CAP Talk

General Discussion => Membership => Topic started by: DMinick on December 01, 2013, 08:00:34 PM

Title: Pamphlet updates?
Post by: DMinick on December 01, 2013, 08:00:34 PM
A little while back I had asked a question concerning my Personnel pamphlet. I was told that it was way out of date and I agree. Now my question is this. How do I go about getting it updated? Who do I speak to about doing it or is it something I just do and submit to NHQ? I am attempting to work towards taking initiative and perhaps this may be a bit to much!

Title: Re: Pamphlet updates?
Post by: a2capt on December 01, 2013, 08:07:41 PM
"your" pamphlet?
Title: Re: Pamphlet updates?
Post by: DMinick on December 01, 2013, 08:22:57 PM
Sorry!! The Personnel pamphlet. That's the one I'm focusing on at the moment, although I have two other jobs as well.
Title: Re: Pamphlet updates?
Post by: a2capt on December 01, 2013, 08:41:10 PM
Chances are that NHQ is well aware of it.

However .. you could write up a summary of sections, cite page/paragraph and send it to your next inline, in hopes that it eventually makes NHQ, since there does not appear to be a publications contact point at NHQ.

http://www.capmembers.com/cap_national_hq/nhq-contacts/ (http://www.capmembers.com/cap_national_hq/nhq-contacts/)

Closest otherwise, I'd figure would be Professional Development: prodev@capnhq.gov Bobbie Tourville (877) 227-9142 x405
Title: Re: Pamphlet updates?
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on December 01, 2013, 08:47:49 PM
You can write to National Headquarters, but NHQ will still update the pamphlet at their own leisure... If they would be that responsive to members views about outdated regulations, 39-1 would have been updated as of 5 years ago!

Flyer
Title: Re: Pamphlet updates?
Post by: DMinick on December 01, 2013, 09:04:21 PM
So it's pretty much a waste of time to attempt to do any of that is what I'm getting. :(
Title: Re: Pamphlet updates?
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on December 01, 2013, 09:11:40 PM
Just keep the changes written for yourself and for any assistant you get or your replacement.

:P

Flyer
Title: Re: Pamphlet updates?
Post by: lordmonar on December 01, 2013, 09:32:38 PM
Quote from: DMinick on December 01, 2013, 09:04:21 PM
So it's pretty much a waste of time to attempt to do any of that is what I'm getting. :(
No absolutely not.

If the pamphlet needs to be updated......write up the fixes...forward them to your wing commander (through channels) who should send them up the chain.

The problem with updating regs and pamplets is that there is no Air Staff like they have in DC who have nothing to do but take care of one small area of competence. (and even then they usually have 2-3 areas to worry about and 3 fires to deal with today :) ).

Maybe your suggestions will spark the CSAG (is that what the NEC/NB is called now?) to staff it. 

In the mean time share your updates with your peers and with wing/group personnel officer.
Title: Re: Pamphlet updates?
Post by: DMinick on December 01, 2013, 10:51:45 PM
Thank you all!! I will see what I can do about updating the information. It may take me a year! LOL  :P
Title: Re: Pamphlet updates?
Post by: Eclipse on December 02, 2013, 12:23:10 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 01, 2013, 09:32:38 PM
Quote from: DMinick on December 01, 2013, 09:04:21 PM
So it's pretty much a waste of time to attempt to do any of that is what I'm getting. :(
No absolutely not.

It really is.

If someone wants to write up the issues with a pamphlet or regulation for local use, so be it,
but no one is going to care about a downstream personnel officer writing up changes
unless they've been asked to do it.

Why?  Because either there's a person whose job it is who isn't doing it already and won't be interested,
or because there isn't a person whose job it is, in which case, it sits on a vacant desk.

And that assumes it ever gets past the wing CC to start with.
Title: Re: Pamphlet updates?
Post by: lordmonar on December 02, 2013, 12:48:56 AM
Like I said....maybe it might spark those who need to make the fixes.....to do their job.

If we don't try....it will never get fixed.  Yes, the likelihood of something getting done is low....but if we don't try then that likelihood is even lower.

YMMV.
Title: Re: Pamphlet updates?
Post by: Private Investigator on December 02, 2013, 01:04:45 AM
^ +1

I concur. What makes the pamphlet unuseable? If you are the Squadron DP ask questions to your Group DP, if your Wing does not have Groups go directly to Wing DP.  8)
Title: Re: Pamphlet updates?
Post by: SarDragon on December 02, 2013, 01:17:27 AM
Quote from: Private Investigator on December 02, 2013, 01:04:45 AM
^ +1

I concur. What makes the pamphlet unuseable? If you are the Squadron DP ask questions to your Group DP, if your Wing does not have Groups go directly to Wing DP.  8)

The issue is with the test for the Senior rating. The references are badly outdated, and in some cases, nonexistent. The answer key is mostly unusable for that reason. Several answers have changed in just the last few months, with the governance changes.

