CAP Talk

I think it's about 5 to 6 years before we get them, as it will take a while for AF to all get them, then creating all the CAP regs written and approved.

I figure three to four. It seems that's what it took for BDU's. The CAP unit that was local to me was in them about three years after the AF ceased to issue them. (I wasn't a member at the time, they met across the street from my barracks.)

CAP folks were wearing BDUs at my unit in Japan when I left in 1989. The phase out date for the fatigues was 1 Jan 1996, so it took longer than 3 or 4 years. I don't recall when wear actually started, because I was still wearing the fatigues when I left, and had just rejoined in 1987.

What about the "never" botton?

Who would think that this would be a good time to tansition to the just the BBDUs?

Quote from: lordmonar on July 05, 2007, 06:07:54 AM
What about the "never" botton?

Who would think that this would be a good time to tansition to the just the BBDUs?

I would!  :)

Where would cadets get used uniforms from? I kind of like being able to pay $10 for a complete uniform, especially with 4 cadets and 2 officers in the house.

Quote from: SarDragon on July 05, 2007, 05:29:23 AM
CAP folks were wearing BDUs at my unit in Japan when I left in 1989. The phase out date for the fatigues was 1 Jan 1996, so it took longer than 3 or 4 years. I don't recall when wear actually started, because I was still wearing the fatigues when I left, and had just rejoined in 1987.

The question was about phase in time, not phase out for the previous uniform. From what I saw with the unit local to me, it was approximately three and a half years from when the Air Force issued BDU in basic, to the time when CAP was regularly wearing them at that unit.

Quote from: lordmonar on July 05, 2007, 06:07:54 AM
Who would think that this would be a good time to tansition to the just the BBDUs?

I don't.

Quote from: floridacyclist on July 05, 2007, 06:18:51 AM
Where would cadets get used uniforms from? I kind of like being able to pay $10 for a complete uniform, especially with 4 cadets and 2 officers in the house.

FREE UNIFORM PROGRAM.  Issue BBDU instead of blues.....it's what the cadets wear most of the time anyways. 

Quote from: lordmonar on July 05, 2007, 07:15:43 AM

Quote from: floridacyclist on July 05, 2007, 06:18:51 AM
Where would cadets get used uniforms from? I kind of like being able to pay $10 for a complete uniform, especially with 4 cadets and 2 officers in the house.

FREE UNIFORM PROGRAM.  Issue BBDU instead of blues.....it's what the cadets wear most of the time anyways. 

That would require a change in the reg where it defines the minimum basic uniform for cadets. Not an argument, just information.

Quote from: SarDragon on July 05, 2007, 07:20:04 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on July 05, 2007, 07:15:43 AM

Quote from: floridacyclist on July 05, 2007, 06:18:51 AM
Where would cadets get used uniforms from? I kind of like being able to pay $10 for a complete uniform, especially with 4 cadets and 2 officers in the house.

FREE UNIFORM PROGRAM.  Issue BBDU instead of blues.....it's what the cadets wear most of the time anyways. 

That would require a change in the reg where it defines the minimum basic uniform for cadets. Not an argument, just information.

Q.E.D.

Quote from: lordmonar on July 05, 2007, 07:15:43 AM
FREE UNIFORM PROGRAM.  Issue BBDU instead of blues.....it's what the cadets wear most of the time anyways. 

I have to disagree, the "minimum service dress" uniform provides a direct link to the CAP mission of "Cadet Programs" where field uniforms suggests "Emergency Services."

They really should have both, in my opinion, the "service dress" so they can learn how to maintain a uniform that has to "be tucked in," "shoes they have to shine" and "clothes they have to have ironed."  For many cadets, this minimum service dress uniform is the only (closest) thing they have to "formal" clothing as opposed to this...

(http://primotechnology.com/articles/0905/bdla/concept/big/gangs.jpg)

They should have "field dress" should they want to do the ES option.

Quote from: lordmonar on July 05, 2007, 06:07:54 AM
What about the "never" botton?

Who would think that this would be a good time to tansition to the just the BBDUs?

Never

I guess the real question is when will BDUs no longer be readily available.  Sure, we can always go to an Army Surplus store, but finding a good serviceable set isn't always easy, even today  There are companies that make the BDU, but will they continue to do so after the AF stops wearing them completely? 

I'm not completely adverse to the BBDU, but only if National changes the color of the CAP tapes, name tapes, and insignia to the "dark blue" to match the shade of the BBDU.

My preference is to keep wearing the AF uniform and if we do, I would expect a phase in date of 3 to 4 years after the AF fully transitions.

At any rate, I'm in this organization for the long term and will wear what I'm told to.

I have a feeling you will see initial authorization in 1-2yrs with mandatory wear 5 yrs out.

Quote from: lordmonar on July 05, 2007, 07:15:43 AM
FREE UNIFORM PROGRAM.  Issue BBDU instead of blues.....it's what the cadets wear most of the time anyways. 

I've never seen a cadet wearing a blue BDU.

Quote from: Major Carrales on July 05, 2007, 07:39:17 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on July 05, 2007, 07:15:43 AM
FREE UNIFORM PROGRAM.  Issue BBDU instead of blues.....it's what the cadets wear most of the time anyways. 

I have to disagree, the "minimum service dress" uniform provides a direct link to the CAP mission of "Cadet Programs" where field uniforms suggests "Emergency Services."

They really should have both, in my opinion, the "service dress" so they can learn how to maintain a uniform that has to "be tucked in," "shoes they have to shine" and "clothes they have to have ironed."  For many cadets, this minimum service dress uniform is the only (closest) thing they have to "formal" clothing as opposed to this...

(http://primotechnology.com/articles/0905/bdla/concept/big/gangs.jpg)

They should have "field dress" should they want to do the ES option.

CRAP......I don't want to "run into" the guy on the far right with not only a gun but a knife too.  He is going to shoot me then stab me.  I guess getting shot is not enough for some people that you have to stab them as well.  That would end a perfectly terrible day!

Back to discussion......I think we will see CAP get the ABU a lot sooner than most think.  We do have a CAP-USAF Commander that will most likely push for us to have them before the AF required date of 2012.  That is saying he will still be there.

Never.

I don't think BDU's should be worn either.  Camouflage utility/fatigue uniforms are for active/reserve/guard military personnel.  Sorry folks, but that ain't us.

Been there, done that...

-SeattleSarge

Quote from: SeattleSarge on July 05, 2007, 06:01:46 PM
Never.

I don't think BDU's should be worn either.  Camouflage utility/fatigue uniforms are for active/reserve/guard military personnel.  Sorry folks, but that ain't us.

Been there, done that...

-SeattleSarge

What are you suggesting we wear for ES missions?

Quote from: SeattleSarge on July 05, 2007, 06:01:46 PM
Never.

I don't think BDU's should be worn either.  Camouflage utility/fatigue uniforms are for active/reserve/guard military personnel.  Sorry folks, but that ain't us.

Been there, done that...

-SeattleSarge

At least the AF chevrons would look better on the BBDU.  Do you happen to have a pic you can post of that?

Quote from: lordmonar on July 05, 2007, 07:15:43 AM

Quote from: floridacyclist on July 05, 2007, 06:18:51 AM
Where would cadets get used uniforms from? I kind of like being able to pay $10 for a complete uniform, especially with 4 cadets and 2 officers in the house.

FREE UNIFORM PROGRAM.  Issue BBDU instead of blues.....it's what the cadets wear most of the time anyways. 

Cadets wear Blue BDU's most of the time?   Where?

Quote from: Eclipse on July 05, 2007, 06:30:24 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on July 05, 2007, 07:15:43 AM

Quote from: floridacyclist on July 05, 2007, 06:18:51 AM
Where would cadets get used uniforms from? I kind of like being able to pay $10 for a complete uniform, especially with 4 cadets and 2 officers in the house.

FREE UNIFORM PROGRAM.  Issue BBDU instead of blues.....it's what the cadets wear most of the time anyways. 

Cadets wear Blue BDU's most of the time?   Where?

He's talking about that many Cadets are more likely to wear field/work uniforms rather than service uniforms.

Quote from: SeattleSarge on July 05, 2007, 06:01:46 PM
Never.

I don't think BDU's should be worn either.  Camouflage utility/fatigue uniforms are for active/reserve/guard military personnel.  Sorry folks, but that ain't us.

Been there, done that...

-SeattleSarge

How long is it going to take people to remember why we wear the Air Force's utilities?

Besides, don't like them? Are you excercising your option not to wear them?

Quote from: Psicorp on July 05, 2007, 06:17:49 PM
At least the AF chevrons would look better on the BBDU.  Do you happen to have a pic you can post of that?

Here's a link to a photo on the Iowa Wing website: http://www.iawg.cap.gov/images/2006/Sep%20Drill/transportationnco.JPG

They do look good on the BBDU.

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 05, 2007, 07:53:58 PM

Quote from: Psicorp on July 05, 2007, 06:17:49 PM
At least the AF chevrons would look better on the BBDU.  Do you happen to have a pic you can post of that?

Here's a link to a photo on the Iowa Wing website: http://www.iawg.cap.gov/images/2006/Sep%20Drill/transportationnco.JPG

They do look good on the BBDU.

Sure, they look like the Thunderbird NCO staff.

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 05, 2007, 07:50:07 PM
Besides, don't like them? Are you excercising your option not to wear them?

While I'm not the OP:  Yes.  Even though I meet the Air Force standards.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 05, 2007, 06:30:24 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on July 05, 2007, 07:15:43 AM

Quote from: floridacyclist on July 05, 2007, 06:18:51 AM
Where would cadets get used uniforms from? I kind of like being able to pay $10 for a complete uniform, especially with 4 cadets and 2 officers in the house.

FREE UNIFORM PROGRAM.  Issue BBDU instead of blues.....it's what the cadets wear most of the time anyways. 

Cadets wear Blue BDU's most of the time?   Where?

I mean BDU's....if we switch to BBDU we switch the free uniform program to the field uniform vice the service dress.

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 05, 2007, 07:50:07 PM
How long is it going to take people to remember why we wear the Air Force's utilities?

Besides, don't like them? Are you excercising your option not to wear them?

Yes, I do choose to not to wear it... out of respect for my friends and relatives who are still serving. 

-SeattleSarge

Quote from: SeattleSarge on July 05, 2007, 11:40:28 PM

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 05, 2007, 07:50:07 PM
How long is it going to take people to remember why we wear the Air Force's utilities?

Besides, don't like them? Are you excercising your option not to wear them?

Yes, I do choose to not to wear it... out of respect for my friends and relatives who are still serving. 

-SeattleSarge

How is wearing CAP BDU's disrepectful of servicemen overseas or anywhere???

Quote from: SeattleSarge on July 05, 2007, 06:01:46 PM
Never.

I don't think BDU's should be worn either.  Camouflage utility/fatigue uniforms are for active/reserve/guard military personnel.  Sorry folks, but that ain't us.

Been there, done that...

-SeattleSarge

With due respect, Sarge, the BDU uniform is not trademarked for military personnel.  To imply that CAP members wearing them properly brings disrespect to the U.S. military is slightly offensive.  It is a utility uniform that we are authorized to wear, it serves a purpose, and is readily and economically available for our personnel.  No one is pretending to be anything that they aren't (well, most of us) and we are clearly identified as our own organization when we wear them.

You say that you choose to wear the blue version, but I don't see how the color has anything to do with the durability and usefullness of it in the field.  Jeans and a t-shirt wouldn't be a viable alternative.

