2008, 02:28:37 AM
I personally like the choker collar version, and hope it is used for something by the AF, even if it is not the "everyday" service uniform.
Summer whites?
Bite your tongue!!!!
I left the whites in the Navy, gladly. I have no desire to wear them in any form in CAP!
I have to agree no summer whites. They're not the most flattering on all people.
Getting back ot the original pic... I think it just looks bad for two General Officers to wear anything other then the Service Cap while in Service Dress.
Save the beret for the ACUs and the flight cap for the flight suit...
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on March 27, 2008, 09:53:54 PM
Getting back ot the original pic... I think it just looks bad for two General Officers to wear anything other then the Service Cap while in Service Dress.
Save the beret for the ACUs and the flight cap for the flight suit...
Umm.......what? Why?
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on March 27, 2008, 09:53:54 PM
Getting back ot the original pic... I think it just looks bad for two General Officers to wear anything other then the Service Cap while in Service Dress.
Save the beret for the ACUs and the flight cap for the flight suit...
Army no longer has a Service Cap for the green Service Dress (Class A's). They still have a service cap for the dress blues though. When the greens are eliminated most likely this June, the Blues will be the only service dress and Officers will be back in the Service Cap, while enlisted and I think Junior NCO's will be in the beret.
As far as the AF, goes, I can't comment. They still have a Service Cap, so I am unsure why a 4 star would not be in it.
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 27, 2008, 11:16:43 PM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on March 27, 2008, 09:53:54 PM
Getting back ot the original pic... I think it just looks bad for two General Officers to wear anything other then the Service Cap while in Service Dress.
Save the beret for the ACUs and the flight cap for the flight suit...
Army no longer has a Service Cap for the green Service Dress (Class A's). They still have a service cap for the dress blues though. When the greens are eliminated most likely this June, the Blues will be the only service dress and Officers will be back in the Service Cap, while enlisted and I think Junior NCO's will be in the beret.
As far as the AF, goes, I can't comment. They still have a Service Cap, so I am unsure why a 4 star would not be in it.
Proberly because Air Force Generals don't dress with thought of what some civilian volunteers think that a General should look like.
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 27, 2008, 11:16:43 PM
.... Officers will be back in the Service Cap, while enlisted and I think Junior NCO's will be in the beret.
From the last message I've seen, enlisted wear beret, NCO and up wear service cap. I imagine they're giving the enlisted a break.
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 27, 2008, 11:16:43 PMAs far as the AF, goes, I can't comment. They still have a Service Cap, so I am unsure why a 4 star would not be in it.
I think the only time I ever saw any generals wearing flight cap in service dress on a regular basis was the McPeak era. After he was gone, and Fogleman brought it back, almost every general I've ever seen since had on a service cap.
Quote from: Hawk200 on March 28, 2008, 02:01:05 AM
I think the only time I ever saw any generals wearing flight cap in service dress on a regular basis was the McPeak era. After he was gone, and Fogleman brought it back, almost every general I've ever seen since had on a service cap.
That's because the "Fighter Pilot Mafia" didn't like Service Caps.
Are we sure this is the adopted "Hap Arnold Heritage" uniform, there was another one with a mandarin collar and belt more like the USMC uniform of the Second World War, very nice looking. I doubt CAP will get them for years, we're stuck with the cheap business suit for a while longer.
Yes they (http://www.af.mil/news/story_media.asp?id=123061371) are sure.
I still don't like the belt. Plus, the AF knows this is based on the "HAP" which was an Army uniform right?? For you AF folks, the AF Portal has a link to give your comments about all AF uniforms and a survey, if you haven't checked it, you should. I would like to push my personal feelings if I could on those of you who may comment on it. 1....no belt! 2.....bring back the air corps branch insignia to the Officers uniform (thats historical right?) 3.... commissioning braid should be black. 4......perhaps re-introduce the braid to the officers pants (thats what was worn on this uniform in the 1940's) 5.......no necktie for women 6........make service cap mandatory for officers, flight cap for enlisted.
Thats it. I tried to "sneak" into the virtual uniform board, even put my CAC in like it told me too, but it came back and said "Not AUTH, non-AF MEM". So maybe someone else can take my suggestions.
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 30, 2008, 06:00:56 PM
5.......no necktie for women
MikeyLikey,
Why no necktie for women? I honestly don't mean this in any nasty kind of way, but, what's it to you? Why does it matter to you if women wear the neck tie? Plenty of women wouldn't mind wearing the stuff the guys get to wear (yes, "GET" to wear) like pockets in shirts and tie tacks on ties, and all that stuff. Maybe women should decide what should be worn for the women's uniform. Just MHO. :angel:
- Tracey
Quote from: tjaxe on April 04, 2008, 07:40:16 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 30, 2008, 06:00:56 PM
5.......no necktie for women
MikeyLikey,
Why no necktie for women? I honestly don't mean this in any nasty kind of way, but, what's it to you? Why does it matter to you if women wear the neck tie? Plenty of women wouldn't mind wearing the stuff the guys get to wear (yes, "GET" to wear) like pockets in shirts and tie tacks on ties, and all that stuff. Maybe women should decide what should be worn for the women's uniform. Just MHO. :angel:
- Tracey
Tracey,
I see where you're coming from. However as far as the AF stlye uniforms go we have to where them the way the AF dictates.
