Greetings, all. Very nice forum. I am a new senior member (less than a year active) and having a place to come and talk and learn is great!
To my question...what's the point? I joined and my earlier CAP experience as a cadet many years ago resulted in my rank being a 1Lt. Ok. Fair enough.
Since, I have become a mission pilot, taken over a specialty no one else wanted (and I don't like doing but it has to get done), taken on an additional specialty, attended several SAREX's, etc., etc., etc. And, I also learned that one's "age, life experience, education and leadership," (paraphrasing), should be considered when awarding rank. I have run businesses for over twenty years, have a graduate degree from an Ivy school, and bring some other assets that are ignored or unused by CAP. No one even asked me about that sort of stuff.
That said, I've seen a parade of guys join our squadron and go from SM to Lt. Col. I check their training records, etc., and they have less than do I. Most are sort of dumpy (frankly) and can't even wear the CAP uniform--and don't seem to want to do so to set an example for our cadets. Many are ANG or Reserve guys or retirees who are--speaking candidly here--looking to be a part of something and coast. Their energetic days are behind them. But, since they were in a military of some sort that seem to leap forward in rank (even knowing nothing about CAP).
I am being pushed to spend my weekends going to SLS and various other schools. Looking at the time-in-rank requirements and I can't see major until my mid-60's. I am doing what I joined to do--fly missions--so I am struggling with why I'd want to invest my time and effort to achieve something others seem to get handed to them.
I guess you can tell that I am frustrated. But I see opportunities for our squadron that, candidly, those in our leadership positions can't. No imagination. No effort. No leadership other than sporting their rank and swaggering around at meetings. Do any of you share my dilemma? Is it best to just ignore what can be and enjoy the flying? I do deeply value and appreciate CAP's mission. Is there any value, really, in pursuing rank and leadership positions?
Seriously.
And thanks for your thoughts.
You received your grade based on skills/cadet credit, but are complaining because others received the same, but more?
Htiger, only YOU can decide if it's worth it. If this is going to do nothing but cause you heartburn then maybe you need to do something else.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 29, 2012, 02:19:26 AM
You received your grade based on skills/cadet credit, but are complaining because others received the same, but more?
Well, he was given grade based on prior CAP experience which is somewhat different than the folks he is complaining about.
While I am one of the few here that advocates eliminating all advanced promotions, even for prior service military, even I would probably be okay with the advanced ratings for former CAP cadets since it is based on training in our organization.
He is a pilot, so his grade may be based on that as opposed to Mitchell/Earhart. But even then, the experience as a cadet becomes outdated quickly. I recently reengaged after college and the cadet program literally is 100% different when it comes to progression on the leadership side. Besides his gripe is about not getting major until his mid-sixties, implying that he doesn't really care for all the SLS/clc/obc courses and just wants to get the grade. To what end is what I'm wondering. Will he be more respected? Will he be better paid? All I saw in his post was the white horse new guy developing. Now there are some things that I do not agree with or think I have a better idea on than the current leaders, but I know enough to know that I do not know enough to run a unit. You got a graduate degree at an ivy league school? So did W., what's your point? You feel offended no one asked you about it? Why doubt you bring up the relevant skills when the need come up?
I think what the OP might be referring to is the ability of military AD or Retired to come into CAP at their highest military grade. They then use PME and get waivers for things like RSC and NSC etc.
As for the question of is it worth it. That is up to you. I can't get too spun up about CAP grade since it has little relevance to anything. If their self worth and image is tied up in CAP grade that is truly sad.
The bototm line is that there is no /requirement/ on you at all, to progress in the senior member development program (attend SLS)
If you *WANT* to progress, then go check the boxes.
If you dont care, then keep rockin your staff job, and go out flying.
Grade is all fine and dandy, and don't get me wrong I can't wait for my next promotion that I worked for, but it's not everything in CAP. It's solely personal professional development of the member, through CAP or out of CAP, though it's hard to really get a grasp of sometimes, especially for outsiders and sometimes those inside CAP.
