I remember once someone brought up the issue of not allowing seniors carry firearms even if they are qualified (because of dangerous wildlife).
Someone responded with the comment that CAP Squadrons should not be taking anyone where there's dangerous wildlife.
Below is a picture from Billings Montana School (I believe this week):(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/15/307c0bf995823872b300dee71bedd8b4.jpg)
Funny picture.
But just for clarification, CAP members can't carry firearms because it's prohibited by regulations unless required by law.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 15, 2015, 04:43:42 PM
Funny picture.
But just for clarification, CAP members can't carry firearms because it's prohibited by regulations unless required by law.
You are correct! I was just remembering a conversation about people arguing over why Seniors should be allowed to and things went from there.
Quote from: KatCAP on October 15, 2015, 04:38:07 PM
I remember once someone brought up the issue of not allowing seniors carry firearms even if they are qualified (because of dangerous wildlife).
Someone responded with the comment that CAP Squadrons should not be taking anyone where there's dangerous wildlife.
Below is a picture from Billings Montana School (I believe this week):(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/15/307c0bf995823872b300dee71bedd8b4.jpg)
Here's another one near a Boise, Idaho School.
NOTE: This isn't a discussion for or against having seniors carry firearms - thats pretty clear in the regs. It is however to ensure certain individuals understand that in the western states there are other considerations. You just can't take cadets where there is no dangerous animals, out here you have to keep alert for them, even down town in the middle of the city.
I know Florida have the same issue with Alligators.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/15/81c2ce2f9d87372c7942b506ed0f7049.jpg)
Its quite amazing where you find alligators in FL.
We have gators in NC at the coast that loves to swim in the ocean. Ever so often they will come up on the beach at Carolina Beach near Wilmington. Kind of bad when you have to look out for sharks and gators too when you are swimming.
At Camp San Luis Obispo, CA where CAWG usually conducts their Encampments we have a number of wild animals on the post with us to include turkeys, deer, bobcats, mountain lions, skunks, wild pigs and coyotes.
And no one feels the need to be armed. Interesting...
Quote from: TarRiverRat on October 16, 2015, 12:55:11 AM
We have gators in NC at the coast that loves to swim in the ocean. Ever so often they will come up on the beach at Carolina Beach near Wilmington. Kind of bad when you have to look out for sharks and gators too when you are swimming.
That is true of most of the gulf coast states: Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, Florida, Mississippi
Quote from: PHall on October 16, 2015, 01:33:27 AM
At Camp San Luis Obispo, CA where CAWG usually conducts their Encampments we have a number of wild animals on the post with us to include turkeys, deer, bobcats, mountain lions, skunks, wild pigs and coyotes.
And no one feels the need to be armed. Interesting...
Most CA residents don't go messing with the wildlife.... While on vacation I came across a bobcat in the middle of the road and started snapping pics and then realized maybe it wasn't such a great idea to do so with the window rolled down just in case...
Quote from: KatCAP on October 15, 2015, 04:59:38 PM
I know Florida have the same issue with Alligators.
We also have a problem with bears. This October (24-30) Florida will have its first Bear Season in 21 years. The state has gone from a few hundred to over 3,000 bears in that time.
I carried in Az all the time unless I was on base or at CAP. That was mainly due to 2 legged critters. Though there was the dog who broke free and charged me on my way home from the store.
Quote from: PHall on October 16, 2015, 01:33:27 AM
At Camp San Luis Obispo, CA where CAWG usually conducts their Encampments we have a number of wild animals on the post with us to include turkeys, deer, bobcats, mountain lions, skunks, wild pigs and coyotes.
And no one feels the need to be armed. Interesting...
The geography of that base makes it a bit harder to surprise an animal than the remote forests in Idaho, not the same thing at all. Your comparison is very short sighted... We also have grizzly bears, grey wolves (known for sport killing), and plenty of two legged forest dwelling critters that don't want anything to do with the " The Feds" or anyone near their grow/cook sites (I'm quite sure you have your share of these as well, whether you see them or not). The two legged ones cause me the most concern, but I still remain alert and prepared for the others.