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 30, 2008, 06:00:56 PM
I still don't like the belt. Plus, the AF knows this is based on the "HAP" which was an Army uniform right?? For you AF folks, the AF Portal has a link to give your comments about all AF uniforms and a survey, if you haven't checked it, you should. I would like to push my personal feelings if I could on those of you who may comment on it. 1....no belt! 2.....bring back the air corps branch insignia to the Officers uniform (thats historical right?) 3.... commissioning braid should be black. 4......perhaps re-introduce the braid to the officers pants (thats what was worn on this uniform in the 1940's) 5.......no necktie for women 6........make service cap mandatory for officers, flight cap for enlisted.
Thats it. I tried to "sneak" into the virtual uniform board, even put my CAC in like it told me too, but it came back and said "Not AUTH, non-AF MEM". So maybe someone else can take my suggestions.
4. The stripe on the pants is an Army tradition that dates back to when officers and others rode horses. Having a stripe allowed the guys who were riding in LPC's (Leather Personnel Carriers) to determine who was who. Artillerymen, who were also mounted, wore red pants, and were called "Redlegs" as a result. The AF dropped the trouser stripe because they wanted to start making thier own traditions, and horse cavalry and airplanes didn't seem to mix.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 04, 2008, 09:33:43 PM
..........and horse cavalry and airplanes didn't seem to mix.
That would be an awesome sight to see....a horse with a parachute pushed out of a C-130.
Quote from: tjaxe on April 04, 2008, 07:40:16 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 30, 2008, 06:00:56 PM
5.......no necktie for women
MikeyLikey,
Why no necktie for women? I honestly don't mean this in any nasty kind of way, but, what's it to you? Why does it matter to you if women wear the neck tie? Plenty of women wouldn't mind wearing the stuff the guys get to wear (yes, "GET" to wear) like pockets in shirts and tie tacks on ties, and all that stuff. Maybe women should decide what should be worn for the women's uniform. Just MHO. :angel:
- Tracey
The AF is starting to move in that direction.
Women can wear the male flight cap and I think the Service Cap will be next.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 04, 2008, 09:33:43 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 30, 2008, 06:00:56 PM
I still don't like the belt. Plus, the AF knows this is based on the "HAP" which was an Army uniform right?? For you AF folks, the AF Portal has a link to give your comments about all AF uniforms and a survey, if you haven't checked it, you should. I would like to push my personal feelings if I could on those of you who may comment on it. 1....no belt! 2.....bring back the air corps branch insignia to the Officers uniform (thats historical right?) 3.... commissioning braid should be black. 4......perhaps re-introduce the braid to the officers pants (thats what was worn on this uniform in the 1940's) 5.......no necktie for women 6........make service cap mandatory for officers, flight cap for enlisted.
Thats it. I tried to "sneak" into the virtual uniform board, even put my CAC in like it told me too, but it came back and said "Not AUTH, non-AF MEM". So maybe someone else can take my suggestions.
4. The stripe on the pants is an Army tradition that dates back to when officers and others rode horses. Having a stripe allowed the guys who were riding in LPC's (Leather Personnel Carriers) to determine who was who. Artillerymen, who were also mounted, wore red pants, and were called "Redlegs" as a result. The AF dropped the trouser stripe because they wanted to start making thier own traditions, and horse cavalry and airplanes didn't seem to mix.
The commissioning stripe on pants isn't unique to the Army or to the United States military at all actually, so saying that it came from the US Army cavalry is somewhat inaccurate. Officers wear stripes on pants in most of the world's militaries and have for centuries. I don't know what the exact origin of this tradition is, but it simply cannot be the US cavalry. It's been around much longer than that.
As far as "bloodstripes" on pants is concerned:
The earliest recorded instance goes back to the middle ages where lords/knights would wear a stripe on their pants to distinguish themselves as knights (aka officers) when not wearing the armor.
Quote from: afgeo4 on April 06, 2008, 05:38:10 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 04, 2008, 09:33:43 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 30, 2008, 06:00:56 PM
I still don't like the belt. Plus, the AF knows this is based on the "HAP" which was an Army uniform right?? For you AF folks, the AF Portal has a link to give your comments about all AF uniforms and a survey, if you haven't checked it, you should. I would like to push my personal feelings if I could on those of you who may comment on it. 1....no belt! 2.....bring back the air corps branch insignia to the Officers uniform (thats historical right?) 3.... commissioning braid should be black. 4......perhaps re-introduce the braid to the officers pants (thats what was worn on this uniform in the 1940's) 5.......no necktie for women 6........make service cap mandatory for officers, flight cap for enlisted.