Quote from: LtCol White on July 06, 2007, 12:17:24 AM

How is wearing CAP BDU's disrespectful of servicemen overseas or anywhere???

This is my opinion and mine alone.  Forged from my own military service and experience.

A "battlefield" uniform is worn by warriors.  The right to wear it is earned through training, qualification, experience, and military service.  To me, it is a badge of honor like other awards and decorations given to soldiers, sailors, and airmen.

I mean no offense to those of you that do follow CAP directives and wear BDUs.  I'm sure all of you wear that uniform correctly and proudly.

I however, will not.  Too many friends of mine are in harms way right now, wearing that type of uniform, risking all everyday, for me to wear the symbol from my years past and be able to look them in the eye when, hopefully, they come home.

You can choose to disagree with my reasoning.  That's fine.  But frankly this issue is very personal to me and your opinions will not change my decision.

-SeattleSarge

Quote from: SeattleSarge on July 06, 2007, 02:14:00 AM

Quote from: LtCol White on July 06, 2007, 12:17:24 AM

How is wearing CAP BDU's disrespectful of servicemen overseas or anywhere???

This is my opinion and mine alone.  Forged from my own military service and experience.

A "battlefield" uniform is worn by warriors.  The right to wear it is earned through training, qualification, experience, and military service.  To me, it is a badge of honor like other awards and decorations given to soldiers, sailors, and airmen.

I mean no offense to those of you that do follow CAP directives and wear BDUs.  I'm sure all of you wear that uniform correctly and proudly.

I however, will not.  Too many friends of mine are in harms way right now, wearing that type of uniform, risking all everyday, for me to wear the symbol from my years past and be able to look them in the eye when, hopefully, they come home.

You can choose to disagree with my reasoning.  That's fine.  But frankly this issue is very personal to me and your opinions will not change my decision.

-SeattleSarge

I am currently a military member and, per my creed, a warrior. Do you think I should not wear the BDU's in CAP? I have the training, qualification, experience and am still serving. Do I qualify?

Quote from: SeattleSarge on July 06, 2007, 02:14:00 AM

Quote from: LtCol White on July 06, 2007, 12:17:24 AM

How is wearing CAP BDU's disrespectful of servicemen overseas or anywhere???

This is my opinion and mine alone.  Forged from my own military service and experience.

A "battlefield" uniform is worn by warriors.  The right to wear it is earned through training, qualification, experience, and military service.  To me, it is a badge of honor like other awards and decorations given to soldiers, sailors, and airmen.

I mean no offense to those of you that do follow CAP directives and wear BDUs.  I'm sure all of you wear that uniform correctly and proudly.

I however, will not.  Too many friends of mine are in harms way right now, wearing that type of uniform, risking all everyday, for me to wear the symbol from my years past and be able to look them in the eye when, hopefully, they come home.

You can choose to disagree with my reasoning.  That's fine.  But frankly this issue is very personal to me and your opinions will not change my decision.

-SeattleSarge

I think I can speak for everyone when I say that I respect your service to your nation and its citizens.  Some of us have also served or currently serve in positions of service to the same.

The battlefield has long served as a proving ground for technology, bravery, and sacrifice since the beginning of man and we take our hats off to those who have entered it.  I know that there are people who will roll their eyes when they see a BDU uniform with a Civil Air Patrol tape over the pocket, but all we can do is try and represent our commitment to volunteer to help others no matter what color our shirt and pants happen to be.

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 06, 2007, 02:48:35 AM

I am currently a military member and, per my creed, a warrior. Do you think I should not wear the BDU's in CAP? I have the training, qualification, experience and am still serving. Do I qualify?

Sir, that decision is completely yours. 

-SeattleSarge

Quote from: SeattleSarge on July 06, 2007, 02:53:25 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 06, 2007, 02:48:35 AM

I am currently a military member and, per my creed, a warrior. Do you think I should not wear the BDU's in CAP? I have the training, qualification, experience and am still serving. Do I qualify?

Sir, that decision is completely yours. 

-SeattleSarge

I was looking for an answer. In your opinion, do I qualify? This is not an attempt to flame you, it is for the purpose of establishing the boundaries of your opinion. I may ask other questions, but I will still respect your opinion.

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 06, 2007, 03:08:15 AM
[I was looking for an answer. In your opinion, do I qualify? This is not an attempt to flame you, it is for the purpose of establishing the boundaries of your opinion. I may ask other questions, but I will still respect your opinion.

From how you described yourself, it certainly sounds like you've earned the right.  Wether you choose to wear it or not should be a personal decision.

-SeattleSarge

My stance is that it is an either or sort of a situation.

Either we all wear USAF style uniforms or we all wear Corporate Style uniforms.

My first choice would be USAF style....but since we have given the USAF the veto on that we have two choices...one....telll the USAF (very politely) to take a hike and everyone wears the USAF style uniform or....we just tell the over weight, long haired, non conformists that we don't really want their assistance.

My vote is for option 1.

Alternatively we just all switch to corporates.

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 06, 2007, 03:08:15 AM

Quote from: SeattleSarge on July 06, 2007, 02:53:25 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 06, 2007, 02:48:35 AM

I am currently a military member and, per my creed, a warrior. Do you think I should not wear the BDU's in CAP? I have the training, qualification, experience and am still serving. Do I qualify?

Sir, that decision is completely yours. 

-SeattleSarge

I was looking for an answer. In your opinion, do I qualify? This is not an attempt to flame you, it is for the purpose of establishing the boundaries of your opinion. I may ask other questions, but I will still respect your opinion.

I'd like to provide my own answer as well...

I spent a few years of my youth in that uniform and while I was never in a "battlefield", I had a few achievements and milestones that served me well into adulthood.  I don't think that the name on the tape means as much as the person who is wearing it.  I wish that I had continued on further in CAP as a cadet, but my school's JROTC program was much more enticing at the time and I switched my focus to work my way up to being a C/Lt Col in that program.

My point is that, as we all know, it's not the uniform that makes the person, it's the one who is wearing it.  My whole reason for re-joining CAP is to share those ideals with my children and with the youth who are now where I was and to encourage them to take as much pride in their future as I did.

AF members will have to help me out with this but, when I was overseas, the AF members who I worked alongside some days wore ACU's.  The Army Wears ACU's, the AF has mandated the new combat uniform to be worn by all AF members going to Iraq and Afghanistan to be the new ABU.  In theory BDU's are no longer the combat uniform that they once were.  

There is no disrespect in a CAP member wearing the BDU.  If we were to go off on SeattleSarges belief that we should not wear the uniform worn by military members, then we should not wear the AF style Blues, nor the flight suits or even the blue BDU's.  Color does not change what a uniform is.  The Blue BDU's are very similar to those worn by select groups in the military.  We have seen pictures of them here on this board.  

Like it or not, we are part of the Air Force (a very small part, which changes on a what seems like a daily basis).  We have been given the privilege of wearing a uniform that closely resembles that of a military service.  It was not a choice made lightly.  We earned it (as an organization) through the hard work and sacrifices made by our founding members, WHO DID GIVE UP THIER LIVES in service to their country, through the Civil Air Patrol.

Our fellow members continue to sacrifice for this country.  We may not be overseas, but we provide a service none the less.  

As a person who has served YEARS in IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN, I have no problem wearing CAP BDU's.  Not because of my military service, but because it is a privilege and a right that is equal to the right to wear my countires uniform in the military.  

Lets not forget to mention that it is also good to look uniform sometimes.  How often do we have a group of 20 members in BDU's and 1 member in BBDU's?  I think some people wear the BBDU's to stand out from everyone else.  


:-*

Quote from: mikeylikey on July 06, 2007, 03:26:39 AM
 If we were to go off on SeattleSarges belief that we should not wear the uniform worn by military members, then we should not wear the AF style Blues, nor the flight suits or even the blue BDU's.  

Excuse me,  but I didn't say "we" should not wear, I said "I will not wear". 

My comments were an expression of personal belief, not a call to action of any kind.

Sir, you a certainly entitled to not share my opinion.  I do respect yours.

-SeattleSarge

Quote from: mikeylikey on July 06, 2007, 03:26:39 AM
AF members will have to help me out with this but, when I was overseas, the AF members who I worked alongside some days wore ACU's.  The Army Wears ACU's, the AF has mandated the new combat uniform to be worn by all AF members going to Iraq and Afghanistan to be the new ABU.  In theory BDU's are no longer the combat uniform that they once were. 


:-*

Correct if you are attached to an Army unit most times you will be wearing ACU's regardless of branch.
(http://www.militaryclothing.com//ImgUpload/P_25891700_1564938.JPG)

Quote from: SeattleSarge on July 06, 2007, 03:16:02 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 06, 2007, 03:08:15 AM
[I was looking for an answer. In your opinion, do I qualify? This is not an attempt to flame you, it is for the purpose of establishing the boundaries of your opinion. I may ask other questions, but I will still respect your opinion.

From how you described yourself, it certainly sounds like you've earned the right.  Wether you choose to wear it or not should be a personal decision.

-SeattleSarge

I can accept that answer. What puzzles me is the fact that you seem to have earned the right as well, but you don't wear them. There is no way you could be a CAP Tech Sergeant without service in some branch of the military as an NCO. You meet your own standard, which is not by any means a low one.

In my unit, we had some problems with some cadets that didn't seem to be taking the uniform seriously. I had a conversation with the group, and told them that upon joining CAP, they became part of a legacy of people that have worked, sweat, and bled while wearing a uniform. The result could almost be described as miraculous. Before that conversation, I was making five or six corrections per meeting night. Since then, I've been making only one or two a month. The fact that there are higher standards to meet tends to help some people raise their own bar when they understand the history.

Personally, I don't have a problem with non-prior service personnel wearing the BDU as a uniform. I have issues with people that wear the hats, or the pants as a fashion statement, especially when it's the anti-conformist crowd (a reasoning I still don't get). The people I really have issues with are the ones that literally whizz (kind word, I know I can't say the other one) on the sacrifices of history's service members by wearing medals that they haven't earned, or setting themselves up to be war heroes when they have never seen combat.

Now that I think of it, you mention that one of the reasons you don't wear the BDU's is because of the friends you have in combat theaters. Have you ever asked them how they felt about you wearing a military utility in CAP? I think that if you do, you may find them more accomodating than you might realize.

Quote from: Becks on July 06, 2007, 03:39:54 AM
Correct if you are attached to an Army unit most times you will be wearing ACU's regardless of branch.

With the general release of the ABU, the Air Force has said that Airman will no longer wear ACU's. If you're an Airman and have been issued an ABU, you wear it. According to the AF uniform board, there won't be any exceptions.

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 06, 2007, 03:46:11 AM

Now that I think of it, you mention that one of the reasons you don't wear the BDU's is because of the friends you have in combat theaters. Have you ever asked them how they felt about you wearing a military utility in CAP? I think that if you do, you may find them more accomodating than you might realize.

Hawk,

You are correct, I was a Staff Sergeant in the Army, a medic specifically.  However, right now I'm a civilian.  I'm trying to be a useful aircrewman, a half decent public affairs NCO, and from time to time a mentor in military subjects to my squadron.

I, like you, have issues with people wearing uniforms incorrectly, and wearing decorations that were unearned.  I really have problems with people wearing the national colors as clothing. 

Maybe it's the war, or my friends and relatives that are over there, that make me so sensitive to this, I don't know. 

I have a extremely high regard for folks like Mikey who've been there.  With their level of sacrifice going on I just don't feel that wearing that symbol is something I can personally justify.

Also, I really appreciate this thoughtful debate from you.  It's one of the reasons I enjoy participating here.

