CAP Talk

If you could submit a new ribbon to NHQ what would you submit?

Thank you

1. The Blue Ribbon for the most posts in CAPTalk (light blue and a little more lighter just like CAPTalk colors)

2. The Gray Ribbon Award for the biggest ribbon rack

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on November 19, 2014, 09:01:24 PM
1. The Blue Ribbon for the most posts in CAPTalk (light blue and a little more lighter just like CAPTalk colors)

2. The Gray Ribbon Award for the biggest ribbon rack

I'm sorry. I can't tell if you are taking this post seriously or not. I'm serious. I'm not trying to grain more posts. I'm asking a legitimate question.


Thank you

1. Post 9/11 Anti-Submarine Warfare Duty.  Device authorized for every five submarines sunk.

2. Air to Air Combat Ribbon.  Device authorized for every five aircraft shot down in a CAP aircraft.

3. Mascot Ribbon.  Device authorized for every ten hours spent in a Cadet Ken mascot costume.

4. Inter-Squadron Recruitment Ribbon. Awarded after convincing three cadets to leave their squadron and join yours.  Devices awarded for every five subsequent cadets.

5. The Burt Rutan Aerospace Award.  For successfully building, flying, and winning in a Red Bull Flugtag event.

6. The Chelsey Sullenberger Award.  Landing off airport as a result of bird strike or fuel exhaustion.  Device awarded for every four bird strikes.  Can only be awarded once for fuel exhaustion.

Those are just off the top of my head.

Many years ago CAP had a ribbon for completing ECI ( now known as AFIADL) courses. Let's reinvent that one.

How about a 2b ribbon for anyone who submits new ribbon ideas?

Multiple awards are not authorized.

Okay....serious.....no....can't think of a single ribbon I would add.   I got a whole bunch I would consolidate or change.....but the only thing I can think of as and "add" would be to change the NRA marksman dangely to a ribbon.   

I'm generally against adding any ribbons, so the only one I would add would be a Recognition Ribbon, not unlike the AF has:

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13807.msg249657#msg249657 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13807.msg249657#msg249657)

I actually would suggest getting rid of a few ribbons instead of adding them. At least they allow cadets to short stack now which is a start I guess.

OP-sorry, you would have a far more successful response had you asked "If You Could Eliminate a Few Ribbons, Which Would You?"

How about a CAP MOH with a ribbon the color of the old berry boards? Or not. Too many already....

I would actually favor a ribbon if someone can find a photo of a CAP member berating a member of the military for not saluting. Maroon with gold and silver stripes. Devices for multiple photos...

:-X

Quote from: Panzerbjorn on November 19, 2014, 09:26:24 PM
3. Mascot Ribbon.  Device authorized for every ten hours spent in a Cadet Ken mascot costume.

Well, it is hazardous duty, so why not?

Quote
5. The Burt Rutan Aerospace Award.  For successfully building, flying, and winning in a Red Bull Flugtag event.

I actually kind of like that one, with red bull attachments for subsequent awards.

Quote from: usafcap1 on November 19, 2014, 08:57:46 PM
If you could submit a new ribbon to NHQ what would you submit?

Thank you

I have two better questions for you.

1. Given that we already have plenty of ribbons which are easily earned, why would we want to add more?

2. Since you started this little thread, what ribbon would you add?

Quote from: GroundHawg on November 20, 2014, 12:03:14 AM
I actually would suggest getting rid of a few ribbons instead of adding them. At least they allow cadets to short stack now which is a start I guess.

Consolidate the five ribbons acquired during professional development into one award with a numerical device. 

Make the Red Service Ribbon something that requires no administrative action.  Today's days minus eServices join date = authorized years to figure out basic plus devices.  I'd even add a field for "constructive join date" for folks with prior CAP service.  It could be used for this and for the rare person who actually wants to avail themselves of the incredible benefits of our retirement plan.

If certain aeronautical ratings are approved in eServices (itself a lengthy process), that should automatically allow for wear of the appropriate wings without having to do additional paperwork.  Unit commanders should be able to sign off for other cases (former CAP pilot who rejoins and wants to wear wings even though no longer rated).  If you don't trust them to authorize something that simple, they shouldn't be in command.

Since I'm well off the original post's reservation, how about empowering unit commanders to be the promotion approval authority when we get prior military officers in the door (not to exceed a CAP grade of Lt Col)?  It's ridiculous when some 20+ year retired service academy grad comes in and the process has to wend its way through multiple commanders before he/she can wear a rank equivalent to that worn in defense of our country.  It adds no value.  If a unit commander can directly appoint a prior-service E-9 to CAP CMSgt without all of those pit stops, certainly we can accord an active/reserve/retired/former field grade officer the same expeditious treatment.

And in keeping with the original post, we should establish the Belt Buckle Call-Out Medal.  It would be just below the bronze medal of valor in precedence.  It would be awarded to those who rightfully "call out" a senior member who chooses to wear the blue Air Force-style service uniform even though the senior member's gut prevents onlookers from seeing whether he/she is wearing a belt buckle.

The basic medal would be awarded for a rightful call-out.  Spontaneous utterances of "snap" from onlookers and pained looks from the callee could be mentioned in the accompanying citation.  Bronze and silver stars would denote multiple awards.  A gold "2B" device would be issued to those who sacrificed their CAP career in the course of an otherwise rightful call-out.

Since you asked ...

A Patron Membership ribbon, aka the Shuman Award.

Quote from: DoubleSecret on November 20, 2014, 01:28:41 AM

Quote from: GroundHawg on November 20, 2014, 12:03:14 AM
I actually would suggest getting rid of a few ribbons instead of adding them. At least they allow cadets to short stack now which is a start I guess.

Consolidate the five ribbons acquired during professional development into one award with a numerical device. 

Make the Red Service Ribbon something that requires no administrative action.  Today's days minus eServices join date = authorized years to figure out basic plus devices.  I'd even add a field for "constructive join date" for folks with prior CAP service.  It could be used for this and for the rare person who actually wants to avail themselves of the incredible benefits of our retirement plan.

If certain aeronautical ratings are approved in eServices (itself a lengthy process), that should automatically allow for wear of the appropriate wings without having to do additional paperwork.  Unit commanders should be able to sign off for other cases (former CAP pilot who rejoins and wants to wear wings even though no longer rated).  If you don't trust them to authorize something that simple, they shouldn't be in command.

Since I'm well off the original post's reservation, how about empowering unit commanders to be the promotion approval authority when we get prior military officers in the door (not to exceed a CAP grade of Lt Col)?  It's ridiculous when some 20+ year retired service academy grad comes in and the process has to wend its way through multiple commanders before he/she can wear a rank equivalent to that worn in defense of our country.  It adds no value.  If a unit commander can directly appoint a prior-service E-9 to CAP CMSgt without all of those pit stops, certainly we can accord an active/reserve/retired/former field grade officer the same expeditious treatment.

https://www.capnhq.gov/news/Report_of_Recent_Membership_Action_Review_Board_Cases_MAR_10.pdf (https://www.capnhq.gov/news/Report_of_Recent_Membership_Action_Review_Board_Cases_MAR_10.pdf)

Review paragraph f. That indiviual was fraudently a CAP member and Lt Col. Just when we believe eveyone is honest, Murphy sucker punches you.  8)

Quote from: usafcap1 on November 19, 2014, 08:57:46 PM
If you could submit a new ribbon to NHQ what would you submit?

Thank you

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19356.0 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19356.0)

From a similar thread.

Quote from: Private Investigator on November 20, 2014, 12:59:07 PM

https://www.capnhq.gov/news/Report_of_Recent_Membership_Action_Review_Board_Cases_MAR_10.pdf (https://www.capnhq.gov/news/Report_of_Recent_Membership_Action_Review_Board_Cases_MAR_10.pdf)

Review paragraph f. That indiviual was fraudently a CAP member and Lt Col. Just when we believe eveyone is honest, Murphy sucker punches you.  8)

I don't believe everyone is honest.  Due diligence is called for, certainly.  There doesn't seem to be any administrative step where real assessment of bona fides occurs (i.e., getting the prospective promotee to sign a Privacy Act release and independently writing the appropriate agency to verify documentation).  Whether it's squadron-to-national or squadron-to-group (if any)-to-wing-to-region-to-national is irrelevant.  The present process seems more about making higher echelons feel important than about protecting the integrity of the process.

^ In this case, I don't see the actual issue in the text, so I am assuming there was a stolen valor or similar issue
at play.

Unless CAP pulls a FOIA request on every military equivalence promotion, there's not much it can do but request
substantiation and accept members' word, insuring that spidey sense is on full power. 

The member doesn't have to sign or authorize anything as military records are public documents (at least in regards to
service dates, decs, etc.).  Anyone can request anyone else's 214 and related record from the NPRC, and certainly
CAP should be able to short-shrift those requests via direct contacts with the USAF.

Perhaps that should be part of the process, and CAP should slow its roll on advanced promotions. I've always said
that every new member should stay a SMWOG for the first 6 months at a minimum, if not a year.  There's no
mission critical need to blast people to bars and oaks the second their check clears.

Frankly, a requirement to document all military grade, badges, and decs a CAP member intends to use or wear should be
a requirement day 1.  I can't tell you the number of times I've discussed that "so and so is wearing such and such and
no one thinks its correct..." my response is always "you're the CC, make him substantiate or take it off", but you know
how that goes.

Concur with consolidating the PD ribbons into one with the appropriate devices to reflect achievement.

Otherwise can we stop dreaming up more ribbons. They don't really mean anything -- unless you get something that translates to a real medal or decoration.

PTSD ribbon - for special assignments to special units for short term leading to long term anxiety.

Recruiter Ribbon - Combine the cadet recruiter ribbon and senior recruiter ribbon into one ribbon, and have the same number of recruits required to earn the "recruiter ribbon".  Cadets that earn it continue to wear it if they transition to senior member.

Cadet Special Activities Ribbon -  Change the name to Special Activities Ribbon or maybe National Special Activities Ribbon.

Leadership Ribbon - Change it to the Level II Benjamin O'Davis Leadership Award Ribbon instead of getting it for earning a specialty track rating (which doesn't really seem to be 'leadership').  After all, you get a badge already when you finish a tech rating, but you don't get any 'bling' for completing level II.  You could still add the stars to the ribbon for senior and master ratings.

Ribbon for Squadron of Merit/Distinction - It could be the same ribbon: basic ribbon for Squadron of Merit, bronze star for Region Squadron of Distinction, and silver star for Natl Squadron of Distinction.  Often, units get one of these awards and receive a banner and a certificate, but the members don't get any wearable recognition like when the unit earns a Unit Citation.

Quote from: pierson777 on November 21, 2014, 04:53:56 AM
Recruiter Ribbon - Combine the cadet recruiter ribbon and senior recruiter ribbon into one ribbon, and have the same number of recruits required to earn the "recruiter ribbon".  Cadets that earn it continue to wear it if they transition to senior member.

Cadet Special Activities Ribbon -  Change the name to Special Activities Ribbon or maybe National Special Activities Ribbon.

Leadership Ribbon - Change it to the Level II Benjamin O'Davis Leadership Award Ribbon instead of getting it for earning a specialty track rating (which doesn't really seem to be 'leadership').  After all, you get a badge already when you finish a tech rating, but you don't get any 'bling' for completing level II.  You could still add the stars to the ribbon for senior and master ratings.

Ribbon for Squadron of Merit/Distinction - It could be the same ribbon: basic ribbon for Squadron of Merit, bronze star for Region Squadron of Distinction, and silver star for Natl Squadron of Distinction.  Often, units get one of these awards and receive a banner and a certificate, but the members don't get any wearable recognition like when the unit earns a Unit Citation.

All great ideas.  I do believe that there should be a single PD ribbon with devices for each level.  That is how it is done in the Air Force.  It would help clean up the rack.

I don't like getting ribbons for something that I get a badge for too either.  It really doesn't make sense. 

Quote from: Eclipse on November 20, 2014, 04:08:49 PM
^ In this case, I don't see the actual issue in the text, so I am assuming there was a stolen valor or similar issue
at play.

Unless CAP pulls a FOIA request on every military equivalence promotion, there's not much it can do but request
substantiation and accept members' word, insuring that spidey sense is on full power. 
...

Should CAP do that, along the same lines as an academic institution requesting a copy of a transcript directly from another academic institution?  That's standard practice for a university.  It seems increasingly easy, with current software technology, to fudge a DD214 or certificates.  I bet I could forge a really good DD214 using information available freely online, if I were into stealing valor.

Quote from: pierson777 on November 21, 2014, 04:53:56 AM
Recruiter Ribbon - Combine the cadet recruiter ribbon and senior recruiter ribbon into one ribbon, and have the same number of recruits required to earn the "recruiter ribbon".  Cadets that earn it continue to wear it if they transition to senior member.

Cadet Special Activities Ribbon -  Change the name to Special Activities Ribbon or maybe National Special Activities Ribbon.

Leadership Ribbon - Change it to the Level II Benjamin O'Davis Leadership Award Ribbon instead of getting it for earning a specialty track rating (which doesn't really seem to be 'leadership').  After all, you get a badge already when you finish a tech rating, but you don't get any 'bling' for completing level II.  You could still add the stars to the ribbon for senior and master ratings.

Ribbon for Squadron of Merit/Distinction - It could be the same ribbon: basic ribbon for Squadron of Merit, bronze star for Region Squadron of Distinction, and silver star for Natl Squadron of Distinction.  Often, units get one of these awards and receive a banner and a certificate, but the members don't get any wearable recognition like when the unit earns a Unit Citation.

I generally like those concepts.  I really would like to see something sorted out with the leadership and Crossfield ribbons.

Quote from: JC004 on November 21, 2014, 06:32:25 AM
I generally like those concepts.  I really would like to see something sorted out with the leadership and Crossfield ribbons.

I think the Crossfield ribbon needs to be phased out.  You already earn the "master" badge and the silver star on the ribbon.  There is no reason to earn any extra ribbon when you are already authorized to wear two other items that designate the same thing on the same uniform.  By the way, I have the Crossfield ribbon as well. 

In addition, I would remove the Yeager ribbon or at least add some additional requirements to it.

I would combine the recruiter ribbons

Special Activities Ribbon vs Cadet Special Activities Ribbon, eh just a name change.  No real value to it.

I would also suggest combining the Senior Member PD levels into one ribbon with attachments.

I would remove the CAC ribbon from the Senior Member wear list again.  I wear my NCAC ribbon but do not really understand why that was added in the first place. 

I could go either way with combining the NCC and NCGC ribbon.

I would eliminate the command ribbon now that former commanders can wear the Command Insignia Pin permanently.

 

Not too long ago the Leadership Ribbon and associated stars for rating levels was all there was for a good chunk of Specialty Tracks... until they added the ugly Clip Art badges.

QuoteConsolidate the five ribbons acquired during professional development into one award with a numerical device. 

An excellent idea and would conform with the Army and Air Force NCOPD Ribbons concepts.

Quote from: Bobble on November 20, 2014, 01:56:49 AM
Since you asked ...

A Patron Membership ribbon, aka the Shuman Award.

;D  :clap:

While I see your humor and enjoy it, it's actually not a bad idea.

I don't know how many Patrons add, drop-off and/or rejoin each year but giving them a small token (like a ribbon/medal and a certificate) might (coulda, woulda, shoulda) stimulate renewal and maybe even stimulate some new patronage.

If that adds too much for processing costs, raise the patronage dues to say $35-40 USC to cover it.

Quote from: GroundHawg on November 20, 2014, 12:03:14 AM
I actually would suggest getting rid of a few ribbons instead of adding them. At least they allow cadets to short stack now which is a start I guess.