Thats it. I tried to "sneak" into the virtual uniform board, even put my CAC in like it told me too, but it came back and said "Not AUTH, non-AF MEM". So maybe someone else can take my suggestions.
4. The stripe on the pants is an Army tradition that dates back to when officers and others rode horses. Having a stripe allowed the guys who were riding in LPC's (Leather Personnel Carriers) to determine who was who. Artillerymen, who were also mounted, wore red pants, and were called "Redlegs" as a result. The AF dropped the trouser stripe because they wanted to start making thier own traditions, and horse cavalry and airplanes didn't seem to mix.
The commissioning stripe on pants isn't unique to the Army or to the United States military at all actually, so saying that it came from the US Army cavalry is somewhat inaccurate. Officers wear stripes on pants in most of the world's militaries and have for centuries. I don't know what the exact origin of this tradition is, but it simply cannot be the US cavalry. It's been around much longer than that.
I didn't say "US Army." It is an Army tradition for the reason I stated. Foot-mobile troops could identify horse-mounted leaders. Foreign armies needed to identify their horse-mounted leaders, too.
Quote from: mikeylikey on April 05, 2008, 01:29:35 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 04, 2008, 09:33:43 PM
..........and horse cavalry and airplanes didn't seem to mix.
That would be an awesome sight to see....a horse with a parachute pushed out of a C-130.
Wasn't there an episode of "WKRP in Cincinnati" with a plot like that? Oh, it was turkeys from a helicopter on Thanksgiving... for all you young ones... and newsman Les Nessman screaming, "Oh, the humanity!" from the mall parking lot where they fell.
On this uniform the USAF is trying to go back to it's roots, I wonder if we too should go back to some of ours. Given the fact that we are older than the AF, we should be able to come up with some kinda blast from the past that looks good on that kind of Coat.
Quote from: RickFranz on April 06, 2008, 07:10:40 PM
On this uniform the USAF is trying to go back to it's roots, I wonder if we too should go back to some of ours. Given the fact that we are older than the AF, we should be able to come up with some kinda blast from the past that looks good on that kind of Coat.
Highly unlikely that'll happen. Unless they bring back wing patches... ;D
CAP go back to it's roots in uniforms? Which Army uniform are you referring to? Pinks and green? Khaki uniforms? 1505's. oh wait that was an Air Force uniform.
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on April 06, 2008, 07:45:32 PM
Quote from: RickFranz on April 06, 2008, 07:10:40 PM
On this uniform the USAF is trying to go back to it's roots, I wonder if we too should go back to some of ours. Given the fact that we are older than the AF, we should be able to come up with some kinda blast from the past that looks good on that kind of Coat.
Highly unlikely that'll happen. Unless they bring back wing patches... ;D
No wing patches -- try the CAP patch, the round one from World War II that had the "CADET" tab below for cadets.
I personally hope they leave the existing service coat. There's nothing wrong with it.
I think I remember seeing an older style of CAP Pilot wings and collar brass, things like that. Look at the design and update it. Things like that, I think we have enough uniforms without bringing back pinks or greens (although I really did enjoy wearing the 1505 in the summer in New Mexico). ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on April 06, 2008, 09:12:35 PM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on April 06, 2008, 07:45:32 PM
Quote from: RickFranz on April 06, 2008, 07:10:40 PM
On this uniform the USAF is trying to go back to it's roots, I wonder if we too should go back to some of ours. Given the fact that we are older than the AF, we should be able to come up with some kinda blast from the past that looks good on that kind of Coat.
Highly unlikely that'll happen. Unless they bring back wing patches... ;D
No wing patches -- try the CAP patch, the round one from World War II that had the "CADET" tab below for cadets.
I personally hope they leave the existing service coat. There's nothing wrong with it.
Until they run out of supplies for it....
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on April 06, 2008, 04:49:17 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on April 05, 2008, 01:29:35 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 04, 2008, 09:33:43 PM
..........and horse cavalry and airplanes didn't seem to mix.
That would be an awesome sight to see....a horse with a parachute pushed out of a C-130.
Wasn't there an episode of "WKRP in Cincinnati" with a plot like that? Oh, it was turkeys from a helicopter on Thanksgiving... for all you young ones... and newsman Les Nessman screaming, "Oh, the humanity!" from the mall parking lot where they fell.
And... for the not-so-young-but-younger-than-me, Les Nessman's bit was a parody of the radio newsman who kept broadcasting during the Hindenburg disaster.
Quote from: RickFranz on April 06, 2008, 07:10:40 PM
On this uniform the USAF is trying to go back to it's roots, I wonder if we too should go back to some of ours. Given the fact that we are older than the AF, we should be able to come up with some kinda blast from the past that looks good on that kind of Coat.
That was MY idea a few months back, Rick.