As you know, grade delegates no command over anyone else, the member's position does. While I'm only "low" on the grade food chain, but due to my position in the unit, I have 3 retired O-6's (now CAP LtCols, since you can't get prior military grade higher than LtCol) that work under my direction, that and other CAP members of higher grade than I. Just because they are LtCols doesn't mean they trump my position in the unit.
I do have another retired O-5, I mentioned to them that they can apply for a matching CAP grade, but they mentioned to me that they don't mind working their way through and learning the CAP program, and they have, seen them at SLS, CLC, conferences etc. Just depends on the folks you run into. It really doesn't bother me either way as long as they learn and contribute to the CAP mission.
I do want to comment that I've had absolutely no problems working with any member in my unit who chose to have their prior military grade (up to CAP LtCol). I do know some folks at other units who have run into issues, but I'm not in a real position to comment on their experiences.
Again for me, it's about what you do to further the missions of CAP.
Quote from: PA Guy on October 29, 2012, 04:58:03 AM
I think what the OP might be referring to is the ability of military AD or Retired to come into CAP at their highest military grade. They then use PME and get waivers for things like RSC and NSC etc.
That seems to be how I read it.
I have to be honest and say that I sometimes have had the same feeling about retired, AD, Guard/Reserve who come into CAP knowing little to nothing about it, get field grade rank pinned on (OK, slid onto epaulettes), then don't want to do the things that the rest of us who have had to climb up the ladder and do SLS, CLC, ECI 13 (showing my age here) etc. Not to flog a dead horse here, but I notice that especially with pilots, and many of these types that I have encountered want zip, zilch, nada to do with cadets. A bit of news for those: even if you are in a senior squadron, CP is an integral part of CAP...
all of CAP.
Sadly, the ones I see coming into CAP knowing the least about it are former
AIR FORCE. I suppose that's to be expected, given the distance that has grown between CAP and the AF over the past 20 years.
Some of those I personally think would be better off being active in a chapter of the Air Force Association.
I'm with RiverAux on kiboshing the advanced promotion, except for lawyers, physicians, nurses, padres etc., the way the military does. I also think that using PME to circumvent CAP PD courses should be 86'd. PME is just that - Professional Military Education - and very little of what one learns there can be effectively transferred to CAP. Conversely, if you've had SLS, CLC, etc. and join the military, it's not going to get you anything advanced. So the advantage is very one-sided.
However, it is what it is, it is what has been, and it is what will be. The system is too entrenched to be changed.
So, as others have said, one has to balance what is and acceptance of what is v. what you want to put into and get out of CAP.
I was of the mind that I wanted to go as far as I could as fast as I could, when I got in as a SM back in '93. I had delusions of grandeur, I guess. I did all the courses, took all the classes, then here it is 19 years later and I can see the wall at the end of the tunnel: LTC. I don't want to be on wing staff, I don't want to be a wing or region CC. I want to do what I can while I can. Hitting the wall early on in your CAP career doesn't mean the end of your CAP career, obviously, as there are always jobs to do and specialty tracks to fill. I told the story of a man in our unit who resisted getting his LTC due to his Navy career, and wanted to progress normally, but being installed as our CC made that impossible for him. That was in 2002 and he is still kickin' it as our safety officer and chief o-flight pilot. The man has sand. He just wants to do the job, screw going anywhere else.
My point, and I do have one, is that there is a point to everyone's CAP career. Either you serve yourself or you serve the corporation. If all you want are accolades and ribbons and certificates, you can do that. If you want to serve the corporation, you can do that as well and still get all the accolades and ribbons and certificates you want, as well as the respect and admiration of those you help along the way. You can choose to be bitter about the FNG who comes in off the street and gets promoted to Captain because of whatever reason, or you can look at it as an opportunity. There's always going to be someone you "outrank". Even these brand new shake-n-bake officers have a great deal to learn from you. The rank doesn't make the officer, in this case. There are unit commanders, as pointed out in various posts and threads, who are outranked by green LTCs with umpteen years of military experience. Does that experience translate well to CAP? Yes and no. We know about as much of the inner workings of an active duty Air Force squadron as they do of a CAP unit. Basically the same animal but different stripes. You can't drop a CAP LTC into an Air Force unit and get good results, nor can you do the opposite.
