I've been in CAP 25 years and have never considered this an issue. If it's cold outside and you don't have an "official" CAP cold weather jacket to wear with your uniform, it's simple, throw on what keeps you warm.
I looked through 39-1 and couldn't find it via a quick search, but doesn't it say, somewhere, that civilian coats/jackets are authorized if weather calls for it. I mean, we're bubble wrapping our cadets in every other way, I figured this would be 100% legit and in writing.
Or, is this something in the GTM handbook?
Situation: Being inactive, I stopped by (in uniform) to visit my squadron to see how things are going. A nice guy, a CAP Captain and retired Army E8, was correcting a C/1st Lt on wearing a civilian jacket with his blues and told the cadet to reference 39-1. The cadet said, "but it's a safety issue"...yadda yadda. The SM was adamant about him not wearing the jacket because it wasn't an official CAP uniform jacket.
I think it's a non-issue, but wanted to quote a reg for the "new guy" who is referencing 39-1. Personally, I think it's a common sense thing, and not an issue at all.
They are cadets - safety first.
Tell him that if he wants to get everyone PROPER outerwear, he is free to do so. Otherwise he can shut up and be unhappy.
My take is that (like many other things in the 39-1) this is completely open to interpretation. For the AF-Style uniforms it never explicitly states that civilian outergarmets are authorized or permitted. For CDUs (CAP Distinctive Uniforms) it prescribes what outergarmets are allowed. The only exception to this is the AF Flight Suit and Flight Jacket combination. So from a purely regulation perspective one could say that
a) The regulation does not authorize the wear of civilian outergarmets with the AF style uniform or;
b) The regulation does not prohibit the wear of civilian outergarmets with the AF style uniform.
That being said, living in Colorado, I know at least some of our squadrons have a mandate that coats are mandatory, uniform or civilian throughout the winter months. As the cadet stated, this is a safety issue. While it would be awesome if there was enough supply for every cadet in my squadron to have an all-weather double breasted overcoat for their blues and a field jacket for their BDUs this is simply not a reality. Until CAP starts dispensing annual uniform allowances like AD does I don't see that ever becoming the reality either. The cadet is absolutely right in this case as in CAP we say, "Safety First!"
Only the outerwear specifically authorized by 39-1 is allowed with USAF-Style uniforms, civilian outerwear is prohibited at all times.
Search the word "Outergarments" it will show you that with the distinctiveness combos civilian outergarments are specifically authorized,
while with the USAF style uniforms no such authorization exists.
I agree that with cadets the emphasis is safety first, however I always made it clear they they were, in fact, in violation of the
regs, but because of their "protected" status as cadets, we would look the other way. With seniors I never afforded the same
lee-way. I also made a point to ask cadets to wear the most subdued outerwear they had to make them stand out less, but there were
always one of two that insisted on wearing a sparkly bright pink "Hello Kitty" jacket.
This KB answer indicates what is allowed:
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1190/kw/civilian%20outerwear (http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1190/kw/civilian%20outerwear)
And this one, updated last week, calls out the prohibition on mixing distinctive with USAF uniforms:
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1445/kw/civilian%20outerwear (http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1445/kw/civilian%20outerwear)
Quote from: krnlpanick on November 30, 2012, 03:21:34 PMa) The regulation does not authorize the wear of civilian outergarmets with the AF style uniform or;
b) The regulation does not prohibit the wear of civilian outergarmets with the AF style uniform.
FTFY. The reg is very clear on both. Only what is
authorized may be worn, no exceptions.
So, what I am assuming, is that while the well meaning Captain is correct, civilian jackets are not authorized, common sense would should tell you that if it's 50 degrees out and the cadet is cold, to either let him wear the jacket, or bring everyone inside.
Quote from: Stonewall on November 30, 2012, 03:44:18 PM
So, what I am assuming, is that while the well meaning Captain is correct, civilian jackets are not authorized, common sense would should tell you that if it's 50 degrees out and the cadet is cold, to either let him wear the jacket, or bring everyone inside.
50 Degrees!?
Oh wow. 50 Degrees and I'm all good in a short sleeve.
Forgot we're in different climates.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 30, 2012, 03:45:21 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on November 30, 2012, 03:44:18 PM
So, what I am assuming, is that while the well meaning Captain is correct, civilian jackets are not authorized, common sense would should tell you that if it's 50 degrees out and the cadet is cold, to either let him wear the jacket, or bring everyone inside.
50 Degrees!?
Oh wow. 50 Degrees and I'm all good in a short sleeve.
Forgot we're in different climates.
Yeah, well it's in the 70s today so a lot of the cadets that have grown up in these parts aren't particularly familiar with "colder" weather.
Quote from: Stonewall on November 30, 2012, 03:46:32 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 30, 2012, 03:45:21 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on November 30, 2012, 03:44:18 PM
So, what I am assuming, is that while the well meaning Captain is correct, civilian jackets are not authorized, common sense would should tell you that if it's 50 degrees out and the cadet is cold, to either let him wear the jacket, or bring everyone inside.
50 Degrees!?
Oh wow. 50 Degrees and I'm all good in a short sleeve.
Forgot we're in different climates.
Yeah, well it's in the 70s today so a lot of the cadets that have grown up in these parts aren't particularly familiar with "colder" weather.
Fully understandable - point still stands.
I woud LOVE to see all cadets uniform at all times, but they get the basic blues with the FCU, not the whole shabang.
Quote from: Stonewall on November 30, 2012, 03:44:18 PM
So, what I am assuming, is that while the well meaning Captain is correct, civilian jackets are not authorized, common sense would should tell you that if it's 50 degrees out and the cadet is cold, to either let him wear the jacket, or bring everyone inside.
Yes on all counts.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 30, 2012, 03:32:47 PM
FTFY. The reg is very clear on both. Only what is authorized may be worn, no exceptions.
The KB article is extremely clear - the regulation is IMHO open to interpretation. I am not finding anything in the regulation that states that Only Authorized Outgarments are permitted with the AF-Style Uniform.
Quote from: krnlpanick on November 30, 2012, 04:02:58 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 30, 2012, 03:32:47 PM
FTFY. The reg is very clear on both. Only what is authorized may be worn, no exceptions.
The KB article is extremely clear - the regulation is IMHO open to interpretation. I am not finding anything in the regulation that states that Only Authorized Outgarments are permitted with the AF-Style Uniform.
CAPM 39-1 Page 5:
1-1. Policy. CAP members are authorized to wear CAP distinctive uniforms as well as
uniforms similar to the U.S. Air Force. Civil Air Patrol uses distinctive emblems, insignia, and
badges to identify individuals wearing the AF-style uniforms as CAP members. Wear of the
AF-style uniforms, as well as the insignia, badges, and devices worn on these uniforms are as
prescribed by the Commander, CAP-USAF, with the approval of Headquarters USAF. See
Tables 1-1 through 1-3 for information on wearing the uniform, dress and appearance, where to
purchase uniform items, and grooming standards. Civil Air Patrol prescribes wear policy and the
use of CAP emblems, insignia, and badges on the CAP distinctive uniforms. Table 1-3
describes items that may be authorized by wing/region commanders. COMPLIANCE WITH
THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. Any variation from this publication is not authorized.
Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear. NOTE: CAPMart may sell items
that are not authorized for wear with the USAF–style or CAP distinctive uniforms. This
publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform
combinations as prescribed within. If it doesn't say you "can", you "can't".
There is specific verbiage in the wear tables authorizing
civilian outergarments for the distinctive uniforms. No such verbiage is published in regards to
USAF style uniform.
This is one of the more contentious issues that can come up. Usually what it comes down to is will individual commander's turn a blind eye to this particular issue for the sake of mission accomplishment and safety. Some fanatics argue both sides of the coin; but the general operating view tends to be...If you're doing something in public, in the cold weather, you need to find ways to keep your people warm and in regs. If you're doing something in 'private' in the cold, you need to do things to keep your people warm.
The letter of the law is 'If you can't do it in uniform, you probably shouldn't be doing it.'
Now there are some solutions that can meet both the letter of the law and the 'don't let 'em freeze' mentality. Namely, put all your cadets into BBDUs during events where they are going to get cold. Presto! Now they can wear whatever jackets they want/have!
There is also the issue that the uniform reg simply DOES NOT have appropriate outwear for all climates all the time. Even the Gortex or M65 field jacket (The warmest jackets we have in the uniform manual) for BDUs are not always sufficient. Speaking as someone who has lived in the Northern Tier for the last 8 years, if the USAF is breaking out the APEX parkas or even using the old-ratty 'seriously we didn't get rid of those in the 80's?!' style jackets, for wear from car to building...we probably should be wearing an equivalent.
The argument often devolves into "If you're ignoring 39-1 what else are you ignoring? Hm hm?" versus "SAFETY ABOVE ALL! LET 'EM WEAR BRIGHT PINK GLOVES IF IT KEEPS THEM WARM". Both are the fanatical extremes.
But hey...this is why we have commanders. Ultimately they're the ones that are going to get schwacked if they make a call that the commander higher up on the food chain disagrees with.
well, I have to say this shouldnt even be an issue. Whatever happened to common sense? if people are cold, they need jackets. period. end of story. I am talking about northern climes, it gets cold. I mean REALLY cold. how can people be expected to complete missions if they are freezing? it dont work. I guess the part that gets me is some level of consideration has to be given for this. people that volunteer to be in CAP pay for their uniforms, and they can be expensive. the winter jacket thing is really expensive. so I think some consideration should be given to let people stay warm. I mean this isnt like people are issue uniforms at no cost and they are just refusing to wear them, there is a money issue involved here. and just being practical.
^ Buy the proper uniform and dress in layers, that >is< actually an option.
Quote from: Blues Brother on November 30, 2012, 10:57:06 PM
well, I have to say this shouldnt even be an issue. Whatever happened to common sense? if people are cold, they need jackets. period. end of story. I am talking about northern climes, it gets cold. I mean REALLY cold. how can people be expected to complete missions if they are freezing? it dont work. I guess the part that gets me is some level of consideration has to be given for this. people that volunteer to be in CAP pay for their uniforms, and they can be expensive. the winter jacket thing is really expensive. so I think some consideration should be given to let people stay warm. I mean this isnt like people are issue uniforms at no cost and they are just refusing to wear them, there is a money issue involved here. and just being practical.