Considering the amount of recorded coyote and mountain lion attacks in your state though (many fatal), I find it curious that you say no one feels the need to carry a means to defend themselves from potentially dangerous animals or humans. For most of us in Idaho though, we still prefer fight to flight. Best of luck to you, Sir.
Quote from: PHall on October 16, 2015, 01:33:27 AM
At Camp San Luis Obispo, CA where CAWG usually conducts their Encampments we have a number of wild animals on the post with us to include turkeys, deer, bobcats, mountain lions, skunks, wild pigs and coyotes.
And no one feels the need to be armed. Interesting...
The Sheriffs Office runs a youth camp during the summer up in the foothills near Fresno. During the camp, they staff a deputy position whose job is to foot patrol with a shotgun with slugs. I worked that detail a couple times. And each time I worked it, I ended up with my shotgun up in my shoulder for a bear wandering the perimeter of the camp. Interesting...... location location location. Besides, SLO is a fairly liberal area. Those animals arent going to hurt anyone. >:D
Actually, Camp SLO crawls with armed personnel, just none of them ( Allegedly) are CAP. There is so much noise on the base, that big game is pretty rare, and I have crawled around the wildest parts in the dead of night. I would not send a Cadet out alone at night in the remote areas ( Not simply because of the fear of the dreaded California Coastal Deer, which is slightly larger and more aggressive than the fearsome California skunk) but because of the very remote chance of a Mountain Lion, for which I have found sign. The piggies are usually not the big nasty Russian Boars, and I have never seen a bear near the camp ( Seems they don't like explosions much) In the Cadet Survival School, held on Camp SLO, we of course trained Cadets to slay anything up to a medium-sized Yeti using only a number #2 pencil. I have seen a few small Rattlers, but the only animal-related injuries I have seen there were insect bites and stings, and one gruesome tick related injury, which was treated with laughter. If someone had a gun, I am not confident that opening fire on body-ticks or Yellow Jackets would be a sound strategy. Our worst "Casualty" was an instructor who bivouacked in a nice shady grove of Poison Oak. 98% of multiple shootings ( of which there are actually very few, and are declining in number) take place in "Gun Free" zones, and while I find it irritating that CAP hates guns, You can A) play by the rules, B) Don't play, or C) break the rules and see what happens. I have opted to error on the side of caution and not carry my sidearm on CAP Business. If a few of my fellow CAP members have to be slain to show the wrongful, immoral, and futile value of affirmative self-defense, that's just a cost I guess I will have to bear....( In the meantime, try to stand next to someone wider and taller than you) I am glad that our California Bear are not particularly large and aggressive, if they were, I would try to find a cadet with a lower one mile-time than mine for any back-woods trips.
Many centuries ago, when people played maybe a little faster and looser with the rules that they do even now, as a C/TSgt I went to an activity that was held in a very remote part of Northern Michigan.
We had a number of firearms available for use on our rudimentary rifle range at this activity. A number of 22 caliber bolt action rifles and at least one M-1 Garand.
One night, just after lights out, we were all rousted from our tents due to a bear in the trash pit adjacent to the camp. As a city boy, the sight of a bear uncontained by the structures of a zoo was rather surprising to me. We were, as they say, out in the boonies.
Since I had just wired up the spotlight on our watchtower, I scampered up to train the light on the bear. I looked down to see one of the cadet officers standing on the ground below me with the M-1 casually over his shoulder. You are not in Kansas anymore Toto.
Later that week we went on a bivouac away from the camp. One of the senior members was a deputy sheriff, and was carrying his revolver. The next morning we were awakened to reports of a bear nearby, and the lieutenant was off in the woods. He shot at something a couple times. No idea what.
At the end of the second week we went on a longer bivouac with a 12 mile trek. The cadet commander had a 12-ga shotgun sticking vertically out of his ARVN ruck.