I suggested a "CAP Corporate Hap Arnold Heritage Uniform" since Hap Arnold was a part of our heritage too. Make it a "Corporate" thread to replace the TPU, and make it sufficiently different from the AF version of the HAH uniform that they will buy into it as ours alone. That way we would really return to our roots, with CAP wearing a modified version of the USAF uniform, and our meetings would no longer look like NATO conferences.
But, I would hate to give up the TPU. I wear it around and talk with a funny accent hoping I will run into a CIA or State Department guy who will give me foreign aid thinking I'm a third-world dictator.
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on April 06, 2008, 04:49:17 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on April 05, 2008, 01:29:35 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 04, 2008, 09:33:43 PM
..........and horse cavalry and airplanes didn't seem to mix.
That would be an awesome sight to see....a horse with a parachute pushed out of a C-130.
Wasn't there an episode of "WKRP in Cincinnati" with a plot like that? Oh, it was turkeys from a helicopter on Thanksgiving... for all you young ones... and newsman Les Nessman screaming, "Oh, the humanity!" from the mall parking lot where they fell.
You are correct. Les Nesman didn't know turkeys don't fly, and released them from an airplane as some sort of publicity stunt. If I recall correctly he was broadcasting from his news scooter. That was good TV. ;D
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 07, 2008, 01:10:25 AM
Quote from: RickFranz on April 06, 2008, 07:10:40 PM
On this uniform the USAF is trying to go back to it's roots, I wonder if we too should go back to some of ours. Given the fact that we are older than the AF, we should be able to come up with some kinda blast from the past that looks good on that kind of Coat.
That was MY idea a few months back, Rick.
I suggested a "CAP Corporate Hap Arnold Heritage Uniform" since Hap Arnold was a part of our heritage too. Make it a "Corporate" thread to replace the TPU, and make it sufficiently different from the AF version of the HAH uniform that they will buy into it as ours alone. That way we would really return to our roots, with CAP wearing a modified version of the USAF uniform, and our meetings would no longer look like NATO conferences.
But, I would hate to give up the TPU. I wear it around and talk with a funny accent hoping I will run into a CIA or State Department guy who will give me foreign aid thinking I'm a third-world dictator.
All you need is a swagger stick and a pencil-thin moustache. :D
GC
Quote from: Gunner C on April 07, 2008, 01:16:53 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 07, 2008, 01:10:25 AM
Quote from: RickFranz on April 06, 2008, 07:10:40 PM
On this uniform the USAF is trying to go back to it's roots, I wonder if we too should go back to some of ours. Given the fact that we are older than the AF, we should be able to come up with some kinda blast from the past that looks good on that kind of Coat.
That was MY idea a few months back, Rick.
I suggested a "CAP Corporate Hap Arnold Heritage Uniform" since Hap Arnold was a part of our heritage too. Make it a "Corporate" thread to replace the TPU, and make it sufficiently different from the AF version of the HAH uniform that they will buy into it as ours alone. That way we would really return to our roots, with CAP wearing a modified version of the USAF uniform, and our meetings would no longer look like NATO conferences.
But, I would hate to give up the TPU. I wear it around and talk with a funny accent hoping I will run into a CIA or State Department guy who will give me foreign aid thinking I'm a third-world dictator.
All you need is a swagger stick and a pencil-thin moustache. :D
GC
And what makes ju tink we don' have such things? We are a poor country, but we have our pride. I have a swagger stick and even the peasants can afford such moustaches!
But enough of this... I have a busy schedule today denying people their human rights.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 07, 2008, 09:13:59 PM
Quote from: Gunner C on April 07, 2008, 01:16:53 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 07, 2008, 01:10:25 AM
Quote from: RickFranz on April 06, 2008, 07:10:40 PM
On this uniform the USAF is trying to go back to it's roots, I wonder if we too should go back to some of ours. Given the fact that we are older than the AF, we should be able to come up with some kinda blast from the past that looks good on that kind of Coat.
That was MY idea a few months back, Rick.
I suggested a "CAP Corporate Hap Arnold Heritage Uniform" since Hap Arnold was a part of our heritage too. Make it a "Corporate" thread to replace the TPU, and make it sufficiently different from the AF version of the HAH uniform that they will buy into it as ours alone. That way we would really return to our roots, with CAP wearing a modified version of the USAF uniform, and our meetings would no longer look like NATO conferences.
But, I would hate to give up the TPU. I wear it around and talk with a funny accent hoping I will run into a CIA or State Department guy who will give me foreign aid thinking I'm a third-world dictator.
All you need is a swagger stick and a pencil-thin moustache. :D
GC
And what makes ju tink we don' have such things? We are a poor country, but we have our pride. I have a swagger stick and even the peasants can afford such moustaches!
But enough of this... I have a busy schedule today denying people their human rights.