I wish seniors had that option as well.  Dual military/CAP adds up.  If one's ribbon rack rivals that of a USAF 4-star, to me it looks "off."  Yes, even if earned and properly worn, there comes a point where we just look overdecorated.  Then there's mess dress:  I've seen folks whose miniature medal rack cost more  than the rest of their mess dress. 

But hey, I'll just do me :)

You don't have to wear military uniforms on a CAP uniform...If it's too much, why not wear CAP ribbons on a CAP uniform?

11.1.1.1. Ribbons and devices are mandatory with the USAF-style Service Dress (Class A)
and USAF-style Semiformal uniforms, and optional with the USAF-style Blue Service Uniform (Class B)
and Corporate-style Aviator Shirt Uniforms. When ribbons and devices are worn, all authorized ribbons
will be worn on USAF-style uniforms, except:
11.1.1.1.1. Officers and NCOs. On the USAF-style uniforms, all ribbons, badges,
and devices worn by adult members must fall below the top notch of the collar on the service coat or the
bottom tip of the collar of shirts/blouses when those are worn without a service coat. Individuals may
choose which ribbons to eliminate to meet this requirement, but are encouraged to initially remove CAP
professional development ribbons to reach the required height. (Note, CAP aviation and chaplain badges
remain mandatory for wear on USAF-style uniforms and ribbons may need to be removed to meet this
requirement.)
11.1.1.1.2. Cadets. Cadets may choose to reduce the height of their ribbon bar by
removing all cadet achievement ribbons but their highest Cadet Program achievement ribbon. All other
earned CAP ribbons and devices must still be worn.

I know I have suggested this before, and there have been divergent opinions on what constitutes a "USAF civilian," but a lot of our awards could be consolidated into/replaced with DOD civilian awards.

Membership Ribbon - no need for it, as it's almost concurrent with getting handed (yes, I use the word "handed") your butterbars.

Civilian Air Medal - self-explanatory; we should be awarded this because we got the military version in WWII.  Could be awarded where life and limb are truly at risk.
(http://www.medalpedia.org/images/7/75/CivilianAirMedal.jpg)

Civilian Aerial Achievement Award
(http://www.medalpedia.org/images/b/b7/CivilianAerialAchievementMedal.jpg)

Civilian Award for Valour: replaces both levels of CAP Medal for Valour.
(http://www.medalpedia.org/images/0/03/Air_Force_Civilian_Award_for_Valor_Medal.jpg)

Air Force Exemplary Civilian Service Award Medal; replaces CAP Distinguished Service Medal
(http://www.medalpedia.org/images/6/6c/Air_Force_Exemplary_Civilian_Service_Award_Medal.jpg)

Air Force Meritorious Civilian Service Award Medal; replaces CAP Exceptional and Meritorious Service Award Medals
(http://www.medalpedia.org/images/a/a3/Air_Force_Meritorious_Civilian_Service_Award_Medal.jpg)

Air Force Civilian Achievement Award Medal; replaces both Commander's Commendation and Achievement Award
(http://www.medalpedia.org/images/2/2e/Air_Force_Civilian_Achievement_Award_Medal.jpg)

All right, I know this is never going to happen, and many are going to say "we're not Air Force civilians," et. al...but, then, what are we?  We are the Air Force's Auxiliary, and as has been pointed out, we are governed by several AFI's, especially where uniforms, personal conduct, etc. are concerned.  Others are going to say "we don't need those, we have our own awards," which is a circular argument since many are saying we need to not have as many medals!

I am saying consolidate/replace a few of our own with those that do have higher standards.

But, if there's one thing I've learnt over 20-odd years of CAP, it's that the status quo is nearly impossible to change.  So this is a flight of fancy.  Go ahead and fire your virtual AIM-120s.

Quote from: CyBorg on November 21, 2014, 08:18:19 PM
I know I have suggested this before, and there have been divergent opinions on what constitutes a "USAF civilian," but a lot of our awards could be consolidated into/replaced with DOD civilian awards.

Regardless of whether or not we would qualify, I do not think this would be a good idea.  The approval level for some of these awards are pretty high.  The valor is the Secretary of the USAF.  Our Valor is at least the CSAG and even that can be a challenge to get approved.  The Meritorious Award is MAJCOM Commander or above.  At least the way it stands now, a CAP Meritorious Service Medal only requires a RG/CC.  Can you imagine how long it would take for the approval of some of these?

All good points.

Quote from: LSThiker on November 21, 2014, 09:04:16 PM

Quote from: CyBorg on November 21, 2014, 08:18:19 PM
I know I have suggested this before, and there have been divergent opinions on what constitutes a "USAF civilian," but a lot of our awards could be consolidated into/replaced with DOD civilian awards.

Regardless of whether or not we would qualify, I do not think this would be a good idea.  The approval level for some of these awards are pretty high.  The valor is the Secretary of the USAF.  Our Valor is at least the CSAG and even that can be a challenge to get approved.  The Meritorious Award is MAJCOM Commander or above.  At least the way it stands now, a CAP Meritorious Service Medal only requires a RG/CC.  Can you imagine how long it would take for the approval of some of these?

A lot less time then you would think.  And a whole lot less of them disappearing into the a black hole somewhere.

Quote from: DoubleSecret on November 21, 2014, 05:23:14 PM

Quote from: GroundHawg on November 20, 2014, 12:03:14 AM
I actually would suggest getting rid of a few ribbons instead of adding them. At least they allow cadets to short stack now which is a start I guess.

I wish seniors had that option as well.  Dual military/CAP adds up.  If one's ribbon rack rivals that of a USAF 4-star, to me it looks "off."  Yes, even if earned and properly worn, there comes a point where we just look overdecorated.  Then there's mess dress:  I've seen folks whose miniature medal rack cost more  than the rest of their mess dress. 

But hey, I'll just do me :)

Exactly. When I add my CAP and military ribbon racks, I look ridiculous. Even when you deduct ribbon only awards, my mini medal rack would cost around $250, and that is before the rack and mounting costs. Im just not prepared to drop that kind of coin on something that I may wear annually or bi-annually.

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on November 20, 2014, 12:19:14 AM
I would actually favor a ribbon if someone can find a photo of a CAP member berating a member of the military for not saluting. Maroon with gold and silver stripes. Devices for multiple photos...

:-X

There's already a form to request this award:  CAPF 2B

Quote from: lordmonar on November 21, 2014, 09:35:43 PM
A lot less time then you would think.  And a whole lot less of them disappearing into the a black hole somewhere.

I would disagree as it would still need to go through the channels and through those black holes.  Just to get the Meritorious Service to the CAP-USAF/CC, it would need to go through Wing, Region, and National just for him to signoff.

Jeff,

I do not think you read the initial message correctly.

Why should you 2b someone that found a photo of another member berating an airman for not saluting him?

In other words, the one that should be 2b is the one in the photo, not the member finding the photo!

One could also put forth a request for those DOD civilian employees to be eligible to wear military unit citations, campaign ribbons, etc. earned in a civilian capacity. At present these are not authorized for wear with CAP ribbons. 

Quote from: shuman14 on November 21, 2014, 04:38:07 PM

Quote from: Bobble on November 20, 2014, 01:56:49 AM
Since you asked ...

A Patron Membership ribbon, aka the Shuman Award.

;D  :clap:

While I see your humor and enjoy it, it's actually not a bad idea.

I don't know how many Patrons add, drop-off and/or rejoin each year but giving them a small token (like a ribbon/medal and a certificate) might (coulda, woulda, shoulda) stimulate renewal and maybe even stimulate some new patronage.

If that adds too much for processing costs, raise the patronage dues to say $35-40 USC to cover it.

There might be other important issues to address:

1) Where would the ribbon be correctly placed on a uniform that can't be worn?
2) Would a formal award ceremony be held via conference call or Skype?
3) What about repeat awards?  Bronze and silver "$" devices denoting the number of annual patron membership checks cashed by National?
4) Would an CAP instruction pamphlet (CAPP) accompany each award providing guidance on proper dusting techniques as the awards fill up the fireplace mantel?

Ahhh, the possibilities ....

QuoteThere might be other important issues to address:

1) Where would the ribbon be correctly placed on a uniform that can't be worn?

Well that one is simple, it becomes the very last/lowest ranking CAP award, even behind CAP Cadet Awards. If the Patron ever becomes an Active Member it is worn there.  If the Patron is member of some other uniformed Organization, if that Organization authorizes the wear of CAP, he/she could wear it according to the said Organizations rules and regulations.

2) Would a formal award ceremony be held via conference call or Skype?

Umm... no.

3) What about repeat awards?  Bronze and silver "$" devices denoting the number of annual patron membership checks cashed by National?

Keep it simple and use the clasps and numerals like on the Red Service Ribbon.

4) Would an CAP instruction pamphlet (CAPP) accompany each award providing guidance on proper dusting techniques as the awards fill up the fireplace mantel?

Just an update to 39-3 to cover the new award should be enough.

Ahhh, the possibilities ....


Yes, possibilities.  ;D

A Patron Awards isnt an especially bad idea. SGAUS does something similar. Some State Guards allow it to be worn, some dont. It really is just an attaboy type of awards. Looks nice on the office wall....

I don't think it's a horrible idea.  There are a LOT of organizations that provide ribbons to civilian personnel that do not wear a uniform:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awards_and_decorations_of_the_United_States_government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awards_and_decorations_of_the_United_States_government)

Quote from: THRAWN on November 22, 2014, 03:48:12 PM
A Patron Awards isnt an especially bad idea. SGAUS does something similar. Some State Guards allow it to be worn, some dont. It really is just an attaboy type of awards. Looks nice on the office wall....

Exactly! Now if seeing that certificate and/or Medal on the wall prompts a conversation about CAP it might recruit a new Member or another Patron to offer support. A win/win for everyone.

Quote from: SAREXinNY on November 22, 2014, 04:00:13 PM
I don't think it's a horrible idea.  There are a LOT of organizations that provide ribbons to civilian personnel that do not wear a uniform:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awards_and_decorations_of_the_United_States_government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awards_and_decorations_of_the_United_States_government)

I was watching a show about the FBI and one of the retired agents was wearing a ribbon rack on his suit coat. It looked out of place because you really do not see Americans wearing ribbon racks. The other thing is since I do not recognize the ribbons I do not know if he is an admin type with perfect attendance or a gunfighter  8)

Quote from: Private Investigator on November 23, 2014, 04:35:07 PM

Quote from: SAREXinNY on November 22, 2014, 04:00:13 PM
I don't think it's a horrible idea.  There are a LOT of organizations that provide ribbons to civilian personnel that do not wear a uniform:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awards_and_decorations_of_the_United_States_government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awards_and_decorations_of_the_United_States_government)

I was watching a show about the FBI and one of the retired agents was wearing a ribbon rack on his suit coat. It looked out of place because you really do not see Americans wearing ribbon racks. The other thing is since I do not recognize the ribbons I do not know if he is an admin type with perfect attendance or a gunfighter  8)

Why would it matter?

Quote from: lordmonar on November 23, 2014, 04:40:22 PM

Quote from: Private Investigator on November 23, 2014, 04:35:07 PM

Quote from: SAREXinNY on November 22, 2014, 04:00:13 PM
I don't think it's a horrible idea.  There are a LOT of organizations that provide ribbons to civilian personnel that do not wear a uniform:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awards_and_decorations_of_the_United_States_government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awards_and_decorations_of_the_United_States_government)

I was watching a show about the FBI and one of the retired agents was wearing a ribbon rack on his suit coat. It looked out of place because you really do not see Americans wearing ribbon racks. The other thing is since I do not recognize the ribbons I do not know if he is an admin type with perfect attendance or a gunfighter  8)

Why would it matter?

The notion that one's ribbon rack is one's resume, and if the wearer is putting it out there he thinks it matters.  Reasonable minds may differ on this.

Yes...why would it matter to YOU what someone else's ribbon rack looked like?   He is FBI...his ribbons are FBI and he is talking to other FBI agents.

It would matter tho other FBI agents...but not to you.

That's the whole problem with comparing CAP cadets with anyone else but CAP cadets...or CAP SM, or ARMY personnel, or USAF personnel.

Cadet Capt says to MOH winner "got more ribbons then you" is a funny joke.....but that is all that is was a joke....even on the Cadet Capt's part.

Now don't get me wrong...I think we got too many ribbons.  We can clean it up a bit with a little consolidation.   But I don't go comparing and contrasting US to anyone else but US.

Quote from: lordmonar on November 23, 2014, 07:12:36 PMThat's the whole problem with comparing CAP cadets with anyone else but CAP cadets...or CAP SM, or ARMY personnel, or USAF personnel.

Which is why only CAP ribbons should be allowed on CAP uniforms, and/or CAP ribbons should be required on
CAP uniforms >before< any military ribbons are worn.

Quote from: Eclipse on November 23, 2014, 08:14:35 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on November 23, 2014, 07:12:36 PMThat's the whole problem with comparing CAP cadets with anyone else but CAP cadets...or CAP SM, or ARMY personnel, or USAF personnel.

Which is why only CAP ribbons should be allowed on CAP uniforms, and/or CAP ribbons should be required on
CAP uniforms >before< any military ribbons are worn.

If this bothers you this much, then submit a suggested change to the 39-1 and the 39-3.

Quote from: PHall on November 24, 2014, 01:22:34 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on November 23, 2014, 08:14:35 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on November 23, 2014, 07:12:36 PMThat's the whole problem with comparing CAP cadets with anyone else but CAP cadets...or CAP SM, or ARMY personnel, or USAF personnel.

Which is why only CAP ribbons should be allowed on CAP uniforms, and/or CAP ribbons should be required on
CAP uniforms >before< any military ribbons are worn.

If this bothers you this much, then submit a suggested change to the 39-1 and the 39-3.

And then watch said suggestion spiral...

(http://screencrave.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/The-Black-Hole-1-12-09-kc.jpg)

I've seen suggestions that were adopted. You have to build a good package that shows why adopting your suggestion would be good for CAP.

I like the idea of taking a good look at the senior member training ribbons. The Leadership Award isn't really about leadership, because it sure doesn't affirm that the affixed member can lead! And there's no need to name it for someone — leave that goofiness to the cadet side of the house. Let's call it something like the Specialty Training Ribbon and continue with the stars for specialty track status. As for the Loening, Garber and Wilson awards, should they stay or should they go?

The Yeager Award ribbon, I thought, was a cakewalk. It's probably the easiest ribbon for a former cadet to get. Should it even be accorded a ribbon? Make it a clasp on the aforementioned specialty training ribbon.

As for the Membership Award, which is pretty much a gimme anyway, maybe it should be treated much like the rainbow-colored Army Service Ribbon — and call it just that, a service ribbon. Or just kill it altogether. (EDIT: Good way to tell if someone pays attention to detail: Look how many seniors wear the darned thing upside-down.)

Having a ribbon for squadrons of merit/distinction, I think, requires us to rethink the Unit Citation Award. Maybe we need to have two ribbons — a meritorious unit ribbon (merit/distinction) and the other, a unit citation. The meritorious unit ribbon would be subordinate to the unit citation.

The Red Service Ribbon could be renamed the Longevity Ribbon and attachments stay as-is. The name doesn't even make sense anymore, since we don't stack on white and blue service ribbons anymore.

The Command Service Ribbon and Community Service Ribbon are the same ribbon, for all intents and purposes. Why are they so similar? Now that former commanders can continue wearing the commander badge, why do we need the ribbon? And at that, come to think of it, why do we have a separate badge for group commanders?

Two recruiter ribbons don't make much sense, either. And frankly, I don't think we need separate ribbons for the color guard and drill competitions.