To the OP, take a deep breath and think about why you joined CAP as a senior member. These FNGs with LTC oak leaves know less than you do, even with their years of active duty experience. If they start acting as if the rank means something, then they're in for the wrong reason. You are not.
I agree with CyBorg. PME really doesn't apply to CAP. If CAP really is going to start enforcing the need for college diplomas to progress, then PME should be done away with. Most military officers have some sort of baccalaureate degree anyway, and for the most part, we don't have an NCO corps. Even a lot of NCOs have college degrees or are working towards them, so why do we need a PME equivalency? It really does not apply to CAP, except as a means to gain rank.
Quote from: Htiger on October 29, 2012, 02:12:50 AM
Greetings, all. Very nice forum. I am a new senior member (less than a year active) and having a place to come and talk and learn is great!
That said, I've seen a parade of guys join our squadron and go from SM to Lt. Col. I check their training records, etc., and they have less than do I. Most are sort of dumpy (frankly) and can't even wear the CAP uniform--and don't seem to want to do so to set an example for our cadets. Many are ANG or Reserve guys or retirees who are--speaking candidly here--looking to be a part of something and coast. Their energetic days are behind them. But, since they were in a military of some sort that seem to leap forward in rank (even knowing nothing about CAP).
For members without military service, it generally takes 10+ years of volunteer service, as well as a fairly significant amount of staff work and
activities to be promoted to Lt Col, including at least one Master rating in a Specialty.
For those with military service, they have received training from their service which far exceeds CAP's expectations for similar grade.
In neither case does anyone wearing silver oaks have "less that you".
Quote from: coudano on October 29, 2012, 05:31:52 AM
The bototm line is that there is no /requirement/ on you at all, to progress in the senior member development program (attend SLS)
If you *WANT* to progress, then go check the boxes.
If you dont care, then keep rockin your staff job, and go out flying.
Why worry about buying new grade insignia anyway... You like to fly missions? Fly. You are a qualified mission pilot.
If you enjoy ES, become a qualified IC. Grade is not an issue; experience and training is. Everyone must qualify at the same level. Believe me; being a SM or Col. makes no difference. The commitment to the training, currency and proficiency does. Go enjoy what you like to do. Advance in your flying and mission skills, establish some good friendships and "earn" the grade when you can. That's "the point", ;)
Quote from: Htiger on October 29, 2012, 02:12:50 AM
I guess you can tell that I am frustrated. But I see opportunities for our squadron that, candidly, those in our leadership positions can't. No imagination. No effort. No leadership other than sporting their rank and swaggering around at meetings. Do any of you share my dilemma? Is it best to just ignore what can be and enjoy the flying? I do deeply value and appreciate CAP's mission. Is there any value, really, in pursuing rank and leadership positions?
IMHO, this is the money quote from your post.
The bottom line is that if you ever want to be in a position to change CAP for the better, you have to play the professional development game. Yes, it stinks to see people put on advanced rank and do nothing of note for the organization, but that does nothing at all to change YOUR reality.
Quote from: NC Hokie on October 29, 2012, 03:25:05 PM
Quote from: Htiger on October 29, 2012, 02:12:50 AM
I guess you can tell that I am frustrated. But I see opportunities for our squadron that, candidly, those in our leadership positions can't. No imagination. No effort. No leadership other than sporting their rank and swaggering around at meetings. Do any of you share my dilemma? Is it best to just ignore what can be and enjoy the flying? I do deeply value and appreciate CAP's mission. Is there any value, really, in pursuing rank and leadership positions?
IMHO, this is the money quote from your post.
The bottom line is that if you ever want to be in a position to change CAP for the better, you have to play the professional development game. Yes, it stinks to see people put on advanced rank and do nothing of note for the organization, but that does nothing at all to change YOUR reality.
Plus there is no grade requirement to be a Squadron Commander. Don't like the way the unit is run? Then step up and be the next commander!