-SeattleSarge

What about those of us without military service who have chosen careers that serve our country, ie public safety or EMS. Should I not wear a military style ie BDU uniform, which is what my agency has me in, with a flag on my shoulder and stripes on my sleeves simply because I have never seen battle? Ive mentioned in a couple other posts since coming off duty this morning that I saw 39 patients. 2 of the 3 that didnt live were rival gang members that shot each other. I was there when it happened, about a hundred feet from the gunfight. Sounds an awful lot like battle doesnt it.

Quote from: SeattleSarge on July 06, 2007, 02:14:00 AM

Quote from: LtCol White on July 06, 2007, 12:17:24 AM

How is wearing CAP BDU's disrespectful of servicemen overseas or anywhere???

This is my opinion and mine alone.  Forged from my own military service and experience.

A "battlefield" uniform is worn by warriors.  The right to wear it is earned through training, qualification, experience, and military service.  To me, it is a badge of honor like other awards and decorations given to soldiers, sailors, and airmen.

I mean no offense to those of you that do follow CAP directives and wear BDUs.  I'm sure all of you wear that uniform correctly and proudly.

I however, will not.  Too many friends of mine are in harms way right now, wearing that type of uniform, risking all everyday, for me to wear the symbol from my years past and be able to look them in the eye when, hopefully, they come home.

You can choose to disagree with my reasoning.  That's fine.  But frankly this issue is very personal to me and your opinions will not change my decision.

-SeattleSarge

I can respect your right to your opinion and your reasoning makes sense to you although I find it difficult to understand and I would not try to change your decision but I just don't understand how it can be perceived as disrespectful to wear BDUs.

Worn properly and proudly, it serves as a tribute to those serving in harms way because when the public sees CAP personnel in BDUs, it is a reminder that men and women ARE overseas in harms way and causes them to give thought to military personnel. I am a former Marine Infantry Officer who has been in combat. 

That is MY opinion on the matter

Quote from: SeattleSarge on July 06, 2007, 04:03:39 AM
Hawk,

You are correct, I was a Staff Sergeant in the Army, a medic specifically.  However, right now I'm a civilian.  I'm trying to be a useful aircrewman, a half decent public affairs NCO, and from time to time a mentor in military subjects to my squadron.

I, like you, have issues with people wearing uniforms incorrectly, and wearing decorations that were unearned.  I really have problems with people wearing the national colors as clothing. 

Maybe it's the war, or my friends and relatives that are over there, that make me so sensitive to this, I don't know. 

I have a extremely high regard for folks like Mikey who've been there.  With their level of sacrifice going on I just don't feel that wearing that symbol is something I can personally justify.

Also, I really appreciate this thoughtful debate from you.  It's one of the reasons I enjoy participating here.

-SeattleSarge

I was aware that Mikey has been over there. In case I've misled you (which was unintentional) I am not a combat veteran. I do have eighteen years between active duty and Guard. I'm slated to go next year (Iraq). I don't know if that would change your opinion of our dialogue, but I hope I haven't led you to a an inaccurate conclusion.

I understand your opinion, I don't agree, but I do fully understand it (not as hard to do as some people might think).  You have earned the right to wear a uniform. Veteran's Day is about all veterans, not just the combat ones. You're one of those people.If you've stood ready to defend this country, without reservation, that day is for you too.

It may sound wierd, but I tend to be uncomfortable when people thank me for my military service. I usually respond with "Thank you for your support of the military". It makes it easier for me. Maybe I should listen to my own words for once.

Overall, having worn that uniform, you are one of the best people to convey the seriousness of wearing it properly to our younger members. Not to wear it seems like the waste of a hard earned talent.

Do I actually make any sense? I hope so, words on a screen have a different impact than when spoken to someone.

Meant to post this last night, but the cable dropped out.

Aside from the polo shirt and grey slacks, every other uniform we wear looks like someone else's. BBDU's are the fatigue of the Coast Guard. BDU's are an antiquated combat uniform that no one accepts as the best attire for any war. Even the " Blazer Combo" was ripped off from Federal Security Guards. Lets face it, until we sport a pink tu-tu and a leather push-up bra, we'll always look like someone else.

I wear the BDU. It's economical and easy to acquire at the PX. I would rather see everyone in the BBDU. It promotes uniformity which is the only reason we all wear a uniform. So what if the Coasties get mad.

I have friends and family in the suck right now. I played in the mog. Frankly, the BDU is just another rag you throw on your back, I hated it then for the fact that it was lousy camouflage. I don't hold it close to my heart now either. It's not like everyone gets a CIB / CAB / CMB. That is what you earn, not a shirt and pair of pants.

I too would rather see everyone in the BBDU, even though a recent diet got me slim enough to wear camo. Ive maintained for a long time that there is no reason for us to wear camo. First, its distinctive (the USCG is secure enough in their image that they really arent worried at all about, in addition to the fact that their new ODU have so many distinctive features that they will not easily be mistake, aside from our ultramarine tapes. I think the Blazer combo needs to be reserved for patron members and other non-operationals. If youre in the field, you should be in the BBDU, unless of course your "field" is the air, in which case the blue nomex would be the case...again, no need for us to wear green, except that alot of pilots love it. Going to all BBDUs eliminates the problems of the weight and grooming restrictions, except that I would hope that we could still maintain some beard length and style standards and some hair standards as well (not a problem for me since I shave my head). There really is no reason for the white/greys AND the white/blues other than to say "you can wear blue trousers if you have a mustache but not if you are 15 pounds overweight." Foolishness. So all members can go to the BBDUs, blue/whites, the blue nomex and blue field coveralls if the "operation" should require it. I also dont think there is any need for the blue/blues except that (and I am going to get flamed) there are members who feel the need to look like Momma Blue. Lets face it, there are so many of us that are trying to look USAF-ish and the USAF tries to slip in little things to seperate us from them whenever they can. If we have this AUX ON/AUX OFF thing going on, then lets just have our own uniforms across the board, just as we have our own set of ribbons, commendations, etc. I really dont think anyone can make a case for wearing the blues and the camo BDUs except that we are tied to the AF so we should try to identify with them by the way we look. We do plenty of things that are not AF related or tasked that establishing a little bit of our own identity would establish unity of appearance, esprit d'corp by not having "fat and fuzzy suits." Lets establish our own identity. If the AF was that concerned with us being identified with them, we would be like the USCGAUX and all members would be allowed to wear USAF and not just the "lean and clean crowd." I personally wont wear the AF style unis even though I now can because I dont want to participate in what is essentially discriminating against certain members. I know we have had this conversation many times and it always brings up arguments, but there is a much more clear and logical argument to be made for all CAP uniforms being distinctive than there is for a hodge podge.

Why all these references to USCG Aux? How many trhreads compare USCGAux annd USCG and the CAP as USAF Aux? CAP is very different from USCG, our roots go back to the Army Air Corp, not any sea going organization. And your reference is all for Senior members, not cadets. Cadets often can get BDUs surplus or at no cost from Squadrons. But you want everyone to switch to expensive (at least for cadets) BBDU. The required uniform for cadets is the USAF issued blues under the Cadet Free uniform program. Thus it is THE standard uniform for CAP, cadets and seniors. For those that don't meet the facial hair or weight standards there should be a work uniform (BBDU) and single blue/white or whatever standard uniform. There are to many varioation of senior uniforms, but only two for cadets. And forty five percent of CAP membership are cadets. But most all posts here suggesting uniform changes or new ribbons are for senior members only.
Recently there was a Hurricane Peparedness Expo at a local Mall. USCGAux was there and I've never seen so many overweight people with so many uniform violations assuming there is a uniform standard, no two were alike.

Please, this is to be about phase-in times for the ABU's, not another BDU v BBDU thread.

Thank you.

^  Phase in will begin in 3 years, with total CAP mandatory by 2015.  Just my prediction. 

I really hope we get out of the BDU's... Imagine being confused with the Pakastani Army?  TP would go nuts!

(http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/07/08/pakistan.red.mosque/art.haroon.fam.jpg)

Side note:  THis commander was killed today fighting against the Islamic radicals holed up in the Red Mosque.

Quote from: SarDragon on July 05, 2007, 06:13:03 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on July 05, 2007, 06:07:54 AM
What about the "never" botton?

Who would think that this would be a good time to tansition to the just the BBDUs?

I would!  :)

If that happened I would be VERY Disappointed. They look completely unprofessional and are at odds with our Air Force background.

Quote from: 2d Lt FAT and FUZZY on July 08, 2007, 05:03:57 PM
I really hope we get out of the BDU's... Imagine being confused with the Pakastani Army?  TP would go nuts!

(http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/07/08/pakistan.red.mosque/art.haroon.fam.jpg)

Side note:  This commander was killed today fighting against the Islamic radicals holed up in the Red Mosque.

Hmmmm I don't care about that man........I care about our men an women who are dieing overseas.  Here is a link. http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/index.html) 
Three good friends of mine have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Why are more American Soldiers dieing than Iraqi soldiers.  You brought this up, so here is the lowdown.  That man was killed outside the Mosque because he and his countrymen let radical fundamentalists infiltrate their society and did nothing about it until now.  Now that the US is committed to perhaps a five decade long war these men decide it will be easier now for them to get rid of their problems with the USA help.

I have lost men and women in my Command overseas, and I truly felt for them and their families.  I do not have any feelings towards the man you displayed above.

DONE!

Was that outburst really necessary?  I mean really...

WTH is that all about?

Oh and you are the only one who has lost friends?  I also have family over there.. I head to Kuwait myself shortly.. (Not that I will be in as much danger than those in the sandbox)

And you should care about that man because he is representative of the many others who will be taking on Islamic radicals.  Because if they don't then the fight comes to our shores and many more of your friends will die.

But that was not what the post was about and for you to have your little outburst was out of line and totally unnecessary.

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on July 08, 2007, 05:19:27 PM
They look completely unprofessional...

How so?  They may be "un-military", but unprofessional?  I think there is a lot more that is "unprofessional" about the way many folks wear their uniform and color has little to do with it. 

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on July 08, 2007, 05:19:27 PM
..and are at odds with our Air Force background.

Not as much as you'd think.  Air Force TA wears a blue uniform.  Not quite a BDU style, but more like the old fatigues.  The maintainers for the Thunderbirds wears a blue uniform as well.  I haven't heard anyone in the Air Force calling either of those groups unprofessional.

Quote from: shorning on July 08, 2007, 08:00:17 PM

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on July 08, 2007, 05:19:27 PM
They look completely unprofessional...

How so?  They may be "un-military", but unprofessional?  I think there is a lot more that is "unprofessional" about the way many folks wear their uniform and color has little to do with it. 

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on July 08, 2007, 05:19:27 PM
..and are at odds with our Air Force background.

Not as much as you'd think.  Air Force TA wears a blue uniform.  Not quite a BDU style, but more like the old fatigues.  The maintainers for the Thunderbirds wears a blue uniform as well.  I haven't heard anyone in the Air Force calling either of those groups unprofessional.

Although I wear BDU's, I see nothing wrong with the BBDU. Worn PROPERLY, I think they look fine and professional for those who choose to wear them.

Quote from: shorning on July 08, 2007, 08:00:17 PM

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on July 08, 2007, 05:19:27 PM
They look completely unprofessional...

How so?  They may be "un-military", but unprofessional?  I think there is a lot more that is "unprofessional" about the way many folks wear their uniform and color has little to do with it. 

Agreed, on "un-military" as opposed to "unprofesional". The appearance is the problem, not the cloth.

