I ran across something very interesting while visiting a neighboring group HQ.
I have known this group CC for about 4 years and he is a nice person and is pretty dedicated to CAP. He is over the weight limit for AF style, so he wears corporate with CAP awards only on it of course.
Over the past few months though, he has been slipping. Making poor choices about staff or disappearing for a few weeks at a time. Enough that people have started to notice and question things about him.
For all 4 years I have known him, he has claimed to have served in the AF at a local base and then overseas (non-combat). He claims he made it up to SSgt, and he has a few little stories about his service time. Last year he posted a shadow box containing a few ribbons and medal stripes in his office.
Only problem with all that, another member did not believe his story and requested his public records. It came back not on file, the NPRC could not find anything with his name on it.
So, now there is a huge debate about this guy raging. What to do? He has not tried to use his "past military" in anyway to benefit him in CAP, yet he lied about this to everyone.
CAP ethic code violation? IG complaint? Push on and ignore?
What's everyone's thoughts on this? We always debate the person who passes themselves off as a hero, what about a person who passes themselves off as an average GI even though he wasn't
Quote from: NCRblues on June 14, 2013, 04:17:09 PM
CAP ethic code violation? IG complaint? Push on and ignore?
What's everyone's thoughts on this? We always debate the person who passes themselves off as a hero, what about a person who passes themselves off as an average GI even though he wasn't
Integrity issue at the very least, IMHO.
Did the hint/impression of him being an AF person in any way cause his chain of command to advance him over other, similarly qualified candidates? (hard to know, but I'm just saying that this kind of thing can have a sway)
If I let on that I was a successful business manager at my day job, and it caused my wing commander to pick me over another guy for command, and later it was found out that I work at Taco Bell on the morning shift (shhh, I have a penchant for the Caramel Apple Empenadas in the AM), would that be an integrity issue?
While disappearing for a while can be explained by too many things to count, and that making poor personnel choices isn't a crime or outlawed by regulation; I would just forget that.
As to the alleged lying about military service, but not asking for anything about it; I would confront him about it. I would also ask him to stop, as well as apologize for it. If that doesn't work, send a notice to the Wing CC for his advisement.
Was he discharged between September 1947 and January 1964? NPRC had a huge fire in 1972 that (according to their website) destroyed a majority of the files of USAF personnel discharged between those dates. That could explain the "not on file" answer.
If it turns out that he's not legit, CAP has to pull the plug on him, as I don't think our parent service would look kindly on giving him a pass.
I've found that the best way to handle difficult questions is... ask them.
Well, has anyone asked him about the prior service stuff yet or are we working off hearsay?
Has he ever claimed military service on any CAP forms or other official documents?
Ask to see his DD214, or better yet his ID card ;)
If he looks puzzled when you ask for his DD214, than he is bogus
Quote from: NIN on June 14, 2013, 04:31:11 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on June 14, 2013, 04:17:09 PM
CAP ethic code violation? IG complaint? Push on and ignore?
What's everyone's thoughts on this? We always debate the person who passes themselves off as a hero, what about a person who passes themselves off as an average GI even though he wasn't
Integrity issue at the very least, IMHO.
This.
Ask him the direct questions. If it's determined that he's lying, he needs to apologize/be relieved. Uphold a standard.
The recent thread of a "Fake Navy SEAL" is of similar nature. The individual hadn't (that was known of) used the embellishment towards influencing CAP matters. However.. if they're going that far, how do you know otherwise?
As for an ID card, unless you retire with benefits, you don't get one. You're supposed to turn them in. Not having one is not an end all. Doesn't sound like this guy is saying he retired.
He claims he was discharged in 1980, so the great records fire would not affect him.
I do not know if he has been asked directly.
I just wondered what everyone thought if he was found to be faking it.
Just an interesting case study I thought. Not claiming "hero or BA" status but still claiming to have served.
(IMHO, CAP could not keep him in command. I believe that would look shameful and sad for CAP if that made it out into the media... but I dont call the shots)
Quote from: NCRblues on June 14, 2013, 04:17:09 PM
Only problem with all that, another member did not believe his story and requested his public records. It came back not on file, the NPRC could not find anything with his name on it.
I'd confront him directly. Don't put too much weight on the NPRC request, records are lost or misfiled waaaaay too often. A DD 214 would be best if you absolutely need documentation, but seriously if he's not making a big deal over it, it may actually be legit. In my experience, most actual veterans are humble while the fakers are the ones out there loudly proclaiming their deeds and qualifications.
First question, did his having been former military have ANY bearing on the decision to place him in command?
Second question, is he performing effectively while in command?
If first answer is no and second is yes, then why oust him? This is also assuming you've gone to him and said "hey look, SM Snuffy back there did an FOIA request on your records, which came back negative, what gives?"
Additionally, did SM Snuffy ensure he had all the proper info for the request?
Quote from: Tim Medeiros on June 14, 2013, 05:28:54 PM
First question, did his having been former military have ANY bearing on the decision to place him in command?
Second question, is he performing effectively while in command?