The NRA marksmanship award for cadets could easily be a ribbon, with precedent set by Ma Blue.

The other thing I'd like to see is the phase-out of the triangular clasps in favor of the oak clusters. It's tidier and more professional (and probably cheaper), especially with multiple awards. Vanguard's stock could be depleted with a staggered phase-in, or maybe a cadet requirement for the CAP clasps.

Don't get me started on the specialty track badges, which are both too numerous and absolutely hideous, especially the aerospace education badge, which looks like a stained-glass window, the cadet program badge and its fussy stars, and all those badges that look like they're made with clip art. We should simplify them along general areas (for instance, a support badge would include all the logistics functions, administration and personnel; a communications badge would include public affairs and IT; et al) and design nice silver badges to go above the ribbons. Oh, and not authorize them in 10 different places on the uniform, like the shield badges are now. So much for standardization and uniformity when people can puke shields all over their blues.

REALLY OUTRAGEOUS IDEA: Why do we have separate SAR and DR ribbons? Why can't we combine them into one operations ribbon, continuing the use of the "V" for presidentially declared disasters and the prop for air deployment?

I was the one who suggested that the CAP adopt the USAF rules for the commander's badge...took a few years....but 99% of my original white paper was adopted.

The only part that was not adopted was the elimination of the commanders ribbon.

So....it is not always a black hole.

On the subject of "only CAP ribbons on CAP uniforms"  Remember that war the USAF aux and we should include USAF blingage on our uniforms.

I would go even one further.....and incorporate our uniforms and awards into the USAF system and allow current USAF member to wear CAP ribbons.   Of course before I would go there.....it would mean really really really cleaning up a lot of CAP's blingage.

Quote from: capmando on November 20, 2014, 02:02:16 PM

Quote from: usafcap1 on November 19, 2014, 08:57:46 PM
If you could submit a new ribbon to NHQ what would you submit?

Thank you

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19356.0 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19356.0)

From a similar thread.

SNARK ALERT: I suggest you take a look at the image of the medal on this page and tell me if this would cause confusion.

http://www.showbiz411.com/2013/11/07/tom-cruise-testifies-katie-holmes-left-him-to-protect-suri-from-scientology (http://www.showbiz411.com/2013/11/07/tom-cruise-testifies-katie-holmes-left-him-to-protect-suri-from-scientology)

+1 on Buckeye's suggestion.

I would roll all the cadet program ribbons into ONE....Cadet Program Ribbon.  Wear OLCs to signify how far in the cadet program you get.
I would keep the membership ribbon but lose all the other SM PD ribbons.

Commander's ribbon...gone...they got a badge.
Crossfeild ribbon....gone...they get a badge.
Yeager ribbon.....keep it....it we make the Senior Aerospace Education Program a much tougher achievement to get.

Beyond that....we need a CAP Achievement, CAP Commendation, CAP Meritorious Service, CAP Legion of Merit and a CAP Distinguished Service Awards.  That would cover service and actions at roughly the squadron, group, wing, region, and national levels.

SAR/CD/DR/HLS ribbons get spit into a CAP Aerial Achievement, CAP Base Achievement, and CAP Ground Achievement awards.....don't care so much what sub mission you are doing.....just that you are doing missions.

CAC....gone
NCSA....gone
NCGC and NCC ribbons...gone......award them achievement/commendation medals if they deserve them.

Create the CAP medal for lifesaving in dangerous circumstances (aka the Airman's medal)
And finally create a CAP Cross for saving the world and getting the girl/boy at the end of the movie for those really really really rare occasions that we need something of that caliber.

Roll all of these up into an Air Force AFI and put them to good use.

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on November 24, 2014, 03:27:17 AM
SNARK ALERT: I suggest you take a look at the image of the medal on this page and tell me if this would cause confusion.

http://www.showbiz411.com/2013/11/07/tom-cruise-testifies-katie-holmes-left-him-to-protect-suri-from-scientology (http://www.showbiz411.com/2013/11/07/tom-cruise-testifies-katie-holmes-left-him-to-protect-suri-from-scientology)

You know what's amazing about that medal on Tom Cruise is that it's actually a regular size medal.  It just looks gigantic on his small stature ;)

Quote from: lordmonar on November 24, 2014, 03:38:19 AM
+1 on Buckeye's suggestion.

I would roll all the cadet program ribbons into ONE....Cadet Program Ribbon.  Wear OLCs to signify how far in the cadet program you get.
I would keep the membership ribbon but lose all the other SM PD ribbons.

Commander's ribbon...gone...they got a badge.
Crossfeild ribbon....gone...they get a badge.
Yeager ribbon.....keep it....it we make the Senior Aerospace Education Program a much tougher achievement to get.

Beyond that....we need a CAP Achievement, CAP Commendation, CAP Meritorious Service, CAP Legion of Merit and a CAP Distinguished Service Awards.  That would cover service and actions at roughly the squadron, group, wing, region, and national levels.

SAR/CD/DR/HLS ribbons get spit into a CAP Aerial Achievement, CAP Base Achievement, and CAP Ground Achievement awards.....don't care so much what sub mission you are doing.....just that you are doing missions.

CAC....gone
NCSA....gone
NCGC and NCC ribbons...gone......award them achievement/commendation medals if they deserve them.

Create the CAP medal for lifesaving in dangerous circumstances (aka the Airman's medal)
And finally create a CAP Cross for saving the world and getting the girl/boy at the end of the movie for those really really really rare occasions that we need something of that caliber.

Roll all of these up into an Air Force AFI and put them to good use.

I'd keep 5 CP ribbons - Curry, Wright Bros, Mitchell, Earhart, and Spaatz. Use devices to denote achievements between them.
3 Senior training ribbons - Membership, Officer Training, Wilson. Devices on Membership to denote levels. Officer Training for completing SOS, ASCS, and AWC - Ribbon for one, silver star for two, gold star for all three.
We already have the CAP Achievement etc. No need for Legion of Merit as we already have the Exceptional Service Medal.
We already have the Bronze and Silver Medals of Valor for last two listed.
I'd also have a Longevity and Recruiting ribbon. Use same scheme for Longevity as current Red Service Ribbon. Use same standard for seniors and cadets for recruiting ribbon - Ribbon for two, first device for three more (total of five), device for every five afterward.

The renaming of the exceptional service medal is to bring it into line with USAF terminology.

Why keep the wilson and leadership?   Same with the milestones of the cadet program.   

Redundant redundant.    Cadets get rank so they don't really need a ribbon for each step....even for the Spaatz.

I would keep the longevity (read service) ribbon...rename it and change the award criteria to one for every four years.
Same deal for the recruiting ribbon....just one....just one set of requirements.

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on November 24, 2014, 03:27:17 AM

Quote from: capmando on November 20, 2014, 02:02:16 PM

Quote from: usafcap1 on November 19, 2014, 08:57:46 PM
If you could submit a new ribbon to NHQ what would you submit?

Thank you

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19356.0 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19356.0)

From a similar thread.

SNARK ALERT: I suggest you take a look at the image of the medal on this page and tell me if this would cause confusion.

http://www.showbiz411.com/2013/11/07/tom-cruise-testifies-katie-holmes-left-him-to-protect-suri-from-scientology (http://www.showbiz411.com/2013/11/07/tom-cruise-testifies-katie-holmes-left-him-to-protect-suri-from-scientology)

Mine looks better....... :clap: :clap: :clap: But I do see the color resemblance.

Quote from: lordmonar on November 23, 2014, 04:40:22 PM

Quote from: Private Investigator on November 23, 2014, 04:35:07 PM

Quote from: SAREXinNY on November 22, 2014, 04:00:13 PM
I don't think it's a horrible idea.  There are a LOT of organizations that provide ribbons to civilian personnel that do not wear a uniform:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awards_and_decorations_of_the_United_States_government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awards_and_decorations_of_the_United_States_government)

I was watching a show about the FBI and one of the retired agents was wearing a ribbon rack on his suit coat. It looked out of place because you really do not see Americans wearing ribbon racks. The other thing is since I do not recognize the ribbons I do not know if he is an admin type with perfect attendance or a gunfighter  8)

Why would it matter?

In law enforcement you have sheepdogs which is about 20% of a department, the other 80% is just civil servants. Admin types tend not to pull children out of swimming pools, a woman out of a burning car or get shot at oh dark thirty on routine patrol, saavy? JMHO  8)

Quote from: pierson777 on November 24, 2014, 05:04:20 PM

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on November 24, 2014, 03:27:17 AM
SNARK ALERT: I suggest you take a look at the image of the medal on this page and tell me if this would cause confusion.

http://www.showbiz411.com/2013/11/07/tom-cruise-testifies-katie-holmes-left-him-to-protect-suri-from-scientology (http://www.showbiz411.com/2013/11/07/tom-cruise-testifies-katie-holmes-left-him-to-protect-suri-from-scientology)

You know what's amazing about that medal on Tom Cruise is that it's actually a regular size medal.  It just looks gigantic on his small stature ;)

I bet it is for perfect attendance.  8)

Quote from: Private Investigator on November 25, 2014, 05:56:58 AM

Quote from: pierson777 on November 24, 2014, 05:04:20 PM

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on November 24, 2014, 03:27:17 AM
SNARK ALERT: I suggest you take a look at the image of the medal on this page and tell me if this would cause confusion.

http://www.showbiz411.com/2013/11/07/tom-cruise-testifies-katie-holmes-left-him-to-protect-suri-from-scientology (http://www.showbiz411.com/2013/11/07/tom-cruise-testifies-katie-holmes-left-him-to-protect-suri-from-scientology)

You know what's amazing about that medal on Tom Cruise is that it's actually a regular size medal.  It just looks gigantic on his small stature ;)

I bet it is for perfect attendance.  8)

There's a special oak leaf cluster device for his encyclopedic knowledge of the history of psychiatry, which was presented after the couch-jumping appearance.

Quote from: lordmonar on November 24, 2014, 03:38:19 AM
+1 on Buckeye's suggestion.

I would roll all the cadet program ribbons into ONE....Cadet Program Ribbon.  Wear OLCs to signify how far in the cadet program you get.
I would keep the membership ribbon but lose all the other SM PD ribbons.

Commander's ribbon...gone...they got a badge.
Crossfeild ribbon....gone...they get a badge.
Yeager ribbon.....keep it....it we make the Senior Aerospace Education Program a much tougher achievement to get.

Beyond that....we need a CAP Achievement, CAP Commendation, CAP Meritorious Service, CAP Legion of Merit and a CAP Distinguished Service Awards.  That would cover service and actions at roughly the squadron, group, wing, region, and national levels.

SAR/CD/DR/HLS ribbons get spit into a CAP Aerial Achievement, CAP Base Achievement, and CAP Ground Achievement awards.....don't care so much what sub mission you are doing.....just that you are doing missions.

CAC....gone
NCSA....gone
NCGC and NCC ribbons...gone......award them achievement/commendation medals if they deserve them.

Create the CAP medal for lifesaving in dangerous circumstances (aka the Airman's medal)
And finally create a CAP Cross for saving the world and getting the girl/boy at the end of the movie for those really really really rare occasions that we need something of that caliber.

Roll all of these up into an Air Force AFI and put them to good use.

Why not just restore thee old cadet ribbons: Red White and Blue Training Ribbons with the appropriate attachments. Have one senior member professional development award with devices to reflect achievement.

As far as a CAP Legion of Merit, can we keep things simple. Right now, the system gets very convoluted when you consider that there are awards with devices and even a special unit award at the national commander level. Why not just eliminate that stuff and keep things simple. After all, what difference does another ribbon or some special device in this case really make other than to clutter up a uniform and make money for Big V. We have too many ribbons now.

Another thing that should be in put in place is an automatic Distinguished Service Medal if you retire. Right now the award process for that medal is strictly political when it might be the only real CAP decoration that a member might receive during his or her career.

Quote from: Private Investigator on November 25, 2014, 05:56:58 AM

Quote from: pierson777 on November 24, 2014, 05:04:20 PM

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on November 24, 2014, 03:27:17 AM
SNARK ALERT: I suggest you take a look at the image of the medal on this page and tell me if this would cause confusion.

http://www.showbiz411.com/2013/11/07/tom-cruise-testifies-katie-holmes-left-him-to-protect-suri-from-scientology (http://www.showbiz411.com/2013/11/07/tom-cruise-testifies-katie-holmes-left-him-to-protect-suri-from-scientology)

You know what's amazing about that medal on Tom Cruise is that it's actually a regular size medal.  It just looks gigantic on his small stature ;)

I bet it is for perfect attendance.  8)

The plaque for the alternates is down in the ladies room.

Quote from: lordmonar on November 24, 2014, 06:39:27 PM
The renaming of the exceptional service medal is to bring it into line with USAF terminology.

Why keep the wilson and leadership?   Same with the milestones of the cadet program.   

Redundant redundant.    Cadets get rank so they don't really need a ribbon for each step....even for the Spaatz.

I would keep the longevity (read service) ribbon...rename it and change the award criteria to one for every four years.
Same deal for the recruiting ribbon....just one....just one set of requirements.

Yeah but its a youth program.  JROTC, CAP, Boy Scouts, all get loads of ribbons.  Kids are motivated by bling.  But I could see the SM side trimming a few off. 

Quote from: flyboy1 on November 25, 2014, 10:34:27 AMAnother thing that should be in put in place is an automatic Distinguished Service Medal if you retire. Right now the award process for that medal is strictly political when it might be the only real CAP decoration that a member might receive during his or her career.

Would this ribbon have a dollar sign on it?
There are plenty of people who wrote checks for 25 years but didn't have anything near distinguished service.

Problem with cutting down the cadet rank ribbons is that after a long "career" the average may end up with only 5-6 ribbons.

Recruiter, CAC, Encampment, NCSA, Red Service, Community Service, Mitchell, Earhart Spaatz and maybe a Commanders Commendation or Achievement.  Maybe toss in a Find for those cadets in squadrons who actually call cadets.

Spending age 13-18 as a cadet and punching out with maybe 9-10 max ribbons if you made it all the way to Spaatz?  Thats no fun.

Quote from: Flying Pig on November 25, 2014, 04:18:25 PM
Problem with cutting down the cadet rank ribbons is that after a long "career" the average may end up with only 5-6 ribbons.

Recruiter, CAC, Encampment, NCSA, Red Service, Community Service, Mitchell, Earhart Spaatz and maybe a Commanders Commendation or Achievement.  Maybe toss in a Find for those cadets in squadrons who actually call cadets.

Spending age 13-18 as a cadet and punching out with maybe 9-10 max ribbons if you made it all the way to Spaatz?  Thats no fun.

Might not be fun, but it is also not bad. The ribbons might mean a bit more, and will show a huge commitment in terms of time and training.

Quote from: Eclipse on November 25, 2014, 04:12:43 PM

Quote from: flyboy1 on November 25, 2014, 10:34:27 AMAnother thing that should be in put in place is an automatic Distinguished Service Medal if you retire. Right now the award process for that medal is strictly political when it might be the only real CAP decoration that a member might receive during his or her career.

Would this ribbon have a dollar sign on it?
There are plenty of people who wrote checks for 25 years but didn't have anything near distinguished service.

On the other hand, there are plenty of eagles walking around with the medal that you could say the same thing about...

Quote from: THRAWN on November 25, 2014, 04:25:54 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on November 25, 2014, 04:12:43 PM

Quote from: flyboy1 on November 25, 2014, 10:34:27 AMAnother thing that should be in put in place is an automatic Distinguished Service Medal if you retire. Right now the award process for that medal is strictly political when it might be the only real CAP decoration that a member might receive during his or her career.