"What's that for? "
"Bobcat, bear... whatever. "
Yeah.....
I guess New Jersey is in the west....
Plenty of bears, and rattlesnakes, and big cats roamin' them there hills...
Although there are a number of bears in Alabama there is a simple way to avoid being mauled. All that's required is:
1. Never go walking in the woods alone.
2. Always make sure your walking partner is a slower runner than you.
In light of the rising frequency of human/grizzly bear confrontations, the New Jersey Department of Fish and Game is advising hikers, hunters, and fishermen to take extra precautions and be alert for bears while in the field. ...We advise that outdoorsmen wear small bells on their clothing so as not to startle bears that aren't expecting them, and to carry pepper spray with them in case of an encounter....
It is also a good idea to watch out for fresh signs of bear activity. Outdoorsmen should recognize the difference between black bear and grizzly bear droppings. Black bear droppings are smaller and contain lots of berries and fur. Grizzly bear droppings have little bells in it and smell like pepper.
Quote
Grizzly bear ... little bells ...
Those little bells that outdoors people were wearing previous to the encounter?
>:D
Since this has always been a point of contention for me, let us put this into perspective shall we?
Note: These numbers come from a variety of different sources, but most sources cited the CDC.
A per year average of fatal "attacks" for the US:
Heart Disease: 611,000
Auto Accidents: 33,000
Lightning: 49
Mosquitos: Unknown number people in the US, but over 4 million in the world
Ticks: Unknown but <1000--Lyme was an average of 8 and RMSF an average of 8 in the US. Other tick borne diseases, such as anaplasma, powassan, TBE, etc are unavailable.
Deer: 130 (mostly due to auto)
Bee, Wasps, Hornets: 53-58
Dogs: 28-31
Horse: 20
Cattle: >20
Venomous spiders (Black widow, Brown Recluse): 7
Rattlesnakes: 6 (another source says these are usually alcohol related)
Scorpions: 0.5
Centipedes: 0.5
Sharks: 1
Alligators: 1
Mountain lions: 1
Black Bears: 1
Grizzly Bears: 1 --27 fatal incidences in North America with 29 deaths in all of 2000s. Half in the US and the other half in Canada. 17 black bears; 10 grizzlies
Wolf: 0 --no fatal wild attacks in the US since 1888, but a few children from pet wolves
Alligator: <1
Quote from: THRAWN on October 16, 2015, 01:36:12 PM
Grizzly bear droppings have little bells in it and smell like pepper.
@#$%. I read that straight and then snarfed coffee out my nose.
Quote from: NIN on October 16, 2015, 04:10:03 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on October 16, 2015, 01:36:12 PM
Grizzly bear droppings have little bells in it and smell like pepper.
@#$%. I read that straight and then snarfed coffee out my nose.
Yeah, kinda sneaks up on you...
I just don't think we should let Deer with bad hearts drive cars while drinking...Think of how many lives could be saved! As far as snake bites go, in my years spent in Emergency Medicine, I don't recall a single case that did not involve a drunken man ( No women, strangely enough) trying to handle or otherwise antagonize one of our tasty Pacific Rattle snakes. Darwin at work. I would think in Alabama, any wildlife that flies, walks, or creepeth upon the earth would steer clear of Alabamans', who no doubt have a recipe for any of God's creatures they may come across, usually involving deep-frying, breading, bacon, and other wholesome and nutritious food preparations. I miss the South sometimes.... I am surprised that food allergies (i.e, peanuts) did not even have as many fatalities as wolf attacks. This makes my case to my wife for a pet wolf seem like a much more presentable deal!
Quote from: LSThiker on October 16, 2015, 02:33:13 PM
Since this has always been a point of contention for me, let us put this into perspective shall we?
Note: These numbers come from a variety of different sources, but most sources cited the CDC.
