As many of you know I am a new commander. I am prior service Army and I know what I would do if this was a service member. As a CAP squadron commander I don't want to seem to hard but I don't want to appear to soft either. I had a cadet show up to a leadership school with a application that stated "commander verbal authorization" in my signature block. The school commander called me and of course I knew nothing about this cadet being there so I had him sent home. I now have to deal with him at the squadron and I know what the book says what I can do but I have no clue how to handle this. I am reaching out to the more experienced group to lead this young pup in the right direction. I want to 2B him but I am being told that is to harsh and may not get the backing of the Wing Commander. Help me out here.....
First time offense? Yeah that's a bit harsh. You should look at the whole person. Is this a problem child cadet, a cadet who just had a brain dump etc....
Without more details it would be hard to say and it's something to be discussed with your CP staff and Group CC.
So essentially... what the cadet did was stop one step below actually forging your signature?
First and foremost cadets are kids. Why didn't the cadet just get your signature? Did the cadet fail to plan and really wanted to go? Was he told not to go and went anyway? With cadets, you do need to consider home life. What do the parents say, if anything? Can the cadet be suspended from promotion for a couple months? Whats the cadets past history like? Was this out of character or was this a life lesson?
I always refer back to 2 specific cadets my late friend Rick Finkelstein worked with. Both were from terrible homes, lived in gang neighborhoods, had ZERO respect for authority and at one point one of them challenged the Cadet CC to a fight. Rick had been a teacher in the Oakland School district in CA. Long story short... both of those "kids" are now grown and in the military. My cop mindset was to toss them out for the garbage man. Ricks mindset was "no..... lets work with them a while longer and see what happens."
So as you proceed, just keep in mind cadets are kids still making mistakes.
I have never met this cadet. He transferred into the squadron and has been to one meeting. I would have gladly authorized him to go to the course.
Sounds like a parent teacher conference is in order.
Then some counselling/mentoring is in order and an explanation about how things work. Tossing the kid for a first time offense is a bit harsh.
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 19, 2016, 05:19:47 PM
Then some counselling/mentoring is in order and an explanation about how things work. Tossing the kid for a first time offense is a bit harsh.
I agree.
Quote from: Flying Pig on March 19, 2016, 05:18:21 PM
Sounds like a parent teacher conference is in order.
If the first doesn't work, this is the second try...
Would a reduction in one grade(FromTech) be fitting is would this be to harsh as well?
Quote from: Pedfltmed22 on March 19, 2016, 05:15:22 PM
I have never met this cadet. He transferred into the squadron and has been to one meeting. I would have gladly authorized him to go to the course.
He didn't get verbal auth from his old CC did he?
Quote from: Pedfltmed22 on March 19, 2016, 05:41:11 PM
Would a reduction in one grade(FromTech) be fitting is would this be to harsh as well?
Ok I get wanting to drop the hammer and throw the book at the kid. But you don't know him that well or his history, are you going to do the same for the rest of your cadets when they an error along the same lines or any lines?
Counsel/mentor and explain the expectations for attending activities. You drop the hammer on this then you should be dropping it on the rest of the cadets for offenses along the same lines.
Are you prepared to have your numbers dropped because you chose a severe form of punishment so early???
Quote from: Pedfltmed22 on March 19, 2016, 05:41:11 PM
Would a reduction in one grade(FromTech) be fitting is would this be to harsh as well?
I would use this opportunity to lay down your "law" for him.
He is brand new to the unit like you stated. Maybe his last unit this was accepted in?
Take some time to sit down one on one with him. Be stern but also fair. Give him a warning. Or as my SNCO's loved to say "put the fear of God into him". I am sure you know that speech well. Just remember he is a child still.
Use this moment as a teaching tool for him and for you. You should have meet him as soon as he transferred in to the unit.
Good luck!
Quote from: Goblin on March 19, 2016, 05:44:15 PM
Quote from: Pedfltmed22 on March 19, 2016, 05:15:22 PM
I have never met this cadet. He transferred into the squadron and has been to one meeting. I would have gladly authorized him to go to the course.
He didn't get verbal auth from his old CC did he?
Wouldn't matter there needs to be a sig from the cc CDC or someone who this was delegated too. Most activities wont take an app without a sig.
No he did not get auth from his old commander. When he was questioned by the staff he stuck with his story that he had auth from me until I was on the phone then he came clean. His older brother is in the squadron and his father was a member for a time.
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 19, 2016, 05:46:37 PM
Quote from: Goblin on March 19, 2016, 05:44:15 PM
Quote from: Pedfltmed22 on March 19, 2016, 05:15:22 PM
I have never met this cadet. He transferred into the squadron and has been to one meeting. I would have gladly authorized him to go to the course.
He didn't get verbal auth from his old CC did he?
Wouldn't matter there needs to be a sig from the cc CDC or someone who this was delegated too. Most activities wont take an app without a sig.