Would this ribbon have a dollar sign on it?
There are plenty of people who wrote checks for 25 years but didn't have anything near distinguished service.

On the other hand, there are plenty of eagles walking around with the medal that you could say the same thing about...

So many of our decorations have to do with being in the "right" place at the "right" time and knowing the "right" people.

That is one reason why I suggested AF Civilian Awards.

Yes, the process takes longer...but I think it would lessen buddies giving bling to buddies.

Quote from: CyBorg on November 25, 2014, 04:39:50 PM

Quote from: THRAWN on November 25, 2014, 04:25:54 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on November 25, 2014, 04:12:43 PM

Quote from: flyboy1 on November 25, 2014, 10:34:27 AMAnother thing that should be in put in place is an automatic Distinguished Service Medal if you retire. Right now the award process for that medal is strictly political when it might be the only real CAP decoration that a member might receive during his or her career.

Would this ribbon have a dollar sign on it?
There are plenty of people who wrote checks for 25 years but didn't have anything near distinguished service.

On the other hand, there are plenty of eagles walking around with the medal that you could say the same thing about...

So many of our decorations have to do with being in the "right" place at the "right" time and knowing the "right" people.

That is one reason why I suggested AF Civilian Awards.

Yes, the process takes longer...but I think it would lessen buddies giving bling to buddies.

Except that the process to initiate these awards (i.e. through chain of command) would stay the same, with the additional layers on the Air Force side to get these approved.

I'm not opposed to these awards. In fact, it seems from the AFI that the Air Force could (potentially) award some of these now. What we lack right now is an internal process to initiate these. I'm also not opposed to eliminating or consolidating some of our current awards. But I don't think replacing our CAP awards with AF civilian awards is the answer since these would have to go all the way to National and then through the Air Force chain of command to the appropriate approval authority. I don't see the improvement over our current process. If you're not getting an award now, I doubt you would get it then.

I would say for the most part, leave the cadet ribbons alone.  The exception is where those ribbons are both cadet and senior (SAR, DR, etc) and the recruiter ribbon.

Quote from: THRAWN on November 25, 2014, 04:24:59 PM

Quote from: Flying Pig on November 25, 2014, 04:18:25 PM
Problem with cutting down the cadet rank ribbons is that after a long "career" the average may end up with only 5-6 ribbons.

Recruiter, CAC, Encampment, NCSA, Red Service, Community Service, Mitchell, Earhart Spaatz and maybe a Commanders Commendation or Achievement.  Maybe toss in a Find for those cadets in squadrons who actually call cadets.

Spending age 13-18 as a cadet and punching out with maybe 9-10 max ribbons if you made it all the way to Spaatz?  Thats no fun.

Might not be fun, but it is also not bad. The ribbons might mean a bit more, and will show a huge commitment in terms of time and training.

Overall, I would say leave the cadet side alone.  Youth are motivate by things that adults arent. Or at least adults should be able to see past the bling a little more.  We had this debate back when I was a cadet.  In fact, many cadets at the time, at least where I was would not wear their rank ribbons after they became Cadet Officers. (Yeah, I know... that was made up and wasnt allowed in regs)  But we got to a point where we realized that isnt it just "assumed" that if Im a cadet Flight Officer, 2Lt, etc that I have all of the those other ribbons?  Yes.  I thought it was more impressive that I had a decent stack that didnt include any rank ribbons.  The Mitchell was the only one I wore.

However.............the young 13yr old C/SrAmn hasn't attained that level if enlightenment >:D 

I wore:  Recruiter, Encampment, CAC,  NCC, Red Service, Find, Mitchell, Unit Citation and Commanders Comm topped off with Glider Pilot wings.   Personally, I thought I was pretty Bad to the Bone  ;D

I am to big to wear the AF style uniform so that eliminates the main part of the argument for me. Once you hit more than 4 rows of ribbons on the Grey/White Combo, it looks like a little overkill with all of the Specialty Badges and Aviation stuff. I have worn mine a couple of times when my son was getting promoted.

I wear them proudly either way  ;D

Quote from: CyBorg on November 25, 2014, 04:39:50 PM

Quote from: THRAWN on November 25, 2014, 04:25:54 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on November 25, 2014, 04:12:43 PM

Quote from: flyboy1 on November 25, 2014, 10:34:27 AMAnother thing that should be in put in place is an automatic Distinguished Service Medal if you retire. Right now the award process for that medal is strictly political when it might be the only real CAP decoration that a member might receive during his or her career.

Would this ribbon have a dollar sign on it?
There are plenty of people who wrote checks for 25 years but didn't have anything near distinguished service.

On the other hand, there are plenty of eagles walking around with the medal that you could say the same thing about...

So many of our decorations have to do with being in the "right" place at the "right" time and knowing the "right" people.

That is one reason why I suggested AF Civilian Awards.

Yes, the process takes longer...but I think it would lessen buddies giving bling to buddies.

After 22 years in 2 branches of service I can tell you that same holds true for the vast majority of armed forces decorations. I don't think this change would address the issue at all.

The Air Force has their fair share of medals that should be eliminated.  The Air Force Good Conduct Medal is a good example.  This is a medal given to enlisted troops every three years for not getting in "too much" trouble.  It was actually stopped a few years ago but recently made a comeback.  I have a large amount of ribbons from my Air Force career but most are not much more than "participation ribbons."  Those can be greatly reduced for sure and the ones that are actually earned will take on a more prominent role.

Quote from: DoubleSecret on November 25, 2014, 03:44:39 PM

Quote from: Private Investigator on November 25, 2014, 05:56:58 AM

Quote from: pierson777 on November 24, 2014, 05:04:20 PM

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on November 24, 2014, 03:27:17 AM
SNARK ALERT: I suggest you take a look at the image of the medal on this page and tell me if this would cause confusion.

http://www.showbiz411.com/2013/11/07/tom-cruise-testifies-katie-holmes-left-him-to-protect-suri-from-scientology (http://www.showbiz411.com/2013/11/07/tom-cruise-testifies-katie-holmes-left-him-to-protect-suri-from-scientology)

You know what's amazing about that medal on Tom Cruise is that it's actually a regular size medal.  It just looks gigantic on his small stature ;)

I bet it is for perfect attendance.  8)

The plaque for the alternates is down in the ladies room.

In 1986 that was so funny. Now you get written up for "hazing" people with that comment.  8)

Quote from: kwe1009 on November 26, 2014, 12:56:18 AM
The Air Force has their fair share of medals that should be eliminated.  The Air Force Good Conduct Medal is a good example.  This is a medal given to enlisted troops every three years for not getting in "too much" trouble.  It was actually stopped a few years ago but recently made a comeback.  I have a large amount of ribbons from my Air Force career but most are not much more than "participation ribbons."  Those can be greatly reduced for sure and the ones that are actually earned will take on a more prominent role.

I think the Good Conduct Medal is a keeper. It has a 70+ year tradition. A lot of the awards lower than the National Defense Service Medal are the ones that should be eliminated. JMHO   8)

Quote from: kwe1009 on November 26, 2014, 12:56:18 AM
The Air Force has their fair share of medals that should be eliminated.  The Air Force Good Conduct Medal is a good example.  This is a medal given to enlisted troops every three years for not getting in "too much" trouble.  It was actually stopped a few years ago but recently made a comeback.  I have a large amount of ribbons from my Air Force career but most are not much more than "participation ribbons."  Those can be greatly reduced for sure and the ones that are actually earned will take on a more prominent role.

That's not really true. Besides CSAF eliminated the AFGCM. Then it was brought back by popular demand by the AF enlisted corps.

If you're going to eliminate it, the medal should be eliminated from all services -- but before you do, remember that the Good Conduct Medal had it's start with George Washington and what was then called the Honorary Badge of Military Distinction -- or something like that. It was started as a white cloth chevron and the ribbon design of the current Army Good Conduct Medal incorporates 13 white and scarlet stripes  in recognition of those original chevrons and, of course, the 13 original colonies. Cite your source, you say: a long out-of-print book, United States Military Medals and Ribbons written back in the 1960s by Philip K. Robles. It was meant as a decoration. In WW II and up until the early 1960s, the medal is/was presented with a lapel pin, published orders and at one point, even a citation certificate.

In 1980, when I got my first AF Good Conduct Medal, I was called to the squadron orderly room and presented the medal by my first sergeant and squadron commander. It came with a stern warning that the medal was the easiest one to loose and was shown a roster from the wing's Director of Personnel requesting certification of eligibility with a lot of names red-lined. Award required the squadron commander's approval. Years later, on my second tour of active duty, in a similar ceremony, this time involving two chief master sergeants, I was presented my final AF Good Conduct Medal but this time in a decoration set with orders, lapel pin, ribbons, the medal and the appropriate devices.

The  point here is this medal that people think is so easy to earn was far from that and there was a level of prestige given to it to make it meaningful. CAP awards and decorations don't mean the same to me because they're handed out sometimes like candy.

Our system has to really mean something and the more ribbons you add, the less they mean. I wish someone from NHQ really read this site and then took the hint that something should be studied. As I stated before, I would start by eliminating all of the PD ribbons -- leaving one -- and then I would explore the award of one or two federal medals: The Humanitarian Service Medal when CAP is involved with all those DoD operations that we all know about over the past decade and the Air Force Commendation Medal.  The original intent of the AFCM was to be awarded to ANY one serving in ANY capacity with the U.S. Air Force.

I am a former CAP-RAP NCO and base liaison. During one of those tours back in the 1980s, Ohio Wing CAP personnel were allowed to fire M-16s and earned the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon. The base kept the marksmanship records and gave each qualifying CAP member a ribbon and the wallet card to certify completion of the training program. Imagine if a cadet were allowed to do that now.

Quote from: flyboy1 on November 27, 2014, 03:32:40 PM
I am a former CAP-RAP NCO and base liaison. During one of those tours back in the 1980s, Ohio Wing CAP personnel were allowed to fire M-16s and earned the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon. The base kept the marksmanship records and gave each qualifying CAP member a ribbon and the wallet card to certify completion of the training program. Imagine if a cadet were allowed to do that now.

You and I both know that what the base did in awarding those SAEMR's to CAP members was not allowed by the regulation.
But it was a nice thing to do and it wasn't going to hurt anybody and I'm sure those records disappeared whenever a SAV, SUI or ORE inspection team was in town. ;)

BTW, I was the weapons qualification NCO for my squadron in the USAFR.

I may have missed it but did anyone mention a military service ribbon? CAP specific to denote you served.. This could be worn on the G/Ws since military ribbons aren't authorized on it? I remember it coming up on here a few years ago...

As the author of that particular award, it has been submitted twice and both times went into a black hole somewhere.

Quote from: JK657 on November 27, 2014, 09:40:52 PM
I may have missed it but did anyone mention a military service ribbon? CAP specific to denote you served.. This could be worn on the G/Ws since military ribbons aren't authorized on it? I remember it coming up on here a few years ago...

I don't think so.  I wouldn't be opposed to a ribbon for those who can't wear their military ribbons.  Perhaps do it as only authorized if you don't wear military ribbons (otherwise it's redundant). 

Quote from: arajca on November 27, 2014, 10:52:52 PM
As the author of that particular award, it has been submitted twice and both times went into a black hole somewhere.

it was a great idea. Very nice design as well. We made multiple attempts to get the uniform committee to pass.

any chance of trying it again?

Quote from: JC004 on November 28, 2014, 02:22:45 AM
any chance of trying it again?

I am no longer part of that group. I depleted my usefulness  ;D

Quote from: capmando on November 28, 2014, 02:25:08 AM

Quote from: JC004 on November 28, 2014, 02:22:45 AM
any chance of trying it again?

I am no longer part of that group. I depleted my usefulness  ;D

Well, somebody needs to try it again.

Jack

Quote from: capmando on November 28, 2014, 01:59:53 AM

Quote from: arajca on November 27, 2014, 10:52:52 PM
As the author of that particular award, it has been submitted twice and both times went into a black hole somewhere.

it was a great idea. Very nice design as well. We made multiple attempts to get the uniform committee to pass.

Wow... a CAP medal proposal that isn't round. 'Bout time....

Quote from: JC004 on November 28, 2014, 01:14:03 AM

Quote from: JK657 on November 27, 2014, 09:40:52 PM
I may have missed it but did anyone mention a military service ribbon? CAP specific to denote you served.. This could be worn on the G/Ws since military ribbons aren't authorized on it? I remember it coming up on here a few years ago...

I don't think so.  I wouldn't be opposed to a ribbon for those who can't wear their military ribbons.  Perhaps do it as only authorized if you don't wear military ribbons (otherwise it's redundant).

That waspart of the suggested policy - either the HMSA or military ribbons. Not both.

Quote from: ColonelJack on November 28, 2014, 03:01:30 AM

Quote from: capmando on November 28, 2014, 02:25:08 AM

Quote from: JC004 on November 28, 2014, 02:22:45 AM
any chance of trying it again?

I am no longer part of that group. I depleted my usefulness  ;D

Well, somebody needs to try it again.

Jack

Agreed.

Quote from: arajca on November 28, 2014, 05:32:56 AM

Quote from: JC004 on November 28, 2014, 01:14:03 AM

Quote from: JK657 on November 27, 2014, 09:40:52 PM
I may have missed it but did anyone mention a military service ribbon? CAP specific to denote you served.. This could be worn on the G/Ws since military ribbons aren't authorized on it? I remember it coming up on here a few years ago...

I don't think so.  I wouldn't be opposed to a ribbon for those who can't wear their military ribbons.  Perhaps do it as only authorized if you don't wear military ribbons (otherwise it's redundant).

That waspart of the suggested policy - either the HMSA or military ribbons. Not both.

Sounds perfect.

Quote from: MisterCD on November 22, 2014, 02:16:28 AM
One could also put forth a request for those DOD civilian employees to be eligible to wear military unit citations, campaign ribbons, etc. earned in a civilian capacity. At present these are not authorized for wear with CAP ribbons.

I'll second that.  I'd like to wear my MUA and AFOUA.

Quote from: capmando on November 28, 2014, 01:59:53 AM

Quote from: arajca on November 27, 2014, 10:52:52 PM
As the author of that particular award, it has been submitted twice and both times went into a black hole somewhere.

it was a great idea. Very nice design as well. We made multiple attempts to get the uniform committee to pass.

Well the design, the ruptured duck, was well thought out in my opinion.

But really I do not see a need for it.  8)

Quote from: Eclipse on November 23, 2014, 08:14:35 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on November 23, 2014, 07:12:36 PMThat's the whole problem with comparing CAP cadets with anyone else but CAP cadets...or CAP SM, or ARMY personnel, or USAF personnel.

Which is why only CAP ribbons should be allowed on CAP uniforms, and/or CAP ribbons should be required on
CAP uniforms >before< any military ribbons are worn.

The USCGAux does something like that... except that the Awards are intermingled.

For example an Auxiliary Commendation Medal goes before a Coast Guard Commendation Medal but after an Meritorious Service Medal in their awards precedence. 

Now if CAP's awards were more in line with the USAF's awards that could be an option.

Someone had asked me "What ideas do I have?" Well think maybe the Good Conduct ribbon.

(http://www.expeditionarycenter.af.mil/shared/media/ggallery/webgraphic/afg-050214-028.jpg)

Quote from: usafcap1 on December 05, 2014, 09:52:27 PM
Someone had asked me "What ideas do I have?" Well think maybe the Good Conduct ribbon.

(http://www.expeditionarycenter.af.mil/shared/media/ggallery/webgraphic/afg-050214-028.jpg)

Wow! The photo is bigger than I thought. Sorry about that.