Quote from: shorning on July 08, 2007, 08:00:17 PM

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on July 08, 2007, 05:19:27 PM
..and are at odds with our Air Force background.

Not as much as you'd think.  Air Force TA wears a blue uniform.  Not quite a BDU style, but more like the old fatigues.  The maintainers for the Thunderbirds wears a blue uniform as well.  I haven't heard anyone in the Air Force calling either of those groups unprofessional.

Air Force TA is Air Force TA, not the rest of the Air Force. It's a specialized uniform that serves a purpose in the same way medical whites do. They designate a group of people with a specific duty and set of skills for a specific purpose.

Not to mention, there has never been a time in the United States Air Force history that all airman wore blue fatigues. Many Air Force personnel are not aware of what TA even does, much less seen them. The BBDU fills a different purpose anyway, so just comparing them based on color isn't really apt.

Anyway, to bring it back on track: Three to four years seems to be the crowd favorite on phase-in. How many people are placing pre-orders on ABU's? And got any resources to share?

I predict the phase-in time for the ABU is going to be the same as the phase-in time was for the BDU: 6 years.  That's 6 years after 2011.

So it is probable that no one in CAP will be wearing ABU's until 10 years from now.  The Air Force needs to outfit everyone in the Air Force first, and when there are leftovers, those will go to CAP.   
     

Quote from: 12211985 on July 09, 2007, 11:21:56 PM
I predict the phase-in time for the ABU is going to be the same as the phase-in time was for the BDU: 6 years.  That's 6 years after 2011.

So it is probable that no one in CAP will be wearing ABU's until 10 years from now.  The Air Force needs to outfit everyone in the Air Force first, and when there are leftovers, those will go to CAP.      

6 years after 2011? No way. It's unlikely that the present BDU will be available after 2011. There might not even be a Blue BDU available after 2011.

The BDU design is outdated, and there are far better options available. Too bad some branches of the military didn't look at some of those designs a little more indepth.

Besides, it won't even take remotely close to 10 years to outfit the Air Force. Stocks will be available, and everyone in the Air Force should have at least two sets within two years. Everyone in the Air Force should be able to wear an ABU within three. Some will choose to stretch it out, but that's their choice.

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 09, 2007, 11:12:07 PM
Air Force TA is Air Force TA, not the rest of the Air Force. It's a specialized uniform that serves a purpose in the same way medical whites do. They designate a group of people with a specific duty and set of skills for a specific purpose.

Not to mention, there has never been a time in the United States Air Force history that all airman wore blue fatigues. Many Air Force personnel are not aware of what TA even does, much less seen them. The BBDU fills a different purpose anyway, so just comparing them based on color isn't really apt.

You missed my point.  I was simply pointing out that it wasn't that out of place.  I wasn't implying that they entire Air Force ever wore blue fatigues (etc.).  That would be comparing apples to oranges.  However, "different" uniforms are worn...just for different reasons.  Of course you're not going to have a separate uniform for Air Force members that don't meet weight and grooming standards.  We don't handle that the same way CAP does.  Fail to comply with Air Force standards long enough and the gives you the boot.   Fail to meet the Air Force standards (+10%) in CAP and we tell you to switch uniforms.

Heck, there are "many" in the Air Force that don't know what anyone outside of their AFSC does.  Not that big of a deal.  Somehow Big Blue manages to keep on chugging along. 

Quote from: shorning on July 09, 2007, 11:50:28 PM
You missed my point. 

No, I didn't, it didn't address the viewpoint posted. The public rarely, if ever, sees TA personnel. They probably wouldn't know they were Air Force until they read the branch tapes. And it doesn't look like a military uniform. I think that's what SAR-EMT1 meant by his original post.

Quote from: shorning on July 09, 2007, 11:50:28 PMHeck, there are "many" in the Air Force that don't know what anyone outside of their AFSC does. 

I'll agree on that one. Wasn't that way for me, I learned what 36-2105, and -2108 were fairly early in my Air Force days. It's actually interesting reading (well, if you like that sort of thing, I do), you'll sit there reading and be thinking "I didn't know there was a job like that in the Air Force!"

I am curious on one thing: Has anyone here actually ordered or pre-ordered any ABU's yet? (No, I haven't, but I did think about it.)

I wouldn't recommend it... Unless you are also in the USAF.

Quote from: MIKE on July 10, 2007, 02:43:58 AM
I wouldn't recommend it... Unless you are also in the USAF.

I wouldn't recommend it even then.  The word has come down to avoid "unofficial sources" for the ABU - and the official source won't sell to most of the world until 2008. 

Quote from: 12211985 on July 09, 2007, 11:21:56 PM
I predict the phase-in time for the ABU is going to be the same as the phase-in time was for the BDU: 6 years.  That's 6 years after 2011.

So it is probable that no one in CAP will be wearing ABU's until 10 years from now.  The Air Force needs to outfit everyone in the Air Force first, and when there are leftovers, those will go to CAP.   
     

Leftovers?  Give me a break!  I (along with many compatriots reading this) paid about sixty bucks per pair of BDU's, plus trimmings, plus boots.

And yes, USAF should outfit their own first, just as they did with BDU's. 

I can hear it now: 'Sorry Airman, no ABU's for you: we need to keep CAP looking Donna Karan/Dolce & Gabbana-spiffy. You'll get them when you come back from Iraq."

Historically, I don't recall wearing green fatigues in the late '80's hampering the mission, nor do I see ABU's adding any more functionality to CAP missions than BDU's currently do, it'll just be a matter of what's available.

Stop the "woe is me:" We get them when we get them, and until we do, we salute, execute, and wear our BDU's with pride.

Quote from: O-Rex on July 10, 2007, 03:51:25 AM

Quote from: 12211985 on July 09, 2007, 11:21:56 PM
I predict the phase-in time for the ABU is going to be the same as the phase-in time was for the BDU: 6 years.  That's 6 years after 2011.

So it is probable that no one in CAP will be wearing ABU's until 10 years from now.  The Air Force needs to outfit everyone in the Air Force first, and when there are leftovers, those will go to CAP.   
     

Leftovers?  Give me a break!  I (along with many compatriots reading this) paid about sixty bucks per pair of BDU's, plus trimmings, plus boots.

And yes, USAF should outfit their own first, just as they did with BDU's. 

I can hear it now: 'Sorry Airman, no ABU's for you: we need to keep CAP looking Donna Karan/Dolce & Gabbana-spiffy. You'll get them when you come back from Iraq."

Historically, I don't recall wearing green fatigues in the late '80's hampering the mission, nor do I see ABU's adding any more functionality to CAP missions than BDU's currently do, it'll just be a matter of what's available.

Stop the "woe is me:" We get them when we get them, and until we do, we salute, execute, and wear our BDU's with pride.

What he said!

Personally speaking, shaking my little crystal ball......I see a phase in of either the ACU (Army) or the ABU (AF) somtime during 2009-2010. The phase in will be 3 years. 

Most proably what will happen is ABU, after the 2011 mandate of the Air Force. Give us 3-5 years to Phase us in.

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 09, 2007, 11:38:38 PMNo way. It's unlikely that the present BDU will be available after 2011. There might not even be a Blue BDU available after 2011.

I wouldn't say go that far.  Most Police/SWAT teams wear the BDU and BBDU, and most likely will continue to after 2011.  Someone will have to continue to outfit them.  I think CAP won't have to worry about a shortage of BBDUs for at least 15 years.      

Anybody care to speculate what color tapes we'll get with the ABU?


In my opinion, the regular ABU tapes with maybe white embroidery like we have now would work just fine.  They're not subdued, like current AF BDU tapes are, and they provide a clean uniform appearance.  Another benefit is that we wouldn't have to order only from places that embroider tapes on obscure custom fabric colors - but from the litany of suppliers who do nametape embroidery for the military.

Thoughts?  Predictions?

QuoteAnybody care to speculate what color tapes we'll get with the ABU?

CAP motto: If it doesn't work, why fix it?

Blue tapes with white letters forever!

Quote from: RiverAux on July 11, 2007, 01:39:47 AM

QuoteAnybody care to speculate what color tapes we'll get with the ABU?

CAP motto: If it doesn't work, why fix it?

Blue tapes with white letters forever!

>:( >:( >:( You owe me a new key board. 


Anyway, I would like to see OD Tapes with White letters.

Either blue on ABU... Or keep what we got.  IMO white on ABU/gray would be hard to see/read.

(http://www.1800nametape.com/law-whtmn.gif)
This would look good and distinctive.

Quote from: RogueLeader on July 11, 2007, 02:28:42 AM

Quote from: RiverAux on July 11, 2007, 01:39:47 AM

QuoteAnybody care to speculate what color tapes we'll get with the ABU?

CAP motto: If it doesn't work, why fix it?

Blue tapes with white letters forever!

>:( >:( >:( You owe me a new key board. 


Anyway, I would like to see OD Tapes with White letters.

Two years ago, I would have said 'no way,' but given some of the fads & fashions that have come from the last 6 NB's, anything can happen  :o

White on dark blue is my prediction for BDU tapes.  I believe National will want to go with a color that closely matches the color of the BBDU.  They are already going to dark blue cloth grade insignia for the dark blue flight suit and jumpsuit.    

^^ Like above in my last post?

Quote from: RogueLeader on July 11, 2007, 03:37:09 AM
^^ Like above in my last post?

You said white on midnight.  I said white on dark blue.  Almost the same thing.  Midnight is a little darker.   

What about "ultramarine blue" writing on ABU background?  The Air Force can have their "Midnight blue", we'll have "ultramarine" or "CAP blue".

For tapes, please see new poll at http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2402.0

Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on July 11, 2007, 12:08:17 AM
Personally speaking, shaking my little crystal ball......I see a phase in of either the ACU (Army) or the ABU (AF) somtime during 2009-2010. The phase in will be 3 years. 

Most proably what will happen is ABU, after the 2011 mandate of the Air Force. Give us 3-5 years to Phase us in.

Considering that the AF doesn't want it's Airman wearing ACU's, I seriously doubt ACU's will be considered. Besides, from what we've heard, the ABU has already been discussed for CAP.

Quote from: 12211985 on July 11, 2007, 12:58:36 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 09, 2007, 11:38:38 PMNo way. It's unlikely that the present BDU will be available after 2011. There might not even be a Blue BDU available after 2011.

I wouldn't say go that far.  Most Police/SWAT teams wear the BDU and BBDU, and most likely will continue to after 2011.  Someone will have to continue to outfit them.  I think CAP won't have to worry about a shortage of BBDUs for at least 15 years.      

You're a little behind the times. Many SWAT Teams are already ditching the BDU in favor of other designs. The 5.11 TDU and HRT outfits are popular, and a few teams are wearing single color versions of the ACU. There are even versions of MCUU's that are being used. The BDU is going extinct. Time will tell how long it will take, but I'm placing bets on it being very uncommon within the next two to three years. And gone in five.

Quote from: RogueLeader on July 11, 2007, 03:15:22 AM
(http://www.1800nametape.com/law-whtmn.gif)
This would look good and distinctive.

I like it. Now all we gotta do is get someone to approach Pineda just before he goes into a uniform board with a sample in hand to show him. That's how the blue beanie got approved for national wear wasn't it?

Quote from: NAYBOR on July 11, 2007, 03:45:09 AM
What about "ultramarine blue" writing on ABU background?  The Air Force can have their "Midnight blue", we'll have "ultramarine" or "CAP blue".

I like the concept!  Would have to see a mock-up however to tell how bad it looks and if the colors clash or look garish.