The really practical thing is to mention what the uniform requirements are, before they join, so they KNOW what is expected of them ahead of time.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 30, 2012, 03:32:47 PM
Only the outerwear specifically authorized by 39-1 is allowed with USAF-Style uniforms, civilian outerwear is prohibited at all times.
Search the word "Outergarments" it will show you that with the distinctiveness combos civilian outergarments are specifically authorized,
while with the USAF style uniforms no such authorization exists.
I agree that with cadets the emphasis is safety first, however I always made it clear they they were, in fact, in violation of the
regs, but because of their "protected" status as cadets, we would look the other way. With seniors I never afforded the same
lee-way. I also made a point to ask cadets to wear the most subdued outerwear they had to make them stand out less, but there were
always one of two that insisted on wearing a sparkly bright pink "Hello Kitty" jacket.
This KB answer indicates what is allowed:
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1190/kw/civilian%20outerwear (http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1190/kw/civilian%20outerwear)
And this one, updated last week, calls out the prohibition on mixing distinctive with USAF uniforms:
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1445/kw/civilian%20outerwear (http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1445/kw/civilian%20outerwear)
Quote from: krnlpanick on November 30, 2012, 03:21:34 PMa) The regulation does not authorize the wear of civilian outergarmets with the AF style uniform or;
b) The regulation does not prohibit the wear of civilian outergarmets with the AF style uniform.
FTFY. The reg is very clear on both. Only what is authorized may be worn, no exceptions.
Back when Col. Burrell was wing CC. (He was just before Joe King wasn't he), IL wing had a policy that in the absence of any available uniform jacket, cadets could wear an "appropriate" civilian jacket. Seniors still had to wear only authorized coats. If that survived or was ever included in any supplement, I don't know. I just know that it was announced as policy at some ES training I attended. Just saying...
Quote from: Eclipse on November 30, 2012, 11:27:05 PM
^ Buy the proper uniform ....
As Blues Brothers stated, money is a real issue with many members, both cadets and seniors. Having worked with cadets from the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum, the only uniform they owned was the basic blues issued to them upon joining, and BDUs issued by the unit. They simply could not afford to buy more. Even their insignia, name tapes, etc had to be funded through other contributors.
As to civilian outerwear, we've always handled it like my school district did concerning wearing of school uniforms: When you get inside, take the jacket and other non uniform items off.
We also required those participating in outdoor cold weather public appearances to be in proper uniform.
Quote from: ol'fido on December 01, 2012, 12:16:40 AMIf that survived or was ever included in any supplement, I don't know. I just know that it was announced as policy at some ES training I attended. Just saying...
It never was and doesn't. No one is saying it isn't common sense, but it's not part of any formal wing policies.
Quote from: Dad2-4 on December 01, 2012, 12:20:38 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 30, 2012, 11:27:05 PM
^ Buy the proper uniform ....
As Blues Brothers stated, money is a real issue with many members, both cadets and seniors. Having worked with cadets from the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum, the only uniform they owned was the basic blues issued to them upon joining, and BDUs issued by the unit. They simply could not afford to buy more. Even their insignia, name tapes, etc had to be funded through other contributors.
As to civilian outerwear, we've always handled it like my school district did concerning wearing of school uniforms: When you get inside, take the jacket and other non uniform items off.
We also required those participating in outdoor cold weather public appearances to be in proper uniform.
I agree, wear civilian jackets in cold weather outside, and remove them inside. simple. not everyone can afford all the uniforms required. even senior members. Things like house payments, car payments, heat, lights, utilities, food, diapers, etc... all take priority, and some folks just dont have the money to shell out for these extras. but they still have the desire to be involved and help out and be a part of a good organization. times are hard right now for some folks. the economy still isnt rolling, and many folks are living paycheck to paycheck.
If you have the field jacket with liner you're going to be pretty good to go for the winter in most of the country most of the time for most activities.
If you're regularly operating outside when a field jacket/liner won't cut it, then your Wing should have a supplement authorizing optional items. If your wing doesn't have that, someone just hasn't been doing their job.
Now, how much am I willing to spend for uniform outwear just to get from the car to the meeting place? Not much. I'll gut it out without a heavy jacket.
With a volunteer organization and having members from all ends of the pay scale it is at times difficult to enforce uniform regs like these. I do not think the cadet was in the wrong, it is very possible the cadet or their parents could not afford a warm dress blue coat or an A-2 Jacket, I can't. On that note i am glad I live in FL and do not need one. But if it is an issue with a commander on wearing the proper outerwear then for the cadets at least, it should be the responsibility of the squadron to supply said outerwear.
Some of those squadrons have the same issue with money. If they can issue it, great. If not, it is still the members job to have the right gear.
What about those who can not afford the proper outer wear, in a squadron with little funds? I know some people are loaded with cash or retired and have little bills or live at home with mommy and daddy. The simple solution I guess would be to make the grey and white & the BBDU the only available uniforms in CAP then we can wear what ever jacket we want.
The rules is the rules, no different then any other organization.
Seniors have a simple choice of an inexpensive uniform for most activities. If they >choose< a more complex option, or >choose< to be involved in things outside in the cold, then they need to dress both safely >and< properly.
M65s are inexpensive and perfectly suitable, especially with layers. Any duty in conditions where an M65 isn't enough is probably pushing the ORM numbers pretty hard anyway, especially if we're talking about cadets.
If the cadet or senior member doesn't have authorized uniform outerwear appropriate to the uniform they are wearing and also the weather they knew in advance they were going to experience (nobody is surprised by winter showing up), then they shouldn't be participating in the first place. The jacket thing should be a non-issue. I don't show up to the Winter GTM training if I don't have appropriate gear & clothing, so why would we expect less of our cadets at other times?
I think the "Oh, well they're just cadets and they need to be coddled and so let them wear whatever they want" actually belittles the professionalism and responsibility I've seen and come to expect from most of our awesome CAP cadets.
I'm not unaware that money plays an issue here. But BDU's aren't issued, and if cadets can figure out how to put together a BDU uniform on their own dime (BDU shirt, trousers, boots, belt, hat, and tapes at minimum) why would we accept an excuse to say "Well I didn't have the money for a field jacket, too"
If a cadet shows up in BDUs with sneakers and no good reason other than "Well, I didn't have the money for the right boots" and "But it's cold outside so I need to wear something on my feet; it's a SAFETY issue!" Would we accept that as an answer?
For our unit, we did a little fundraising and I went on eBay and over the course of a few months bought every M-65 Field Jacket in serviceable condition that I could get for under $25. We ended up with about 20-25 field jackets, owned by the squadron that 6 years later are still being used by cadets. The squadron sewed CAP tapes & the required flag patch on all of them, and sewed a loop velcro strip where the name goes. Cadets get an extra nametape with their new uniform package and a strip of adhesive hook velcro from a big roll. Slap your name and some chevrons on, and then peel it all off when it's time to hand it off to the next cadet. Has worked for us without problems for years.
Quote from: Pylon on December 01, 2012, 11:51:40 PM
I'm not unaware that money plays an issue here. But BDU's aren't issued, and if cadets can figure out how to put together a BDU uniform on their own dime (BDU shirt, trousers, boots, belt, hat, and tapes at minimum) why would we accept an excuse to say "Well I didn't have the money for a field jacket, too"
Thats pretty cold. many people simply cant afford it. There are lots of folks that are on really tough economic times these days. l know not everyone is, but many are. I know of many people who have either lost their jobs, or had to take significant pay cuts. Cadets live in the same economy as the rest of us. perhaps they cannot afford an approved winter jacket to wear with their uniform. some families got it tough these days, and sometimes kids have to use their own money to buy clothes etc as their parents are stuggling just to keep a roof over their heads and food on their table. so as an organization we just say, "oh well, too bad, you cant participate" if they cant afford a winter jacket? wow..... I just cant see the practicality in it. we arent talking about showing up in gym shoes, jeans, and a hockey jersey to go on a mission. we are talking about wearing a uniform, and a civilian winter jacket over it. is this THAT serious of an issue? really? I am somewhat surprised we are even having this discussion. I sure hope that if I am ever lost in the woods and the CAP is called to search for me, they dont sit and try to figure out if they are going to fly or not because someone has a civilian winter coat on. sometimes I sit and wonder where common sense has gone in this world.
As much as I am for being a stickler for regs, common sense dictates in some aspects. Personally for someone to cry "It's a safety issue is a cop out..."
Quote from: Blues Brother on December 02, 2012, 02:08:39 AM
Quote from: Pylon on December 01, 2012, 11:51:40 PM
I'm not unaware that money plays an issue here. But BDU's aren't issued, and if cadets can figure out how to put together a BDU uniform on their own dime (BDU shirt, trousers, boots, belt, hat, and tapes at minimum) why would we accept an excuse to say "Well I didn't have the money for a field jacket, too"
Thats pretty cold. many people simply cant afford it. There are lots of folks that are on really tough economic times these days. l know not everyone is, but many are. I know of many people who have either lost their jobs, or had to take significant pay cuts. Cadets live in the same economy as the rest of us. perhaps they cannot afford an approved winter jacket to wear with their uniform. some families got it tough these days, and sometimes kids have to use their own money to buy clothes etc as their parents are stuggling just to keep a roof over their heads and food on their table. so as an organization we just say, "oh well, too bad, you cant participate" if they cant afford a winter jacket? wow..... I just cant see the practicality in it. we arent talking about showing up in gym shoes, jeans, and a hockey jersey to go on a mission. we are talking about wearing a uniform, and a civilian winter jacket over it. is this THAT serious of an issue? really? I am somewhat surprised we are even having this discussion. I sure hope that if I am ever lost in the woods and the CAP is called to search for me, they dont sit and try to figure out if they are going to fly or not because someone has a civilian winter coat on. sometimes I sit and wonder where common sense has gone in this world.