Güt gemacht! Machen wir weiter! (oops) No hay problema. ;D
GC
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 07, 2008, 09:13:59 PM
Quote from: Gunner C on April 07, 2008, 01:16:53 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 07, 2008, 01:10:25 AM
Quote from: RickFranz on April 06, 2008, 07:10:40 PM
On this uniform the USAF is trying to go back to it's roots, I wonder if we too should go back to some of ours. Given the fact that we are older than the AF, we should be able to come up with some kinda blast from the past that looks good on that kind of Coat.
That was MY idea a few months back, Rick.
I suggested a "CAP Corporate Hap Arnold Heritage Uniform" since Hap Arnold was a part of our heritage too. Make it a "Corporate" thread to replace the TPU, and make it sufficiently different from the AF version of the HAH uniform that they will buy into it as ours alone. That way we would really return to our roots, with CAP wearing a modified version of the USAF uniform, and our meetings would no longer look like NATO conferences.
But, I would hate to give up the TPU. I wear it around and talk with a funny accent hoping I will run into a CIA or State Department guy who will give me foreign aid thinking I'm a third-world dictator.
All you need is a swagger stick and a pencil-thin moustache. :D
GC
And what makes ju tink we don' have such things? We are a poor country, but we have our pride. I have a swagger stick and even the peasants can afford such moustaches!
But enough of this... I have a busy schedule today denying people their human rights.
Major, it might just be the heavy medication, but I think that's possibly one of the funniest posts I've read on this forum.
maybe we can keep the entire uniform the same, but have the jacket made in khaki as a corporate uniform. Wear it with CAP insignia instead of US and ta-da! Historic, yet concurrent with the Air Force. Not such a bad look with blue pants either.
Khaki jacket with blue pants?
Are you drunk or do you live in Greenwich Village?
Nah, he's probably been eating those "special" Rice Krispie Treats again. :D
Quote from: afgeo4 on April 13, 2008, 07:01:34 AM
maybe we can keep the entire uniform the same, but have the jacket made in khaki as a corporate uniform. Wear it with CAP insignia instead of US and ta-da! Historic, yet concurrent with the Air Force. Not such a bad look with blue pants either.
I don't think that color combination would carry a positive image. It's been done.
(http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/history/virtual/portrait/hitler2B.gif)
We should be careful of what we do with uniforms. They're not always a good thing.
GC
Quote from: Gunner C on April 13, 2008, 01:31:34 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on April 13, 2008, 07:01:34 AM
maybe we can keep the entire uniform the same, but have the jacket made in khaki as a corporate uniform. Wear it with CAP insignia instead of US and ta-da! Historic, yet concurrent with the Air Force. Not such a bad look with blue pants either.
I don't think that color combination would carry a positive image. It's been done.
(http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/history/virtual/portrait/hitler2B.gif)
We should be careful of what we do with uniforms. They're not always a good thing.
GC
Hey...
Hitler's wearing a TPU!
Goring is fat, but in Regular Luftwaffe uniform!
No wonder they lost!
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 13, 2008, 02:07:37 PMHey...
Hitler's wearing a TPU!
Goring is fat, but in Regular Luftwaffe uniform!
Not quite... Göring is wearing the unique
Reichsmarschall des Grossdeutschen Reiches uniform. He stopped wearing regular Luftwaffe service dress when he got promoted to Reichsmarschall in 1940. (Göring's confiscated Reichsmarschall's baton and staff are now at the West Point museum.)
Hitler's wearing his wartime service uniform he adopted in 1939 at the outbreak of WWII. Note the casual pose of Hitler - he's bracing his right arm so as to not make his Parkinson's disease obvious.
Martin Bormann (right) is wearing SS service dress. From looking at Bormann's SS collar rank patches the picture must have been taken around 1943 or 1944. (The oakleaves on SS general ranks were made more angular.)
Why does everything here seem to migrate to being about the SS, or the Nazis, or Germany?
Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law).
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 13, 2008, 08:04:39 AM
Khaki jacket with blue pants?
Are you drunk or do you live in Greenwich Village?
2 birthday parties in one day... I actually was drunk. I don't live in Greenwich Village! I'm a Brooklyn boy!
Quote from: MIKE on April 13, 2008, 04:34:29 PM
Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law).
I wasn't trying to degenerate the discussion into a "you're a Nazi . . ." I was just showing that our uniform designs haven't been particularly well thought through - and the two color suggestion was a pretty good opportunity to show how easily it can go badly. I have too many relatives who got turned into lamp shades to take the "nazi card" lightly. I was just making a point.
GC
Quote from: Gunner C on April 13, 2008, 06:39:37 PM
Quote from: MIKE on April 13, 2008, 04:34:29 PM
Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law).
I wasn't trying to degenerate the discussion into a "you're a Nazi . . ." I was just showing that our uniform designs haven't been particularly well thought through - and the two color suggestion was a pretty good opportunity to show how easily it can go badly. I have too many relatives who got turned into lamp shades to take the "nazi card" lightly. I was just making a point.
GC
Yeah......that's a poor rationalization.......