I'd be very surprised if CAP switched to the ABU anytime soon. The mandatory wear date for those of us in the Air Force isn't until like 2011 or 2012. The AF's original plan was to start issuing them to folks deploying in the next AEF cycle, but I don't know if that happened or not because there was some problems with the ABU production.

I wear the USAF uniform for a living & have been deployed all over the globe it in. I have no issue with CAP folks wearing the USAF style uniform. CAP is the USAF Auxiliary & should wear it. I don't think it is an insult for CAP folks to wear BDUs.

I hope CAP eventually switches to the ABU to stay in line with the USAF. They need to figure out a way for the CAP insignia to not look silly on the ABU. I hope they do away with all the patches & just have name tapes, rank, & speciality badges (above the CAP tape) just like the AF did. CAP has too many colored patches that are not necessary.

Those of you who are ES troops can wear the BBDU if CAP ever did away with the camo uniforms. I hope they don't because I think we need the USAF uniform, but you don't need camo do do an ES mission.

Just my 2 cents...

Personally, I don't think we will be able to get BDU's, at least from AAFES, after 2008.

You look in clothing sales and there are more empty, back ordered shelves then there are one's that have BDU's on them.

Talking to the Manager of the Clothing Sales store at March ARB, he said the word he got was that the contractor who makes woodland BDU's is converting over to ABU's at the end of the year.

Either they're going to have to push up the date when CAP will be allowed to wear the ABU or we better start learning to like the Blue BDU, because new BDU's, at least from AAFES, will be very hard to come by.

There are so many companies producing or maintaining a stock of BDUs. US CAV stocks them. Propper produces mil-spec BDU woodlands, etc, etc.

I also agree though that ES should wear BBDUs or other "TDU" rather than BDU.

Cadets can't.  even if the regs allowed for BBDU's to be worn by cadets, most can't afford to to buy them.  I also doubt that most squadrons can buy them either.  I don't think that DRMO carries them, as they are not Military uniforms.

Quote from: RogueLeader on July 22, 2007, 03:38:01 AM
Cadets can't.  even if the regs allowed for BBDU's to be worn by cadets, most can't afford to to buy them.  I also doubt that most squadrons can buy them either.  I don't think that DRMO carries them, as they are not Military uniforms.

I've actually worn Blue BDUS and Blue Utilies for several months now, proberly almost a year actually. I think they present a more professional apperence.

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d159/Peregrine005/PICT3776.jpg)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the regs state that Cadets will wear the AF style uniforms.

Not to mention that the thread has gotten of topic.

Quote from: RogueLeader on July 22, 2007, 04:46:48 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the regs state that Cadets will wear the AF style uniforms.

You are indeed wrong Lieutenant.

^See above
Was meant to go to PM w/ corrections

MCSS at Kirtland has the ABU's on the shelf.  I was surprised becasue I thought that they would get the initial issue & issue to deployed troops problems sorted out before they hit the MCSS shelves.

Now having seen them in person, i'm not as impressed as I thought I would be.  Not that I think they're bad, they really look OK.  While I know that there are alot of new features, they reminded me mostly of the old BDU's - just now with a different color.  They aren't anywhere near as radical a change as the BDU to ACU was.

Quote from: JCJ on July 22, 2007, 06:24:00 AM
MCSS at Kirtland has the ABU's on the shelf.  I was surprised becasue I thought that they would get the initial issue & issue to deployed troops problems sorted out before they hit the MCSS shelves.

Now having seen them in person, i'm not as impressed as I thought I would be.  Not that I think they're bad, they really look OK.  While I know that there are alot of new features, they reminded me mostly of the old BDU's - just now with a different color.  They aren't anywhere near as radical a change as the BDU to ACU was.

They are a BDU, essentially. The only difference was a lower left hand sleeve pocket, internal map pockets on the shirt, calf pockets, and an elasticized waist. That's it. If you regularly dressed in the dark, someone could change out your BDU's with ABU's, and you probably wouldn't even know it til you got out in the light.

From what I've read, the material is a little heavier, but not much more than the NYCO winterweight BDU's.

Quote from: JThemann on July 22, 2007, 04:37:37 AM
I think they present a more professional apperence.

OK, I haven't bothered til now, but: How does a blue BDU have a more professional appearance than woodlands?

Can someone explain this to me?

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 22, 2007, 06:28:35 AM

Quote from: JCJ on July 22, 2007, 06:24:00 AM
MCSS at Kirtland has the ABU's on the shelf.  I was surprised becasue I thought that they would get the initial issue & issue to deployed troops problems sorted out before they hit the MCSS shelves.

Now having seen them in person, i'm not as impressed as I thought I would be.  Not that I think they're bad, they really look OK.  While I know that there are alot of new features, they reminded me mostly of the old BDU's - just now with a different color.  They aren't anywhere near as radical a change as the BDU to ACU was.

They are a BDU, essentially. The only difference was a lower left hand sleeve pocket, internal map pockets on the shirt, calf pockets, and an elasticized waist. That's it. If you regularly dressed in the dark, someone could change out your BDU's with ABU's, and you probably wouldn't even know it til you got out in the light.

From what I've read, the material is a little heavier, but not much more than the NYCO winterweight BDU's.

Wait..arent we supposed to get dressed in the dark..it would explain the uniform snafus.

Quote from: JThemann on July 22, 2007, 04:37:37 AM

Quote from: RogueLeader on July 22, 2007, 03:38:01 AM
Cadets can't.  even if the regs allowed for BBDU's to be worn by cadets, most can't afford to to buy them.  I also doubt that most squadrons can buy them either.  I don't think that DRMO carries them, as they are not Military uniforms.

I've actually worn Blue BDUS and Blue Utilies for several months now, proberly almost a year actually. I think they present a more professional apperence.

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d159/Peregrine005/PICT3776.jpg)

Since we are off thread here for a second anyway...our squadron STRONGLY disourages (like says "Don't") ranger roll your caps. Cant tell but it looks like you have yours rolled...dont get me wrong, you look really high speed, but still... I know we have alot of retired and even current Army among us and that for cadets ranger rolling kind of is a badge of honor from HMRS but I thought it was not allowed. I dont think it looks bad and I understand the attraction for cadets to do it...gives that elite special something...I dont know...is anyone following me here?. And I apologize if your cap isnt rolled..just from the angle, it looks that way.

The big beef I have with correcting members posts here is that there seems to be a lack of proof.

I ask you that if you choose to correct another member, you back up your informaiton.

For RL.....BBDU's are authorized for both cadets and officers by CAPM 39-1, 4-2, c & d

For SarMedTech....I cannot find the PM giving authorization for Blue Berets and Ranger Rolls from National, but I know it is out there.  I can forward you a copy of my wing's PM if you would like to see it.

I would not go as far as to say that the BBDU looks more professional than the woodland BDU, but it does look like everything fits together vs. bright colored patches on a camo uniform. I wear the woodland BDU because that is what our parent service wears.

If/when the woodland BDU becomes scarce & if CAP decides to switch to the BBDU, I'll wear it. I hope CAP does not go that route & follows the AF into the ABU. I have noting against the BBDU & as I said I think it looks pretty good, but I think we need to wear the uniform of our parent service.

It is interesting to hear the the ABU is available in some MCS stores. I wear the USAF uniform for a living & we were told that the ABU would not be available for purchase or issued (except AEF deployers) until into 2008. We were briefed all assets were going to the next AEF cycle deployers to replace the desert BDUs.

Nothing against the "Rangers" here, but I would never wear a baseball style cap without rolling the brim. A flat (straight) brim on a ball cap looks ridicules.

In 20+ years in CAP I have never heard or been told not to roll the brim of my CAP. I have never been to Hawk, but to equate rolling the brim of your cap to a "badge of honor" seems kind of silly. No slight intended to the Rangers...just my 2 cents.

Quote from: Viper QA on July 22, 2007, 03:02:25 PM
Nothing against the "Rangers" here, but I would never wear a baseball style cap without rolling the brim. A flat (straight) brim on a ball cap looks ridicules.

In 20+ years in CAP I have never heard or been told not to roll the brim of my CAP. I have never been to Hawk, but to equate rolling the brim of your cap to a "badge of honor" seems kind of silly. No slight intended to the Rangers...just my 2 cents.

Putting a curve in the brim is a different concept than a Ranger roll. The Ranger roll is when you fold the top to create a dog dish look on the top of the hat. Putting a small curve in the brim is practical, as long as it's not taken to an extreme.

Quote from: Viper QA on July 22, 2007, 02:55:22 PM
I would not go as far as to say that the BBDU looks more professional than the woodland BDU, but it does look like everything fits together vs. bright colored patches on a camo uniform. I wear the woodland BDU because that is what our parent service wears.

If/when the woodland BDU becomes scarce & if CAP decides to switch to the BBDU, I'll wear it. I hope CAP does not go that route & follows the AF into the ABU. I have noting against the BBDU & as I said I think it looks pretty good, but I think we need to wear the uniform of our parent service.

It is interesting to hear the the ABU is available in some MCS stores. I wear the USAF uniform for a living & we were told that the ABU would not be available for purchase or issued (except AEF deployers) until into 2008. We were briefed all assets were going to the next AEF cycle deployers to replace the desert BDUs.

You can also get mil-spec ABUs from Propper. In the wake of alot of equipment not making it to the Sandbox, the vacuum was filled by many private suppliers. Propper holds the status as the largest producer of mil-specs for the DOD. We're not going to run out of any BDU in any patter or have any trouble finding it as long as privat manufacturers can get ahold of a GI mil-spec and make a pattern from it. No worries whatsoever. I currently have three sets of Propper woodlands and two sets of (what they call LAPD Blue) BBDUs. You will also get your Propper orders from BDU.com in days rather than months like another supplier who shall remain nameless. And I have yet to have Propper screw up an order and send me a surplus Russian cosmonaut patch instead of a name tape.

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 22, 2007, 06:28:18 PM

Quote from: Viper QA on July 22, 2007, 03:02:25 PM
Nothing against the "Rangers" here, but I would never wear a baseball style cap without rolling the brim. A flat (straight) brim on a ball cap looks ridicules.

In 20+ years in CAP I have never heard or been told not to roll the brim of my CAP. I have never been to Hawk, but to equate rolling the brim of your cap to a "badge of honor" seems kind of silly. No slight intended to the Rangers...just my 2 cents.

Putting a curve in the brim is a different concept than a Ranger roll. The Ranger roll is when you fold the top to create a dog dish look on the top of the hat. Putting a small curve in the brim is practical, as long as it's not taken to an extreme.

Sir Im familiar with the Ranger roll as I am forced against my will to wear it while doing TacMed. I dont like the look and never have even when I didnt know why it was worn that way. All I was saying to the Cadet was that I was under the impression that they were against regs as I thought were cadets in BBDUs. NO cadet in my squad is allowed to Ranger roll or wear BBDUs per Squadron orders. If neither of these things is against regs, I say let the cadets roll how they roll. I also say in my post that it appears that the Cadet is Ranger rolled but i cannot really tell from the angle of the photo since he is wearing a ball cap and not a BDU cap. Really makes me no never mind, I just like to follow regs, thats all.

Quote from: Viper QA on July 22, 2007, 02:55:22 PM

It is interesting to hear the the ABU is available in some MCS stores. I wear the USAF uniform for a living & we were told that the ABU would not be available for purchase or issued (except AEF deployers) until into 2008. We were briefed all assets were going to the next AEF cycle deployers to replace the desert BDUs.

Surprised me too, but there it was.  They even had one set up in a mannequin-like display and they had the maternity version, too.