That's if the previous guy wants to give up the position. Which is why I support term limits.
Quote from: spacecommand on October 30, 2012, 01:08:24 AM
That's if the previous guy wants to give up the position. Which is why I support term limits.
Or if the Wing Commander wants someone else in that job. It's not a dictatorship. Squadron Commanders serve at the pleasure of the Wing Commander. If there is a problem with the way your unit is being run. Make a complaint to the Group Commander.
Quote from: Htiger on October 29, 2012, 02:12:50 AM
Since, I have become a mission pilot, taken over a specialty no one else wanted (and I don't like doing but it has to get done), taken on an additional specialty, attended several SAREX's, etc., etc., etc. And, I also learned that one's "age, life experience, education and leadership," (paraphrasing), should be considered when awarding rank. I have run businesses for over twenty years, have a graduate degree from an Ivy school, and bring some other assets that are ignored or unused by CAP. No one even asked me about that sort of stuff.
I see opportunities for our squadron that, candidly, those in our leadership positions can't. No imagination. No effort. No leadership other than sporting their rank and swaggering around at meetings. Do any of you share my dilemma? Is it best to just ignore what can be and enjoy the flying?
#1, you earn rank, it is not awarded.
#2, I see new guys always coming and wanting to reinvent the wheel. I have seen people get a chance to be a Squadron, Group or Wing Commander and fail. A MBA from a Ivy League school does not translate to 100% successful Commander.
If you are not having fun, move on.
With few exceptions, you can do most everything in CAP (certainly everything at the squadron & group level) as a 1st Lt. I know very few good CAP members who hold rank (or lack thereof) over anybody's head. You have to realize that senior member rank is not like cadet rank. Nobody is going to appoint a C/SSgt as a summer encampment cadet commander. But a brand new SM or 2dLt becoming a squadron commander is not as uncommon as you'd think.
Do what you like to do in CAP. Find stuff you enjoy and do it. Nobody cares if you're a 1st Lt or a Lt Col as a mission pilot, or activities officer, or squadron commander, or PAO, or GTL, ad nauseum.
Ignore the people who join and "coast" if they annoy you — everyone has varying levels of commitment to CAP. After all, we are not the military and there's no commitment here. If you want to volunteer once a month and just give a safety briefing, most places will be happy to have the help for just that rather than no help at all. The fact that you're motivated and want to do more is awesome. Really awesome. But don't hold your enthusiasm over the heads of the less CAP-enthusiastic. Then you become like people who hold their rank over the heads of those of lesser grade.
Interesting thing about rank in CAP. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with anything you may want to do in CAP unless you plan on being the wing commander or something like that someday.
I was a Mission/CD Piot, I was a couple sorties away from having a silver clasp on my CD ribbon, held every position in the SQ to include the Commander. The Squadron earned Wing and Region Sq of Distinction. My unit got two back to back brand new G1000's, one being a Turbo. All while being a silly little 1Lt Squadron Commander. Never went to SLS or UCC. People who came in with advanced rank never got anything beyond that rank unless they proved they deserved it. People get so tied up about rank in CAP. NEver prevented me from doing anything in CAP that I wanted to do. If a retired Army LTC wants to join CAP, slap on his LTC leaves and then just sit in the back of the room, who cares. Chances are most wont though.
Am I suggesting you blow off PD and not be involved? No. I was signed up for SLS twice and UCC once. Because of my work schedule I had to no-show on all three because of being called into work. I just say enjoy managing your membership and dont lose any sleep over someone elses.
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 30, 2012, 03:23:34 PM
.....I just say enjoy managing your membership and don't lose any sleep over someone else's.
:clap:
OP hasn't been back since his post...
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 30, 2012, 08:57:32 PM
OP hasn't been back since his post...
[cues Freddy Mercury & Co]
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 30, 2012, 08:57:32 PM
OP hasn't been back since his post...
Good Grief...... Cut the guy some slack. He only posted it 2 days ago.
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 30, 2012, 09:16:41 PM
Good Grief...... Cut the guy some slack. He only posted it 2 days ago.