Absolutely agree, my squadron goes and does fund raisers in order to supply uniforms. In the community we are located in it is very rural and the primary means of employment if available is dairy or citrus, which does not pay much. I believe in our organization and the EO policies, and that any one can participate. I do not believe that a cadet should have to sit out any activities simply because he/she cannot afford a CAP jacket, that thought is crazy. Yes uniform regs are important, but too when they were written many moons ago the nation was in a better spot monetarily. Face it its a recession even in cap people can not afford it, and if you in a recession proof biz you are just lucky and do not understand. This should be a non-issue and we need to focus on our missions and saving lives, not necessarily looking fabulous while we do it.
Quote from: okeecap on December 02, 2012, 02:22:23 AM
Quote from: Blues Brother on December 02, 2012, 02:08:39 AM
Quote from: Pylon on December 01, 2012, 11:51:40 PM
I'm not unaware that money plays an issue here. But BDU's aren't issued, and if cadets can figure out how to put together a BDU uniform on their own dime (BDU shirt, trousers, boots, belt, hat, and tapes at minimum) why would we accept an excuse to say "Well I didn't have the money for a field jacket, too"
Thats pretty cold. many people simply cant afford it. There are lots of folks that are on really tough economic times these days. l know not everyone is, but many are. I know of many people who have either lost their jobs, or had to take significant pay cuts. Cadets live in the same economy as the rest of us. perhaps they cannot afford an approved winter jacket to wear with their uniform. some families got it tough these days, and sometimes kids have to use their own money to buy clothes etc as their parents are stuggling just to keep a roof over their heads and food on their table. so as an organization we just say, "oh well, too bad, you cant participate" if they cant afford a winter jacket? wow..... I just cant see the practicality in it. we arent talking about showing up in gym shoes, jeans, and a hockey jersey to go on a mission. we are talking about wearing a uniform, and a civilian winter jacket over it. is this THAT serious of an issue? really? I am somewhat surprised we are even having this discussion. I sure hope that if I am ever lost in the woods and the CAP is called to search for me, they dont sit and try to figure out if they are going to fly or not because someone has a civilian winter coat on. sometimes I sit and wonder where common sense has gone in this world.
Absolutely agree, my squadron goes and does fund raisers in order to supply uniforms. In the community we are located in it is very rural and the primary means of employment if available is dairy or citrus, which does not pay much. I believe in our organization and the EO policies, and that any one can participate. I do not believe that a cadet should have to sit out any activities simply because he/she cannot afford a CAP jacket, that thought is crazy. Yes uniform regs are important, but too when they were written many moons ago the nation was in a better spot monetarily. Face it its a recession even in cap people can not afford it, and if you in a recession proof biz you are just lucky and do not understand. This should be a non-issue and we need to focus on our missions and saving lives., not necessarily looking fabulous while we do it.
FTFY. There is nothing fabulous about wearing the uniform and presenting a professional appearance doing so.
Quote from: okeecap on December 02, 2012, 02:22:23 AMThis should be a non-issue and we need to focus on our missions and saving lives, not necessarily looking fabulous while we do it.
Very well stated. Your comment made me think of the old Andy Griffith show. Barney Fife was in perfect uniform all the time and got all hung up on regulations and rules. Andy Taylor wore a casual uniform and kept peace in the town and everyone was happy. I think sometimes people lose sight of just how hard the economy has hit some families. I too believe in the CAP and its mission, and I also understand the importance of regs, but I also think there has to be a level of common sense and practicality involved. I honestly think its a tragedy to exclude a cadet from a mission that they want to participate in because they cannot afford a winter jacket that meets uniform regs.
Quote from: Blues Brother on December 02, 2012, 02:39:38 AM
Quote from: okeecap on December 02, 2012, 02:22:23 AMThis should be a non-issue and we need to focus on our missions and saving lives, not necessarily looking fabulous while we do it.
Very well stated. Your comment made me think of the old Andy Griffith show. Barney Fife was in perfect uniform all the time and got all hung up on regulations and rules. Andy Taylor wore a casual uniform and kept peace in the town and everyone was happy. I think sometimes people lose sight of just how hard the economy has hit some families. I too believe in the CAP and its mission, and I also understand the importance of regs, but I also think there has to be a level of common sense and practicality involved. I honestly think its a tragedy to exclude a cadet from a mission that they want to participate in because they cannot afford a winter jacket that meets uniform regs.
There was nothing casual about Andy's uniform he wore the uniform for his dept as did Barney and the fellow after him. And it's easy to keep the peace in town and such when it's all scripted for you. IMO in transit to and from meetings and activities depending on area if you need a coat wear it. Every effort should be made for the proper uniform coat/jacket however if its not possible and the weather dictates then let them wear something suitable. The economy is what it is right now and there are avenues to obtain stuff if people would look for them instead of waiting for it to come to them. And there is nothing saying that a cadet can't participate at the misson base if they are not allowed to go out in the field because of a uniform item.
After 71 years a civilian jacket in CAP uniform. I doubt if that is the first time and it will not be the last time that will happen.
Happy Birthday ;)
Quote from: abdsp51 on December 02, 2012, 02:46:37 AM
The economy is what it is right now and there are avenues to obtain stuff if people would look for them instead of waiting for it to come to them.
FWIW this sounds like the words of someone who probably isn't and never has been in a similar situation, especially when you are at that age. It is one thing for a 12-16 year old's parents to reach out for help on something like this but the reality is that in most cases the cadets likely aren't communicating to their parents that they need uniform pieces because they know and understand that they are in tough times. But anyone who has ever been a teenage boy or girl amongst their peers and adults that they look up to knows that reaching out for help in that situation is terrifying.
IMHO Those avenues are indeed out there though and it should be the responsibility of the peers and leaders that the cadets look up to that offer that help - we are a unit and we look out for each other.
Quote from: krnlpanick on December 02, 2012, 04:32:13 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on December 02, 2012, 02:46:37 AM
The economy is what it is right now and there are avenues to obtain stuff if people would look for them instead of waiting for it to come to them.
FWIW this sounds like the words of someone who probably isn't and never has been in a similar situation, especially when you are at that age. It is one thing for a 12-16 year old's parents to reach out for help on something like this but the reality is that in most cases the cadets likely aren't communicating to their parents that they need uniform pieces because they know and understand that they are in tough times. But anyone who has ever been a teenage boy or girl amongst their peers and adults that they look up to knows that reaching out for help in that situation is terrifying.
IMHO Those avenues are indeed out there though and it should be the responsibility of the peers and leaders that the cadets look up to that offer that help - we are a unit and we look out for each other.
Man you don't know me from Adam, I have been there before on a few occasions so I know what I am talking about. How many of your peers and leaders know who to even talk to about those resources. The resources are there and folks need to look for them and not expect for it to be handed out and given. People whether it be cadets (of a certain maturity level) and SM need to ask about the resources and for help and not just expect it.
I didn't mean to insult abdsp51 - but I too have been there, and I think the point is that they don't just expect it to be given to them, but they are afraid to ask for help and afraid to bring it up to their parents - this is where a conversation from an adult leader is beneficial.
"Hey, I noticed that you don't have a complete uniform yet - are you having trouble getting something? Maybe I can help you out! Have you checked with Wing Supply to see if they have what you need in your size?" etc. etc. etc.
Hi..
Long time, no post
Three surgeries last year, no cap, didnt post.
So I've recently been considering this one since the weather has gotten colder...
The problem is for me is
I can never find any coats, sweaters, or etc in my size for blues.
I'm not a small or large person by any means...
I hate the fact I cant find any allowed outerwear.
However because of the fact I can't
I have to wear my civilian jacket.
Quote from: krnlpanick on December 02, 2012, 04:58:24 AM
I didn't mean to insult abdsp51 - but I too have been there, and I think the point is that they don't just expect it to be given to them, but they are afraid to ask for help and afraid to bring it up to their parents - this is where a conversation from an adult leader is beneficial.
"Hey, I noticed that you don't have a complete uniform yet - are you having trouble getting something? Maybe I can help you out! Have you checked with Wing Supply to see if they have what you need in your size?" etc. etc. etc.
maybe they dont expect it. they probably dont even KNOW that that options exist for uniforms to be funded somehow. I mean how would they? I wouldnt know and I dont know. and I wouldnt expect someone to give a jacket to me. but I agree with the idea that the other members who are knowledgeable on such things should step up to help other members out and point them in the right direction.
Senior Members may NOT wear civilian outerware with the Air Force blue uniform, flight suit or, BDU field uniform. NO IF's, ANDS or BUTS! This is a very big sore spot for me as, I was the recipient of 2 CAP-USAF commanders tiraids after witnessing such a combination. For "some reason", the Air Force does not take kindly to the bastardization of the uniform (plus, it did not look well as a NB/NEC member to have to deal with it).
Cadets, on the other hand, may wear a civilian coat or jacket. Is it written down? I have no idea. My personal view is to help get proper attire for cadets so it never becomes an "issue".
Why is it wrong to expect cadets (or seniors for that matter) to buy the appropriate CAP uniforms for activities that they wish to participate in?
Its not like we're talking thousands of dollars.
Yes, there are poor cadets (and seniors) for which this may be a major burden, but lets face it, if you're that poor you probably just can't afford to be in CAP.
CAP just isn't for everybody. If it were, then the AF would be buying everybody the uniform items it expect us to wear. Since they don't they clearly expect that only those that can afford to properly uniform themselves to join. Sure, they give cadets a head start on their uniforms, but they don't provide everything.
Among other things, CAP is a hobby. Hobbies cost money and as hobbies go, even accounting for buying uniforms, CAP is incredibly inexpensive.
It's simple. If you plan to be out in severe weather, plan to have the appropriate, authorized uniform items. If unexpected weather hits then do what you must to ensure safety. That should be an exception and shouldn't be viewed as flexibility to be careless with your planning.
If money is a concern purchase BBDU's instead of BDU's so any outergarment can be worn. Squadrons that fund BDU's for cadets can just as easily fund BBDU's. Alternately those units might commit to providing the entire, reasonably necessary uniform. That's not "cold," that's following the rules we all agreed to follow when we joined and at every renewal.
