I was looking through old posts and I could find where someone had posted a long time ago a couple of pages that had white on blue RM cloth badges, but those are no longer there. VG will sell them, but only in lots of 100. I only want 3. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Ooops, I forgot what I had actually posted. Never mind...
EDIT: http://www.nametags4u.com/civilairpatrol.html
They still have the RM option, just no actual CAP stuff.
These folks have some.
http://www.thebattlezone.biz/airforce/badges.html
Quote from: JC004 on September 27, 2010, 10:42:35 PM
These folks have some.
http://www.thebattlezone.biz/airforce/badges.html
Does not have CIB nor AASLT.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 27, 2010, 10:46:22 PM
Quote from: JC004 on September 27, 2010, 10:42:35 PM
These folks have some.
http://www.thebattlezone.biz/airforce/badges.html
Does not have CIB nor AASLT.
If that's what you're wearing, subdued is legal. Since they're both subdued, it won't look funky.
But it does when wearing things like GT badges.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 27, 2010, 10:46:22 PM
Quote from: JC004 on September 27, 2010, 10:42:35 PM
These folks have some.
http://www.thebattlezone.biz/airforce/badges.html
Does not have CIB nor AASLT.
cuz AF. There isn't much demand for a decades-old color scheme, I imagine - especially in non-AF badges. Had you joined the AF instead, you would have been more easily able to get blue and white badges. See what you did? >:D
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 27, 2010, 10:53:42 PM
But it does when wearing things like GT badges.
If you are wearing a GT badge along with Air Assault and CIB, then you are wearing one too many badges. Pick 2.
There is nothing wrong with being in the Army.
No, I can't wear all three but I can still wear my CIB and GT badge. I was really just wondering where to find them. Thank you DakRadz, you answered my question wonderfully.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2010, 12:32:22 AM
... I can still wear my CIB and GT badge. I was really just wondering where to find them.
Wear the subdued one on top. It won't look like there's an oddball space from a distance.
You can't wear RM badges above CAP badges, 39-1 states that CAP badges must be worn above RM badges.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2010, 02:22:17 AM
You can't wear RM badges above CAP badges, 39-1 states that CAP badges must be worn above RM badges.
Which is why I don't wear my CAP badges/wings. I wear my Air Force ones instead. I had to work to get those!
Quote from: PHall on September 28, 2010, 03:11:32 AMWhich is why I don't wear my CAP badges/wings. I wear my Air Force ones instead. I had to work to get those!
So those of use with only CAP badges didn't work for them?
I think the amount of work involved in Phil's AF badges far exceeds the amount involved in his CAP badges.
YMMV.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2010, 02:22:17 AM
You can't wear RM badges above CAP badges, 39-1 states that CAP badges must be worn above RM badges.
I cant seem to find where is says military badges below cap ones...i see where it says cap aviation badges above military but..... like ground team... i don't see it... maybe I'm blind but could someone cite please?
Quote from: NCRblues on September 28, 2010, 03:43:31 AM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2010, 02:22:17 AM
You can't wear RM badges above CAP badges, 39-1 states that CAP badges must be worn above RM badges.
I cant seem to find where is says military badges below cap ones...i see where it says cap aviation badges above military but..... like ground team... i don't see it... maybe I'm blind but could someone cite please?
39-1 page 18 pint 8, "A maximum of 2 devices may be worn above the ribbons." That is set for the blues.
Page 32 of the 39-1 states in lines 5 and 6 "5. CAP Aviation Badges and Specialty Insignia: Embroidered, worn 1/2 inch above the cloth "Civil Air Patrol" tape worn
over the left breast pocket. If both devices are worn, aviation badges should be 1/2 inch above specialty insignia.
6. Military Aviation Badges: Embroidered (subdued or white on blue), centered 1/2 inch below the CAP
aviation badge above left breast pocket.
So far as the BDU is concerned, there is a limit of four badges/ devices that may be worn. according to the 39-1 page 105 paragraph 1 6-2 policy A maximum of four badges/devices may be worn
on the AF-style uniforms.