Taking the test, and answering the intent of the questions, rather than the letter, is a longer than needs to be process.
Title: Re: Pamphlet updates?
Post by: Private Investigator on December 02, 2013, 01:26:34 AM
Why a test for Senior rating and not for Tech or Master?

The other pamphlets that has been recently revised has been good work. Hopefully it would be good work instead of flawed from day #1.  8)
Title: Re: Pamphlet updates?
Post by: SarDragon on December 02, 2013, 01:36:12 AM
Quote from: Private Investigator on December 02, 2013, 01:26:34 AM
Why a test for Senior rating and not for Tech or Master?

The other pamphlets that has been recently revised has been good work. Hopefully it would be good work instead of flawed from day #1.  8)

The "meat" of the specialty occurs at the Senior level. Technician level is mostly "paper pushing", while the Senior level gets much more into being an administrator/supervisor, and requires the expert level knowledge. At least that's what I'm getting from the pamphlet. I just took the test a few months ago, and my commander kicked it back because of recent changes. I'm not complaining, because this is where I prove my knowledge of how personnel functions work.

YMMV.
Title: Re: Pamphlet updates?
Post by: RiverAux on December 02, 2013, 03:23:53 AM
Seems to me that an easy work-around for NHQ would be to just change the test a bit and get rid of the questions that refer to now-changed policy. 

Obviously it would be better to change the pamphlet and the test, but changing the test probably wouldn't require the same administrative burden and may be able to be done quicker.   
Title: Re: Pamphlet updates?
Post by: MSG Mac on December 02, 2013, 04:34:26 AM
An easier thing is to rule out the expired questions and grade the test without them. as stated by others, You can print out a "Local" Personnel Guide for use in your unit. This would go hand in hand with establishing a continuity book for your successors, if there is none existing now. 

If you've ever been to National HQ, you will find out that they are aware of the problems, but are generally understaffed in every office, with a large layoff several months ago. The fix for most of them is that every section has a "volunteer" group consisting of subject matter experts who are asked to assist in correcting these problems, by writing new manuals, regs, etc. But each publication requires   several months to write and discuss among that group, distribution to the appropriate staff section for any updates, reading by the Senior Commanders, putting it out to the field for comment, and finally an authorized publication.
Title: Re: Pamphlet updates?
Post by: SarDragon on December 02, 2013, 05:01:24 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on December 02, 2013, 03:23:53 AM
Seems to me that an easy work-around for NHQ would be to just change the test a bit and get rid of the questions that refer to now-changed policy. 

Obviously it would be better to change the pamphlet and the test, but changing the test probably wouldn't require the same administrative burden and may be able to be done quicker.

The test is part of the pamphlet. The issue isn't so much the Qs, as it is the references, and occasionally the answers to perfectly good Qs.

Here's a fer'instance: The National Board is the governing body of CAP. List the officers which comprise this body.

This is a perfectly good bit of info to ask about - Who runs the show? - but the BoG is that body now. It needs fixed.

Another: When a member transfers to a new membership unit, who initiates the CAPF 2a requesting reassignment?

Since a 2a isn't the only method now, the new process needs to be incorporated into the Q. It's still something valid to ask.

Quote from: MSG Mac on December 02, 2013, 04:34:26 AM
An easier thing is to rule out the expired questions and grade the test without them. as stated by others, You can print out a "Local" Personnel Guide for use in your unit. This would go hand in hand with establishing a continuity book for your successors, if there is none existing now.

There are so many Qs that need revised, that taking the test without them, IMHO, degrades the value of the test, and is a waste of time. I counted at least 20, with several others that need updated references.
Title: Re: Pamphlet updates?
Post by: Alaric on December 02, 2013, 12:59:55 PM
I called National on this and their suggestion was to give the correct answers (not the answers supplied) and grade the entire test.  At some point next year an upgraded test will be available online.

Title: Re: Pamphlet updates?
Post by: DMinick on December 02, 2013, 04:05:31 PM
Since my problem was mainly with the test, it sounds like it may not be worth the time to work on this since there is supposed to be the updated one next year.

A couple of you mentioned that it was online now. Is that under learning management or some where else? Or perhaps I'm completely misunderstanding, which is a possibility!
Title: Re: Pamphlet updates?
Post by: SARDOC on December 05, 2013, 02:07:58 PM
Quote from: Alaric on December 02, 2013, 12:59:55 PM
I called National on this and their suggestion was to give the correct answers (not the answers supplied) and grade the entire test.  At some point next year an upgraded test will be available online.

The point of having the answers to the test was so that the test could be graded by the unit commander/testing officer, who possibly know very little about the Personnel Specialty.  Now, the person grading the test will need to be just as well versed as the person taking the test.  How many will mark questions correctly even though they've been changed in the regulation...because that's the way they've always done it.  Making the same assumption that the test taker made incorrectly.   