To be clear, I'm not worried about a youngster dashing 100 ft from dad's car to the door of the meeting place. I think we all get that.
Yet no one addresses my point.... even with a billion dollars,
these outerwear items are impossible to find.
Quote from: Daniel on December 02, 2012, 04:53:17 PM
Yet no one addresses my point.... even with a billion dollars,
these outerwear items are impossible to find.
Seriously?
Google, as well as the local surplus store, is your friend.
http://tinyurl.com/bor6tsx (http://tinyurl.com/bor6tsx)
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_from=R40&_nkw=m65%20field%20jacket&_sop=15 (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_from=R40&_nkw=m65%20field%20jacket&_sop=15)
The only problem with the BBDU "solution" is cadets under 18 aren't authorized to wear them...so you run into the same problem.
Which brings me back to the fact that regulations need to be simplified and a uniform "uniform" adopted for everyone in our organization
Quote from: SARDOC on December 02, 2012, 05:02:03 PM
The only problem with the BBDU "solution" is cadets under 18 aren't authorized to wear them...so you run into the same problem.
Which brings me back to the fact that regulations need to be simplified and a uniform "uniform" adopted for everyone in our organization
Is that law, or is that folk law? I can't find it in 39-1, but I haven't reviewed all the ICL's and catchup memos.
CAPR 39-1 states in pertinent part:
4-1. General. Cadet members are authorized to wear the CAP utility uniform, field uniform, and blazer
combinations as desired.
With a Billion Dollars you could make what you need, and resell them to those who couldn't get them before. Buy larger ones, have them re-tailored.
Seriously? What's not available. You say you are not "large" but not "small", so.. that sounds like..pretty middle of the road.
Quote from: Daniel on December 02, 2012, 04:53:17 PM
Yet no one addresses my point.... even with a billion dollars,
these outerwear items are impossible to find.
Army Air Force Exchange Service. Ebay. Galls.
What are you looking for?
Is a field jacket (M-65) in woodland camo made for an extra small 12 year old?
Quote from: Private Investigator on December 02, 2012, 11:32:40 PM
Is a field jacket (M-65) in woodland camo made for an extra small 12 year old?
No more yes or no then any other military uniform, but I >have< seen them in extra small.
I've been watching this thread from the sidelines, and I've noticed this: There are the extremists who think that any deviation from the reg, even in regards to safety, is pretty much sin; there are the "In the middle" one who seem to approve of cadets with normal jackets, but not senior members; and there are the common-sense people who think that if someone doesn't have a per-reg jacket, then wear it, no matter who it is.
I believe that I would be the latter of the three. I was certainly not born with a silver spoon in my mouth, and I search for said silver spoon every where I go. So, per some people's thinking, I shouldn't be in CAP because I don't have the money for it. But why? Why alienate a member who's willing to give it his/her all, just for reg's sake? I mean, of course, if anyone were to wear a bright pink Hello Kitty jacket(The only positive attribute being its brightness. Perfect for SAR!), then that's kinda ridiculous. But if someone simply wears a conservative jacket when they're outside of his squadron in the cold, then I would certainly hope that no one would dare take away his jacket. I myself am unable to procure an M-65, so just wear a plain leather jacket in its place if the need arises. No one has said a thing about it, as it should be. Of course, I understand that getting a per-reg M-65 is important, and I get it. But unless someone feels like paying for it, then feel free to watch me walk away in my leather. I wouldn't use the M-65 enough(Per calender year) to validate the cost.
I guess I'm old school in my thinking. Either you're in uniform or you don't wear it. However, I've come to realize that this attitude no longer has a place. WIWAC, we all had uniforms, and all the accessories that went with it. We all had field jackets, parkas, or whatever, mainly because our unit CC was a scrounger par ex. No one showed up at an activity out of uniform, because we all had what we needed.
That was fine in a unit of maybe 20-25 cadets and 8 or 9 seniors.
My current unit has 56 seniors and 74 cadets on the roster. I'm not going to get into the whole "what uniform do you wear" because it's a tired topic. The cadets all have a basic set of BDUs and blues. As far as coats, some have field jackets, some have hunter camoflage, some have civilian jackets, but aside from a few occasions, the weather here is such that we really don't need coats most of the time. Outdoor activities are few and far between during the winter months, except for our ground team school, and most of those cadets and seniors who are serious about ES and ground ops are serious about uniformity.
Our area is weird. Aside from Walmart its various support mechanisms, jobs are pretty blue collar. A few of our cadets are on some sort of scholarship and most are home schooled. Point is, varied economic circumstances dictate what the cadets' parents can afford. In a few cases, the cadets who have jobs after school spend a lot on their uniforms and items. A few parents go all out and buy their kids whatever they need. And in a lot of cases, we end up footing the bill for some activities and uniform items, not out of any sense of charity as such but because we want them to fit in.
Civilian coats with CAP uniforms? What are they going to do, fine us? Give us an Article 15? Send us to Afghanistan? If a cadet is cold, yes, it's kind of his or her fault for not coming prepared with anything other than their hot pink Hello Kitty hoodie, but am I going to stand by quoting regs while we haul him or her off for frostbite? Heck no. I will give them the coat off my back if need be. I'm not saying regs be [darn]ed when it comes to safety. I am saying that if that's all they got, then that's all they got, and I will take the heat if someone complains.
I am not a fashion aficionado by any means, and I am not into howdy kitty jackets or whatever they are called. I am assuming thats some high price fashion brand that the Kardashians wear. but if folks cant afford winter coats, whatever works in cold weather, IMO. You cant effectively operate a cold weather SAR if your cold and chattering your teeth trying to stay warm. I joined CAP to use my skills to help folks out with SAR. I didnt join to be a Frank Burns running around trying to uniform police people like Hawkeye Pierce. I am just a small cog in a wheel, but if someone is willing to go out in freezing temps to search for a lost hunter/camper/hiker I am not about to go criticizing their winter wardrobe, I would just be glad they showed up to help find someone who may go into hypothermia and die if it werent for folks like us searching for them.
Quote from: Levi Lockling on December 03, 2012, 07:21:51 AM
I myself am unable to procure an M-65, so just wear a plain leather jacket in its place if the need arises. No one has said a thing about it, as it should be.
At a minimum someone
should have said something about you being out of uniform. It is not "as it should be" that it has gone un-noted.
Just because no one has dressed you down for it doesn't mean that it is ok to do. Unfortunately, most uniform "violations" go uncorrected in CAP because everyone is too afraid to tell someone that what they're doing is wrong, even those that are supposedly leaders.
This is not a safety issue. It is an issue of folks not obtaining the proper uniform because they think they can get away with it, and it appears that they often do.
Quote from: Blues Brother on December 03, 2012, 12:41:18 PM
I would just be glad they showed up to help find someone who may go into hypothermia and die if it werent for folks like us searching for them.
The "you're lucky I showed up at all" attitude is routinely cited as one of CAP's challenges.
Quote from: wuzafuzz on December 02, 2012, 05:08:59 PM
Quote from: SARDOC on December 02, 2012, 05:02:03 PM
The only problem with the BBDU "solution" is cadets under 18 aren't authorized to wear them...so you run into the same problem.
Which brings me back to the fact that regulations need to be simplified and a uniform "uniform" adopted for everyone in our organization
Is that law, or is that folk law? I can't find it in 39-1, but I haven't reviewed all the ICL's and catchup memos.
CAPR 39-1 states in pertinent part:
4-1. General. Cadet members are authorized to wear the CAP utility uniform, field uniform, and blazer
combinations as desired.
Got me...I guess that was folk law. I know that the Aviator Uniform is only authorized for 18 and above for those outside standards. I was under the impression that cadets under 18 were required to wear air force style uniforms.
Quote from: Levi Lockling on December 03, 2012, 07:21:51 AM
I've been watching this thread from the sidelines, and I've noticed this: There are the extremists who think that any deviation from the reg, even in regards to safety, is pretty much sin; there are the "In the middle" one who seem to approve of cadets with normal jackets, but not senior members; and there are the common-sense people who think that if someone doesn't have a per-reg jacket, then wear it, no matter who it is.
Which part of "uniform" is not clear?
Do you think that the other agencies we work with, military, LEA, FD, even the local EMA are allowed to just "come as you are"?
Part of CAP is accepting the
responsibility for adhering to the higher standard, that's the price of the
opportunities CAP affords.
We have a constant background complaint of being taken seriously, yet these simple, baseline concepts are viewed as somehow optional.
Also regularly missed is no matter where you set the bar, there will always be a group who miss the mark, some by accident or circumstance,
and some taking advantage of the situation. In this case, if you set the bar as "the uniform regulations are sacrosanct, deviation is not allowed,
and in the rare case they are necessary because of emergency circumstances, they are a clear exception, not the norm..." then no one is
confused and everyone knows that at some point they have to comply. Otherwise you will have some who feel there's "no reason to bother..."
And then we are where we are, literally.
Try the "come as you are approach" to a high school sports team. If you want to play, you get the uniform. No uniform, no play, no exceptions.
People are free to make choices, and in this day and age, the average kid is carrying a smart phone, has 2-3 game consoles at home, and
a cable bill that looks like a mortgage. In those cases, I have little sympathy for the inability to somehow find a $25 jacket.
Quote from: Blues Brother on December 03, 2012, 12:41:18 PM
I am not a fashion aficionado by any means, and I am not into howdy kitty jackets or whatever they are called.
Hello Kitty. Japanese anime (cartoon) that's been around for a great number of years and is quite popular among teenage girls. And some guys. But that's not important right now. >:D
Quote from: Eclipse on December 03, 2012, 03:32:57 PM
Try the "come as you are approach" to a high school sports team. If you want to play, you get the uniform. No uniform, no play, no exceptions.
People are free to make choices, and in this day and age, the average kid is carrying a smart phone, has 2-3 game consoles at home, and
a cable bill that looks like a mortgage. In those cases, I have little sympathy for the inability to somehow find a $25 jacket.