Right.
But if the old CC wasn't aware of this and the cadet was led to believe this was okay, I can understand the issue.
Quote from: Pedfltmed22 on March 19, 2016, 05:49:57 PM
No he did not get auth from his old commander. When he was questioned by the staff he stuck with his story that he had auth from me until I was on the phone then he came clean.
Copy.
Then time to have a chat.
Some cadets earnestly don't know that things like that are a big no-go unless we tell them.
With a sibling and parent in, he should know ...
But I'd never assume.
It's a teachable moment for everyone.
It's common sense to the full-time senior NCO in you and field grade in me but not to a teenager.
I have had to step back many times when confronted with "sir, I honestly didn't know - no one ever explained that to me."
Giving cadets the benefit of the doubt sometimes is a good thing, since on occasion they honestly don't know. In this case, sticking to his story until confronted with his CC's denial that he'd ever given this cadet permission, verbal or otherwise, shows intent. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...
In this case, sitting down with the young man in question, espousing the Core Values of Integrity and Excellence, and letting him know that fraudulent use of your position and name on a CAP form could be grounds for instant dismissal may work.
Teachable moment.
Now, if it, or something similar happens in the future, THEN I'd say further steps would be warranted, up to and including termination. Things like withholding advancement, removal from positions, withholding endorsement for activities, and demotion normally work. I say "up to and including termination" because you can't just threaten and threaten without having a final fallback. Just like any normal job, if you get put on notice, you will see that they cover their butt by saying "any further action of this nature may result in further punitive action up to and including termination". At least my company does.
^^^ wise counsel
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 20, 2016, 03:58:25 PM
Giving cadets the benefit of the doubt sometimes is a good thing, since on occasion they honestly don't know. In this case, sticking to his story until confronted with his CC's denial that he'd ever given this cadet permission, verbal or otherwise, shows intent. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...
In this case, sitting down with the young man in question, espousing the Core Values of Integrity and Excellence, and letting him know that fraudulent use of your position and name on a CAP form could be grounds for instant dismissal may work.
Teachable moment.
Now, if it, or something similar happens in the future, THEN I'd say further steps would be warranted, up to and including termination. Things like withholding advancement, removal from positions, withholding endorsement for activities, and demotion normally work. I say "up to and including termination" because you can't just threaten and threaten without having a final fallback. Just like any normal job, if you get put on notice, you will see that they cover their butt by saying "any further action of this nature may result in further punitive action up to and including termination". At least my company does.
^^Good and sensible advice.
Use it in a Character Development session when discussing INTEGRITY
The Group Commander suggested an honor board made up of three SM's. They will make a recommendation to me on how to handle this situation.
Quote from: Pedfltmed22 on March 21, 2016, 01:39:09 AM
The Group Commander suggested an honor board made up of three SM's. They will make a recommendation to me on how to handle this situation.
I think that's a good idea. Sometimes when it comes to cadets things have to be handled with a little more care than with adults. I don't necessarily agree that it should have to be that way, but I think we've all made a stupid mistake that we were only lightly punished for and are a better person because we learned our lesson.
Quote from: MSG Mac on March 20, 2016, 11:45:45 PM
Use it in a Character Development session when discussing INTEGRITY
Though I appreciate the intent, the CAPR 265-1requires all CDIs and Chaplains to use the material approved by the Chief. This protects both the one who presents as well as the corporation. I would suggest that the poster finds a published lesson that fits this situation....or writes a lesson based on this situation and gets it approved for use.
Quote from: Pedfltmed22 on March 21, 2016, 01:39:09 AM
The Group Commander suggested an honor board made up of three SM's. They will make a recommendation to me on how to handle this situation.
And what exactly is an "Honor Board"?
What are its powers?
What are its governing regulations?
What are its procedures?
What are the rights of the accused?
What are the appeal procedures?
I'm sorry about hammering you on this, it is not really your fault. But it would be better if YOU got to the "truth" of the situation then you meet with your trusted advisor to come up with a game plan.
I offer these three points for consideration:
1) It seems that you have verified that he did it. But, have you learned WHY he did it? Did someone tell him it was OK? Was he afraid to ask you to sign it? Couldn't be bothered? Different explanations could result in different outcomes.
2) We know he is a cadet, but...how old? Adding his "why" to his age could be telling. And, what grade? Was this a 12-year old Cadet Airman who didn't know better or who felt intimidated? Or a 17-year old Cadet Captain who just tried to pull a fast one, despite knowing the rules and risks? Again, outcome could depend on the fact set.
3) Personally, I don't agree that "punishment" is the best choice of word for this topic. We are in the business of cranking out "Dynamic Americans and Aerospace Leaders." Punishment really isn't part of that, although discipline is. And discipline comes from the Latin "disciplina," meaning "instruction given, teaching, learning, knowledge" - all of which will be done or imparted in this case.