So that being said, I was wrong about it stating that CAP badges are to be worn above any RM badges, it was aviation badges. However I was wrong also about the number of badges that may be worn on the BDU, you may wear 4. My only question is are you allowed to wear two side by side, I know it says you may not wear two in the same position, the Army uniform manual said the same thing though, but they actually showed what they were talking about. They were speaking of wearing an Expert Infantry Badge (without wreath) literally sewn to the Combat Infantry Badge so they became the one badge trying to mean that the wearer has earned both. I guess the same could be done with the GT badges. *PUKE* why anyone would try to wear multiple badges against each other is beyond me.
I see where you got the four badge max, but if you read the bdu section (pg 32), it references "both" for CAP aviation and specialty insignia. Which indicates a max of two badges.
Methinks a message to Ms. Susie Parker is called for...
Quote from: SarDragon on September 28, 2010, 03:27:08 AM
I think the amount of work involved in Phil's AF badges far exceeds the amount involved in his CAP badges.
YMMV.
Not relevant to the discussion and insulting to fellow members, especially characterized as such.
^ Thank you Eclipse.....words right out of my brain.
Now and again we run across prior service members who come into CAP and feel they need to announce that they served, and take an attitude that their achievements far outweigh the achievements of other CAP members.
I guess the member I have in my unit who is blind, but worked hard at getting his communicators badge did not work long or hard enough according to some!!
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2010, 05:06:33 AM
*PUKE* why anyone would try to wear multiple badges against each other is beyond me.
Back in the day ... (old guy stuff and topic drift AND it's about uniforms - I win!!!)
We (in the Army) would pin full color EIB's to our CIB's (if authorized both) during the EIB testing period. It was supposed to show that we were "true blue". If I remember correctly, the EIB-only guys also pinned full color ones on during the test to show who had them. I remember the first, but there may have been one to many bad PLF's on the second one since I got them in alphabetical order.
Would not be an issue these days with all of the badges being pin on on the ACU.
During testing is a different animal altogether. We did the same thing. However there were evidently personnel that did that very thing full time. We did have one kid who just got his EIB after being in Iraq and getting his CIB and he decided to sew his EIB right on top of his CIB on his DCU. It looked weird and stuck out like a sore thumb. He got gigged for it and was told to remove it. So he did, but then came time for us to wear our class A, he had taken the pins off of his EIB and hot glued it to his CIB, his EIB was revoked due to what they called misrepresentation and defacing the award. I don't think they should have gone that far. They wanted to take his CIB also but could only take one award per incident, they would have to hit him again for the same offense but you can't get hit twice for one thing... They can't do that and they know it. I don't think they should have gone that drastic but they did what they thought they should and that is above my grade.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2010, 02:56:27 PMWe did have one kid who just got his EIB after being in Iraq and getting his CIB and he decided to sew his EIB right on top of his CIB on his DCU.
It's also against the reg. If a CIB has been awarded, it's the badge worn.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2010, 02:56:27 PM....his EIB was revoked due to what they called misrepresentation and defacing the award. I don't think they should have gone that far.
I would agree, conditionally.
If the guy just didn't know any better, talk to him, show him the reg, explain it. Now, if he took the attitude, "I earned them both, I'm gonna wear them!", then it was probably appropriate to revoke one of the awards.
The reasons behind why he had the both can be telling. If he took the EIB test just to get another badge to wear, that's not the best reason. If he took the test to have the second badge on record for points(even knowing he couldn't legally wear it), that would be different, and perfectly understandable.
As to 39-1 not allowing the wear of two badges that don't include an aviation badge, I don't care for the policy. I'd bet it was mirroring the "McPeak policy", if you didn't have an aviation badge then you could only wear one. It was insulting to those that weren't some kind of aircrew. It was changed very shortly after McPeak retired. Yeah, he did do some great things while in charge, but that wasn't one of them.
Second, the policies differing as to which uniform wears things a different way (or at all) is also inconsistent. Make the policies the same for blues or corporate. Can't think of examples at the moment, but I know there are inconsistencies. Eliminate the inconsistencies.
I would agree that uniforms should be equal across the board pertaining to the corporate and USAF style uniforms. The Field uniforms should be worn the same way as should the dress uniforms. However I think you should be allowed to wear any and all your skill badges on your field uniforms. While on the dress uniforms limit it to still having to fall below the top notch of the lapel but allow all your badges that will fit within that area. When that area is filled, you must choose one to the exclusion of the other.