Quote from: AirDX on November 28, 2014, 06:07:51 PM

Quote from: MisterCD on November 22, 2014, 02:16:28 AM
One could SHOULD also put forth a request for those DOD civilian employees to be eligible to wear military unit citations, campaign ribbons, etc. earned in a civilian capacity. At present these are not authorized for wear with CAP ribbons.

I'll second that.  I'd like to wear my MUA and AFOUA.

Until just now, it never dawned on me that civilians would/could earn unit awards. I knew they could earn the DOD and agency civilian awards, but never thought about when the unit they worked for earned a unit award. Learn something new everyday!

Quote from: usafcap1 on December 05, 2014, 09:52:27 PM
Someone had asked me "What ideas do I have?" Well think maybe the Good Conduct ribbon.

Do you mean that we should be awarded the AF GCM, or do you mean that CAP should develop its own?

Quote from: WikipediaIn October 2005, the 97th Air Force Uniform Board met and considered discontinuing the Good Conduct Medal with the rationale that good conduct of Airmen is the expected standard, not an exceptional occurrence worthy of recognition.

Even though the medal is still in use in the Air Force, I think the words above tell us why we really don't need this.

IF, and this is a really big IF, we were eligible for such an award, the GCM awarded to Air Force Reserve Components would be more apropos:

(http://cdn.militaryyearbookproject.com/images/stories/air_force_ribbons/Air_Reserve_Forces_Meritorious_Service_Medal.jpg)

AND, if we were, it would properly only be awarded to our NCO's, since it's not a medal officers receive.

That said, we're not, so it's an exercise in academia.

However...I distinctly remember one of our dual CAP/AFJROTC cadets in my first unit wearing a ribbon identical to the active-duty AF GCM.

I called him on it and he said it was an AFJROTC ribbon.

Quote from: GroundHawg on December 05, 2014, 10:33:12 PM

Quote from: AirDX on November 28, 2014, 06:07:51 PM

Quote from: MisterCD on November 22, 2014, 02:16:28 AM
One could SHOULD also put forth a request for those DOD civilian employees to be eligible to wear military unit citations, campaign ribbons, etc. earned in a civilian capacity. At present these are not authorized for wear with CAP ribbons.

I'll second that.  I'd like to wear my MUA and AFOUA.

When I was with USCENTCOM, all the civilians were given the JMUA credit and allowed to wear the lapel device.


Until just now, it never dawned on me that civilians would/could earn unit awards. I knew they could earn the DOD and agency civilian awards, but never thought about when the unit they worked for earned a unit award. Learn something new everyday!

Sir-What was the point of having your post of the same message three times?

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 06, 2014, 03:37:45 AM
Sir-What was the point of having your post of the same message three times?

It's called an error. Google it!

I see, you talk for him now? How do you know it was an error? He may have an ultimate reason, maybe to draw up attention.

Why don't you let him answer for himself?

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 06, 2014, 03:58:12 AM
I see, you talk for him now? How do you know it was an error? He may have an ultimate reason, maybe to draw up attention.

Why don't you let him answer for himself?

If you've been on this site for more a couple of days you've probably seen double posts and the occasional triple posts.
Seems to be a quirk in the system.

But since I'm the one to point this out to you you'll probably won't believe it.

It is what it is. ::)

Tried to correct an error by modifying my entry. Just didn't change.

Quote from: MSG Mac on December 06, 2014, 05:00:49 AM
Tried to correct an error by modifying my entry. Just didn't change.

That's the quirk in the system. ::)

Fixed.

This could really be called a consolidation suggestion for senior awards. IMHO the number of ribbons we have are excessive. Some are redundant, when you consider some of the metallic badges. So, here are my suggestions, in descending order.

Awards and Decorations:
Leave the SMV, BMV, DSA, ESA, MSA, CC, Achievement, Lifesaving Award, NCUC and UC alone. These represent out of the ordinary efforts and should be recognized.

Senior Training Ribbon
Wilson, Garber, Loening, Leadership, Membership - Create a single Senior training ribbon (Use the Garber Ribbon - it's the only one you can't get upside down), with attachments for level of completion '5' Wilson, etc.

Aerospace Education Ribbon (Current AEPSM/Yeager Ribbon)
AEPSM / Yeager, Crossfield - Consolidate to a single ribbon and implement a 5 step training process, similar to the Senior Training Levels, with numerical attachments

Find Ribbon - Leave it alone - this represents what we seek to accomplish in Emergency Services

Operations Ribbon (Current SAR Ribbon)
Consolidate the SAR, Disaster Relief, Counter Drug and Homeland Security Ribbons;  award a single ribbon, based on combined sorties.

Prior cadet service: Senior-most cadet ribbon.

Cadet Program Support Ribbon (Current IACE Ribbon)
Consolidate the IACE, NSAR, CAC, NCC/ NCGC, Encampment, Cadet Orientation Pilot and Community Services Ribbons. Cadets turning Senior would consolidate their ribbons with attachments.

Eliminate the Command Service Ribbon - duplicated by the UCB and National Badges

Red Service Ribbon - rename it the 'Longevity Ribbon' and retain with current criteria.

Retain the Wartime Service Ribbon, but call it the Military Service Ribbon. Use a gold star attachment to represent service during the time specified for the Congressional Gold Medal. Otherwise, it could be worn by members who have received an honorable discharge from an armed service.

Recruiting Ribbon - Retain, but increase the number of verifiable recruited members to 10.

So that takes the Senior Ribbons down from 34 possible ribbons to 18 (19, with prior cadet program achievements)

I know someone's ox will be gored, but I would appreciate your comments.

Quote from: LTCinSWR on January 18, 2015, 06:47:25 AM
This could really be called a consolidation suggestion for senior awards. IMHO the number of ribbons we have are excessive. Some are redundant, when you consider some of the metallic badges. So, here are my suggestions, in descending order.

Awards and Decorations:
Leave the SMV, BMV, DSA, ESA, MSA, CC, Achievement, Lifesaving Award, NCUC and UC alone. These represent out of the ordinary efforts and should be recognized.

Senior Training Ribbon
Wilson, Garber, Loening, Leadership, Membership - Create a single Senior training ribbon (Use the Garber Ribbon - it's the only one you can't get upside down), with attachments for level of completion '5' Wilson, etc.

Aerospace Education Ribbon (Current AEPSM/Yeager Ribbon)
AEPSM / Yeager, Crossfield - Consolidate to a single ribbon and implement a 5 step training process, similar to the Senior Training Levels, with numerical attachments

Find Ribbon - Leave it alone - this represents what we seek to accomplish in Emergency Services

Operations Ribbon (Current SAR Ribbon)
Consolidate the SAR, Disaster Relief, Counter Drug and Homeland Security Ribbons;  award a single ribbon, based on combined sorties.

Prior cadet service: Senior-most cadet ribbon.

Cadet Program Support Ribbon (Current IACE Ribbon)
Consolidate the IACE, NSAR, CAC, NCC/ NCGC, Encampment, Cadet Orientation Pilot and Community Services Ribbons. Cadets turning Senior would consolidate their ribbons with attachments.

Eliminate the Command Service Ribbon - duplicated by the UCB and National Badges

Red Service Ribbon - rename it the 'Longevity Ribbon' and retain with current criteria.

Retain the Wartime Service Ribbon, but call it the Military Service Ribbon. Use a gold star attachment to represent service during the time specified for the Congressional Gold Medal. Otherwise, it could be worn by members who have received an honorable discharge from an armed service.

Recruiting Ribbon - Retain, but increase the number of verifiable recruited members to 10.

So that takes the Senior Ribbons down from 34 possible ribbons to 18 (19, with prior cadet program achievements)

I know someone's ox will be gored, but I would appreciate your comments.

I like most of your suggestions but I would leave the operations ribbons alone as they are different missions, people who do CD don't necessarily do HS, having different ribbons allows for showing breadth of operational service.

Cadet Program Support Ribbon (Current IACE Ribbon)
Consolidate the IACE, NSAR, CAC, NCC/ NCGC, Encampment, Cadet Orientation Pilot and Community Services Ribbons. Cadets turning Senior would consolidate their ribbons with attachments.

I would move the Community Service Ribbon out from this as Community Service doesn't necessarily have anything to do the Cadet Programs (for instance mine were received for work with the Red Cross Disaster Services and the Community Watch program

My notes in red:

This could really be called a consolidation suggestion for senior awards. IMHO the number of ribbons we have are excessive. Some are redundant, when you consider some of the metallic badges. So, here are my suggestions, in descending order.

Awards and Decorations:
Leave the SMV, BMV, DSA, ESA, MSA, CC, Achievement, Lifesaving Award, NCUC and UC alone. These represent out of the ordinary efforts and should be recognized.

No complaints here.

Senior Training Ribbon
Wilson, Garber, Loening, Leadership, Membership - Create a single Senior training ribbon (Use the Garber Ribbon - it's the only one you can't get upside down), with attachments for level of completion '5' Wilson, etc.

Keep Wilson, combine rest.

Aerospace Education Ribbon (Current AEPSM/Yeager Ribbon)
AEPSM / Yeager, Crossfield - Consolidate to a single ribbon and implement a 5 step training process, similar to the Senior Training Levels, with numerical attachments

Kill the Crossfield – it's a triple dip (Master AE gets Crossfield, Master badge, AND silver star on Leadership). No other track has a special ribbon for Master level. I'd add a star for seniors completing all the requirements for the cadet model rocketry badge.

Find Ribbon - Leave it alone - this represents what we seek to accomplish in Emergency Services

No complaints

Operations Ribbon (Current SAR Ribbon)
Consolidate the SAR, Disaster Relief, Counter Drug and Homeland Security Ribbons;  award a single ribbon, based on combined sorties.

I could live with it.

Prior cadet service: Senior-most cadet achievement/milestone ribbon.

No complaints

Cadet Program Support Ribbon (Current IACE Ribbon)
Consolidate the IACE, NSAR, CAC, NCC/ NCGC, Encampment, Cadet Orientation Pilot and Community Services Ribbons. Cadets turning Senior would consolidate their ribbons with attachments.

Need to think about this one.

Eliminate the Command Service Ribbon - duplicated by the UCB and National Badges

Agreed.

Red Service Ribbon - rename it the 'Longevity Ribbon' and retain with current criteria.

Agreed

Retain the Wartime Service Ribbon, but call it the Military Service Ribbon. Use a gold star attachment to represent service during the time specified for the Congressional Gold Medal. Otherwise, it could be worn by members who have received an honorable discharge from an armed service.

OK, but move it up above the training ribbons.

Recruiting Ribbon - Retain, but increase the number of verifiable recruited members to 10.

Disagree. Consolidate Cadet Recruiting and Senior Recruiting ribbons. Change criteria to 2 for first award, 3 more for second, and 5 for each afterward.

So that takes the Senior Ribbons down from 34 possible ribbons to 18 (19, with prior cadet program achievements)

I know someone's ox will be gored, but I would appreciate your comments.

Quote from: Alaric on January 18, 2015, 02:19:32 PMI like most of your suggestions but I would leave the operations ribbons alone as they are different missions, people who do CD don't necessarily do HS, having different ribbons allows for showing breadth of operational service.

Cadet Program Support Ribbon (Current IACE Ribbon)
Consolidate the IACE, NSAR, CAC, NCC/ NCGC, Encampment, Cadet Orientation Pilot and Community Services Ribbons. Cadets turning Senior would consolidate their ribbons with attachments.

I would move the Community Service Ribbon out from this as Community Service doesn't necessarily have anything to do the Cadet Programs (for instance mine were received for work with the Red Cross Disaster Services and the Community Watch program

That increases the number back to 23. My logic was that the Operations, Cadet Support and AE ribbons would represent the service or training supporting each of CAP's three core missions. Some of the different tasks within operations (and the Community Service ribbon) reflect a form of 'mission creep'. Community Service could be recognized through 8 hours = 1 sortie (with 10 sorties / 80 hours) on the Operations Ribbon if ES focused and non-ES focused would be recognized on the Cadet Programs Support Ribbon.

Quote from: LTCinSWR on January 18, 2015, 02:42:14 PM

Quote from: Alaric on January 18, 2015, 02:19:32 PMI like most of your suggestions but I would leave the operations ribbons alone as they are different missions, people who do CD don't necessarily do HS, having different ribbons allows for showing breadth of operational service.

Cadet Program Support Ribbon (Current IACE Ribbon)
Consolidate the IACE, NSAR, CAC, NCC/ NCGC, Encampment, Cadet Orientation Pilot and Community Services Ribbons. Cadets turning Senior would consolidate their ribbons with attachments.

I would move the Community Service Ribbon out from this as Community Service doesn't necessarily have anything to do the Cadet Programs (for instance mine were received for work with the Red Cross Disaster Services and the Community Watch program

That increases the number back to 23. My logic was that the Operations, Cadet Support and AE ribbons would represent the service or training supporting each of CAP's three core missions. Some of the different tasks within operations (and the Community Service ribbon) reflect a form of 'mission creep'. Community Service could be recognized through 8 hours = 1 sortie (with 10 sorties / 80 hours) on the Operations Ribbon if ES focused and non-ES focused would be recognized on the Cadet Programs Support Ribbon.

I'm okay with that, it still cuts the number by a third

Quote from: arajca on January 18, 2015, 02:26:43 PM
My notes in red:

Reply in Green

Senior Training
Keep Wilson, combine rest.

Redesign the ribbon - maybe it's a pet peeve, but how many times have you seen the training ribbons upside down? I'm not saying eliminate the certificates (Loening, Garber and the numbered Wilson), but change the ribbon or use the existing Garber ribbon - that one is 'senior proof'.
Another thought - in addition to the numerical device, recognize PME (ACSC and AWC) with Bronze and Silver stars, respectively.

Aerospace Education Ribbon (Current AEPSM/Yeager Ribbon)
Kill the Crossfield – it's a triple dip (Master AE gets Crossfield, Master badge, AND silver star on Leadership). No other track has a special ribbon for Master level. I'd add a star for seniors completing all the requirements for the cadet model rocketry badge.


Agreed - good idea on the model rocketry badge.

Wartime Service Ribbon, but call it the Military Service Ribbon.

OK, but move it up above the training ribbons.

Concur!

Recruiting Ribbon -

Disagree. Consolidate Cadet Recruiting and Senior Recruiting ribbons. Change criteria to 2 for first award, 3 more for second, and 5 for each afterward.

Sorry, I didn't make that clear; the intent was for a single ribbon, but I do like the criteria change you suggest. I find it just as hard to recruit seniors as cadets.

Quote from: capmando on November 20, 2014, 02:02:16 PM

Quote from: usafcap1 on November 19, 2014, 08:57:46 PM
If you could submit a new ribbon to NHQ what would you submit?

Thank you

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19356.0 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19356.0)

From a similar thread.

Oh no....... a safety badge? :o

Okay. . . So some of the ideas that I have come up with, as well as several other member for new ribbons. Please don't beat me to death. THERE JUST IDEAS. (My ideas have *)

Ideas that have been entered. And may be considered.
Marksmanship*
Aerial Achievement*
Air Force Organizational Excellence
Region, Wing, Group citation*
Mission Readiness*
Good Conduct*
Outstanding Member of the Year
Arctic Service
Recognition*
Longevity*


Ideas that have been entered. BUT are still being "flush out"
GWOT
NDSM
Purple Heart
Exceptional Civilian Service
9-11 Service*
Air Force Meritorious Service Award
Air Force Valor
Air Force Outstanding Civilian Career Service
Air Force Command
Air Force Exemplary Civilian Service

USAFCAP1, can I get a bit of an explanation as to why (and in what form) some of these are on here?
Marksmanship?
Mission Readiness?
Good Conduct?
NDSM?
GWOT?
Not the AF/DoD ones, surely?