Yeah...never could figure out people who complain they can't afford to feed their kids or are behind on their rent/mortgage and are still able to afford multiple tattoos, the newest smartphone, HDTV/cable, an XBOX, high speed internet and $150 shoes. Priorities. Gotta love them.
As the originator of this thread, I'll chime in on my thoughts and experiences...
Thoughts: Ideally I would absolutely LOVE to have everyone wearing appropriate uniforms IAW 39-1, but I'm a realist and understand that M-65s or Gore-tex jackets are not always free or available, nor can a lot of people afford them. I have always asked members to dress warmly underneath their uniforms if possible, so as to not require an outer garment.
We had 30 cadets at the meeting the other night and there is no way every cadet could come up with an M-65, it's just not feasible or realistic. So, in that case, I would reluctantly allow cadets to violate 39-1 and stay warm. Obviously, if you're one of those fortunate squadrons with a large enough indoor area to house everyone, then there is absolutely no need to be outside in the first place. We do not fall into that category.
Experiences: As a cadet I did not have an OD fatigue jacket. In fact, my first set of fatigues (yes, the pickle suit) came in short sleeve. That's right, people, I had short-sleeve fatigues (surpluss from the AF). What jacket did I use? I used my dad's Nomex flight jacket, with velcro and all. But I did put CAP patches on the jacket to make it more legit, but it was absolutely against regs. It was either that, or not participate. That's all there was to it. I was scrawny and 14, and if I had purchased an M-65 at the time, if they even made them in my size, I would have out-grown it by the following "cold" season and it would have been wasted.
As a senior member in DCWG, where it snows and gets into the teens during the winter, we simply allowed cadets to wear what kept them warm. Keep in mind, people were wearing Gore-Tex jackets long before they were ever authorized in CAP. LOOOOOOONNNNGGGG before... So even though we had at least half of our squadron wearing the GI issued ECWCS parka (http://s.ecrater.com/stores/188883/4eaacb85de4f3_188883n.jpg), they too were not authorized for wear in CAP. So you still had the silly argument of "do you wear a civilian Hello Kitty jacket, ECWCS parka, or force everyone to buy the M-65?"
I will say this, that there is a difference between a nightly meeting and allowing someone to wear their civilian jacket for an hour or two and showing up to a weekend activity. I am definitely okay with allowing civilian outer garments at a meeting, but if we were headed to a military base on the weekend, I'd figure out another way to keep everyone in uniform.
My wife is a small fry and has an extra woodland Gore-Tex, so I'd let a cadet borrow that, or even her light weight blues jacket (for a female, of course).
Quote from: Eclipse on December 03, 2012, 03:32:57 PM
Do you think that the other agencies we work with, military, LEA, FD, even the local EMA are allowed to just "come as you are"?
I have seen it many times. depending on the agency, the area, and the climate, I have seen that in emergency response drills or real SAR missions. local SAR teams often have no uniforms at all, and always wear civies. the Fire dept often wear wear civie outergarments. they dont wear fire turn outs on a SAR mission. they want to stay warm so they wear their winter civies. usually hunting hear. I have even seen police wear a civie jacket if out on a SAR call. often times in the woods they wear some type of bright orange clothing, and when its cold that usually means hunting jackets, etc.... they arent doing uniform inspections in the woods at 11pm while looking for a lost hunter. they are trying to stay warm so they can be out there as long as it takes to find them. No, I havent seen hello kitty jackets, but its very often to see hunting jackets, or just civie winter clothes, snow suits, ski suits, snow mobile suits, etc... worn by all the agencies out there. fire, police, EMT, local SAR, etc... Saw a sheriff wearing a polaris snowmobile jacket one time. kept him warm and that was what was important at that time. plus his bright blue & white polaris jacket was FAR easier to see in low light than the standard brown sheriff jacket. IMO, that IS a safety issue.
CAP is supposed to be more than a local SAR team, volunteer fire department, or a group of vigilante searchers in their NFL jackets.
You may well be in a rural area, but I can assure you that in municipalities with structured fire and police services, you're not going to see them in anything but a prescribed uniform jacket (and we're not talking about plain clothes here).
Further, we are a paramilitary organization that echoes a parent service, which means we wear what is authorized, and nothing more. That's part of the deal.
This has nothing to do with safety. "Safety" is an excuse that people try to use when they can't comply with the rules, or want to wear something hardkewl that's not on the list. FWIW, the ANSI II vest or jacket now required will be more visible then a white polar fleece, so its irrelevant.
"Field expediency" is what you do in a real-world with lives or property at stake when you did not properly prepare for the duty, or are confronted with unexpected circumstances. They are not an excuse, nor even a valid reason for normal-duty operations or behavior.
We've already allowed that cadets get the exceptions because of their status and the seniors' "loco parentis". That doesn't make it right, or allow members, especially seniors, to dictate the uniform based on their personal closet or "safety". Especially for seniors, because for them it is 100% choice.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 03, 2012, 07:53:05 PM
CAP is supposed to be more than a local SAR team, volunteer fire department, or a group of vigilante searchers in their NFL jackets.
the people I was referring to are not vigilantes. they are police officers. nothing vigilante about that.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 03, 2012, 07:53:05 PM
This has nothing to do with safety. "Safety" is an excuse that people try to use when they can't comply with the rules, or want to wear something hardkewl that's not on the list. FWIW, the ANSI II vest or jacket now required will be more visible then a white polar fleece, so its irrelevant.
So I cannot wear a MC Hammer outfit for terms of safety? :(
Man, some of my cadets have a hard time just getting money for dues!
If we can't issue a jacket, how can we require it?
What would you rather have, more cadets, or cadets in regulation outerwear?
In the Michigan Wing, cadet airmen wear what they can find. Senior cadets start driving and purchasing SAR gear, M-65 BDUs, and purchasing blues outerwear.
Most cadets don't stay for a year! The ones that do, start to put their money into their uniforms.
A commander who doesn't turn a blind eye to this is short-sighted. Maybe fund raisers are the way to go?
Quote from: Lab Lover on December 04, 2012, 05:35:05 AM
Man, some of my cadets have a hard time just getting money for dues!
If we can't issue a jacket, how can we require it?
What would you rather have, more cadets, or cadets in regulation outerwear?
In the Michigan Wing, cadet airmen wear what they can find. Senior cadets start driving and purchasing SAR gear, M-65 BDUs, and purchasing blues outerwear.
Most cadets don't stay for a year! The ones that do, start to put their money into their uniforms.
A commander who doesn't turn a blind eye to this is short-sighted. Maybe fund raisers are the way to go?
1) 39-1 states what is appropriate and what is not. And it states that it cannot be made mandatory unless provided.
2) Both! I'll take a handful of cadets who wear the uniform properly and put forth the effort to obtain the items stated in 39-1 that a bunch of cadets who don't and look rag tag.
3) Sounds like a retention issue. Maybe you are not doing enough to stimulate their interest in the program/s. And I would applaud those who do put their own money for they will learn a valuable lesson/s
There is the manual and then there is the commanders decision. Members need to put forth the effort to obtain the proper uniform items through the various resources available. Those that are near an AF base check to see if you can get access to the thrift shop and/or the Airman's Attic. Check the dreaded evil bay as some have put it, check here check the local bookoo.com again if you are close to a AF base. IMO all avenues and resources should be checked before throwing in the towel and wearing whatever. Plenty of members complain about not being close enough to Ma Blue and that Ma Blue needs to fix the relationship when ultimately we need to take those steps and one of those is the proper wear of the uniform with the proper items. Now ultimately if it is that **** cold then wear what is needed to stay warm but as a last resort and not the first.
I found the windbreaker for the blues uniform at bookoo.com, and there is even a military uniform board similiar to here to advertise for uniform items.
a windbreaker? I didnt even realize that CAP had a windbreaker available.
The windbreaker AKA AF Lightweight Blue Jacket.
Quote from: abdsp51 on December 04, 2012, 01:31:49 PM
The windbreaker AKA AF Lightweight Blue Jacket.
(https://uwacadweb.uwyo.edu/EAC/Dress%20and%20Appearance/Lightblue.JPG)
Yes. CAP can be expensive. It sucks when money is a barrier to participation. But as much as people want to participate and have the best of intentions, sometimes without financial assistance from outside that just isn't possible. Does the school football team let the kid play who couldn't afford the proper protective gear but shows up to practice with a bike helmet and syrofoam padding in his jersey? It sucks when money is an issue. I'm not denying that. And I certainly wouldn't want to see anyone who truly wanted to be in CAP be denied that opportunity because of financial circumstances.
My original point stands though. BDU's aren't issued either. Cadets somehow figure out how to put together (most often on their own dime) a regulation BDU shirt, trousers, belt, cap, leather boots, and nametapes so why do we draw the line of acceptable limits at a field jacket? Why is it not acceptable for cadets whose parents could better use the money elsewhere to just show up in BDUs with no cover, a leather dress belt, white socks, and New Balance sneakers? I mean, they want to participate. They did put together a blouse with half of the required insignia, after all. Shouldn't we just be grateful they tried and that they showed up at all? Wouldn't we be insensitive, cold, and insuffrable people if we didn't just let the cadet with a BDU top and ABU pants and converse sneakers participate (because that's all he had)? No. What IS insensitive and un-cool is allowing these members who want to participate to have to feel like second-class citizens wearing their civilian outerwear. If a cadet couldn't afford boots in our unit, wouldn't most of us pitch in to get him or her a pair of boots?
I am not advocating just leaving out members who don't have the fiscal resources to participate in CAP in an appropriate, regulatory way. Your war cry here in favor of reg-breaking civilian jackets is that it would be unjust to these well-meaning people. I agree.
So instead of seeing a member with fiscal difficulties who doesn't have the resources to properly participate in the program and just turning our heads away from their situation, pretending its not a problem and pretending we're not breaking cut & dry clear regulations, why don't we do what leaders would do in this situation: help them; find a solution?