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on April 13, 2008, 02:25:18 PM
Hitler's wearing his wartime service uniform he adopted in 1939 at the outbreak of WWII. Note the casual pose of Hitler - he's bracing his right arm so as to not make his Parkinson's disease obvious.
Actually, that picture was taken later in the day of July 20, 1944, when Count von Stauffenberg's bomb attempt on Hitler's life took place. Look closely at the Fuehrer's left hand and you'll see a bandage; he had one placed on his hand after the bomb attack. Yes, Hitler did have Parkinson's disease, but that day he was more shook up by the bomb under the table than by the other shakes.
As for Goering, he is indeed wearing his Reichsmarschall's uniform. And Bormann's uniform has a white armband on the left sleeve (you can't see it because it's behind him) signifying Bormann was an honorary SS general rather than a real one.
Jack
Quote from: JThemann on April 13, 2008, 07:26:31 PM
Quote from: Gunner C on April 13, 2008, 06:39:37 PM
Quote from: MIKE on April 13, 2008, 04:34:29 PM
Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law).
I wasn't trying to degenerate the discussion into a "you're a Nazi . . ." I was just showing that our uniform designs haven't been particularly well thought through - and the two color suggestion was a pretty good opportunity to show how easily it can go badly. I have too many relatives who got turned into lamp shades to take the "nazi card" lightly. I was just making a point.
GC
Yeah......that's a poor rationalization.......
That's not a rationalization. That's the truth. If you're accusing me of prevarication, then we have a larger problem.
Quote from: Gunner C on April 13, 2008, 11:42:53 PM
................If you're accusing me of prevarication..........
Why must so many people use words I have to go look up in a dictionary??
For those of you also confused by todays word (
prevarication),
prevarication means
get out of telling truth: to avoid giving a direct and honest answer or opinion, or a clear and truthful account of a situation, especially by quibbling or being deliberately ambiguous or misleadingBack to the Service Coat........
All I want to know is this: will the uniform shop at the exchange allow me to trade in my current Service Dress for this new edition?
I only wear it once a month (so any servicibility clause would see me in the current uniform through until Im old enough to retire)
and it would seem ashame for the amount that I spent on it.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on April 14, 2008, 07:01:21 AM
All I want to know is this: will the uniform shop at the exchange allow me to trade in my current Service Dress for this new edition?
I only wear it once a month (so any servicibility clause would see me in the current uniform through until Im old enough to retire)
and it would seem ashame for the amount that I spent on it.
I......don't think so.
According to AF Times, all work on the new AF heritage coat has been put on the backburner in favor of fixing issues with various combat and work-related uniforms.
Good for them. Means we CAP'ers get to save our money a little longer. I just got my current blue suit coat. I'm not about to fork over another 100+ on one of these... Though I'll admit I do like them to some extent.
Quote from: RiverAux on May 17, 2009, 02:47:57 PM
According to AF Times, all work on the new AF heritage coat has been put on the backburner in favor of fixing issues with various combat and work-related uniforms.
Holy common-sense, Batman!I'm kind of hoping that ABU version 2 is out by the time we are auth'd to wear them.
Anyone seen the new JSF flight suit? it's essentially the same, save for the omission of the knife pocket on the leg, and some kind of lanyard-rig for the pilot's arms so they don't flail about during ejection. It's also made from a new weave of nomex, more microfiber-like that resists abrasion and pilling.
The basic design of 'Bag' has remained virtually unchanged for 50 years; tells you something, doesn't it?
Quote from: O-Rex on May 18, 2009, 12:09:40 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on May 17, 2009, 02:47:57 PM
According to AF Times, all work on the new AF heritage coat has been put on the backburner in favor of fixing issues with various combat and work-related uniforms.
Holy common-sense, Batman!
:clap: :clap: :clap:
A dress coat isn't as important as fixing problems in a utility uniform :o.
Quote from: RiverAux on May 17, 2009, 02:47:57 PM
According to AF Times, all work on the new AF heritage coat has been put on the backburner in favor of fixing issues with various combat and work-related uniforms.
The 'heritage' service dress jacket was the baby of the previous AF chief of staff, Gen Moseley. As soon as he retired it was quietly shelved.
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 20, 2008, 03:59:37 AM
I know this isn't total news, but the Air Force had last year made a decision on the new service coat. Does anyone know details of the wear test or is it already being phased in?
Today on www.af.mil I noticed the article on USAFE change of command and in the photo, the incoming CC, General Brady, is wearing just that uniform. Looks odd... don't know if I like it after all.
Correct me if I'm wrong, and it may be different in the Army D&C FM than the USAF(doubt it) but the General salute looks a little off . But a little company grade officer like me wont tell him hes wrong. ::)
Quote from: USADOD on May 19, 2009, 08:33:28 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 20, 2008, 03:59:37 AM
I know this isn't total news, but the Air Force had last year made a decision on the new service coat. Does anyone know details of the wear test or is it already being phased in?