I am just curious as to reasoning, not here for a shouting match.

I do agree on the AF Civilian awards but it needs to be remembered, we aren't the AF Auxiliary all the time. We shouldn't be eligible for them unless in Aux status.

EDIT: AFI 36-1004 is the AFI on civilian awards. I feel it covers a good deal of what you discussed.

Quote from: TheTravelingAirman on January 18, 2015, 07:35:03 PM
USAFCAP1, can I get a bit of an explanation as to why (and in what form) some of these are on here?
Marksmanship?
Mission Readiness?
Good Conduct?
NDSM?
GWOT?
Not the AF/DoD ones, surely?

I believe he is referring to the AF/DoD ones.  And don't call me Shirley!   :P

Quote from: TheTravelingAirman on January 18, 2015, 07:35:03 PM
USAFCAP1, can I get a bit of an explanation as to why (and in what form) some of these are on here?
Marksmanship?
Mission Readiness?
Good Conduct?
NDSM?
GWOT?
Not the AF/DoD ones, surely?

I am just curious as to reasoning, not here for a shouting match.

I do agree on the AF Civilian awards but it needs to be remembered, we aren't the AF Auxiliary all the time. We shouldn't be eligible for them unless in Aux status.

EDIT: AFI 36-1004 is the AFI on civilian awards. I feel it covers a good deal of what you discussed.

Thank you I view AFI 36-1004 as soon as I can.

Marksmanship "BME Ribbon": Its purpose would be to "do away" with the NRA dangley medal deal, that cadets wear on their blues. But possibly open the doors to allow Senior's to partake in BME.

Mission Readiness: In this day and age we should always be ready Auxiliary or not. And plus this applies to all missions.

Good Conduct: The AF has the Good Conduct ribbon. It would make sense that their "Auxiliary" would have it to. I won't lie I have heard that the AF was going to do away with it, but I yet to see that.

GWOT and NDSM: These were ideas that have been submitted to me. BUT are still being "FLUSHED OUT".  Meaning that if I can't come to a good enough reason for us to have it, than I'm most likely not going to submit it for consideration. (Hence why they fall under the "Ideas that have been entered. BUT are still being "flush out" category  >:D )

Are there any other ribbons that I have post that require justification?


My apologies if my answers sound mean. I'm not trying to be.

Quote from: usafcap1 on January 18, 2015, 10:25:20 PM

Good Conduct: The AF has the Good Conduct ribbon. It would make sense that their "Auxiliary" would have it to. I won't lie I have heard that the AF was going to do away with it, but I yet to see that.

The Air Force did do away with the GCM for a number of years but brought it back recently. 

I don't really agree with having this medal as it is an award for not getting in TOO much trouble.  I don't think this medal motivates anyone to stay out of trouble.  I don't see the need for it in CAP either.  I don't believe you should get a medal for not screwing up.  You should get medals for doing something exceptional.

These ideas have merit.  I hope none of my replies (in blue) are taken as flames.

Quote from: LTCinSWR on January 18, 2015, 06:47:25 AM
Awards and Decorations:
Leave the SMV, BMV, DSA, ESA, MSA, CC, Achievement, Lifesaving Award, NCUC and UC alone. These represent out of the ordinary efforts and should be recognized.

I would delete the ESA, MSA and Achievement.  I would also seek to add the Civilian Air Medal for flight-specific award.

Quote from: LTCinSWR on January 18, 2015, 06:47:25 AM
Senior Training Ribbon
Wilson, Garber, Loening, Leadership, Membership - Create a single Senior training ribbon (Use the Garber Ribbon - it's the only one you can't get upside down), with attachments for level of completion '5' Wilson, etc.

A good idea but possibly confusing since one of the ribbons is already extant.  I would use a new-design ribbon with Membership - plain, Leadership - bronze star, Loening - silver star, Garber - silver propeller, Wilson - golden propeller.

Quote from: LTCinSWR on January 18, 2015, 06:47:25 AM
Aerospace Education Ribbon (Current AEPSM/Yeager Ribbon)
AEPSM / Yeager, Crossfield - Consolidate to a single ribbon and implement a 5 step training process, similar to the Senior Training Levels, with numerical attachments

Good.

Quote from: LTCinSWR on January 18, 2015, 06:47:25 AM
Find Ribbon - Leave it alone - this represents what we seek to accomplish in Emergency Services

Good, but modify.  Leave the "Find" ribbon for ground teams and implement the Civilian Air Medal for aircrew.

Quote from: LTCinSWR on January 18, 2015, 06:47:25 AM
Operations Ribbon (Current SAR Ribbon)
Consolidate the SAR, Disaster Relief, Counter Drug and Homeland Security Ribbons;  award a single ribbon, based on combined sorties.

Prior cadet service: Senior-most cadet ribbon.

Cadet Program Support Ribbon (Current IACE Ribbon)
Consolidate the IACE, NSAR, CAC, NCC/ NCGC, Encampment, Cadet Orientation Pilot and Community Services Ribbons. Cadets turning Senior would consolidate their ribbons with attachments.

Eliminate the Command Service Ribbon - duplicated by the UCB and National Badges

Red Service Ribbon - rename it the 'Longevity Ribbon' and retain with current criteria.

Retain the Wartime Service Ribbon, but call it the Military Service Ribbon. Use a gold star attachment to represent service during the time specified for the Congressional Gold Medal. Otherwise, it could be worn by members who have received an honorable discharge from an armed service.

All good.

Quote from: LTCinSWR on January 18, 2015, 06:47:25 AM
Recruiting Ribbon - Retain, but increase the number of verifiable recruited members to 10.

Good, but prefer the option of making Cadet and Senior recruiting ribbons the same.

Quote from: LTCinSWR on January 18, 2015, 06:47:25 AM
I know someone's ox will be gored, but I would appreciate your comments.

These are in the main all good suggestions as I see it.  Nobody's ox would be gored that isn't in it just for the blingage, as I see it.  Again I strongly support the idea of asking the Air Force to include us in eligibility for AF Civilian Awards when on AFAM's.

I can certainly see the impetus to reduce the number of ribbons senior members can wear.  (I will say, however, that I am not really sure why we would want to do this.)  That being said, many of the suggestions have more than a little merit.

However, there's one thing I'd like to add to the discussion ... Leave the Wilson Award alone.

It is the hardest training award to earn, and somewhere between 1 and 5 percent of all senior members will earn it.  Something that hard to get should be recognized all on its own.

And so what if the member sometimes screws up and puts it on upside down?  That can be fixed with a quick off-over-on on your rack.  No need to remove the decoration simply because some people don't know how to wear it right.

And I concur with CyBorg on the AF Civilian Air Medal.  What, exactly, is their reason for not allowing us to earn it, considering we used to be able to earn the real Air Medal?

Jack

Quote from: kwe1009 on January 18, 2015, 11:03:28 PM

Quote from: usafcap1 on January 18, 2015, 10:25:20 PM

Good Conduct: The AF has the Good Conduct ribbon. It would make sense that their "Auxiliary" would have it to. I won't lie I have heard that the AF was going to do away with it, but I yet to see that.

The Air Force did do away with the GCM for a number of years but brought it back recently. 

I don't really agree with having this medal as it is an award for not getting in TOO much trouble.  I don't think this medal motivates anyone to stay out of trouble.  I don't see the need for it in CAP either.  I don't believe you should get a medal for not screwing up.  You should get medals for doing something exceptional.

The Air Force Good Conduct Medal is only awarded to Active Duty and Guard/Reserve Enlisted personnel on Extended Active Duty.
Guard and Reserve Enlisted personnel on "normal" drill status get the Air Reserve Forces Meritorius Service Medal instead.
Officers are not eligible for either award.

Quote from: CyBorg on January 18, 2015, 11:47:10 PM
These ideas have merit.  I hope none of my replies (in blue) are taken as flames.

Replies in Green - (no flames - g)

I would delete the ESA, MSA and Achievement.  I would also seek to add the Civilian Air Medal for flight-specific award.

Intermediate headquarters should have the ability to reward meritorious or exceptional service at their level without attempting to inundate the National level Awards Committee.  


(Senior Training Ribbon) A good idea but possibly confusing since one of the ribbons is already extant.  I would use a new-design ribbon with Membership - plain, Leadership - bronze star, Loening - silver star, Garber - silver propeller, Wilson - golden propeller.


Now the cost gets driven up by non-standard devices (silver and gold prop). That is why I suggested numerals -  2 - Davis, 3 - Loening, etc...

Quote from: LTCinSWR on January 18, 2015, 06:47:25 AM
Find Ribbon

Good, but modify.  Leave the "Find" ribbon for ground teams and implement the Civilian Air Medal for aircrew.

There was no intent that ground teams be left out; the criteria would be the same as currently used.

I am not understanding the fascination with DAF Civilian awards being presented to CAP. Why mix things? DAF civilian employees are apples to CAP member Oranges. Also, AF Civilian awards generally have to be at Numbered AF or MAJCOM level; so, that adds (at least) two layers of Award Boards and Commanders' approvals. Right now, the Air Force is being tasked with doing more with less and I suspect they will balk at adding a bunch of reward requests in the limited time the Boards will have to review and recommend/reject. We should reward our own and not force that on the Air Force.

Quote from: LTCinSWR on January 18, 2015, 06:47:25 AM
Recruiting Ribbon

Good, but prefer the option of making Cadet and Senior recruiting ribbons the same.

That was my intent, but I didn't express it in my original post. You are the second person to catch me on that; thank you.

These are in the main all good suggestions as I see it.  Nobody's ox would be gored that isn't in it just for the blingage, as I see it.  Again I strongly support the idea of asking the Air Force to include us in eligibility for AF Civilian Awards when on AFAM's.

I reiterate my question from above vis a -vis DAF employees and CAP members. Thank you for the positive, reinforcing suggestions!

Quote from: ColonelJack on January 19, 2015, 12:20:51 AM
I can certainly see the impetus to reduce the number of ribbons senior members can wear.  (I will say, however, that I am not really sure why we would want to do this.)  That being said, many of the suggestions have more than a little merit.

I think my biggest reason for reducing ribbons is the public perception if they see a member in uniform who is fully kitted out with 25-28 ribbons - are they thinking " is that a (name your favorite third or fourth world) general?' In reality, we have three missions; I guess I am a minimalist at heart, but I also know the value of rewarding volunteers. Quality over quantity.

However, there's one thing I'd like to add to the discussion ... Leave the Wilson Award alone.

It is the hardest training award to earn, and somewhere between 1 and 5 percent of all senior members will earn it.  Something that hard to get should be recognized all on its own.

I'm not suggesting doing away with the award, just how it is represented on the uniform. Once again, my bias toward minimalism is out. YMMV

And so what if the member sometimes screws up and puts it on upside down?  That can be fixed with a quick off-over-on on your rack.  No need to remove the decoration simply because some people don't know how to wear it right.

Again, minimalism and risk reduction. I would hope by the time someone has their Wilson, that wouldn't be a problem, but why create potential embarrassment?

And I concur with CyBorg on the AF Civilian Air Medal.  What, exactly, is their reason for not allowing us to earn it, considering we used to be able to earn the real Air Medal?

The civilian AF awards require Numbered AF or MAJCOM (in some cases SecAF) approval. Do you think the Air Force wants to add that burden, especially with the reduction in forces and budgets we are seeing?

My responses in blue

Quote from: arajca on January 18, 2015, 02:26:43 PM
This could really be called a consolidation suggestion for senior awards. IMHO the number of ribbons we have are excessive. Some are redundant, when you consider some of the metallic badges. So, here are my suggestions, in descending order.

Awards and Decorations:
Leave the SMV, BMV, DSA, ESA, MSA, CC, Achievement, Lifesaving Award, NCUC and UC alone. These represent out of the ordinary efforts and should be recognized.

No complaints here.

Agreed


Senior Training Ribbon
Wilson, Garber, Loening, Leadership, Membership - Create a single Senior training ribbon (Use the Garber Ribbon - it's the only one you can't get upside down), with attachments for level of completion '5' Wilson, etc.

Keep Wilson, combine rest.

Agreed with keeping Wilson as is and combining the rest. Personally though, I would design an entirely new Senior Member Professional Development ribbon instead of using one of the existing ones.


Aerospace Education Ribbon (Current AEPSM/Yeager Ribbon)
AEPSM / Yeager, Crossfield - Consolidate to a single ribbon and implement a 5 step training process, similar to the Senior Training Levels, with numerical attachments

Kill the Crossfield – it’s a triple dip (Master AE gets Crossfield, Master badge, AND silver star on Leadership). No other track has a special ribbon for Master level. I'd add a star for seniors completing all the requirements for the cadet model rocketry badge.

Drop the Crossfield, you already have the badge, and keep the Yeager as is.


Find Ribbon - Leave it alone - this represents what we seek to accomplish in Emergency Services

No complaints

Agreed


Operations Ribbon (Current SAR Ribbon)
Consolidate the SAR, Disaster Relief, Counter Drug and Homeland Security Ribbons;  award a single ribbon, based on combined sorties.

I could live with it.

I don't hate the idea. Again, I'd rather see a new Ops ribbon designed than to use an existing one. Though I'd keep the tri-prop from the SAR ribbon to denote Air vs Ground.


Prior cadet service: Senior-most cadet achievement/milestone ribbon.

No complaints


Cadet Program Support Ribbon (Current IACE Ribbon)
Consolidate the IACE, NSAR, CAC, NCC/ NCGC, Encampment, Cadet Orientation Pilot and Community Services Ribbons. Cadets turning Senior would consolidate their ribbons with attachments.

Need to think about this one.

Most of these are sufficiently different that I don't think combining them all would be a good idea. Community Service really has nothing to do with with Cadet Programs, it can be earned by Senior Members who never even see a cadet, let alone support CP. Eliminate IACE and NCC/NCGC and award the NCSA ribbon for those; everything else, leave as is.


Eliminate the Command Service Ribbon - duplicated by the UCB and National Badges

Agreed.

Agreed, especially now that graduated commanders are required to wear the command badge on the Air Force style uniforms.


Red Service Ribbon - rename it the 'Longevity Ribbon' and retain with current criteria.

Agreed

I'd just drop the 'Red', but to each their own.


Retain the Wartime Service Ribbon, but call it the Military Service Ribbon. Use a gold star attachment to represent service during the time specified for the Congressional Gold Medal. Otherwise, it could be worn by members who have received an honorable discharge from an armed service.

OK, but move it up above the training ribbons.

I actually really like this idea, especially for former military who wear the whites and are not allowed to wear military decs. In addition you might want to add a silver star for members who served during a time of conflict (i.e. when the NDSM is awarded)


Recruiting Ribbon - Retain, but increase the number of verifiable recruited members to 10.

Disagree. Consolidate Cadet Recruiting and Senior Recruiting ribbons. Change criteria to 2 for first award, 3 more for second, and 5 for each afterward.

Agreed with arajca's lower qualifying numbers. It's hard enough to recruit people sometimes and you want this to be something that people actually think they can get.

usafcap, I was going to respond to each of yours individually, but I won't. The plain fact is that none of them, with one exception, make any real sense for CAP. Based on your previous responses, the whole point of using these ribbons is to emulate the air force more, that's fine; but none of these ribbons reflect what CAP does. We don't use guns regularly, we don't land planes on a wing and a prayer, we don't hunt down terrorists or directly serve in the defense of our nation, and with the possible exception of a few members in Alaska, we don't do Arctic service.