A per year average of fatal "attacks" for the US:
Heart Disease: 611,000
Auto Accidents: 33,000
Lightning: 49
Mosquitos: Unknown number people in the US, but over 4 million in the world
Ticks: Unknown but <1000--Lyme was an average of 8 and RMSF an average of 8 in the US. Other tick borne diseases, such as anaplasma, powassan, TBE, etc are unavailable.
Deer: 130 (mostly due to auto)
Bee, Wasps, Hornets: 53-58
Dogs: 28-31
Horse: 20
Cattle: >20
Venomous spiders (Black widow, Brown Recluse): 7
Rattlesnakes: 6 (another source says these are usually alcohol related)
Scorpions: 0.5
Centipedes: 0.5
Sharks: 1
Alligators: 1
Mountain lions: 1
Black Bears: 1
Grizzly Bears: 1 --27 fatal incidences in North America with 29 deaths in all of 2000s. Half in the US and the other half in Canada. 17 black bears; 10 grizzlies
Wolf: 0 --no fatal wild attacks in the US since 1888, but a few children from pet wolves
Alligator: <1
Hahaha, maybe it will pass her review this time with the facts in evidence? :P
Quote from: LSThiker on October 16, 2015, 02:33:13 PM
Since this has always been a point of contention for me, let us put this into perspective shall we?
Note: These numbers come from a variety of different sources, but most sources cited the CDC.
A per year average of fatal "attacks" for the US:
Heart Disease: 611,000
Auto Accidents: 33,000
Lightning: 49
Mosquitos: Unknown number people in the US, but over 4 million in the world
Ticks: Unknown but <1000--Lyme was an average of 8 and RMSF an average of 8 in the US. Other tick borne diseases, such as anaplasma, powassan, TBE, etc are unavailable.
Deer: 130 (mostly due to auto)
Bee, Wasps, Hornets: 53-58
Dogs: 28-31
Horse: 20
Cattle: >20
Venomous spiders (Black widow, Brown Recluse): 7
Rattlesnakes: 6 (another source says these are usually alcohol related)
Scorpions: 0.5
Centipedes: 0.5
Sharks: 1
Alligators: 1
Mountain lions: 1
Black Bears: 1
Grizzly Bears: 1 --27 fatal incidences in North America with 29 deaths in all of 2000s. Half in the US and the other half in Canada. 17 black bears; 10 grizzlies
Wolf: 0 --no fatal wild attacks in the US since 1888, but a few children from pet wolves
Alligator: <1
I find it entertaining that they quote "half of a death" attributed to alligators, scorpions, and centipedes... I would be curious to read the factors at play in those cases. Did one person get a single bite from all three that caused death from blood loss and poisoning at the same time? :P
There may be less deaths attributed to all of these than car accidents, but that doesn't mean I want any of them to happen to me. I apply an amount of ORM to everything I do sub-consciously, and my control for entering known territories of deadly animals is to bring a weapon. If you think I'm unreasonable, that is your opinion, and your right.
Unfortunately CAP doesn't allow that control, so while I accept that reality I'm forced to hope a less lethal option will be up to the task. I can think of a recent Wolf attack in Idaho from 2011 that was thwarted by a grandmother, because she carried a weapon capable of leveling the playing field between her and the wolf. I was always told in the Marine Corps "Don't be the One"... I apply that to this situation as well!
It always amazes me when people quote the stats of non-violent deaths as a reason not to attempt mitigation of those that are violent... but that wasn't what you were trying to do, right? :angel:
Also, just a spot check of the wolf kill numbers proves to be misleading, I find 2005 in Saskatchewan, Canada and 2010 in Chignik Lake, Alaska of predatory human kills...
Lies, [darn]ed lies, and... well, you know...
Quote from: The Infamous Meerkat on October 16, 2015, 07:22:09 PM
I find it entertaining that they quote "half of a death" attributed to alligators, scorpions, and centipedes... I would be curious to read the factors at play in those cases. Did one person get a single bite from all three that caused death from blood loss and poisoning at the same time?
