CAP phase-in time for ABU's

[Hawk200]

Nothing against the "Rangers" here, but I would never wear a baseball style cap without rolling the brim. A flat (straight) brim on a ball cap looks ridicules.

In 20+ years in CAP I have never heard or been told not to roll the brim of my CAP. I have never been to Hawk, but to equate rolling the brim of your cap to a "badge of honor" seems kind of silly. No slight intended to the Rangers...just my 2 cents.

Putting a curve in the brim is a different concept than a Ranger roll. The Ranger roll is when you fold the top to create a dog dish look on the top of the hat. Putting a small curve in the brim is practical, as long as it's not taken to an extreme.

[SARMedTech]

I would not go as far as to say that the BBDU looks more professional than the woodland BDU, but it does look like everything fits together vs. bright colored patches on a camo uniform. I wear the woodland BDU because that is what our parent service wears.

If/when the woodland BDU becomes scarce & if CAP decides to switch to the BBDU, I'll wear it. I hope CAP does not go that route & follows the AF into the ABU. I have noting against the BBDU & as I said I think it looks pretty good, but I think we need to wear the uniform of our parent service.

It is interesting to hear the the ABU is available in some MCS stores. I wear the USAF uniform for a living & we were told that the ABU would not be available for purchase or issued (except AEF deployers) until into 2008. We were briefed all assets were going to the next AEF cycle deployers to replace the desert BDUs.

You can also get mil-spec ABUs from Propper. In the wake of alot of equipment not making it to the Sandbox, the vacuum was filled by many private suppliers. Propper holds the status as the largest producer of mil-specs for the DOD. We're not going to run out of any BDU in any patter or have any trouble finding it as long as privat manufacturers can get ahold of a GI mil-spec and make a pattern from it. No worries whatsoever. I currently have three sets of Propper woodlands and two sets of (what they call LAPD Blue) BBDUs. You will also get your Propper orders from BDU.com in days rather than months like another supplier who shall remain nameless. And I have yet to have Propper screw up an order and send me a surplus Russian cosmonaut patch instead of a name tape.

[SARMedTech]

Nothing against the "Rangers" here, but I would never wear a baseball style cap without rolling the brim. A flat (straight) brim on a ball cap looks ridicules.

In 20+ years in CAP I have never heard or been told not to roll the brim of my CAP. I have never been to Hawk, but to equate rolling the brim of your cap to a "badge of honor" seems kind of silly. No slight intended to the Rangers...just my 2 cents.

Putting a curve in the brim is a different concept than a Ranger roll. The Ranger roll is when you fold the top to create a dog dish look on the top of the hat. Putting a small curve in the brim is practical, as long as it's not taken to an extreme.

Sir Im familiar with the Ranger roll as I am forced against my will to wear it while doing TacMed. I dont like the look and never have even when I didnt know why it was worn that way. All I was saying to the Cadet was that I was under the impression that they were against regs as I thought were cadets in BBDUs. NO cadet in my squad is allowed to Ranger roll or wear BBDUs per Squadron orders. If neither of these things is against regs, I say let the cadets roll how they roll. I also say in my post that it appears that the Cadet is Ranger rolled but i cannot really tell from the angle of the photo since he is wearing a ball cap and not a BDU cap. Really makes me no never mind, I just like to follow regs, thats all.

[JCJ]

It is interesting to hear the the ABU is available in some MCS stores. I wear the USAF uniform for a living & we were told that the ABU would not be available for purchase or issued (except AEF deployers) until into 2008. We were briefed all assets were going to the next AEF cycle deployers to replace the desert BDUs.

Surprised me too, but there it was.  They even had one set up in a mannequin-like display and they had the maternity version, too.

[Viper QA]

Nothing against the "Rangers" here, but I would never wear a baseball style cap without rolling the brim. A flat (straight) brim on a ball cap looks ridicules.

In 20+ years in CAP I have never heard or been told not to roll the brim of my CAP. I have never been to Hawk, but to equate rolling the brim of your cap to a "badge of honor" seems kind of silly. No slight intended to the Rangers...just my 2 cents.

Putting a curve in the brim is a different concept than a Ranger roll. The Ranger roll is when you fold the top to create a dog dish look on the top of the hat. Putting a small curve in the brim is practical, as long as it's not taken to an extreme.