Quote from: lordmonar on March 21, 2016, 04:11:19 AM
Quote from: Pedfltmed22 on March 21, 2016, 01:39:09 AM
The Group Commander suggested an honor board made up of three SM's. They will make a recommendation to me on how to handle this situation.
And what exactly is an "Honor Board"?
What are its powers?
What are its governing regulations?
What are its procedures?
What are the rights of the accused?
What are the appeal procedures?
I'm sorry about hammering you on this, it is not really your fault. But it would be better if YOU got to the "truth" of the situation then you meet with your trusted advisor to come up with a game plan.
I agree with that. "Honor board" is one of those nebulous things that sounds good but has too much room for individual interpretation and isn't even covered by regulations. You don't need a board to help sort it out. You don't need a board to tell you what to do. You are the squadron commander - so, command the squadron.
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on March 21, 2016, 05:58:53 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on March 21, 2016, 04:11:19 AM
Quote from: Pedfltmed22 on March 21, 2016, 01:39:09 AM
The Group Commander suggested an honor board made up of three SM's. They will make a recommendation to me on how to handle this situation.
And what exactly is an "Honor Board"?
What are its powers?
What are its governing regulations?
What are its procedures?
What are the rights of the accused?
What are the appeal procedures?
I'm sorry about hammering you on this, it is not really your fault. But it would be better if YOU got to the "truth" of the situation then you meet with your trusted advisor to come up with a game plan.
I agree with that. "Honor board" is one of those nebulous things that sounds good but has too much room for individual interpretation and isn't even covered by regulations. You don't need a board to help sort it out. You don't need a board to tell you what to do. You are the squadron commander - so, command the squadron.
^ This.
Get to the facts, exactly as you would with an employee in a company. Counsel / advise / mentor...within the rules! I nearly got sucked into something like this a few years ago, relating to a SM. Bad place to go. My advise to the CC was exactly as suggested by lordmonar and Mitchell1969; in the end the SM departed but that was the bets thing too happen, and we stayed within the regs - good for all concerned.
Quote from: Pedfltmed22 on March 21, 2016, 01:39:09 AM
The Group Commander suggested an honor board made up of three SM's. They will make a recommendation to me on how to handle this situation.
This is, in general, the way I would advise against unless there was some overriding reason to remove the commander from the decision/fact-finding loop (ie. conflict of interest. A legit one, not a perceived or assumed one)
This would be akin to an NCO being told "You can't counsel that shamming Specialist for his tardiness to formation. You have to grab three other NCOs to speak to him and give you a recommendation as to how to proceed." Right.
Commanders who abrogate their responsibility and command prerogative generally can't get it back that easily.
I'm not sure I would consider an "honor board" to be a "legal" way of doing things. Just my opinion, but it sounds too much like something a military academy would do to prosecute honor violations. Which we do not do.
Handle it at the lowest echelon, which is the unit CC. Unless it involves a cadet protection violation, or the theft and joyriding of a corporate vehicle or aircraft, this should remain within the unit CC's purview.
Just my .02
As a new CC, how you handle this could shape the perception of your members for the rest of your tenure.
The knee jerk is to "get this kid", but part of your job is developing him as a leader, and as a parent, I can tell you that
kids do dumb things for what "seemed like a good idea at the time".
A sit-down with his parents is probably your best option, with the first step being to ascertain "why" this happened at all.
Beyond a temporary demotion, or retaining him in grade for a while, your options are pretty limited beyond terminating him,
especially if you are interested in more then mere punishment.
Assuming he wants to stay a member to start with, you can only push so hard before he'll simply quit.
As mentioned, "honor boards" aren't a "thing" in CAP, and whomever suggested that is misguided at best. If they disagree,
ask them for the regulation or pamphlet that spells out the procedure for you relinquishing your authority over one of your members
and delegating it to another body. You, as CC, are the sole authority on membership and disciplinary action. Appeal of those
actions is the next higher echelon, but not the initiator.
You're the Commander. Command.
If it's advice you're looking for:
1) get the cadet in to see you, with at least one parent
2) have your deputy for cadets present, if possible; if not, at least another reliable senior as witness
3) discuss the incident, but do it in the context of te cadet's status within CAP and the unit -- attendance, progress, level of maturity, ability to accept personal responsibility
4) listen -- a lot
5) don't feel you have to render an on the psot decision...it's good to consider what is said, as well as attidues -- and, besides, sometimes waiting for the "verdict" is enough to get the individual's attention. I'd tend to wait at least 3 days, maybe as much as 7, before delivering the final decision.
2B sounds extreme at this point, since we are supposed to practice progressive discipline.
And the honor board idea is just asking for an IG complaint against you
Have the discussion, then if you decide that a standard has not been met follow up with a CAPF 50 which includes specific guidance on meeting that standard. Include the success criteria and time by when the cadet needs to have met that criteria. Feedback gives the cadet something to guide him.