The original post of the stats did say:
A per year average of fatal "attacks" for the US:.
Since the sampling period was not stated, but assumed to be >2 years, the numbers <1 do make sense.
Noticed after posting...
As SarDragon has pointed out it was more than two years. The time period depends on the animal. Most were 10-20 years. Although I think the bears and mountain lions go back to the early 1900s.
The stats did not lie about the wolf. Rather that was my own information being out of date. I remember reading that from an article in 2009-2010. So even if we take her one death in Alaska and be bold to add the Canada and be even more bold to tack on 2 more for extra precaution, that would put the average number of fatal wolf attacks from 1888 to ~0.03 per year. So basically still 0.
Sure we can put up as much ancedotal evidence that we want to demonstrate a minor point. Nevertheless, it does negate the fact that fatal animal attacks are rare. Even attacks in general are not as common as people think. When you factor in other mitigations that are already recommende the ORM becomes extremely small. This is essentially what a number of national parks have done.
I'm sure that those people and their families wouldn't write off their "meaningless" deaths as easily as you have. Regardless of how frequent they happen, I'd rather be prepared and go home to my family at the event if it's all the same to you... Statistics don't change the fact that the events happen, and I happen to live in one of the places they do.
I'm going to use every available means of defense for my life and others, what's your plan?
Quote from: The Infamous Meerkat on October 17, 2015, 02:57:33 AM
I'm sure that those people and their families wouldn't write off their "meaningless" deaths as easily as you have. Regardless of how frequent they happen, I'd rather be prepared and go home to my family at the event if it's all the same to you... Statistics don't change the fact that the events happen, and I happen to live in one of the places they do.
Not to keep beating the dead horse (pun intended):
I am not one to write off the meaningless death of an animal quite as easily as you have. The problem with claiming meaningless or meaningful is a rather subjective claim that requires a point of view. From the animal's perspective, their (the humans in this case) deaths are meaningful. For it allowed the animal to protect their young so they can grow to become adults or it allowed the animal to survive one more day and ultimately continue the circle of life. From a human point of view, their deaths may or may not be meaningless. That is, as you claim that I view their deaths as a certain degree of meaningless (false, I might add). Or a person might see their deaths as meaningful. I might also point out that "meaningless" deaths happens everyday, but that does not mean it was a meaningless life. But every death is meaningful for only to those that look for it. However, please do not confuse a meaningless with a senseless death.
QuoteI'm going to use every available means of defense for my life and others, what's your plan?
My plan has been the same for all of thousands of miles I have walked in predator-held territory. It was the same when I snapped a photo of a grizzly bear that "popped" up about 20 yards away (my mistake). It was the same when I encountered the mountain lion in Colorado, wild boar and alligator in Texas, and black bear in Wyoming.
Quote from: LSThiker on October 16, 2015, 02:33:13 PM
A per year average of fatal "attacks" for the US:
Heart Disease: 611,000
CAP should encourage firearms and ban cheeseburgers.
Quote from: AirDX on October 20, 2015, 07:17:50 PM
Quote from: LSThiker on October 16, 2015, 02:33:13 PM
A per year average of fatal "attacks" for the US:
Heart Disease: 611,000
CAP should encourage firearms and ban cheeseburgers.
Or CAP could ban donuts and watch the revolution happen :)
Or CAP could ban flights and watch the stress go down...
Quote from: LSThiker on October 20, 2015, 07:56:59 PM
Quote from: AirDX on October 20, 2015, 07:17:50 PM
Quote from: LSThiker on October 16, 2015, 02:33:13 PM
A per year average of fatal "attacks" for the US:
Heart Disease: 611,000
CAP should encourage firearms and ban cheeseburgers.
Or CAP could ban donuts and watch the revolution happen :)
HERESY!!!!! BURN HIM!!!!! WITH FIRE!!!!!
To be honest, I'm more concerned about not being armed because of the 2 legged critters we all live around than I am the 4 legged ones myself, but as always YMMV.