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 22, 2007, 06:28:18 PM

Quote from: Viper QA on July 22, 2007, 03:02:25 PM
Nothing against the "Rangers" here, but I would never wear a baseball style cap without rolling the brim. A flat (straight) brim on a ball cap looks ridicules.

In 20+ years in CAP I have never heard or been told not to roll the brim of my CAP. I have never been to Hawk, but to equate rolling the brim of your cap to a "badge of honor" seems kind of silly. No slight intended to the Rangers...just my 2 cents.

Putting a curve in the brim is a different concept than a Ranger roll. The Ranger roll is when you fold the top to create a dog dish look on the top of the hat. Putting a small curve in the brim is practical, as long as it's not taken to an extreme.

Thanks Hawk....I guess I'm not that familiar with the "Ranger Roll." I just assumed that it was rolling the brim. I agree with your point that a small curve in the brim is practical as long as it is not too excessive. A straight brim with no curve at all just looks ridicules.

Thanks for the clarification!

On SARMedTech's point about his unit not allowing cadets to wear the BBDU....don't the regs say that cadets can wear the BBDU? I was always under the assumption that a unit commander could add to the regulation, but not take away from it. How can a unit CC tell a cadet he can not wear a CAP utility uniform that CAPM 39-1 say they can? I know that is the USAF rule of thumb...a CC can add to a HHQ regulation of tech data, but not take away from.

Just wondering...

Quote from: Viper QA on July 22, 2007, 10:40:19 PM

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 22, 2007, 06:28:18 PM

Quote from: Viper QA on July 22, 2007, 03:02:25 PM
Nothing against the "Rangers" here, but I would never wear a baseball style cap without rolling the brim. A flat (straight) brim on a ball cap looks ridicules.

In 20+ years in CAP I have never heard or been told not to roll the brim of my CAP. I have never been to Hawk, but to equate rolling the brim of your cap to a "badge of honor" seems kind of silly. No slight intended to the Rangers...just my 2 cents.

Putting a curve in the brim is a different concept than a Ranger roll. The Ranger roll is when you fold the top to create a dog dish look on the top of the hat. Putting a small curve in the brim is practical, as long as it's not taken to an extreme.

Thanks Hawk....I guess I'm not that familiar with the "Ranger Roll." I just assumed that it was rolling the brim. I agree with your point that a small curve in the brim is practical as long as it is not too excessive. A straight brim with no curve at all just looks ridicules.

Thanks for the clarification!

On SARMedTech's point about his unit not allowing cadets to wear the BBDU....don't the regs say that cadets can wear the BBDU? I was always under the assumption that a unit commander could add to the regulation, but not take away from it. How can a unit CC tell a cadet he can not wear a CAP utility uniform that CAPM 39-1 say they can? I know that is the USAF rule of thumb...a CC can add to a HHQ regulation of tech data, but not take away from.

Just wondering...

Let me clarify because re-reading what i wrote i see that it is obviously both clearly misleading because of the terminology i used, but also not what I meant to say:

Our cadets are told that wear of the BBDU is "STRONGLY DISCOURAGED" and so all of them have decided that that means what it is intended to mean which is "DON'T."   I havent see our cadets wear them ever, in fact our cadets are more squared away than many of our Officers. If the cadets are allowed to wear the BBDU, per CAP regs, they have chosen not to either because of the strong wording of the CO or because cadets prefer camo. In fact, so far, I had not seen a cadet in BBDUs before the photo posted in this thread. I understood that they were required to wear AF style uniforms. We certainly have no cadets (unlike our officers ) who would be prevented from wearing AF style because of weight or facial hair and to date I havent seen any screw ups in uniform or bling wear from the cadets. We do have an older (read about 75 year old) SM who from time to time will insist that he be allowed to wear ribbons on the golf shirt, but that rebellion is quickly put down. Hes a very nice man, with a distinguished CAP and military service record with more decorations than Patton...he is a bit of a curmudgeon but he is still the one I go to when I want the straight poop.

When I first signed on, I had to wear BBDUs due to weight. This didnt bother me. Now for the sake of my health, I have lost sufficient weight to allow me to wear AF style. I do sometimes wear my BBDUs, but largely because the ES officers in my squad have decided that for certain things, they would like to wear something distinctive and we are all on the same page as far as what we will wear on the BBDUs so we have sort of an ES uniform...unofficially of course.

Quote from: CAPM 39-1, pg 413. BDU Cap: Either the USAF or Army style BDU cap or camouflage BDU baseball cap may be worn
with the BDU uniform. Senior members, cadet NCOs, and airmen do not wear any type of insignia
on the cap. Cadet officers wear the embroidered grade insignia centered 1/2 inch above the visor on
the BDU cap. Cap will not be worn crushed or rolled. Marine style BDU cap is not authorized.

Quote from: CAPM 39-1, pg 73c. Field Uniform: The CAP field uniform is an optional uniform that may be worn by both cadets and
senior members for field activities or any time the AF-style BDU uniform is normally worn.

All emphasis mine.

That makes sense....there is a big difference between "STRONGLY DISCOURAGE" & not allowed.

As a unit CC myself there are certain things that I prefer, but I would never make policy that takes away from the regulation. I do however "STRONGLY ENCOURAGE" & "STRONGLY DISCOURAGE" various things.

I also agree that most cadets prefer the camo BDU & would wear it over the BBDU.

Quote from: SarDragon on July 23, 2007, 08:49:48 AM

Quote from: CAPM 39-1, pg 413. BDU Cap: Either the USAF or Army style BDU cap or camouflage BDU baseball cap may be worn
with the BDU uniform. Senior members, cadet NCOs, and airmen do not wear any type of insignia
on the cap. Cadet officers wear the embroidered grade insignia centered 1/2 inch above the visor on
the BDU cap. Cap will not be worn crushed or rolled. Marine style BDU cap is not authorized.

Quote from: CAPM 39-1, pg 73c. Field Uniform: The CAP field uniform is an optional uniform that may be worn by both cadets and
senior members for field activities or any time the AF-style BDU uniform is normally worn.

All emphasis mine.

This is from CAP National Knowledgebase

See August 2006 National Board Minutes
AGENDA ITEM 19 Action
SUBJECT: New Business

[bold]4. ITEM: Wear of Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain Uniforms & Devices
COL FAGAN/MO MOVED AND COL LEVITCH/FL SECONDED that the National Board vote to allow wear of the Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain head gear by cadets and senior members on both the BDUs and dress uniform.
COL NELSON/CA MOVED TO AMEND AND COL OPLAND/DE SECONDED the amendment to allow wear of both activity head gear only on BDUs.
MOTION TO AMEND CARRIED
COL DAVIES/NATCAP MOVED TO AMEND AND COL FAGAN/MO SECONDED the amendment to allow wear of head gear at the discretion of wing commanders.
MOTION DID NOT PASS
MAJ GEN PINEDA RESTATED THE AMENDED MOTION: The members can wear the head gear that they get at Hawk Mountain and Blue Beret with their blue BDUs and green BDUs only.
COL LEVITCH/FL MOVED TO AMEND AND COL APPLEBAUM/PA SECONDED the amendment to allow the wear of any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head from Hawk Mountain and Blue Beret with BDUs only.[/bold]
MOTION TO AMEND CARRIED
COL OPLAND/DE MOVED TO AMEND to allow wear of any distinctive head gear awarded at any national special cadet activities.
MOTION TO AMEND DIED FOR LACK OF A SECOND
ANOTHER RESTATEMENT OF THE AMENDED MOTION: All members that attend the Blue Beret and national Hawk Mountain training can wear any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head gear with their BDUs, blue or green.
AMENDED MOTION CARRIED
FOLLOW-ON ACTION: National Headquarters implementation of policy, notification to the field and change to appropriate CAP regulations.

Please note the following thread: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2468.0
Please discontinue the BBDU topic and any other topic than the ABU from here.  Thank you.

Quote from: RogueLeader on July 24, 2007, 01:53:12 AM
Please note the following thread: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2468.0
Please discontinue the BBDU topic and any other topic than the ABU from here.  Thank you.

sorry, didn't realize you had Moderator Status......

It's not that, but it was started by me, and it was not accomplishing what I wanted it to.  I asked, numerous times and very politely, to keep it on topic.  This was not working, so I created a BBDU thread for them, and ask that they leave my ABU thread alone.
I apologize to those who were offended.

 

(http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/GEAR_US_Army_Combat_Uniform_w_Descriptions_lg.gif)

^ ??? Mmkay... that's an Army Combat Uniform (ACU)... Not an Airman Battle Uniform (ABU).

I'm betting on 5-7 years.  It'll take a while for CAP to phase out the BDUs and get in the ABU's.  Note that ABU's wont even be required by USAF until 2011, add on CAP snail time and your looking 5-7.  What Im curious to know is if CAP will keep BDUs as a CAP distinctive uniform

Bad image of the ABU...

[attachment deleted by admin]

Quote from: MIKE on September 04, 2007, 08:26:51 PM
^ ??? Mmkay... that's an Army Combat Uniform (ACU)... Not an Airman Battle Uniform (ABU).

Yeah made you look
:o

Quote from: lordmonar on July 05, 2007, 06:07:54 AM
Who would think that this would be a good time to tansition to the just the BBDUs?

Another vote here for NEVER!

Not to start any rumors, but did I hear correctly that BDU's are no longer being made available through DRMO?  If so, given this, it seems that our future supply line may be in question.

^correct.

I dont like the idea of the CAP getting combat style uniforms.  What is the purpose?  To be honest, I dont even like the current BDU style uniform, the way it is.  I think that it looks tacky with the blue name tapes.
I think that the new camo patterns will look even worse.

What ever happened to the old plain green fatiques?  I really liked those. :-(


I would think that if the CAP needed a new work uniform, a simular uniform to that used by the Coast Guard would look the best with the current insignia.

Quote from: PaulR on September 11, 2007, 03:57:02 PM
I would think that if the CAP needed a new work uniform, a simular uniform to that used by the Coast Guard would look the best with the current insignia.

They're called BBDU's and you're authorized to wear them if you want.  Or you could just join the Coast Guard Aux. instead.

Many of us, myself included, don't care for that look.  Wearing a utility uniform that is similiar to the service we support is desired as it reinforces our unity and that relationship.

Quote from: PaulR on September 11, 2007, 03:57:02 PM
I dont like the idea of the CAP getting combat style uniforms.  What is the purpose?  To be honest, I dont even like the current BDU style uniform, the way it is.  I think that it looks tacky with the blue name tapes.
I think that the new camo patterns will look even worse.

What ever happened to the old plain green fatiques?  I really liked those. :-(


I would think that if the CAP needed a new work uniform, a simular uniform to that used by the Coast Guard would look the best with the current insignia.

Ummm...the old green fatigues were also a combat uniform. If you have a problem with our uniforms, why did you join?

LOL  Cease fire guys.  This is a forum for the exchange of ideas?  Such passion... one has got to love that!

My point was not so much the wear of modern Combat attire per se, but more of an observation of how the blue of the name tape contrasts ever so greatly against the greenish brown camo schemes. 

Service goes more than skin deep.  It is not about the clothes that we wear, it is the mission that matters.  I would participate in the CAP in civies if that was deemed to be the case.   I have been wearing a uniform for 26 years, so in the grand scheme of things, it does not really matter.  I was just giving a suggestion.

Mr. A.Member, you are right.  I had forgotten that the CG Auxillary wears that very uniform.  Maybe the CAP could change the color of the ID Tapes to one that melds a bit better with the current(or future) uniforms?