Thanks Hawk....I guess I'm not that familiar with the "Ranger Roll." I just assumed that it was rolling the brim. I agree with your point that a small curve in the brim is practical as long as it is not too excessive. A straight brim with no curve at all just looks ridicules.

Thanks for the clarification!

On SARMedTech's point about his unit not allowing cadets to wear the BBDU....don't the regs say that cadets can wear the BBDU? I was always under the assumption that a unit commander could add to the regulation, but not take away from it. How can a unit CC tell a cadet he can not wear a CAP utility uniform that CAPM 39-1 say they can? I know that is the USAF rule of thumb...a CC can add to a HHQ regulation of tech data, but not take away from.

Just wondering...

[SARMedTech]

Nothing against the "Rangers" here, but I would never wear a baseball style cap without rolling the brim. A flat (straight) brim on a ball cap looks ridicules.

In 20+ years in CAP I have never heard or been told not to roll the brim of my CAP. I have never been to Hawk, but to equate rolling the brim of your cap to a "badge of honor" seems kind of silly. No slight intended to the Rangers...just my 2 cents.

Putting a curve in the brim is a different concept than a Ranger roll. The Ranger roll is when you fold the top to create a dog dish look on the top of the hat. Putting a small curve in the brim is practical, as long as it's not taken to an extreme.

Thanks Hawk....I guess I'm not that familiar with the "Ranger Roll." I just assumed that it was rolling the brim. I agree with your point that a small curve in the brim is practical as long as it is not too excessive. A straight brim with no curve at all just looks ridicules.

Thanks for the clarification!

On SARMedTech's point about his unit not allowing cadets to wear the BBDU....don't the regs say that cadets can wear the BBDU? I was always under the assumption that a unit commander could add to the regulation, but not take away from it. How can a unit CC tell a cadet he can not wear a CAP utility uniform that CAPM 39-1 say they can? I know that is the USAF rule of thumb...a CC can add to a HHQ regulation of tech data, but not take away from.

Just wondering...

Let me clarify because re-reading what i wrote i see that it is obviously both clearly misleading because of the terminology i used, but also not what I meant to say:

Our cadets are told that wear of the BBDU is "STRONGLY DISCOURAGED" and so all of them have decided that that means what it is intended to mean which is "DON'T."   I havent see our cadets wear them ever, in fact our cadets are more squared away than many of our Officers. If the cadets are allowed to wear the BBDU, per CAP regs, they have chosen not to either because of the strong wording of the CO or because cadets prefer camo. In fact, so far, I had not seen a cadet in BBDUs before the photo posted in this thread. I understood that they were required to wear AF style uniforms. We certainly have no cadets (unlike our officers ) who would be prevented from wearing AF style because of weight or facial hair and to date I havent seen any screw ups in uniform or bling wear from the cadets. We do have an older (read about 75 year old) SM who from time to time will insist that he be allowed to wear ribbons on the golf shirt, but that rebellion is quickly put down. Hes a very nice man, with a distinguished CAP and military service record with more decorations than Patton...he is a bit of a curmudgeon but he is still the one I go to when I want the straight poop.

When I first signed on, I had to wear BBDUs due to weight. This didnt bother me. Now for the sake of my health, I have lost sufficient weight to allow me to wear AF style. I do sometimes wear my BBDUs, but largely because the ES officers in my squad have decided that for certain things, they would like to wear something distinctive and we are all on the same page as far as what we will wear on the BBDUs so we have sort of an ES uniform...unofficially of course.

[SarDragon]

3. BDU Cap: Either the USAF or Army style BDU cap or camouflage BDU baseball cap may be worn
with the BDU uniform. Senior members, cadet NCOs, and airmen do not wear any type of insignia
on the cap. Cadet officers wear the embroidered grade insignia centered 1/2 inch above the visor on
the BDU cap. Cap will not be worn crushed or rolled. Marine style BDU cap is not authorized.

c. Field Uniform: The CAP field uniform is an optional uniform that may be worn by both cadets and
senior members for field activities or any time the AF-style BDU uniform is normally worn.

All emphasis mine.

[Viper QA]

That makes sense....there is a big difference between "STRONGLY DISCOURAGE" & not allowed.

As a unit CC myself there are certain things that I prefer, but I would never make policy that takes away from the regulation. I do however "STRONGLY ENCOURAGE" & "STRONGLY DISCOURAGE" various things.

I also agree that most cadets prefer the camo BDU & would wear it over the BBDU.