I explained in a previous post how my squadron responded to this exact same situation: many cadets and members without the resources and means to properly outfit their sons & daughters head-to-toe for CAP. Understandable. Completely understandable. I'm not insensitive to this. So in response we held some pancake breakfast fundraisers at the airport. We got some donations from Walmart, and the EAA, and local businessmen. And we turned around and invested in a whole stock of second-hand M65 field jackets (as well as BDU boots, dress shoes, BDU clothing and parts, and also later a whole slew of lightweight jackets and service coats). Our squadron is able to issue every cadet who needs one a field jacket and/or a lightweight blues jacket. That's what leaders do. They don't ignore the issue. The find a way to fix it. So why isn't our response to pass the hat, or fundraise from the local community, or ask for a corporate sponsor, or to comb through Goodwill stores for military surplus? People don't because ignoring the problem is easier.
Don't take the lazy way out. Be a leader.
Passing the hat can have mixed results, and access to BDU's may be limited by the member's area. Several years ago I said that we need to have at least one corporate uniform that that anyone and everyone could wear, and could be put together at Walmart, Kmart, Sears, etc. for ~$50. In the 80's, the USCG had a working uniform that consisted of a navy blue Dickies brand shirt and pants with a navy blue web belt, black shoes or boots, navy blue or organizational ball cap, and appropriate tapes & insignia. Something along those lines would seem to solve the access and cost problems at the same time. Wear with "suitable civilian outerwear, matching navy blue or black is preferred". JMHO
I'll throw in another issue. I was planning a trip to wing supply, if any of my cadets needed anything. A couple announcements at meetings, a couple of emails, over a two week period to find out what they needed and what sizes. The response - Zip. Zero. Nada. As our sqdn has limited storage space, I am not going to just pick up stuff from wing and hope someone will want it. We turned a bunch of stuff in we didn't have room for AFTER three weeks of letting the members pick through it. About 100 pounds of bdu and blues uniforms.
So there the cadets do bear some responsibility for obtaining the correct uniforms, especially if they aren't going to bother to respond when free items are offered.
Quote from: Pylon on December 04, 2012, 04:25:51 PM
Yes. CAP can be expensive. It sucks when money is a barrier to participation. But as much as people want to participate and have the best of intentions, sometimes without financial assistance from outside that just isn't possible. Does the school football team let the kid play who couldn't afford the proper protective gear but shows up to practice with a bike helmet and syrofoam padding in his jersey? It sucks when money is an issue. I'm not denying that. And I certainly wouldn't want to see anyone who truly wanted to be in CAP be denied that opportunity because of financial circumstances.
My original point stands though. BDU's aren't issued either. Cadets somehow figure out how to put together (most often on their own dime) a regulation BDU shirt, trousers, belt, cap, leather boots, and nametapes so why do we draw the line of acceptable limits at a field jacket? Why is it not acceptable for cadets whose parents could better use the money elsewhere to just show up in BDUs with no cover, a leather dress belt, white socks, and New Balance sneakers? I mean, they want to participate. They did put together a blouse with half of the required insignia, after all. Shouldn't we just be grateful they tried and that they showed up at all? Wouldn't we be insensitive, cold, and insuffrable people if we didn't just let the cadet with a BDU top and ABU pants and converse sneakers participate (because that's all he had)? No. What IS insensitive and un-cool is allowing these members who want to participate to have to feel like second-class citizens wearing their civilian outerwear. If a cadet couldn't afford boots in our unit, wouldn't most of us pitch in to get him or her a pair of boots?
I am not advocating just leaving out members who don't have the fiscal resources to participate in CAP in an appropriate, regulatory way. Your war cry here in favor of reg-breaking civilian jackets is that it would be unjust to these well-meaning people. I agree.
So instead of seeing a member with fiscal difficulties who doesn't have the resources to properly participate in the program and just turning our heads away from their situation, pretending its not a problem and pretending we're not breaking cut & dry clear regulations, why don't we do what leaders would do in this situation: help them; find a solution?
I explained in a previous post how my squadron responded to this exact same situation: many cadets and members without the resources and means to properly outfit their sons & daughters head-to-toe for CAP. Understandable. Completely understandable. I'm not insensitive to this. So in response we held some pancake breakfast fundraisers at the airport. We got some donations from Walmart, and the EAA, and local businessmen. And we turned around and invested in a whole stock of second-hand M65 field jackets (as well as BDU boots, dress shoes, BDU clothing and parts, and also later a whole slew of lightweight jackets and service coats). Our squadron is able to issue every cadet who needs one a field jacket and/or a lightweight blues jacket. That's what leaders do. They don't ignore the issue. The find a way to fix it. So why isn't our response to pass the hat, or fundraise from the local community, or ask for a corporate sponsor, or to comb through Goodwill stores for military surplus? People don't because ignoring the problem is easier.
Don't take the lazy way out. Be a leader.
It's funny how I see myself saying the exact same thing about 10 years ago (at age 30) and in a different wing/location.
Let me go back to the original situation that started this thread. In my honest opinion, this should NOT have happened. First, it was NOT that cold. The cadet officer is probably 16 or 17 and not a 5 ft kid. There were other, much younger/smaller cadets wearing short-sleeve shirts. And I believe this cadet officer was even wearing a long-sleeve shirt since he was wearing a tie. IMHO, the cadet did not need the jacket and was either showing off his new Real Tree hunting jacket or his uniform was jacked up underneath and was embarassed to show it.
As for the SM who questioned the cadet, he is new to CAP (about a year) and a retired Army E8 (combat arms type) of the Vietnam Era sort. Crusty, a little harsh perhaps, but I like that in a way. Reminds me of my cadet days where we had WWII through Vietnam vets as senior members. They were as hard as woodpecker lips!
Here in FLWG, it does not get that cold for very long. I was camping last weekend (Fri to Sat) and wore a sweatshirt at night and shorts during the day. Yes, it's December!!!! So IMHO, when we wear blues just once a month, there will likely be 3, maybe 4, and a max of 5 times PER YEAR that a GI Issue blues jacket would come into play. BDUs are A LOT easy to stay warm in since they fit loosely (not tucked in), are long sleeved, and are easy to dress in layers underneath.
Point: It would be a waste of money to buy a 14 year old cadet an official jacket to wear with his blues in Florida that he likely could not fit into the following year, and for only a maximum of 5 opportunities to wear it since the weather doesn't call for a lot of cold gear.
In DCWG we lived near Bolling and Andrews AFB and got a crap-ton of surplus uniforms. More than we knew what to do with. Every cadet had service dress and many had the lightweight blue jacket. And EVERYONE had either the field jacket or ECWCS parka/pants for BDUs. Additionally, it was COLD a lot longer up there so even if someone did buy cold weather uniform items they at least got their use out of them.
As a parent (unlike 10 years ago), I would be hard pressed to buy my kid a uniform jacket that he/she was only going to use a handful of times. Especially if it costs more than $50. And I can afford it.
Let's look at the possibility of an overnight bivouac in the winter. Even here in FL it gets pretty cold, especially at night. You're removed from the public's eye and conducting ground team training. It gets down to 20 degrees and a cadet pulls out their civilian North Face jacket to stay warm. Send them home? Let them wear it? Or do you conduct a pre-bivouac inspection to make sure only uniforms IAW 39-1 will be brought out to the field?
I am not advocating that members simply
"wear what they got", I am not a fan of
having to say that at all. But I say BE A LEADER and choose the right option for the situation. 10 years ago I had a lot more time on my hands and would have been glad to spend time raising money or somehow acquiring uniform items for a few cadets who need something like boots or a jacket. But today, I've got my own kids in Cub Scouts, Karate, Dance; I'm in the Guard, work 50 hours a week, and have all the responsibilities of a home owner (lawn, cleaning, laundry) and, as most of us CAP vets know, you're often one of the few (1 or 2) that are directly involved with the cadet program in a squadron. Not to mention, times are tough and people don't have the money/resources they had 10 years ago.
I even stand by my own standard that cadets don't graduate T-Flight (8 week basic cadet training) until their BDUs are complete. People ask how can I make this a requirement. And I tell them I just do. And it works! But this is where I would identify which of the newer cadets may have financial issues and I (or the squadron) need to step in. T-Flight will generally have between 5 and 10 new cadets so you can make it happen a little easier.
But when it comes to jackets when it's cold, I would absolutely encourage and try to procure appropriate uniform items for all conditions. However, I will not lose sleep over a cadet that shows up to a meeting with a civilian jacket and wears it for an hour.
Quote from: Stonewall on December 04, 2012, 03:32:54 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on December 04, 2012, 01:31:49 PM
The windbreaker AKA AF Lightweight Blue Jacket.
(https://uwacadweb.uwyo.edu/EAC/Dress%20and%20Appearance/Lightblue.JPG)
OK gotcha. I get it now. I was envisioning something like a pullover you see a football coach wearing and I didnt recall seeing that in 39-1.
Quote from: Blues Brother on December 04, 2012, 07:33:47 PMOK gotcha. I get it now. I was envisioning something like a pullover you see a football coach wearing and I didnt recall seeing that in 39-1.
See page 75 for the official CAP windbreaker. Not authorized with blues.
(http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/medium/0000000CAP5100_MED.jpg)
Can be customized with name and rating.
Honestly, nothing makes me irks me more in this world than seeing someone so grossly out of reg as mixing civies with our Blues. If you don't have the money, that's unfortunate...deal with it. Deal with out disrespecting my uniform. Countless men that have given their life to this country have worn this uniform so you have no right to disrespect the uniform. The importance of professionalism cannot be understated.
At FLWG winter encampment this year we allowed doolies to wear civilian jackets with their blues.
It looked horrible. At least some of them made the effort to buy jackets that matched their blues. But some of them..... Seriously?
Quote from: Airman De Ruiter on January 13, 2013, 04:08:51 AM
Honestly, nothing makes me irks me more in this world than seeing someone so grossly out of reg as mixing civies with our Blues. If you don't have the money, that's unfortunate...deal with it. Deal with out disrespecting my uniform. Countless men that have given their life to this country have worn this uniform so you have no right to disrespect the uniform. The importance of professionalism cannot be understated.