Today on www.af.mil I noticed the article on USAFE change of command and in the photo, the incoming CC, General Brady, is wearing just that uniform. Looks odd... don't know if I like it after all.
Correct me if I'm wrong, and it may be different in the Army D&C FM than the USAF(doubt it) but the General salute looks a little off . But a little company grade officer like me wont tell him hes wrong. ::)
Not if you value your life or your career... >:D
By tradition, general and flag officers are entitled to wear uniforms of their own design; most will wear standard issue uniforms but many do become wear-testers for proposed uniform concepts. Popular among Air Force general officers is a blue jacket similar in design to the old MA-1 flight jacket. Of course, stars, name and 'universal management badge' (read: rated aircrew wings) are included.
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on May 19, 2009, 09:09:44 PM
Quote from: USADOD on May 19, 2009, 08:33:28 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 20, 2008, 03:59:37 AM
But a little company grade officer like me wont tell him hes wrong. ::)
Keep in mind you're not a company grade officer...
(unless you're an officer in the military, then I stand corrected)
Quote from: MSgt Van on May 20, 2009, 03:51:29 PM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on May 19, 2009, 09:09:44 PM
Quote from: USADOD on May 19, 2009, 08:33:28 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 20, 2008, 03:59:37 AM
But a little company grade officer like me wont tell him hes wrong. ::)
Keep in mind you're not a company grade officer...
(unless you're an officer in the military, then I stand corrected)
You are right.
Chuck is a SQUADRON grade officer. Company grade officers are in the Army and Marines.
As an answer to the call for a single service uniform combination,including a dress uniform, that would be Heritage Uniform -why don't we just go back the the AAC "pinks"? They look good, and are what we originaly wore.
Quote from: tarheel gumby on May 21, 2009, 01:51:58 PM
...why don't we just go back the the AAC "pinks"? They look good, and are what we originally wore.
You mean going back into an Army Uniform?? Wow....look out for some heated responses from those that hate everything army!
Quote from: Spike on May 21, 2009, 03:23:03 PM
Quote from: tarheel gumby on May 21, 2009, 01:51:58 PM
...why don't we just go back the the AAC "pinks"? They look good, and are what we originally wore.
You mean going back into an Army Uniform?? Wow....look out for some heated responses from those that hate everything army!
I'd like to know who it is here "that hates everything army!". There are a number of active duty and citizen soldiers on this board, myself included. As for those that aren't, I don't think anyone has any issues with Army folks.
Quote from: Spike on May 21, 2009, 03:23:03 PM
Quote from: tarheel gumby on May 21, 2009, 01:51:58 PM
...why don't we just go back the the AAC "pinks"? They look good, and are what we originally wore.
You mean going back into an Army Uniform?? Wow....look out for some heated responses from those that hate everything army!
??? Why would anybody hate the Army? Former NC ARNG myself (95 B)
Sure why not seems that we have alot of people that seem to want to distance us from the AF
^ Looking through previous posts from many, I get a sense that there are those that dislike the "military" side of CAP, and those that do dislike Army references even more.
Quote from: tarheel gumby on May 21, 2009, 01:51:58 PM
As an answer to the call for a single service uniform combination,including a dress uniform, that would be Heritage Uniform -why don't we just go back the the AAC "pinks"? They look good, and are what we originaly wore.
Hehe... the Pinks and Greens also had a cape that was part of the Mess Dress Ensemble.
Can you imagine what that would look like....
hmm... that actually might look pretty [darn] good.
Hawk, Kach... you are both retired Army.... any experience with this outfit?
Oops
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on May 22, 2009, 05:38:40 AM
Quote from: tarheel gumby on May 21, 2009, 01:51:58 PM
As an answer to the call for a single service uniform combination,including a dress uniform, that would be Heritage Uniform -why don't we just go back the the AAC "pinks"? They look good, and are what we originaly wore.
Hehe... the Pinks and Greens also had a cape that was part of the Mess Dress Ensemble.
Can you imagine what that would look like....
hmm... that actually might look pretty [darn] good.
Hawk, Kach... you are both retired Army.... any experience with this outfit?
{Whippersnappers...}
For starters, not retired, still currently serving (I'm at 20+ years presently). On my way back from Iraq right now.
Second, no experience, and don't recall reading about it in some of my historical studies. Kach might be able to tell you. (Couldn't resist Kach)
The last Army officer named Kachenmeister to wear pinks and greens was 1st Lt. Richard L. Kachenmeister, my father. He was a bombardier on B-29's, and remained in the National Guard after the end of World War II. When the Air Force broke out of the Army he was faced with the decision to either drive for more than 100 miles to a base that had bombers, or remain in the Army and branch-transfer to the infantry.
He chose option 2, and soon came to reget his decision. He learned what the infantry is about at the Infantry School at Ft. Benning.
When the child destined to become Major John Richard Kachenmeister was born, he used the issue of dependency to petition for a discharge. It was granted in December of 1949.