[CadetProgramGuy]

3. BDU Cap: Either the USAF or Army style BDU cap or camouflage BDU baseball cap may be worn
with the BDU uniform. Senior members, cadet NCOs, and airmen do not wear any type of insignia
on the cap. Cadet officers wear the embroidered grade insignia centered 1/2 inch above the visor on
the BDU cap. Cap will not be worn crushed or rolled. Marine style BDU cap is not authorized.

c. Field Uniform: The CAP field uniform is an optional uniform that may be worn by both cadets and
senior members for field activities or any time the AF-style BDU uniform is normally worn.

All emphasis mine.

This is from CAP National Knowledgebase

See August 2006 National Board Minutes
AGENDA ITEM 19 Action
SUBJECT: New Business

[bold]4. ITEM: Wear of Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain Uniforms & Devices
COL FAGAN/MO MOVED AND COL LEVITCH/FL SECONDED that the National Board vote to allow wear of the Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain head gear by cadets and senior members on both the BDUs and dress uniform.
COL NELSON/CA MOVED TO AMEND AND COL OPLAND/DE SECONDED the amendment to allow wear of both activity head gear only on BDUs.
MOTION TO AMEND CARRIED
COL DAVIES/NATCAP MOVED TO AMEND AND COL FAGAN/MO SECONDED the amendment to allow wear of head gear at the discretion of wing commanders.
MOTION DID NOT PASS
MAJ GEN PINEDA RESTATED THE AMENDED MOTION: The members can wear the head gear that they get at Hawk Mountain and Blue Beret with their blue BDUs and green BDUs only.
COL LEVITCH/FL MOVED TO AMEND AND COL APPLEBAUM/PA SECONDED the amendment to allow the wear of any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head from Hawk Mountain and Blue Beret with BDUs only.[/bold]
MOTION TO AMEND CARRIED
COL OPLAND/DE MOVED TO AMEND to allow wear of any distinctive head gear awarded at any national special cadet activities.
MOTION TO AMEND DIED FOR LACK OF A SECOND
ANOTHER RESTATEMENT OF THE AMENDED MOTION: All members that attend the Blue Beret and national Hawk Mountain training can wear any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head gear with their BDUs, blue or green.
AMENDED MOTION CARRIED
FOLLOW-ON ACTION: National Headquarters implementation of policy, notification to the field and change to appropriate CAP regulations.

[RogueLeader]

Please note the following thread: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2468.0
Please discontinue the BBDU topic and any other topic than the ABU from here.  Thank you.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Please note the following thread: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2468.0
Please discontinue the BBDU topic and any other topic than the ABU from here.  Thank you.

sorry, didn't realize you had Moderator Status......

[RogueLeader]

It's not that, but it was started by me, and it was not accomplishing what I wanted it to.  I asked, numerous times and very politely, to keep it on topic.  This was not working, so I created a BBDU thread for them, and ask that they leave my ABU thread alone.
I apologize to those who were offended.

[James]

 

[MIKE]

^ Mmkay... that's an Army Combat Uniform (ACU)... Not an Airman Battle Uniform (ABU).

[♠SARKID♠]

I'm betting on 5-7 years.  It'll take a while for CAP to phase out the BDUs and get in the ABU's.  Note that ABU's wont even be required by USAF until 2011, add on CAP snail time and your looking 5-7.  What Im curious to know is if CAP will keep BDUs as a CAP distinctive uniform

[CadetProgramGuy]

Bad image of the ABU...

[attachment deleted by admin]

[James]

^ Mmkay... that's an Army Combat Uniform (ACU)... Not an Airman Battle Uniform (ABU).

Yeah made you look

[A.Member]

Who would think that this would be a good time to tansition to the just the BBDUs?

Another vote here for NEVER!

Not to start any rumors, but did I hear correctly that BDU's are no longer being made available through DRMO?  If so, given this, it seems that our future supply line may be in question.

[jimmydeanno]

^correct.

[PaulR]

I dont like the idea of the CAP getting combat style uniforms.  What is the purpose?  To be honest, I dont even like the current BDU style uniform, the way it is.  I think that it looks tacky with the blue name tapes.
I think that the new camo patterns will look even worse.

What ever happened to the old plain green fatiques?  I really liked those. :-(


I would think that if the CAP needed a new work uniform, a simular uniform to that used by the Coast Guard would look the best with the current insignia.