Quote from: LtCol White on September 11, 2007, 04:19:25 PM

Quote from: PaulR on September 11, 2007, 03:57:02 PM
I dont like the idea of the CAP getting combat style uniforms.  What is the purpose?  To be honest, I dont even like the current BDU style uniform, the way it is.  I think that it looks tacky with the blue name tapes.
I think that the new camo patterns will look even worse.

What ever happened to the old plain green fatiques?  I really liked those. :-(


I would think that if the CAP needed a new work uniform, a simular uniform to that used by the Coast Guard would look the best with the current insignia.

Ummm...the old green fatigues were also a combat uniform. If you have a problem with our uniforms, why did you join?

Maybe because "do I like the uniforms?" isn't the first question prospective members ask?

Otherwise, we'd all be either US Marines or Waffin SS.

As a general rule, CAP's phase in times are double that of the Air Force. The Air Force expects to phase in ABU's over 5 years.  That would mean a complete phase-in of ABU's over 10 years in CAP. 

I don't think this will change my plans to buy another set of BDU's in the near future.

Quote from: ddelaney103 on September 11, 2007, 06:36:01 PM
Maybe because "do I like the uniforms?" isn't the first question prospective members ask?

Otherwise, we'd all be either US Marines or Waffin SS.

Yeah... the Marine Corps Dress Blues was always a winner with the girls.  Those were the days...   >:D

I do like the Luftwaffe uniforms over the Waffen SS though.  Something about those collar tabs.

Quote from: LtCol White on July 05, 2007, 04:26:04 PM
I have a feeling you will see initial authorization in 1-2yrs with mandatory wear 5 yrs out.

The Air Force is just starting to issue the new ABU's, with a mandatory wear date of 2011. when the Air Force started issuing the Camo and Desert BDUs there was a restriction on sales to "non Active duty personnel" until the active duty supply was allocated and AAFES had an adequate supply for us non-essential types. I would expect the authorization for CAP's use of the new uniform to be  2010 at the earliest. (Personally, I have 4 sets of the new Army BDU's and can't understand why there is different sets of digitalized  uniforms for each service) 

ACUs came out when?  Like 3 or 4 years ago?  I'm still seeing Army folks wearing BDUs on base.

I know I'm on an ANG base, but the only folks we've got wearing ABUs are the ones flying over to the sand box and they are only getting one or two pair plus 2 pair of DCUs.

On many bases, the ABU's are now available for general sale at Clothing Sales.

Well this will be the last year you will see the Army wearing BDU's.  Everyone in the Army is suppose to have them by next month, IIRC.  Correct me if I'm wrong about that.

In a situation that sends the Irony Meter into "Off-scale High," ABU's can only be found in one MCSS in the AFDW area: the Pentagon.

I'm going downrange in the first half of '08 - I expect to get a couple of sets then.  I don't know if I'll get the mold green foliage green boots at that time. 

Don't care for the foliage green boots either.  Tan T-shirt, tan belt... green boots... ick. 

Quote from: md132 on September 12, 2007, 02:00:28 AM
Well this will be the last year you will see the Army wearing BDU's.  Everyone in the Army is suppose to have them by next month, IIRC.  Correct me if I'm wrong about that.

March '08 is the time when all personnel regardless of (Army) component are supposed to have four sets. Haven't looked lately, but last I knew there was no set phaseout date for BDU's. Guys at Eustiss were wearing them for FTXs. Didn't want to ruin their ACUs.

Just saw a guy in the Waffle House a few minutes ago wearing the ABUs. They don't look all that different from ACUs. What got my attention was stripes on the sleeve instead of SSI. He had on the tan boots, so there wasn't much difference. The sewn on badge didn't look all that good either. Pin on badge, or embroidered on the same tigerstripe as the nametag would have looked better.

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 12, 2007, 03:38:02 AMHe had on the tan boots, so there wasn't much difference. The sewn on badge didn't look all that good either. Pin on badge, or embroidered on the same tigerstripe as the nametag would have looked better.

Not that I've interviewed or met a majority of the Air Force, but if the AF says they got recommendations from the field and advice from the airmen who tested the uniform, why in the heck did they go with the mold green boots?  I think they look ridiculous.

I personally don't care for all the velcro on the ACUs and do actually prefer the AF's way of sewing on rank and badges, but I do agree with you Hawk, the badges should match the nametags, or vice versa.  Kind of like how we now have OD nametapes on woodland camo, they should have gone with plain sage green nametags and badges.

I have never understood why we all went to Velcro for pocket and badges.  It breaks down after a while to where it is impossible to securely close the pockets.  It also attracts a lot of lint and etc, that gets all caught up in it. 

I think that they should bring back the buttons.  They are far more utilitarian and practical.

Although the green boots sound strange, they actually look good with the ABU's. I wasn't wild about it or sure how that would look either until I actually saw it in person being worn.

Quote from: Stonewall on September 12, 2007, 10:42:01 AM
Not that I've interviewed or met a majority of the Air Force, but if the AF says they got recommendations from the field and advice from the airmen who tested the uniform, why in the heck did they go with the mold green boots?  I think they look ridiculous.

The Air Force says they get input all the time, and they claimed that when McPeak brought out the airline uniform. As of yet, I've never met anyone that was actually asked for their opinion. Anyway, I saw an SP on base last week wearing the green boots with his BDU's. They didn't look all that good with BDU's, but I imagine that they'll look OK with the ABU.

That being said, I still don't understand the green boot for logistic reasons. There are loads of tan boots out there, airman have them already, and you can get them easily. It seems to be a case of creating something different just to be different.

Quote from: Stonewall on September 12, 2007, 10:42:01 AMI personally don't care for all the velcro on the ACUs and do actually prefer the AF's way of sewing on rank and badges, but I do agree with you Hawk, the badges should match the nametags, or vice versa.  Kind of like how we now have OD nametapes on woodland camo, they should have gone with plain sage green nametags and badges.

The more the Velcro on my ACU's wears out, the less I like it. The Velcro on my A²CU's seems to be made of sterner stuff, it doesn't seem to wear as badly as the ACU stuff does.

As for matching colors; grey, green, or tiger stripe; keep it simple: make it all match. The reasoning for grey badges and tiger stripe tapes escapes me as well. It's not like your functional badge is all that important at 20 paces, and it would look better in tiger anyway. Just the Air Force being stubbornly different again. I do love the Air Force, and if all goes well, I'll be going back in a few years. But they definitely need to work on some of their "we've got to be different" issues.

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 12, 2007, 01:46:27 PM

Quote from: Stonewall on September 12, 2007, 10:42:01 AM
Not that I've interviewed or met a majority of the Air Force, but if the AF says they got recommendations from the field and advice from the airmen who tested the uniform, why in the heck did they go with the mold green boots?  I think they look ridiculous.

The Air Force says they get input all the time, and they claimed that when McPeak brought out the airline uniform. As of yet, I've never met anyone that was actually asked for their opinion. Anyway, I saw an SP on base last week wearing the green boots with his BDU's. They didn't look all that good with BDU's, but I imagine that they'll look OK with the ABU.

That being said, I still don't understand the green boot for logistic reasons. There are loads of tan boots out there, airman have them already, and you can get them easily. It seems to be a case of creating something different just to be different.

Quote from: Stonewall on September 12, 2007, 10:42:01 AMI personally don't care for all the velcro on the ACUs and do actually prefer the AF's way of sewing on rank and badges, but I do agree with you Hawk, the badges should match the nametags, or vice versa.  Kind of like how we now have OD nametapes on woodland camo, they should have gone with plain sage green nametags and badges.

The more the Velcro on my ACU's wears out, the less I like it. The Velcro on my A²CU's seems to be made of sterner stuff, it doesn't seem to wear as badly as the ACU stuff does.

As for matching colors; grey, green, or tiger stripe; keep it simple: make it all match. The reasoning for grey badges and tiger stripe tapes escapes me as well. It's not like your functional badge is all that important at 20 paces, and it would look better in tiger anyway. Just the Air Force being stubbornly different again. I do love the Air Force, and if all goes well, I'll be going back in a few years. But they definitely need to work on some of their "we've got to be different" issues.

I agree they should match. As with everything when a new COS comes in, there will prob be changes to tweak it. I'm willing to bet you'll see a return of patches. My guess is the other would be the nametapes going to urban gray to match the insignia. That is the cheaper route to change those rather than all the rank and insignia which are already urban gray. This way, no matter who you are, you only have to change 2 things - name and branch tapes.

It's been 60 years almost to the day that the Department of Defense was established and we're still sending soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines into a combat arena with a different uniform for each. Don't the armed forces see that there is a lot of wasted effort in developing different uniforms for people doing relatively the same thing. I would think that  members of the Joint Chiefs could get together on ONE standard field uniform. It's bad enough we're in a war, but to color code our soldiers for the enemies benefit is criminal.   

Historically every nation has had different combat uniforms for their armed forces. This is not unique to the US. In recent times many countries have gone to one camo uniform with branch insignia. We just don't seem inclined to do so eventhough we did have it with the BDU.

Quote from: PaulR on September 11, 2007, 03:57:02 PM

What ever happened to the old plain green fatiques?  I really liked those. :-(

Come on, how can you beat a badass look like the old pickle suit?

The real studs wore the Vietnam era jungle fatigues.  Talk about being a chick magnet!

Quote from: LeoBurke on September 12, 2007, 05:23:39 PM
Come on, how can you beat a badass look like the old pickle suit?

The real studs wore the Vietnam era jungle fatigues.  Talk about being a chick magnet!

Gee, Leo.. I'm recently single and you're already trying to set me up with some hot Internet babes...

Outstanding.  Thanks for being a highspeed wingman!

Quote from: NIN on September 12, 2007, 05:41:55 PM

Quote from: LeoBurke on September 12, 2007, 05:23:39 PM
Come on, how can you beat a badass look like the old pickle suit?

The real studs wore the Vietnam era jungle fatigues.  Talk about being a chick magnet!

Gee, Leo.. I'm recently single and you're already trying to set me up with some hot Internet babes...

Outstanding.  Thanks for being a highspeed wingman!

You know me "Mr Share-The-Love".   Luckily I was beyond that 'Macho' look. 

An observation on the material itself. I read that the ABUs are all made from the same material to make one uniform for all seasons. Does anyone here remember back in the dark ages when the BDU first came out that same reasoning was used for the initial twill material that uniform was first issued in? I can remember shortly after Grenada the old ripstop jungle fatigues were pulled out of mothballs and authorised for stateside wear as a stop gap measure pending the development and issue of lighterweight BDUs. I'm just wondering if the Services are going down that same path again. I have a friend in the NG that commented the other day about how hot his ACUs were.

I find ACU's rather cool.  I think with the modern fabrics, you can get a material that allows heat to escape while keeping cooler air close to the body.  If you AF types would not roll your sleeves, you would find that you actually stay cooler than if you did roll your sleeves!

What are the odds that the AF will actually let us wear ABUs?

^ Most likely very slim.  I have a funny feeling we are going to be stuck in BBDU's.  Nothing wrong with BBDU's, except me personally, I don't like the color or fabric of they are made from.

Quote from: mikeylikey on September 19, 2007, 08:26:13 PM
^ Most likely very slim.  I have a funny feeling we are going to be stuck in BBDU's.  Nothing wrong with BBDU's, except me personally, I don't like the color or fabric of they are made from.

Speculation and conjecture.

CAP has always followed the USAF in uniform wear and there is no reason to suspect we wont continue to do so..... is there ?  Sure the "corporate" uniforms will be there for those not in compliance with weight and balance requirements. 

Besides, Woodland BDUs will be around for a VERY long time - many other countries still use that as their pattern.