If first answer is no and second is yes, then why oust him?
It's called
integrity and it's one of our core values.
Quote from: A.Member on June 14, 2013, 05:31:58 PM
It's called integrity and it's one of our core values.
Just to play Devil's Advocate, one could question going behind the CC's back to request records as an integrity issue as well. Too many times I've seen things that are quickly and more simply solved just by talking to someone.
Quote from: UH60guy on June 14, 2013, 06:19:11 PM
Too many times I've seen things that are quickly and more simply solved just by talking to someone.
Concur...I made a similar statement earlier - just ask him directly. Tell him there is concern about his claims and see how it plays out.
Frankly, our organization, more so than many others, needs to hold our members to a higher standard on these issues.
Quote from: PilotJoe78 on June 14, 2013, 04:53:10 PM
Ask to see his DD214, or better yet his ID card ;)
If he looks puzzled when you ask for his DD214, than he is bogus
You could also ask for an NGB22. It is possible to serve an entire career and never receive a DD214.
He's most likely legit. If he wanted to lie to impress folks, he'd claim he was in the Army not the Air Force. >:D
I was discharged from USAF in 1952, so my records may have been included in the fire. But my DD214 does not show all my activity in USAF. For example is shows no awards, does not show the earned Air Crew wings (which at that time was Squadron authorized and a letter of award to that effect was in my file. I think I may still have a copy of the letter), has an incorrect home address, does not show temporary promotions (reservists called to active duty did not get permanent promotions during this time period) it does include prior Army Reserve time under total service, but the dates are wrong.
It does not show the National Defense medal award (which may not have been awarded during my active duty period) and does not show allof the AFSC I served in.
Quote from: NC Hokie on June 14, 2013, 04:32:53 PM
Was he discharged between September 1947 and January 1964? NPRC had a huge fire in 1972 that (according to their website) destroyed a majority of the files of USAF personnel discharged between those dates. That could explain the "not on file" answer.
If it turns out that he's not legit, CAP has to pull the plug on him, as I don't think our parent service would look kindly on giving him a pass.
That fire has been blamed for more destruction than the firebombing of Dresden.
Let's say you work for a company and while tooling around on your city's public records website you input a person's name from your company's accounting department because the company personnel list is right in front of you and her name is at the top of the list.
Suddenly, her wrap sheet shows all sorts of criminal activity, to include financial crimes. DUI with a currently suspended license, currently on probation, and within the last 60 days was arrested for domestic battery.
Did you go behind her back? Is this an integrity issue? What so you do?
In the case of the group CC, someone exercised the FOIA and requested a record of military service because something didn't add up and it showed that he didn't serve in the military.
What so you do? Like the accounting lady, this person serves in a position of trust and responsibility. Is the request for the service record illegal? Unethical? Immoral? You learn that he doesn't have the history that he said he does, now what do you do?
It is National HQ that has the responsibility to conduct background investigations and verify prior service records. All of these amateur private dicks snooping around frequently due to personality conflicts, jealousy or personal vendettas need to mind their own business.
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on June 15, 2013, 04:35:38 PM
It is National HQ that has the responsibility to conduct background investigations and verify prior service records. All of these amateur private dicks snooping around frequently due to personality conflicts, jealousy or personal vendettas need to mind their own business.
Meh, your mileage may vary, but it becomes all of our business if something is askew and we ignore it. In this case, the individual apparently contradicted himself as it relates to his military service. Granted, simply asking the individual up front, face to face, is likely the easiest way to clarify things, but to conduct a due diligence check for the better of CAP and all involved is not "snooping around". Following an individual, stalking them on Facebook, or asking friends and family about him may be considered snooping around. But it's called FOIA for a reason.
One also has to be careful of their own misinterpretation of someone's statements and stories or unintentional misleading statements made by others. For instance, here is a brief statement I could make:
"When I was in the US Army I made several parachute jumps with Army Rangers and Green Berets."
How would you interpret that statement? Would some people think I was claiming to be involved in Special Forces or at the very least Airborne qualified? If you were to search my service record and look for this information, you would find out that I never went to jump school and certainly was never SF. You would think I was a liar and might start spreading that rumor. You would be wrong.
Here is a more descriptive statement.
"While I was in the Army stationed at Hunter AAF in Georgia I started skydiving at a civilian operation nearby. There were several Rangers who jumped there as well and I made several jumps with a few of them. Later, I transferred to Korea and was a member of the parachute club at Camp Humphreys. A couple of the Green Berets from the unit in Seoul would jump with us occasionally and I jumped with them as well."
They are both true statements. Oh BTW, I also jumped with Golden Knights. This statement is also open to interpretation. One was a former Knight at the time and the other became one later on. Just be careful of what you call a lie and how you pursue the situation. Now if I was intentionally being misleading to give the wrong impression, then I am being disingenuous. If however, you jump to conclusions as to what I meant, you are in the wrong.
Tread softly when you go on a campaign against someone.
For the OP: Did this person's performance suddenly drop off in the last few months or was it always subpar?
If it suddenly dropped off, what difference does his military background make?