The next year, 1950, saw the beginning of the Korean War, and his unit was mobilized and went to war without him.
But, although I never wore the pinks and greens, I am pretty sure there was no cape worn with that uniform. The cape was worn only with the Army Dress Blue uniform.
Kach is correct, there was no cape with the pinks and green uniform. There was a cape with the formal mess dress uniform. As far as I can remember reading, I don't see where pinks and green was worn by any other than the Army Air Corp/Army Air Force. Ground pounders wore other variations of the uniform. AAF and CAP did wear pink and greens during the 1944-45 period and possibly up to 1947 when the Army Air Force split into seperate branch.
before the pinks and greens the Army Air Corps Class A uniform was an American copy of the British Cavalry Uniform. The Air Corps wore jodhpurs (bloused trouser) Sam Brown sword belts, tunic collars, knee high boots... that was the standard class A until Pinks and Greens (and never worn by CAP by the way) The Pinks and Greens were rakish and quite fashionable.
Why I bring it to your attention is - It gives you a true look at the beginnings of military flight. All pilots were signal corps - cavalry assigned. All pilots were messengers (at least in the beginning) This uniform tells the story in a most succinct way. Although the Billy Mitchell was 1925, this cavalry uniform persisted until 1939.
Quote from: BillB on May 22, 2009, 11:18:42 AM
Kach is correct, there was no cape with the pinks and green uniform. There was a cape with the formal mess dress uniform. As far as I can remember reading, I don't see where pinks and green was worn by any other than the Army Air Corp/Army Air Force. Ground pounders wore other variations of the uniform. AAF and CAP did wear pink and greens during the 1944-45 period and possibly up to 1947 when the Army Air Force split into seperate branch.
Based on some of my studies, pinks and greens were worn by the Air Force up until about '49. Insignia from both sides were worn on either uniform, and the hodge podge could be as bad as CAP is now. Air Force insignia worn on Army uniforms, Army insignia on some of the Air Force transition uniforms. A real mess.
Unfortunately, we don't have the "seasoned" members still around that remembers those days.
Here's Curtis LeMay in his 1948 Strategic Air Command Uniform. Uniform was called
straight blue, aka "True Blue":
http://www.strategic-air-command.com/people/images/lemay-01.jpg
AND here he is with his end of WW2 uniform. Notice dark tie and jacket match.
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/020903-o-9999b-105.jpg
This gives you a pretty clear view of the changes between 1945 and '48.
Here's a picture from 12 O'Clock High. Dean Jagger on the left is in dark shirt
tan tie. Gregory Peck on right is in Pinks, Greens, with tan tie and shirt combination.
http://robie2008.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/12.jpg
I imagine that there was a bit of cross over between the Pinks and Greens and the clean AF Blues. As in a phase out period. For instance, the Air Corps actively suppressed the dark shirts
with the Pink and Greens after 1943. If you were stationed in Britain you ignored that suppression -- if you were in the Pacific, you wore the tan on tan shirt combination or
wore a complete set of suntans all year round, provided you were in the tropics. Therefore, suntans with sunglasses (Pacific theater being the only active war after Germany was defeated) became the cool uniform to wear in '45- '46.
However, the Air Corps was fazing out the Pink and Greens as soon as WW2 (Europe) was over.
The Air Corps decided they didn't like the 3 tones of the Pinks and Greens/ dark shirt combination. They went to the cleaner one tone or 2 tone uniform... the clean dress blues Air Force circa 1948 -- was considered a one tone uniform.
Here is the real history folks!
http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/PopTopics/uniform.htm (http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/PopTopics/uniform.htm)
http://www.af.mil/news/story_media.asp?id=123147531 (http://www.af.mil/news/story_media.asp?id=123147531)
http://www.spangdahlem.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123114141 (http://www.spangdahlem.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123114141)
PLUS if you search this forum, you will find a vast array of AF uniform history links.
Or...
Go to Blockbuster tonight and rent:
1. The Big Lift
2. Jet Pilot
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on May 22, 2009, 09:22:21 PM
Or...
Go to Blockbuster tonight and rent:
1. The Big Lift
2. Jet Pilot
3. A Gathering of Eagles
4. Strategic Air Command
My favorite uniform in 1963 was the old class B Blue Wool Shirt, with epaulets. The tie was worn tucked in. That was a good looking uniform.
Join the Coast Guard or the Aux. and you can wear it if you can find a Winter Dress Blue shirt in your size. I can't, otherwise I would have the uniform already.
What exactly does this have to do with the new USAF Heritage Service Dress?
Quote from: MIKE on May 23, 2009, 07:42:56 PM
Join the Coast Guard or the Aux. and you can wear it if you can find a Winter Dress Blue shirt in your size. I can't, otherwise I would have the uniform already.
What exactly does this have to do with the new USAF Heritage Service Dress?
Nothing. And I'm surprised you haven't put this one out of it's misery already.