2 days ago Atlantic City was a gambling town, now it's a water park.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 30, 2012, 08:57:32 PM
OP hasn't been back since his post...
Some people have a life outside of Captalk.
Quote from: RogueLeader on October 31, 2012, 12:50:38 AM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 30, 2012, 08:57:32 PM
OP hasn't been back since his post...
Some people have a life outside of Captalk.
That's funny! You were being funny, yes?
Quote from: RogueLeader on October 31, 2012, 12:50:38 AM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 30, 2012, 08:57:32 PM
OP hasn't been back since his post...
Some people have a life outside of Captalk.
(http://www.funnydictionary.com/img/entry_images/900/vr7KUExgR8r.jpg)
Tick-tock. Tick-tock. Tick-tock.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 30, 2012, 09:23:38 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on October 30, 2012, 09:16:41 PM
Good Grief...... Cut the guy some slack. He only posted it 2 days ago.
2 days ago Atlantic City was a gambling town, now it's a water park.
ROFLMAO :clap:
Quote from: Htiger on October 29, 2012, 02:12:50 AM
Greetings, all. Very nice forum. I am a new senior member (less than a year active) and having a place to come and talk and learn is great!
To my question...what's the point? I joined and my earlier CAP experience as a cadet many years ago resulted in my rank being a 1Lt. Ok. Fair enough.
Since, I have become a mission pilot, taken over a specialty no one else wanted (and I don't like doing but it has to get done), taken on an additional specialty, attended several SAREX's, etc., etc., etc. And, I also learned that one's "age, life experience, education and leadership," (paraphrasing), should be considered when awarding rank. I have run businesses for over twenty years, have a graduate degree from an Ivy school, and bring some other assets that are ignored or unused by CAP. No one even asked me about that sort of stuff.
That said, I've seen a parade of guys join our squadron and go from SM to Lt. Col. I check their training records, etc., and they have less than do I. Most are sort of dumpy (frankly) and can't even wear the CAP uniform--and don't seem to want to do so to set an example for our cadets. Many are ANG or Reserve guys or retirees who are--speaking candidly here--looking to be a part of something and coast. Their energetic days are behind them. But, since they were in a military of some sort that seem to leap forward in rank (even knowing nothing about CAP).
I am being pushed to spend my weekends going to SLS and various other schools. Looking at the time-in-rank requirements and I can't see major until my mid-60's. I am doing what I joined to do--fly missions--so I am struggling with why I'd want to invest my time and effort to achieve something others seem to get handed to them.
I guess you can tell that I am frustrated. But I see opportunities for our squadron that, candidly, those in our leadership positions can't. No imagination. No effort. No leadership other than sporting their rank and swaggering around at meetings. Do any of you share my dilemma? Is it best to just ignore what can be and enjoy the flying? I do deeply value and appreciate CAP's mission. Is there any value, really, in pursuing rank and leadership positions?
Seriously.
And thanks for your thoughts.
OK, I get that you're frustrated. Sour grapes aside, your progression in this organization is based on what you bring to the table, your own dedication, perserverence and determination, and you're mixing apples with oranges.
OK, so your a pilot and a former cadet; that's great. You didn't say what the qualifications were of the others who joined at higher ranks or the value of what they bring to the organization.
Your cadet achievements are commendable. I envy your attainment of pilot credentials because that has been something I've never been able to achieve -- I sit in the right seat and that's fine. However, if you want to be promoted, do what is required and make your presence known. I guarantee that you will be noticed.
The road before you in this organiation can be hard. Make your progression; the achievement of rank meaningful.
I speak from experience. I'm as high as I will ever get (I don't anticipate ever being elected to CAP office). I remember a time when I felt the same way -- I actually spent 11 years as a first lieutenant -- but I finally made it. In between has been all the training you complained about, lots of hours, dollars and miles on my car, several squadron and group staff assignments, a group command assignment, and now wing staff.
I commend you for your service, but no goal that is worth achieving is going to be easy. The road is long and hard before you. Are you up to the task before you.
this thread has reached the end of its useful life...