Since the documents have changed that a personnel officer should be familiar with, the learning objectives have also changed.   This is why in the other thread I mentioned that in lieu of a test there should be a discussion concerning the personnel matters...Convincing the approving authority that you meet the intended requirements for the Senior personnel rating.
Title: Re: Pamphlet updates?
Post by: SamFranklin on December 05, 2013, 02:51:49 PM

QuoteTask and EMPOWER a committee of the Region PDOs to fix it

Eclipse wrote that yesterday in the nonrenewal thread. He's absolutely right, and I think it applies to this discussion, too.

I wonder if a lack of empowerment is part of the problem.

Do the naitonal staff officers have authority to be aggressive, get in there, update old info, clarify sections that are frequently misinterpreted, etc.? I notice on the AF publications, the approving authority is usually a DCS. Does CAP even empower the national staff or is authority to update materials centrally controlled by the national commander or CSAG or BOG or employees?

Maybe on some of the biggest pubs like 60-1 and 39-1 only the senior leaders should be empowered to approve changes but in this instance, aren't we talking about a specialty track guide? If the DP or PD officer isn't authorized to publish changes on his own authority, well, shame on the system or the command staff for not empowering the functional experts. (Someone call Tom Peters!)

Title: Re: Pamphlet updates?
Post by: FW on December 05, 2013, 03:35:54 PM
There should not be a problem for staff to author, make changes, and approve CAPP's.  They are not regulatory, and only serve as educational tools.  IMHO, having the National Commander (who is, basically, the ultimate authority on regulations, etc.) make taskings, review, and approve these types of publications, is a poor use of time.  Oversight is one thing, forced micro management is another.

In a more perfect world, the use of technology (anyone ever hear of "Word 365") would be used for; say region PDO's to "meet" with the National PDO and DCS Support to deal with this...

YMMV... ::)
Title: Re: Pamphlet updates?
Post by: a2capt on December 05, 2013, 05:02:11 PM
Quote from: FW on December 05, 2013, 03:35:54 PM(anyone ever hear of "Word 365")
Great, something else that costs money. There's free alternatives. Google Docs, private wikimedia installation ..
Title: Re: Pamphlet updates?
Post by: FW on December 05, 2013, 05:21:49 PM
Quote from: a2capt on December 05, 2013, 05:02:11 PM
Quote from: FW on December 05, 2013, 03:35:54 PM(anyone ever hear of "Word 365")
Great, something else that costs money. There's free alternatives. Google Docs, private wikimedia installation ..

And they call me cheap... :P ;D
Yes!... by all means, use the free alternatives!! 8)
Title: Re: Pamphlet updates?
Post by: SarDragon on December 05, 2013, 11:50:45 PM
Quote from: SARDOC on December 05, 2013, 02:07:58 PM
The point of having the answers to the test was so that the test could be graded by the unit commander/testing officer, who possibly know very little about the Personnel Specialty.  Now, the person grading the test will need to be just as well versed as the person taking the test.  How many will mark questions correctly even though they've been changed in the regulation...because that's the way they've always done it.  Making the same assumption that the test taker made incorrectly.
When I did my test, knowing that things had changed, I included the reference along with the answer, so my CC could see where I got the new answer from. This ain't rocket surgery.

Is it more time consuming? Of course. It it a good learning experience? Sure, as long as everyone's on the same page. Instead of whining about how screwed up things are, take a little initiative, "do whatcha gotta do" and use the pamphlet and test in a positive manner to learn something.
Title: Re: Pamphlet updates?
Post by: Eclipse on December 06, 2013, 12:11:36 AM
Quote from: FW on December 05, 2013, 05:21:49 PM
Quote from: a2capt on December 05, 2013, 05:02:11 PM
Quote from: FW on December 05, 2013, 03:35:54 PM(anyone ever hear of "Word 365")
Great, something else that costs money. There's free alternatives. Google Docs, private wikimedia installation ..

And they call me cheap... :P ;D
Yes!... by all means, use the free alternatives!! 8)

It's not just being "cheap", it's that as soon as you suggest anything that has a cost attached, that's an automatic
"out" for people to reach for if they just don't want to do it. I've used it myself this week.

In this case, NHQ, as well as an increasing number of wings, already have the infrastructure in place to do this
without any extra effort.

There's also the issue of Office 365 being an abomination before the Lord, but that's a tangential conversation.
Title: Re: Pamphlet updates?
Post by: FW on December 06, 2013, 12:50:22 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on December 06, 2013, 12:11:36 AM
Quote from: FW on December 05, 2013, 05:21:49 PM
Quote from: a2capt on December 05, 2013, 05:02:11 PM
Quote from: FW on December 05, 2013, 03:35:54 PM(anyone ever hear of "Word 365")
Great, something else that costs money. There's free alternatives. Google Docs, private wikimedia installation ..

And they call me cheap... :P ;D
Yes!... by all means, use the free alternatives!! 8)

In this case, NHQ, as well as an increasing number of wings, already have the infrastructure in place to do this
without any extra effort.
So true.  At this point in time, there really isn't a good reason for "teams" to get the job done in a reasonable time frame.  Scores of potential volunteers are most willing to do it, however I think it may be difficult for some to "let go" of their authority.  Sad...