The one exception in your list is the Member of the Year Award. Of course we already have plenty of 'Of the Year' awards, but creating a ribbon to recognize those awards would be a lot easier than trying to pin a plaque to your chest. Of course if you wore that plaque on a big chain around your neck and you too could be a major rap star.  >:D

Quote from: jeders on January 19, 2015, 03:12:13 AM
The one exception in your list is the Member of the Year Award. Of course we already have plenty of 'Of the Year' awards, but creating a ribbon to recognize those awards would be a lot easier than trying to pin a plaque to your chest. Of course if you wore that plaque on a big chain around your neck and you too could be a major rap star.  >:D

There was a Member of the Year Award approved several years ago. It was designated the National Honors Award to award to those that earned things like National PAO of the Year. Ribbon approved, produced, waiting on approval for distribution.

Before a giant discussion begins this thing was already hashed out and bombarded on CAPTalk some time ago.

Quote from: usafcap1 on January 18, 2015, 10:25:20 PM


Thank you I view AFI 36-1004 as soon as I can.

Marksmanship "BME Ribbon": Its purpose would be to "do away" with the NRA dangley medal deal, that cadets wear on their blues. But possibly open the doors to allow Senior's to partake in BME.

Mission Readiness: In this day and age we should always be ready Auxiliary or not. And plus this applies to all missions.

Good Conduct: The AF has the Good Conduct ribbon. It would make sense that their "Auxiliary" would have it to. I won't lie I have heard that the AF was going to do away with it, but I yet to see that.

GWOT and NDSM: These were ideas that have been submitted to me. BUT are still being "FLUSHED OUT".  Meaning that if I can't come to a good enough reason for us to have it, than I'm most likely not going to submit it for consideration. (Hence why they fall under the "Ideas that have been entered. BUT are still being "flush out" category  >:D )

Are there any other ribbons that I have post that require justification?


My apologies if my answers sound mean. I'm not trying to be.

No worries. I just find that any militarization of an organization which, per Congress and it's own regulations, is of a benign nature is a little alarming. Unless the AF adopts CAP as the Coasties do their Auxiliary, I see no reason for some of these.

Purple heart? The Border Patrol has the Purple Cross; same idea, different award. But both them and us DoD guys have a reasonable expectation to come under fire.

36-1004 does have an award for that circumstance, but I feel it unnecessary to play military when we have a very important civilian mission we need to focus on first. We focus on that, get squared away in a way that the AF can look at and respect.

I don't understand what a Mission Readiness, or what one would do to get one.  I don't understand Arctic Service either.

The overseas/combat-related ribbons, as well as NDSM, are totally not appropriate for CAP, so that's all I have on that.

Good Conduct is pointless for CAP.  Very, very few CAP members are enlisted grades.  Also, we do not use the UCMJ, so the disciplinary stuff isn't there.  You might get a termination, rarely a suspension or demotion, but that's about all that's even specifically outlined.  Other corrective/disciplinary stuff doesn't really exist.  It doesn't serve a purpose, really.

Quote from: TheTravelingAirman on January 19, 2015, 04:09:00 AM
No worries. I just find that any militarization of an organization which, per Congress and it's own regulations, is of a benign nature is a little alarming.

A little ancient history (I don't mind dating myself) - That is why I have wondered why we have worn BATTLE Dress Uniforms. Granted, when the Air Force replaced the old fatigues with the Woodland Pattern, that was because of supply issues; guess the same will eventually happen with the ACU ('C', as in 'Combat'). Sort of struck me as strange.  I'm perfectly content with 'blue' field uniform.

Quote from: jeders on January 19, 2015, 03:12:13 AM
My responses in blue
Awards and Decorations:
Leave the SMV, BMV, DSA, ESA, MSA, CC, Achievement, Lifesaving Award, NCUC and UC alone. These represent out of the ordinary efforts and should be recognized.

No complaints here.

Agreed

I have been thinking about this and have wondered why the Lifesaving Award is lower in precedence than the Achievement Award. The Lifesaving Award is approved at the wing level (I remember when it was a Nationally approved award, in the early 80's) and is certainly more meritorious than the Achievement Award, especially if it is an individual save.


Senior Training Ribbon
Wilson, Garber, Loening, Leadership, Membership - Create a single Senior training ribbon (Use the Garber Ribbon - it's the only one you can't get upside down), with attachments for level of completion '5' Wilson, etc.

Keep Wilson, combine rest.

Agreed with keeping Wilson as is and combining the rest. Personally though, I would design an entirely new Senior Member Professional Development ribbon instead of using one of the existing ones.

Makes sense to me


Retain the Wartime Service Ribbon, but call it the Military Service Ribbon. Use a gold star attachment to represent service during the time specified for the Congressional Gold Medal. Otherwise, it could be worn by members who have received an honorable discharge from an armed service.

I actually really like this idea, especially for former military who wear the whites and are not allowed to wear military decs. In addition you might want to add a silver star for members who served during a time of conflict (i.e. when the NDSM is awarded)

The NDSM=silver star is a great idea

I feel like Lifesaving order should be changed.  You can get an Achievement award for a lot of basic things, and it doesn't seem to make sense that saving a life is below a successful rocketry weekend.

Quote from: LTCinSWR on January 19, 2015, 04:50:56 AM

Quote from: TheTravelingAirman on January 19, 2015, 04:09:00 AM
No worries. I just find that any militarization of an organization which, per Congress and it's own regulations, is of a benign nature is a little alarming.

A little ancient history (I don't mind dating myself) - That is why I have wondered why we have worn BATTLE Dress Uniforms. Granted, when the Air Force replaced the old fatigues with the Woodland Pattern, that was because of supply issues; guess the same will eventually happen with the ACU ('C', as in 'Combat'). Sort of struck me as strange.  I'm perfectly content with 'blue' field uniform.

I am kinda partial to the "pickle suit" as well. But yes, the blue field uniform looked good the first time I saw it. Still kinda want to flaunt my MX badge, but eh, I'll live. That's what the real uniform is for.

Quote from: PHall on January 19, 2015, 12:26:46 AM

Quote from: kwe1009 on January 18, 2015, 11:03:28 PM

Quote from: usafcap1 on January 18, 2015, 10:25:20 PM

Good Conduct: The AF has the Good Conduct ribbon. It would make sense that their "Auxiliary" would have it to. I won't lie I have heard that the AF was going to do away with it, but I yet to see that.

The Air Force did do away with the GCM for a number of years but brought it back recently. 

I don't really agree with having this medal as it is an award for not getting in TOO much trouble.  I don't think this medal motivates anyone to stay out of trouble.  I don't see the need for it in CAP either.  I don't believe you should get a medal for not screwing up.  You should get medals for doing something exceptional.

The Air Force Good Conduct Medal is only awarded to Active Duty and Guard/Reserve Enlisted personnel on Extended Active Duty.
Guard and Reserve Enlisted personnel on "normal" drill status get the Air Reserve Forces Meritorius Service Medal instead.
Officers are not eligible for either award.

That is true and I don't see the need for either in the USAF or CAP.

Quote from: kwe1009 on January 19, 2015, 02:33:18 PM

Quote from: PHall on January 19, 2015, 12:26:46 AM

Quote from: kwe1009 on January 18, 2015, 11:03:28 PM

Quote from: usafcap1 on January 18, 2015, 10:25:20 PM

Good Conduct: The AF has the Good Conduct ribbon. It would make sense that their "Auxiliary" would have it to. I won't lie I have heard that the AF was going to do away with it, but I yet to see that.

The Air Force did do away with the GCM for a number of years but brought it back recently. 

I don't really agree with having this medal as it is an award for not getting in TOO much trouble.  I don't think this medal motivates anyone to stay out of trouble.  I don't see the need for it in CAP either.  I don't believe you should get a medal for not screwing up.  You should get medals for doing something exceptional.

The Air Force Good Conduct Medal is only awarded to Active Duty and Guard/Reserve Enlisted personnel on Extended Active Duty.
Guard and Reserve Enlisted personnel on "normal" drill status get the Air Reserve Forces Meritorius Service Medal instead.
Officers are not eligible for either award.

That is true and I don't see the need for either in the USAF or CAP.

Did you ever receive one? I have.  The majority of the people I've dealt with who saw no need for it never got one...

Just sayin...

Quote from: PHall on January 20, 2015, 02:47:48 AM

Quote from: kwe1009 on January 19, 2015, 02:33:18 PM

Quote from: PHall on January 19, 2015, 12:26:46 AM

Quote from: kwe1009 on January 18, 2015, 11:03:28 PM

Quote from: usafcap1 on January 18, 2015, 10:25:20 PM

Good Conduct: The AF has the Good Conduct ribbon. It would make sense that their "Auxiliary" would have it to. I won't lie I have heard that the AF was going to do away with it, but I yet to see that.

The Air Force did do away with the GCM for a number of years but brought it back recently. 

I don't really agree with having this medal as it is an award for not getting in TOO much trouble.  I don't think this medal motivates anyone to stay out of trouble.  I don't see the need for it in CAP either.  I don't believe you should get a medal for not screwing up.  You should get medals for doing something exceptional.

The Air Force Good Conduct Medal is only awarded to Active Duty and Guard/Reserve Enlisted personnel on Extended Active Duty.
Guard and Reserve Enlisted personnel on "normal" drill status get the Air Reserve Forces Meritorius Service Medal instead.
Officers are not eligible for either award.

That is true and I don't see the need for either in the USAF or CAP.

Did you ever receive one? I have.  The majority of the people I've dealt with who saw no need for it never got one...

Just sayin...

+1
No one saw a need for one in the USAF until they tried to take it away.....so yes there is a need for one.   They just needed to tighten up the definition of "good conduct".

Quote from: lordmonar on January 20, 2015, 03:12:29 AM

Quote from: PHall on January 20, 2015, 02:47:48 AM

Quote from: kwe1009 on January 19, 2015, 02:33:18 PM

Quote from: PHall on January 19, 2015, 12:26:46 AM

Quote from: kwe1009 on January 18, 2015, 11:03:28 PM

Quote from: usafcap1 on January 18, 2015, 10:25:20 PM

Good Conduct: The AF has the Good Conduct ribbon. It would make sense that their "Auxiliary" would have it to. I won't lie I have heard that the AF was going to do away with it, but I yet to see that.

The Air Force did do away with the GCM for a number of years but brought it back recently. 

I don't really agree with having this medal as it is an award for not getting in TOO much trouble.  I don't think this medal motivates anyone to stay out of trouble.  I don't see the need for it in CAP either.  I don't believe you should get a medal for not screwing up.  You should get medals for doing something exceptional.

The Air Force Good Conduct Medal is only awarded to Active Duty and Guard/Reserve Enlisted personnel on Extended Active Duty.
Guard and Reserve Enlisted personnel on "normal" drill status get the Air Reserve Forces Meritorius Service Medal instead.
Officers are not eligible for either award.

That is true and I don't see the need for either in the USAF or CAP.

Did you ever receive one? I have.  The majority of the people I've dealt with who saw no need for it never got one...

Just sayin...

+1
No one saw a need for one in the USAF until they tried to take it away.....so yes there is a need for one.   They just needed to tighten up the definition of "good conduct".

+2

Agreed. The medal is important to me.

Also, having known veterans of all services who earned only a Good Conduct Medal, it is very important to them because of what it represents.

Given the nature of this medal, however, I don't think there's a need for it in CAP. The daily standard required for it in the Air Force -- even the Reserve AFRMSM -- is not even close to what is required for CAP cadets or senior members. If that standard was applied in this organization, it would truly be interesting.

I saw more than a few people in my 22 year military career who weren't awarded the Good Conduct Medal when they should have been because of their behavior.

Also keep in mind that the Good Conduct Medals are among the oldest military awards issued by the United States. The Navy Good Conduct Medal (est. 1869) and Marine Corps Good Conduct Medal (est. 1896) are the 3rd and 4th oldest US military awards after the Purple Heart (est. 1782) and the Medal of Honor (est. 1861).

GCM was more an award for not having been caught ...

Quote from: DoubleSecret on January 20, 2015, 08:39:17 PM
GCM was more an award for not having been caught ...

Is that how you got yours? I actually earned mine.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on January 20, 2015, 10:43:24 PM

Quote from: DoubleSecret on January 20, 2015, 08:39:17 PM
GCM was more an award for not having been caught ...

Is that how you got yours? I actually earned mine.

It really is a command decision thing.  I have met Soldiers that got their GCM when they had a few Article 15s in those same 3 years.  I have met a young enlisted Soldier that pissed hot, got retained, and still had the GCM. 

If a Service Member is proud of their GCM, I won't belittle it, but I do look at the medal as a "meh" medal.

However, I find it interesting the GCM is for enlisted only while the ARCAM is for enlisted, warrant, and commissioned officers. 

At least it does not take very long to get the various GCM's in the U.S. military...

Canada's equivalent, the Canadian Forces Decoration (all ranks, all services, active and reservists), takes 12 years to get.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Forces_Decoration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Forces_Decoration)

The British equivalent, the Long Service and Good Conduct Medal, takes 15 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Service_and_Good_Conduct_Medal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Service_and_Good_Conduct_Medal)

They're a little easier on their Reservists...only 10 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volunteer_Reserves_Service_Medal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volunteer_Reserves_Service_Medal)

Imagine CAP trying to adopt those criteria.

CAP does not need a Good Conduct Medal....because we can quit at any time.

Even in an all volunteer force you got to stick it out and finish your enlistment before you can quit (and sometimes even then you can't get out.....Stop Loss anyone).   

So an award for sticking with it and staying out of trouble (more or less) is not really a bad idea.
We also have to remember....even though we are currently an all volunteer force....we still have provisions for a draft....and again...an award for those who submit to the draft and stick out their terms is not a bad idea.

But in CAP....I don't see the need for a CGM.   We got the Red Service Ribbon (which aught to be renamed the longevity ribbon). 

Quote from: PHall on January 20, 2015, 02:47:48 AM

Quote from: kwe1009 on January 19, 2015, 02:33:18 PM

Quote from: PHall on January 19, 2015, 12:26:46 AM

Quote from: kwe1009 on January 18, 2015, 11:03:28 PM

Quote from: usafcap1 on January 18, 2015, 10:25:20 PM

Good Conduct: The AF has the Good Conduct ribbon. It would make sense that their "Auxiliary" would have it to. I won't lie I have heard that the AF was going to do away with it, but I yet to see that.

The Air Force did do away with the GCM for a number of years but brought it back recently. 

I don't really agree with having this medal as it is an award for not getting in TOO much trouble.  I don't think this medal motivates anyone to stay out of trouble.  I don't see the need for it in CAP either.  I don't believe you should get a medal for not screwing up.  You should get medals for doing something exceptional.

The Air Force Good Conduct Medal is only awarded to Active Duty and Guard/Reserve Enlisted personnel on Extended Active Duty.
Guard and Reserve Enlisted personnel on "normal" drill status get the Air Reserve Forces Meritorius Service Medal instead.
Officers are not eligible for either award.

That is true and I don't see the need for either in the USAF or CAP.

Did you ever receive one? I have.  The majority of the people I've dealt with who saw no need for it never got one...

Just sayin...

I have 5 of them.  I don't agree with the medal because it an award for doing something that you are supposed to do and that is do your job and stay out of trouble.  I have never ran into any Air Force people that bragged or showed pride in getting the AFGCM.  Not saying there aren't any, just that I haven't seen them.  I understand that the medal may be difficult in some other services but I haven't even heard of any Air Force people not getting it even after Article 15's.  I knew someone that lost a stripe and still got the AFGCM.  To me it is on the same level as my Korean Defense Service Medal.  I didn't do anything to earn that either except go to Korea.