Lighten up buddy. This is a topic about cadets not having the proper jackets not some SM. And judging by your name trust me this was my uniform and several other AD/Ret AF types on this board long before it was yours. Chill it with the tude and save the whole thing for legitimate wanna bees that actively disgrace the uniform.
Quote from: abdsp51 on January 13, 2013, 04:35:39 AM
Lighten up buddy. This is a topic about cadets not having the proper jackets not some SM. And judging by your name trust me this was my uniform and several other AD/Ret AF types on this board long before it was yours. Chill it with the tude and save the whole thing for legitimate wanna bees that actively disgrace the uniform.
I'm sorry if I'm coming off as hostile, but it's may belief that strictly following the rules is one of the few ways we retain good military order. With all the work the Air Force has put into trying to maintain a professional appearance, there are Cadets and Senior Members destroying that in one fell swoop and it's just really upsetting. I physically die a little on the inside every time I see it.
Quote from: Airman De Ruiter on January 13, 2013, 05:37:52 AMI physically die a little on the inside every time I see it.
Well, then.. CAP might be a life threatening thing. After all, there is power in numbers. Everything adds up. ...
There are bigger things to worry about on that level.
1) Civil Air Patrol is not in way shape or fashion the military so therefore military order is a moot point.
2) Cadets and SM with uniform violations are easy to correct which depending on the area is heavily needed.
3) Make sure you wear YOUR uniform right and be a good influence on those you can influence and directly/indirectly impact.
If you are a cadet as you potentially your screen name and sig block seems to indicate do be aware that things here can follow you to your unit. If you are an AF component then you need to really lighten there are bigger things to worry about.
Quote from: a2capt on January 13, 2013, 05:51:26 AM
Quote from: Airman De Ruiter on January 13, 2013, 05:37:52 AMI physically die a little on the inside every time I see it.
Well, then.. CAP might be a life threatening thing. After all, there is power in numbers. Everything adds up. ...
There are bigger things to worry about on that level.
Agreed. The uniform issues might cause me a little bit of ag, but it is not worth dying internally over.
Quote from: Airman De Ruiter on January 13, 2013, 04:08:51 AM
Honestly, nothing makes me irks me more in this world than seeing someone so grossly out of reg as mixing civies with our Blues. If you don't have the money, that's unfortunate...deal with it. Deal with out disrespecting my uniform. Countless men that have given their life to this country have worn this uniform so you have no right to disrespect the uniform. The importance of professionalism cannot be understated.
Lighten up, Francis.
Your zeal is commendable, but it's a little much when it comes to this subject. That's okay. There's nothing wrong with being passionate about something, but there are times when people need a "filter" or to practice restraint. As said before, wear and maintain your uniform properly. You can serve as an example to others and quite possible inspire them to aim higher (no pun intended). You can offer help when appropriate, but do so tactfully. Take that zeal, tune it a little bit, apply it evenly to all that you do in CAP, and leave any attitude at the door. You should be fine.
He's been spoken to about that post man..
Quote from: Airman De Ruiter on January 13, 2013, 05:37:52 AM
I'm sorry if I'm coming off as hostile, but it's may belief that strictly following the rules is one of the few ways we retain good military order. With all the work the Air Force has put into trying to maintain a professional appearance, there are Cadets and Senior Members destroying that in one fell swoop and it's just really upsetting. I physically die a little on the inside every time I see it.
In that case I hope your not in the squadron that the cadet wore the pink Hello Kitty jacket then.
Quote from: Blues Brother on January 13, 2013, 08:49:30 PMIn that case I hope your not in the squadron that the cadet wore the pink Hello Kitty jacket then.
Oh that would be one heck of a CAPF 78.. ... >:D
Quote from: abdsp51 on January 13, 2013, 04:59:30 PM
He's been spoken to about that post man..
Yes. Thank you, man. However, this time he was provided with guidance in a constructive manner, not just a lashing. If you are a senior member, or have ever been a supervisor in the military, you should know better. So, take a step back, don't judge people by their screen name, and "chill it with the tude", man. ;)
He was provided with corrective feedback and there was no tongue lashing. Without a clear cut way of knowing either or what his status is/was it was generic. No need to beat the poster anymore than needed, his zeal and such was addressed and didn't need to be addressed again. And for the record I am both a SM and a Mil supervisor and quite effective at both.
Quote from: abdsp51 on January 14, 2013, 12:04:12 AM
He was provided with corrective feedback and there was no tongue lashing. Without a clear cut way of knowing either or what his status is/was it was generic. No need to beat the poster anymore than needed, his zeal and such was addressed and didn't need to be addressed again. And for the record I am both a SM and a Mil supervisor and quite effective at both.
Well for the record, that makes two of us. You have your style and I have mine. Enough said. Carry on.
Quote from: Texas Raiders on January 14, 2013, 04:54:30 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on January 14, 2013, 12:04:12 AM
He was provided with corrective feedback and there was no tongue lashing. Without a clear cut way of knowing either or what his status is/was it was generic. No need to beat the poster anymore than needed, his zeal and such was addressed and didn't need to be addressed again. And for the record I am both a SM and a Mil supervisor and quite effective at both.
Well for the record, that makes two of us. You have your style and I have mine. Enough said. Carry on.
Yeah, but he knew enough to keep it private. What's that line? "Praise in public, correct in private."
And for the record, I've been in CAP for 38 years and retired from the Air Force Reserve after 31-1/2 years.
Quote from: PHall on January 14, 2013, 06:28:29 AM
What's that line? "Praise in public, correct in private."
What I always try to do...not always successfully.
Quote from: Airman De Ruiter on January 13, 2013, 05:37:52 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on January 13, 2013, 04:35:39 AM
Lighten up buddy. This is a topic about cadets not having the proper jackets not some SM. And judging by your name trust me this was my uniform and several other AD/Ret AF types on this board long before it was yours. Chill it with the tude and save the whole thing for legitimate wanna bees that actively disgrace the uniform.
I'm sorry if I'm coming off as hostile, but it's may belief that strictly following the rules is one of the few ways we retain good military order. With all the work the Air Force has put into trying to maintain a professional appearance, there are Cadets and Senior Members destroying that in one fell swoop and it's just really upsetting. I physically die a little on the inside every time I see it.
Dear De Ruiter,
Seriously, you "physically die" a little when you see Cadets and Seniors "destroying" the professional appearance of the Air Force? Kid, breath deeply into a paper bag a bit. It'll be okay. I've been wearing an Air Force uniform in one form (CAP since 1977) or another (USAF 1983-2005) for a loooong time. Currently, it is 13 degrees Fahrenheit outside here in Omaha, and it is 6 degrees F in Beatrice, where my unit meets. I have 15 cadets, none of whom have parents who are ex-USAF. Yes, I have a USAF cold weather parka, and an M65 woodland camoflage field jacket and liner, and 4 green flight jackets (2 winter, 2 summer) and a brown leather jacket, and nomex gloves, and leather gloves, etc. etc. etc. Am I concerned with my cadets wearing civilian jackets to CAP? No, never. I'm thrilled they have made the effort to come out at 6:45 on a Tuesday night to participate in OUR program. Am I afraid that the general public is going to get a bad impression of the Air Force? No. Show me your kid home playing video games, or wearing his trousers down to his knee caps with his boxer shorts sticking out, and I'll show you MY cadets learning about Aerospace, discipline, drill and ceremonies, and the Air Force way of life. Should I let MY cadets get hypothermia because they don't own a parka? Is my cadet NCOIC, who has passed every time she has tested every 56 days LESS professional because she doesn't own an M65 Field Jacket and liner? FYI--when I rejoined CAP last February after a 10 year hiatus, I spent about $1500 purchasing a new service dress jacket, 3 pairs of blue trousers, 2 new sets of BDU's, a pair of brand new Corcoran jump boots, several sets of grade insignia, 3 sets of custom embroidered ribbons from Taiwan, cadet programs/aerospace education/professional development badges, custom made white on ultramarine blue Chief Enlisted Aircrew badges and Master Intelligence badges, a new blue beret, and a new mess dress uniform with a complete set of 34 miniature medals. Would I LIKE to see my cadets have the entire contingent of uniforms? You bet. Am I gonna "die a little" if they don't? No, I am just going to be thrilled to see them each week. Now--CHILL OUT.
Warmest Regards,
Dave
Unfortunately, CAP is a costly activity. Would you let your cadets go around in a BDU top and Army Greens bottom if that's all they could get? CAP costs money and unfortunately some people either have to get the money or put up with uncomfortability. It gets to about -6 around meet time here and I can't seem to my lightweight jacket, therefore the past three meets, I've been in short sleeve Blues with no outerwear. Uncomfortable, yes. In regulation, yes. How can you teach discipline and the Air Force way by so willfully disregarding directives from National?
Airman,
The prime directive from National is safety. Safety takes precedence. So for a meeting, if you have tops and bottoms BDU, and a set of Blues, then you should be allowed to wear civilian coat, if it 30, 10, or -10 weather.
What is the codeword? SAFETY!
Flyer
If National does, in fact, indicate that safety is overrides all other regulations, then why not have a Cadet, without proper cold-weather gear, should be out of uniform, in civvies, and in reg. Any objections?
Not sure what you saying.
In my view, you can wear civilian coat with blue or BDU uniform if weather is O-my-its freezing and you have not been able to get the coats.
Common sense.
Flyer
Quote from: Airman De Ruiter on January 22, 2013, 11:18:55 AM
Unfortunately, CAP is a costly activity. Would you let your cadets go around in a BDU top and Army Greens bottom if that's all they could get? CAP costs money and unfortunately some people either have to get the money or put up with uncomfortability. It gets to about -6 around meet time here and I can't seem to my lightweight jacket, therefore the past three meets, I've been in short sleeve Blues with no outerwear. Uncomfortable, yes. In regulation, yes. How can you teach discipline and the Air Force way by so willfully disregarding directives from National?
I would have sent you home. Simple and problem solved. At the same time, the rest of the cadets in their lowly civilian coats would get to do what they came to do.