Its not like any of us here are going to have any say so or input anyway.

Quote from: mikeylikey on September 19, 2007, 08:04:44 PM
I find ACU's rather cool.  I think with the modern fabrics, you can get a material that allows heat to escape while keeping cooler air close to the body.  If you AF types would not roll your sleeves, you would find that you actually stay cooler than if you did roll your sleeves!

    What type of climate are you in? Around here it is very hot and humid. I just remember how awfully hot the first BDUs were.
    I agree with you about having sleeves down. It cuts down on skin surface exposed to the sun. I also keep my sleeves buttoned very loose to allow for better air circulation.

^ Just a tad north of you.  I guess everyone will vary on the ACU "coolness-hotness" factor.  They move more freely and are much more looser than BDU's.  I always felt "confined in BDU's.  When moving from the Deserts to the ACU's I loved it.  I thought they were the best thing to happen to the Army in 20 years.  However, I was overseas at the time playing in the sand, so getting a new uniform was like Christmas to everyone!   :D

      Not having worn them myself, from just feeling the material they seemed a lot heavier than I'd want to wear. I guess it's in the eye (or back) of the beholder.

     On another note: I was driving by our local NG armory and the unit was in formation outside. Against the backdrop of pines and assorted undergrowth bordering the parking lot, the ACUs really stood out. There were a few guardsmen in woodland BDUs that were only noticible because of their exposed faces and hands. That really struck me as odd. What are your impressions of the actual effectiveness of the new pattern?
     
      Thank you for your service to our Country. I sleep better at night knowing men and women like yourself are standing watch.

^  Thanks!  WE all serve differently, be it CAP, military, Law Enforcement, EMT etc, but all to make our cumminities better. 

As far as the effectiveness, if we ever find ourselves in a woodland or foliage based climate area, I think the movement in the ACU's, ABU's and MARPAT's will all be very noticeable.  If we stay in urban and sandy areas, not so much.  I think they should keep enough BDU's on hand to issue if we ever go to southwest Asia, or south America.

OK now I am totally confused by the USAF.

Found this on www.pacaf.af.mil it is a few months old but still note worthy. I think we just found our (CAP) new uniform.

www.pacaf.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123041687

Nah, there was too much input from the people wearing it for it to ever be approved as a CAP uniform. 

Seemingly more input was accepted by the AF on the Civilian Guards Uniform than was accepted on the ABU.  What that says about how the AF looks at its people is another topic for different thread.

Quote from: Fireball on September 19, 2007, 08:39:36 PM
     What type of climate are you in? Around here it is very hot and humid. I just remember how awfully hot the first BDUs were.
     I agree with you about having sleeves down. It cuts down on skin surface exposed to the sun. I also keep my sleeves buttoned very loose to allow for better air circulation.

My first "long term" wear of ACUs was last summer at Fort Bragg.  It was in the 80s all week, with 80+% humidity (one morning, walking to PT, it was 72 degrees at 0500 with a dew point of 71 degrees... the C-17s were appearing out of the murk on the high overhead for Pope and I was thinking "Why does the Army keep putting bases where its so ungodly hot and crappy?"

Was the uniform warm? Yeah.  Was it uncomfortable? Nah.

Best thing was going into my office and sticking my sleeve up to the AC unit. When the moisture wicking t-shirt "lights up" with cold air, you're gonna know it.. Whoooooooo!

Quote from: LeoBurke on September 12, 2007, 06:26:56 PM

Quote from: NIN on September 12, 2007, 05:41:55 PM

Quote from: LeoBurke on September 12, 2007, 05:23:39 PM
Come on, how can you beat a badass look like the old pickle suit?

The real studs wore the Vietnam era jungle fatigues.  Talk about being a chick magnet!

Gee, Leo.. I'm recently single and you're already trying to set me up with some hot Internet babes...

Outstanding.  Thanks for being a highspeed wingman!

You know me "Mr Share-The-Love".   Luckily I was beyond that 'Macho' look. 

Not to stray off topic too far, but is that the Douggie Buggy in  the background of that photo?

Can I make a motion for the Marine Corps Combat Utility Uniform, or the MARPAT?

I just love the slanted pockets.

I am not sold at all with the ABU, and I would probably wait until the very last day for it...

Quote from: dougsnow on September 22, 2007, 11:09:56 PM
I am not sold at all with the ABU, and I would probably wait until the very last day for it...

And nothing is forcing you to wear it either. You can always wear the Blue BDU instead.

Quote from: PHall on September 23, 2007, 03:03:30 AM

Quote from: dougsnow on September 22, 2007, 11:09:56 PM
I am not sold at all with the ABU, and I would probably wait until the very last day for it...

And nothing is forcing you to wear it either. You can always wear the Blue BDU instead.

No one really wears that, do they?

Quote from: JThemann on September 24, 2007, 12:23:03 AM

Quote from: PHall on September 23, 2007, 03:03:30 AM

Quote from: dougsnow on September 22, 2007, 11:09:56 PM
I am not sold at all with the ABU, and I would probably wait until the very last day for it...

And nothing is forcing you to wear it either. You can always wear the Blue BDU instead.

No one really wears that, do they?

I've only seen a few, but just because of their facial hair.  What I've seen a lot more of is those who are busting out of their BDUs who should be wearing the BBDUs...

It was a joke.

I haven't worn woodland BDUs in about a year.

Quote from: JThemann on September 24, 2007, 04:13:03 AM
It was a joke.

The sad thing is that mine wasn't...   ;)

No arguements there.

We mandate  designate the wear of the BDU to the exclusion of the BBDU in our squadron for field uniforms.

Quote from: DHollywood on September 24, 2007, 06:17:26 AM
We mandate  designate the wear of the BDU to the exclusion of the BBDU in our squadron for field uniforms.

We'd love to do that, but not all of ours meet the weight/grooming standards.

Quote from: DHollywood on September 24, 2007, 06:17:26 AM
We mandate  designate the wear of the BDU to the exclusion of the BBDU in our squadron for field uniforms.

What if a cadet is fifteen pounds overweight and over eighteen?

What if a SM refuses to shave?

What if my BDUs are in the wash, and all I have is my Blue BDUs?

Quote from: JThemann on September 24, 2007, 04:37:34 PM

Quote from: DHollywood on September 24, 2007, 06:17:26 AM
We mandate  designate the wear of the BDU to the exclusion of the BBDU in our squadron for field uniforms.

What if a cadet is fifteen pounds overweight and over eighteen?

What if a SM refuses to shave?

What if my BDUs are in the wash, and all I have is my Blue BDUs?

Guess it's a good thing you're not in that squadron, isn't it?

Quote from: DHollywood on September 24, 2007, 06:17:26 AM
We mandate  designate the wear of the BDU to the exclusion of the BBDU in our squadron for field uniforms.

Show me a unit that does that and I'll show you a unit with members who look like they really don't belong in BDUs.

Granted, I say that taking into account the limitations of the current regulations.
I'd much rather see members in one uniform.  Heck, if you had a cadet flight in woodland and a senior flight in blue, even that would be great compared to how we operate now.

Quote from: tedda on September 24, 2007, 05:22:39 PM

Quote from: DHollywood on September 24, 2007, 06:17:26 AM
We mandate  designate the wear of the BDU to the exclusion of the BBDU in our squadron for field uniforms.

Show me a unit that does that and I'll show you a unit with members who look like they really don't belong in BDUs.

Granted, I say that taking into account the limitations of the current regulations.
I'd much rather see members in one uniform.  Heck, if you had a cadet flight in woodland and a senior flight in blue, even that would be great compared to how we operate now.

In practice, it works really well.  My old sqdn made the BBDU/blue jumpsuit/blue nomex the default uniform for SM's.  The CP types have the option to wear AF style uniforms during Cadet activities, but mostly they do that when they're out on Cadet trips.

One color, one fight, one CAP!

I should have clarified that rule is for cadets.

Most of our officers wear the blue polo/grey slacks or the white and grey. 

I only enforce uniformity for my cadets since I'm the DCC.

It works for us just fine.

Quote from: DHollywood on September 24, 2007, 07:29:35 PM
I should have clarified that rule is for cadets.

That makes more sense.

Quote from: jaybird512 on September 24, 2007, 07:31:04 PM

Quote from: DHollywood on September 24, 2007, 07:29:35 PM
I should have clarified that rule is for cadets.

That makes more sense.

Well...

Most Cadets wear the BDUs anyhow.

I'm willing to bet theres more SM's who shouldn't be in BDUs compared to the number of Cadets who shouldn't be in BDUs.

Quote from: JThemann on September 24, 2007, 11:30:33 PM
I'm willing to bet theres more SM's who shouldn't be in BDUs compared to the number of Cadets who shouldn't be in BDUs.

Define "shouldn't be"...

Quote from: JThemann on September 24, 2007, 04:37:34 PM

Quote from: DHollywood on September 24, 2007, 06:17:26 AM
We mandate  designate the wear of the BDU to the exclusion of the BBDU in our squadron for field uniforms.

What if a cadet is fifteen pounds overweight and over eighteen?

What if a SM refuses to shave?

What if my BDUs are in the wash, and all I have is my Blue BDUs?

According to the regs they wear a CAP alternate uniform

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 24, 2007, 11:53:10 PM

Quote from: JThemann on September 24, 2007, 11:30:33 PM
I'm willing to bet theres more SM's who shouldn't be in BDUs compared to the number of Cadets who shouldn't be in BDUs.

Define "shouldn't be"...

Overweight
Excessive earings on females/earings on males.
Beards.
etc etc etc.

Quote from: JThemann on September 25, 2007, 10:52:54 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 24, 2007, 11:53:10 PM

Quote from: JThemann on September 24, 2007, 11:30:33 PM
I'm willing to bet theres more SM's who shouldn't be in BDUs compared to the number of Cadets who shouldn't be in BDUs.

Define "shouldn't be"...

Overweight
Excessive earings on females/earings on males.
Beards.
etc etc etc.

Overweight isn't really an issue for the cadets under 18 crowd.

Excessive earings on either gender isn't a reason to stuff them in BBDU's, it's a reason to start explaining professional conduct. That's not appropriate in any uniform.

Beards? Haven't run into any cadets with a beard. Even in Alaska. But it would be a valid reason to put them in alternates if they chose not to shave.

For the most part, there really aren't many reasons for cadets under 18 not to be in AF uniforms.

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 25, 2007, 01:13:42 PM

Quote from: JThemann on September 25, 2007, 10:52:54 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 24, 2007, 11:53:10 PM

Quote from: JThemann on September 24, 2007, 11:30:33 PM
I'm willing to bet theres more SM's who shouldn't be in BDUs compared to the number of Cadets who shouldn't be in BDUs.

Define "shouldn't be"...

Overweight
Excessive earings on females/earings on males.
Beards.
etc etc etc.

Overweight isn't really an issue for the cadets under 18 crowd.

Excessive earings on either gender isn't a reason to stuff them in BBDU's, it's a reason to start explaining professional conduct. That's not appropriate in any uniform.

Beards? Haven't run into any cadets with a beard. Even in Alaska. But it would be a valid reason to put them in alternates if they chose not to shave.

For the most part, there really aren't many reasons for cadets under 18 not to be in AF uniforms.

Agree 100% !!

I think this may be a valid haha for this conversation...

(http://www.afblues.com/uploads/images/Ask%20Lt%20Dahl/017.jpg)

http://www.afblues.com/uploads/images/Ask%20Lt%20Dahl/017.jpg

Important USAF policy briefing on wear of ABU's.