It is like Little League.  Everyone gets a trophy.  I'm not a fan of participation medals or ribbons.  They really don't serve a purpose.  I can understand a participation ribbon to some degree but it can be a little out of hand as well.  If you are going to have a medal then it should be for something more than just staying out of trouble. 

My experience was clearly different from yours. In both the Air National Guard and Air Force Reserve, I used to review the list for the Air Reserve Forces Meritorious Service Medal with my unit commanders. The most common reason for denying the ARFMSM aside from conduct issues was bad drill years during the award period. In the units I was in we made a big deal of the ARFMSM, making the award presentations formal. But then again, many of us in leadership roles were prior USN/USMC where the GCM is taken seriously, to the point where the lack of the award at any point can be a career killer.

Quote from: kwe1009 on January 21, 2015, 03:08:40 AM

Quote from: PHall on January 20, 2015, 02:47:48 AM

Quote from: kwe1009 on January 19, 2015, 02:33:18 PM

Quote from: PHall on January 19, 2015, 12:26:46 AM

Quote from: kwe1009 on January 18, 2015, 11:03:28 PM

Quote from: usafcap1 on January 18, 2015, 10:25:20 PM

Good Conduct: The AF has the Good Conduct ribbon. It would make sense that their "Auxiliary" would have it to. I won't lie I have heard that the AF was going to do away with it, but I yet to see that.

The Air Force did do away with the GCM for a number of years but brought it back recently. 

I don't really agree with having this medal as it is an award for not getting in TOO much trouble.  I don't think this medal motivates anyone to stay out of trouble.  I don't see the need for it in CAP either.  I don't believe you should get a medal for not screwing up.  You should get medals for doing something exceptional.

The Air Force Good Conduct Medal is only awarded to Active Duty and Guard/Reserve Enlisted personnel on Extended Active Duty.
Guard and Reserve Enlisted personnel on "normal" drill status get the Air Reserve Forces Meritorius Service Medal instead.
Officers are not eligible for either award.

That is true and I don't see the need for either in the USAF or CAP.

Did you ever receive one? I have.  The majority of the people I've dealt with who saw no need for it never got one...

Just sayin...

I have 5 of them.  I don't agree with the medal because it an award for doing something that you are supposed to do and that is do your job and stay out of trouble.  I have never ran into any Air Force people that bragged or showed pride in getting the AFGCM.  Not saying there aren't any, just that I haven't seen them.  I understand that the medal may be difficult in some other services but I haven't even heard of any Air Force people not getting it even after Article 15's.  I knew someone that lost a stripe and still got the AFGCM.  To me it is on the same level as my Korean Defense Service Medal.  I didn't do anything to earn that either except go to Korea.

It is like Little League.  Everyone gets a trophy.  I'm not a fan of participation medals or ribbons.  They really don't serve a purpose.  I can understand a participation ribbon to some degree but it can be a little out of hand as well.  If you are going to have a medal then it should be for something more than just staying out of trouble.

Maybe it was a little different in SAC. My squadron commanders actually reviewed the roster and if you had a UIF, no medal for you.
If you got a Letter of Repremand or an Article 15, you had a UIF.
Sounds like your commanders didn't give a crap and just signed off on it.

Quote from: lordmonar on January 21, 2015, 12:41:49 AM
CAP does not need a Good Conduct Medal....because we can quit at any time.

Even in an all volunteer force you got to stick it out and finish your enlistment before you can quit (and sometimes even then you can't get out.....Stop Loss anyone).   

So an award for sticking with it and staying out of trouble (more or less) is not really a bad idea.
We also have to remember....even though we are currently an all volunteer force....we still have provisions for a draft....and again...an award for those who submit to the draft and stick out their terms is not a bad idea.

But in CAP....I don't see the need for a CGM.   We got the Red Service Ribbon (which aught to be renamed the longevity ribbon).

Good point on the selective service. I've got just shy of 13 months until mine runs out at 26. Of course if shtf, only 28% qualify  under current standards..

Continued membership in CAP in itself would imply you are conducting yourself appropriately.  Whereas the military, you can be punished, charged, fined, confined to quarters or even the brig and still stay in and finish out your service.

CAP does not need a GCM...absolutely no point to it. We have the Red Service, which is basically our version of "I've stayed out of trouble for two years",  and various other forms of recognizing individual and unit service (CCA, Achievement, MSA etc)...use these to recognize those who make noteworthy contributions.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on January 20, 2015, 10:43:24 PM

Quote from: DoubleSecret on January 20, 2015, 08:39:17 PM
GCM was more an award for not having been caught ...

Is that how you got yours? I actually earned mine.

+1

Veterans should look at the whole picture. Depending on when you enlisted you could have been on active duty for six years and the only thing you got was a GCM. Now we know the majority of people, at least the ones in CAP, love the bling bling. Different strokes for different folks ..  8)

Quote from: PHall on January 21, 2015, 05:04:26 AM

Quote from: kwe1009 on January 21, 2015, 03:08:40 AM

I have 5 of them.  I don't agree with the medal because it an award for doing something that you are supposed to do and that is do your job and stay out of trouble.  I have never ran into any Air Force people that bragged or showed pride in getting the AFGCM.  Not saying there aren't any, just that I haven't seen them.  I understand that the medal may be difficult in some other services but I haven't even heard of any Air Force people not getting it even after Article 15's.  I knew someone that lost a stripe and still got the AFGCM.  To me it is on the same level as my Korean Defense Service Medal.  I didn't do anything to earn that either except go to Korea.

It is like Little League.  Everyone gets a trophy.  I'm not a fan of participation medals or ribbons.  They really don't serve a purpose.  I can understand a participation ribbon to some degree but it can be a little out of hand as well.  If you are going to have a medal then it should be for something more than just staying out of trouble.

Maybe it was a little different in SAC. My squadron commanders actually reviewed the roster and if you had a UIF, no medal for you.
If you got a Letter of Repremand or an Article 15, you had a UIF.
Sounds like your commanders didn't give a crap and just signed off on it.
[/quote]

By regs a UIF can be removed after 1 year so by the time the list came down for the GCM the UIF could be gone and a new commander with no knowledge of the UIF in place so the GCM gets approved.

And that is a problem with nearly all military awards and decorations, over inflation.  For example during Desert Storm I saw very few people getting even an Achievement Medal but a few years after Enduring Freedom started now there are tons of Bronze Stars being handed out like candy.  There are troops that never even heard gun fire that have one or more BSMs while there are others that risked their lives almost daily just a few years earlier that didn't get anything.  That is the way the system works unfortunately.

Even if the standard for the GCM was followed equally I still don't agree with it.  It is still a medal for just doing your job.  I feel the same way about "mid-tour and end of tour" medals as well as medals for deployments.  You should have to do something above and beyond the call of duty to earn any medal.  Just being "present" and doing your job properly is not is worth nothing more than a a pat on the back.  It is what you are being paid to do.

I did some research on the GCM back when the Air Force got rid of it and what I found out was that it was created as a tool to try and keep the enlisted troops in line and out of trouble.  That is why it is only for enlisted.  At a time when enlisted were mostly uneducated and tended to be unruly this medal was seen as a way to reward those that stayed out of trouble and also to hopefully encourage others to stay out if trouble to earn the medal.

I don't know.....I saw a lot of medals being awarded for Desert Storm.    I served from 1986 to 2008......it seemed to me that the amount and types of medals awards seemed pretty consistent in a macro sense....at least in the USAF.

I never try to compare on service with the other.....because....they are different.

I do agree that the GCM was awarded to people who....probably should not have gotten it.....but that also goes for just about every award at a micro level.

Quote from: Private Investigator on January 22, 2015, 09:59:41 AM
Veterans should look at the whole picture. Depending on when you enlisted you could have been on active duty for six years and the only thing you got was a GCM. Now we know the majority of people, at least the ones in CAP, love the bling bling. Different strokes for different folks ..  8)

Isn't there a song about that...

Because it s all about the bling, about the bling, more medals. its all about the bling about the bling more medals.  ;D ;D

Quote from: kwe1009 on January 22, 2015, 03:24:23 PM
And that is a problem with nearly all military awards and decorations, over inflation.  For example during Desert Storm I saw very few people getting even an Achievement Medal but a few years after Enduring Freedom started now there are tons of Bronze Stars being handed out like candy.  There are troops that never even heard gun fire that have one or more BSMs while there are others that risked their lives almost daily just a few years earlier that didn't get anything.  That is the way the system works unfortunately.

I think people are bias on this.  The Army has been tracking the number of awards given out since 1800s:

https://www.hrc.army.mil/TAGD/Awards%20and%20Decorations%20Statistics%20by%20Conflict (https://www.hrc.army.mil/TAGD/Awards%20and%20Decorations%20Statistics%20by%20Conflict)

There were 27,076 BSMs (A/S) for the Gulf War, while there 65,125 BSMs (A/S) for OEF and 99,886 BSM (A/S) for OIF.  Considering that Desert Storm was from August 1990 to February 1991 and OIF and OEF were 8 years 8 months and 13 years and 3 months + respectively, it starts to make sense.  So OIF averaged about 11,400 BSMs a year, OEF averaged 4915 a year, and Gulf War was 27,000 BSMs for a 0.5 year. 

Id be interested to see how many had "V" devices vs being the BSM awarded for meritorious service since they are essentially two different awards.

Quote from: Flying Pig on January 22, 2015, 05:40:18 PM
Id be interested to see how many had "V" devices vs being the BSM awarded for meritorious service since they are essentially two different awards.

Click the link. They are broken out to BSM (a/s) and BSM with Valor

So I do apologize in using a term that not every one is familiar with.  (A/S) stands for achievement/service.

To answer the question:

BSMs/V:

Gulf War:  891
OEF:  2036
OIF:  2,459

ARCOM/V:
Gulf War:  976
OEF:  3,340
OIF:  5,062

Oops.  Wrong column.  Corrected the numbers

Quote from: LSThiker on January 22, 2015, 06:44:28 PM
So I do apologize in using a term that not every one is familiar with.  (A/S) stands for achievement/service.

To answer the question:

BSMs/V:

Gulf War:  891
OEF:  2036
OIF:  2,459

ARCOM/V:
Gulf War:  976
OEF:  3,340
OIF:  5,062

Oops.  Wrong column.  Corrected the numbers

Just a fine point to your post, please remember that the first Gulf War or Desert Storm consisted of three campaigns: Operations DESERT SHIELD, DESERT STORM, and DESERT CALM taking place during the period 2 Aug 90 through 30 Nov 95. Somewhere in the process there was an Operation DESERT SWORD (which I only remember from seeing documents related to it during that war) and DESERT FAREWELL which was supposed to be the redeployment back to the U.S. but some units were actually diverted to Africa for humanitarian missions.

The thing about the first Gulf War in contrast to today's conflict is that we admittedly have gone overboard with medals, and ribbons. I once had a CENTAF guide to awards and decorations and was surprised to note what was considered appropriate recognition for Gulf War service. Veterans of that era are considered Gulf War veterans even if they didn't serve there (which is the same classification by the VA). But it also means that someone serving in the TO could earn as much as five to six different service and foreign awards just for being there, depending on the service, while direct support personnel (such as I was -- as reflected by the entry in the remarks section of my DD Form 214) could earn an AF Overseas Long or Short Tour ribbon outside the TO because it related to the war.

When I retired from the AF in 1994, I thought I had done pretty well with five rows of decorations and awards, then I met a senior airman with six years service who eclipsed me with seven rows of ribbons -- the highest being and the AFAM and all valid because they reflected deployments to Bosnia and other places. Humbling -- but it also means that there is greater attention to recognizing the accomplishments of subordinates but, in my opinion, to the extreme.

The thing is, there is just as much an element of choice in awards and decorations as there is the intent to recognize and it is amazing to see what really counts. Recently I requested copies of my military records. Certainly there were DD Form 214s and a records RIP showing everything, but what surprised me was the permanent copies and orders for every decoration and the documentation verifying entitlement to my Humanitarian Service Medal -- which is a campaign medal by DoD standards.

Through this whole string, we have debated eliminating various awards, combining others, and creating new. I think it would be really exciting if Ma AF would allow CAP to strive to achieve the various civilian awards -- but at the core of the issue, we can decide as members whether we really want to wear all that bling or chose to consolidate things on our uniforms by choice.

Quote from: flyboy53 on January 24, 2015, 02:08:59 PM
Just a fine point to your post, please remember that the first Gulf War or Desert Storm consisted of three campaigns: Operations DESERT SHIELD, DESERT STORM, and DESERT CALM taking place during the period 2 Aug 90 through 30 Nov 95. Somewhere in the process there was an Operation DESERT SWORD (which I only remember from seeing documents related to it during that war) and DESERT FAREWELL which was supposed to be the redeployment back to the U.S. but some units were actually diverted to Africa for humanitarian missions.

Operation DESERT SABRE (first to be called DESERT SWORD) was part of Operation DESERT STORM.  It lasted 24-28 February 1991 and was never really a separate phase from Operation DESERT STORM.  Operation DESERT CALM and DESERT FAREWELL were the same thing.  Then we also started Operation PROVIDE COMFORT and Operation PROVIDE COMFORT II from 1991 to 1996.

However, since BSMs /V and ARCOMs /V were Army combat related awards, remember the ground war was only 4 days long (24-28 February 1991 (Operation DESERT SABRE), it is safe to assume that the vast majority of these valor awards were awarded during a 0.5 years span.  Regardless of what time period we pick for the Gulf War, the assertion that we have began handing out BSMs like candy is simply unfounded when considering that ground operations for OIF and OEF have been much longer than Desert Storm timeline.  I agree that some BSMs have been handed out on rather low standards (i.e. I processed a BSM for a pharmacist that only did his job, but because he was an O-4 he was "entitled" to a BSM).  Over all, the rates is roughly the same.

Now I am against handing out End of Tour awards for operations since that is what the campaign medals are for.  Each person in my company had to have an ARCOM or higher and those that were given AAMs had to be "justified" (basically you had to demonstrate how they screwed up). 

Quote from: LSThiker on January 22, 2015, 06:44:28 PM
So I do apologize in using a term that not every one is familiar with.  (A/S) stands for achievement/service.

To answer the question:

BSMs/V:

Gulf War:  891
OEF:  2036
OIF:  2,459

ARCOM/V:
Gulf War:  976
OEF:  3,340
OIF:  5,062

Oops.  Wrong column.  Corrected the numbers

Ahhhh OK I didnt know what A/S meant.  Got it, thanks

(http://www.colganmarketing.com/img/lego.gif)

I find it a bit funny when I see a Bronze Star License plate at the VA, and is it not for a BSV. Im like your really proud you got a Bronze Star for Meritorius Reasons, or an End Of Tour Award?

And that's funny how? At least those who do that are not misrepresenting themselves. Why is it funny for someone to display an award? If that was the case, then many here are >very< funny.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on January 31, 2015, 08:11:30 PM
And that's funny how? At least those who do that are not misrepresenting themselves. Why is it funny for someone to display an award? If that was the case, then many here are >very< funny.

I don't see an issue with it.  You earned it, you qualify, why not?

Not all purple hearts are created equal, either, but it's still a Purple Heart!

Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2015, 08:15:04 PM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on January 31, 2015, 08:11:30 PM
And that's funny how? At least those who do that are not misrepresenting themselves. Why is it funny for someone to display an award? If that was the case, then many here are >very< funny.

I don't see an issue with it.  You earned it, you qualify, why not?

Not all purple hearts are created equal, either, but it's still a Purple Heart!

Very true. All Veterans should lift each other up instead of claiming it was tougher for me than you for example. Or my time meant something and yours was trivial. JMHO, YMMV  8)