This is the first time I am commenting on this, I am new to CAP but I have served 35 years in the Army/Army Reserve and soon to retire a 1SG. By the very nature of my job/title I am the walking regulation and enforcer of said regulations. I am also concerned for the safety of the cadets. So coming from my background and seeing what the uniform situation is, I would adjust accordingly. If a Cadet didn't have a winter jacket I would have ZERO issues with him/her wearing their street jacket with few exceptions. Since the BDU pattern is less available then it was when it was worn in the service you have to use common sense. If a Cadet show up with a civilian jacket over his uniform or a pair of thermal underwear on and it is very cold outside you would have to have rocks in your head to tell him/her to take it off and go outside. I would rather take the butt chewing for the cadets then have one get sick or decide that they are done volunteering after all the hard work they put in. Sometimes leadership means making a choice that will get you a kick in the butt.
Quote from: DennisH on January 22, 2013, 03:21:10 PM
This is the first time I am commenting on this, I am new to CAP but I have served 35 years in the Army/Army Reserve and soon to retire a 1SG. By the very nature of my job/title I am the walking regulation and enforcer of said regulations. I am also concerned for the safety of the cadets. So coming from my background and seeing what the uniform situation is, I would adjust accordingly. If a Cadet didn't have a winter jacket I would have ZERO issues with him/her wearing their street jacket with few exceptions. Since the BDU pattern is less available then it was when it was worn in the service you have to use common sense. If a Cadet show up with a civilian jacket over his uniform or a pair of thermal underwear on and it is very cold outside you would have to have rocks in your head to tell him/her to take it off and go outside. I would rather take the butt chewing for the cadets then have one get sick or decide that they are done volunteering after all the hard work they put in. Sometimes leadership means making a choice that will get you a kick in the butt.
Sometimes leadership means making a choice that will get you a kick in the butt.
HOOAH!
Randy L. Mitchell
Old 11B
Quote from: ol'fido on January 22, 2013, 11:52:10 PM
Sometimes leadership means making a choice that will get you a kick in the butt.
HOOAH!
Randy L. Mitchell
Old 11B
Concur 100%!
HOOAH!
Old Former 11B2P
I would love to see every one of my cadets and senior members wear the appropriate uniform jacket (and the required insignias) at all times. In fact, it does bother me a bit when cadets wear civilian apparel with their uniforms. That being said, I would NEVER let a cadet be cold outside because he/she can't afford the right jacket. Safety is ALWAYS first!
Airman De Ruiter, you have a lot to learn about life, not just CAP. You're NOT in the Air Force. And as someone who is, I can tell you most uniforms are either issued (at no cost) to Air Force personnel or are purchased with uniform allowances. Heck, as an officer I have to pay out of pocket for many uniform items, but I also get a paycheck for wearing my uniform. That's not the case with CAP volunteers.
Adapt and overcome.
QuoteIt gets to about -6 around meet time here and I can't seem to my lightweight jacket, therefore the past three meets, I've been in short sleeve Blues with no outerwear.
That's not hardcore, that is foolish. Take a look at this (http://www.nws.noaa.gov/os/windchill/images/windchill.gif) chart. You're risking frost bite or hypothermia in short order. I'm not going to look at you as 'hard core cadet doing the right thing' I'm going to look at you as 'misguided kid who has his priorities waaaaaaay out of order.' That certainly won't be conducive to me giving you any position of responsibility over anyone.
Can I get in on some hooahing by throwing out my K13S3C?
Airman De Ruitere, The problem is that you don't understand leadership.
Define leadership.
The art and science of accomplishing the mission with a group of people.
The regulations are not the mission. They are important.....but they are not the mission.
ANY.....I say again ANY regulation that interferes with the mission is to be ignored.
NOW....having just said that.........One of the hard lessons of leadership is how to teach people when and how to ignore regulations.
That takes time, maturity and wisdom.
So.....slow the roll.....back off the "but the regs say" and the "but national says".......Yes the regs say and Nathion says.....but there is a chain of command to interpet and enforce regulations and national's policies. As a new member and junior leader just dipping your toes into the waters of this gray sea......know and follow the regs. Seek advice from YOUR chain of command on anything that you don't understand and FOLLOW their guidance. One day you will have been a BTDT kind of guy and you can make the judgement calls and disregard the regs. But until you do.....just chill.
Quote from: lordmonar on January 23, 2013, 04:56:37 AM
...But until you do.....just chill.
Preferably without freezing in -6 degree weather as a result of your own inability to cope with change, but whatever floats your boat! ::)
Quote from: usafaux2004 on January 22, 2013, 02:39:58 PM
I would have sent you home. Simple and problem solved. At the same time, the rest of the cadets in their lowly civilian coats would get to do what they came to do.
I don't see what rule I broke to deserve being dismissed. Obviously the consensus is to allow civilian jackets, but to mandate it seems a little...
Quote from: Airman De Ruiter on January 23, 2013, 07:09:59 AM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on January 22, 2013, 02:39:58 PM
I would have sent you home. Simple and problem solved. At the same time, the rest of the cadets in their lowly civilian coats would get to do what they came to do.
I don't see what rule I broke to deserve being dismissed. Obviously the consensus is to allow civilian jackets, but to mandate it seems a little...
You broke the safety rule. You do not endanger yourself, or others. Being outside in air that cold definitely endangers yourself.
Quote from: SarDragon on January 23, 2013, 07:11:37 AM
Quote from: Airman De Ruiter on January 23, 2013, 07:09:59 AM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on January 22, 2013, 02:39:58 PM
I would have sent you home. Simple and problem solved. At the same time, the rest of the cadets in their lowly civilian coats would get to do what they came to do.
I don't see what rule I broke to deserve being dismissed. Obviously the consensus is to allow civilian jackets, but to mandate it seems a little...
You broke the safety rule. You do not endanger yourself, or others. Being outside in air that cold definitely endangers yourself.
^+1
It's one thing to forget your "regulation" jacket, but to show up without one at all? MUCH WORSE. It shows that you did not think, it shows that your parents did not think, and I would NOT want the liability of you getting sick or loosing fingers to be on me. Where were the SMs from your squadron?
^+2.
As a former safety officer of many years standing, and as a current assistant safety officer, Safety is Job 1, Priority 1...period.
That comes from both CAP and the Air Force.
I am not going to gig a cadet for wearing a civilian jacket when it's cold enough to freeze the blood.
I will, and have, gigged cadets for insisting on unsafe behaviour (trying to PT in sleet/freezing rain; in addition to the obvious temperature issues, it's way too easy to slip and fall in such conditions), and I would do so in these circumstances. As I've told cadets time and again, CAP isn't Full Metal Jacket.
Take a good look at the chart LGM30GMCC provided, and remember well that hypothermia can creep up on you before you're even aware of it.
How do you know when you're too cold? You're shivering.
There is a safety self-test on E-Services about freezing temperatures that I suggest you have a look at.
^+1
Safety - Always rule #1
We preach that to our cadets....Jackets !!!!
Just a side note.
Running in the winter is just part of running. Even on icy roads. Or when it is snowing.
Same for PT.
Sure, take precautions against falls. That's just routine ORM. I sure wouldn't allow cadets to attempt the shuttle run in an icy parking lot.
But I hope no one is suggesting that cadets can never do PT when it is cold outside. Or snowing. Or even raining.
It just takes proper preparation and ORM.
Ned Lee
Running Enthusiast
Quote from: Ned on January 23, 2013, 04:42:05 PM
Just a side note.
Running in the winter is just part of running. Even on icy roads. Or when it is snowing.
Same for PT.
Sure, take precautions against falls. That's just routine ORM. I sure wouldn't allow cadets to attempt the shuttle run in an icy parking lot.
But I hope no one is suggesting that cadets can never do PT when it is cold outside. Or snowing. Or even raining.
It just takes proper preparation and ORM.
Ned Lee
Running Enthusiast
PT is like ES/SAR, it still happens, regardless of weather...to an extent.
Stonewall
Runner
but I hate it
Not to mention that with some of our smaller cadets that if they tried to wear even the smallest uniform jacket/coat look like Yoda they would. ;)
Quote from: Airman De Ruiter on January 13, 2013, 04:08:51 AMIf you don't have the money, that's unfortunate...deal with it.
With the last topic that has been locked....this some is certainly a troll...
Quote from: usafaux2004 on February 01, 2013, 02:32:31 AM
Quote from: Airman De Ruiter on January 13, 2013, 04:08:51 AMIf you don't have the money, that's unfortunate...deal with it.
With the last topic that has been locked....this some is certainly a troll...
Not really, that's, as wrong and deluded as has been the concensus, what I legitimately believe.
Here's my take on the whole civie jacket in uniform. At our squadron the policy is...
1.) Wear the prescribed jacket/outerwear
if you don't have it....
2.) Wear a black, dark blue, or brown solid colored jacket (in that order of preference)
if you can't hack that....
3.) Wear a jacket of appropriate warmth.
Even with that policy. I had two cadets show up to our meeting on the coldest day of the year (15 degrees, windchill well into the single digits) with NO jackets. That made me infinitely more angry than them showing up with a bright orange civilian jacket.
The one thing that torques me off is the members that have the means to buy an approved jacket but choose not to, just to be different.
Quote from: CDCTF on February 05, 2013, 12:26:11 AM
Here's my take on the whole civie jacket in uniform. At our squadron the policy is...
1.) Wear the prescribed jacket/outerwear
if you don't have it....
2.) Wear a black, dark blue, or brown solid colored jacket (in that order of preference)
if you can't hack that....
3.) Wear a jacket of appropriate warmth.
Even with that policy. I had two cadets show up to our meeting on the coldest day of the year (15 degrees, windchill well into the single digits) with NO jackets. That made me infinitely more angry than them showing up with a bright orange civilian jacket.
The one thing that torques me off is the members that have the means to buy an approved jacket but choose not to, just to be different.
I like that. I really do. My squadron has a policy pretty similar to that, and it works. It's conservative(No Hello Kitty or MLP jackets, thank goodness) and looks decent for the most part, dependent on the jacket worn.