If it was always an issue, why wasn't it looked at sooner.
I hate military fakers and if you don't do some due diligence BEFORE you select someone for a command, you only have yourself to blame. OTOH, if this person has never made a big issue of his service,why is it the main issue now? Seems like his performance as group cc should be the main issue.
Me, too.
But getting confrontational with him at this stage isn't really going to be productive. The real test is whether the higher headquarters is aware of his lapses in leadership and if there is a plan in the wings to replace him. I think that's the bigger issue and probably the most expedient way of getting rid of him because -- by what you described -- I don't think he'll be around much after he is replaced as the group commander.
As far as the Air Force service claims, you need to elaborate on your information. I have a little bit of difficulty with what you described as the contact with NPRC. You see that is done with a Standard Form 180 -- which means that your group commander had to sign the request for the records. NOBODY else has that authority, so I want to know who said that the request came back empty.
And, depending on when he served, his records may not be at NPRC but may be instead at ARPC or possibly even with the Adjutant General of the state where you live.
Quote from: flyboy1 on June 17, 2013, 03:53:07 AM
Me, too.
But getting confrontational with him at this stage isn't really going to be productive. The real test is whether the higher headquarters is aware of his lapses in leadership and if there is a plan in the wings to replace him. I think that's the bigger issue and probably the most expedient way of getting rid of him because -- by what you described -- I don't think he'll be around much after he is replaced as the group commander.
As far as the Air Force service claims, you need to elaborate on your information. I have a little bit of difficulty with what you described as the contact with NPRC. You see that is done with a Standard Form 180 -- which means that your group commander had to sign the request for the records. NOBODY else has that authority, so I want to know who said that the request came back empty.
And, depending on when he served, his records may not be at NPRC but may be instead at ARPC or possibly even with the Adjutant General of the state where you live.
It's called the freedom of information act, anyone can request the public records of service men and women.
Anyway, he was confronted on Friday. He was presented the letter from the NPRC that said they found nothing with his name attached. He refused to produce any proof and stormed out of the building.
Quote from: NCRblues on June 17, 2013, 06:22:20 AM
Quote from: flyboy1 on June 17, 2013, 03:53:07 AM
Me, too.
But getting confrontational with him at this stage isn't really going to be productive. The real test is whether the higher headquarters is aware of his lapses in leadership and if there is a plan in the wings to replace him. I think that's the bigger issue and probably the most expedient way of getting rid of him because -- by what you described -- I don't think he'll be around much after he is replaced as the group commander.
As far as the Air Force service claims, you need to elaborate on your information. I have a little bit of difficulty with what you described as the contact with NPRC. You see that is done with a Standard Form 180 -- which means that your group commander had to sign the request for the records. NOBODY else has that authority, so I want to know who said that the request came back empty.
And, depending on when he served, his records may not be at NPRC but may be instead at ARPC or possibly even with the Adjutant General of the state where you live.
It's called the freedom of information act, anyone can request the public records of service men and women.
Anyway, he was confronted on Friday. He was presented the letter from the NPRC that said they found nothing with his name attached. He refused to produce any proof and stormed out of the building.
Than that is a totally different matter and someone should begin a 2B action.
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on June 15, 2013, 05:17:15 PM
One also has to be careful of their own misinterpretation of someone's statements and stories or unintentional misleading statements made by others. For instance, here is a brief statement I could make:
"When I was in the US Army I made several parachute jumps with Army Rangers and Green Berets."
How would you interpret that statement? Would some people think I was claiming to be involved in Special Forces or at the very least Airborne qualified? If you were to search my service record and look for this information, you would find out that I never went to jump school and certainly was never SF. You would think I was a liar and might start spreading that rumor. You would be wrong.
Here is a more descriptive statement.
"While I was in the Army stationed at Hunter AAF in Georgia I started skydiving at a civilian operation nearby. There were several Rangers who jumped there as well and I made several jumps with a few of them. Later, I transferred to Korea and was a member of the parachute club at Camp Humphreys. A couple of the Green Berets from the unit in Seoul would jump with us occasionally and I jumped with them as well."
They are both true statements. Oh BTW, I also jumped with Golden Knights. This statement is also open to interpretation. One was a former Knight at the time and the other became one later on. Just be careful of what you call a lie and how you pursue the situation. Now if I was intentionally being misleading to give the wrong impression, then I am being disingenuous. If however, you jump to conclusions as to what I meant, you are in the wrong.
Tread softly when you go on a campaign against someone.
That is a very good point indeed. :clap:
Quote from: NCRblues on June 14, 2013, 04:17:09 PM
... I have known this group CC for about 4 years and he is a nice person and is pretty dedicated to CAP. He is over the weight limit for AF style, so he wears corporate with CAP awards only on it of course.
Over the past few months though, he has been slipping. Making poor choices about staff or disappearing for a few weeks at a time. Enough that people have started to notice and question things about him. ...
How long has he been a Group Commander? It is a tough assignment and most is burnt out in 24 months unless you inherit a really good Group.
Of course YMMV 8)