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 28, 2010, 04:56:27 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2010, 02:56:27 PMWe did have one kid who just got his EIB after being in Iraq and getting his CIB and he decided to sew his EIB right on top of his CIB on his DCU.
It's also against the reg. If a CIB has been awarded, it's the badge worn.
Not unless it has changed recently. Both are category one badges and you only wear one cat one badge. I, and several of my friends, took off the CIB and put the EIB back on after a particular incident at Ft Carson in 1992. Not for discussion here, but PM me and I'll explain it - I think that you'll agree with me.
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 28, 2010, 04:56:27 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2010, 02:56:27 PM....his EIB was revoked due to what they called misrepresentation and defacing the award. I don't think they should have gone that far.
I would agree, conditionally. If the guy just didn't know any better, talk to him, show him the reg, explain it. Now, if he took the attitude, "I earned them both, I'm gonna wear them!", then it was probably appropriate to revoke one of the awards.
The reasons behind why he had the both can be telling. If he took the EIB test just to get another badge to wear, that's not the best reason. If he took the test to have the second badge on record for points(even knowing he couldn't legally wear it), that would be different, and perfectly understandable.
There is a tremendous amount of pressure on Infantrymen to "qualify" with the EIB even if they already have the CIB in most infantry units.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2010, 05:08:36 PMHowever I think you should be allowed to wear any and all your skill badges on your field uniforms.
You've got to have a limit somewhere. I think the unofficial practice among some personnel in the Air Force of wearing a third badge on the pocket is a good idea. Two above the tape/ribbons, one on the pocket. Don't make it too busy. I wouldn't mind allowing a foreign badge above the nametape, but I think the limit of four total is appropriate. Just wear the stuff that is most applicable to what you're doing.
One issue I hear from some people that should be clarified is the concept of "exclusion to others." Some people think that it means that if you wear two badges (out of hypothetically four available, for example), that you can only wear those two on
all of the uniforms you possess. The exclusion only applies to a single uniform. If you have four badges, you can wear two on one uniform and two different ones on a different uniform.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2010, 05:08:36 PMWhile on the dress uniforms limit it to still having to fall below the top notch of the lapel but allow all your badges that will fit within that area. When that area is filled, you must choose one to the exclusion of the other.
I don't have as much of a problem with the notch limitation as I do with the shirt/blouse collar limitation. 39-1 permits four wide on the coat, but only three on a shirt/blouse. With that limit, you're stuck either dropping a badge or dropping ribbons.
The Air Force permits four wide, even on shirts/blouses, or allows the wear of miniature ribbons. Either practice could mean the difference between dropping ribbons/badges, and being able to wear them all. Personally, I'd like the option to wear miniatures. It would reduce the amount of real estate, without reducing the number of ribbons
Yes there is, I have both. There is an unwritten rule/law that you should wear your CIB if you have it instead of your EIB. That is just how it is seen in the Infantry world, however there is nothing that actually states that the CIB should be preferred over the EIB. While they are both of the same nature one is not the higher award to the other but only one may be worn at a time.
The most interesting thing to see is someone wearing the EMB (Expert Medic Badge) and the EIB at the same time, we had one guy who wore both and one other who had the CMB and CIB and wore both together. That was great knowing he was in your squad. He was a medic then went infantry. Though he had all four (EMB CMB EIB CIB) he never tried anything weird like wearing all four. The best thing about him was when you yelled MEDIC he couldn't get it out of his head to get there ASAP, he was a great asset.
Now so far as what they did to the other guy who did wear both EIB on top of his CIB, I can't bring myself to agree with what they did, however I can't disagree either. People should know the regulations and follow them. If there is a question ask before going ahead. Making your own decisions just based on "I want to do this so I will and play dumb," is just negligent and looks bad on everyone. One reason we wore those hideous maroon epaulets for a while. If everyone made an effort to know what the regs were then we wouldn't have so many problems with CAP-USAF relationships.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 28, 2010, 05:15:41 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 28, 2010, 04:56:27 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2010, 02:56:27 PMWe did have one kid who just got his EIB after being in Iraq and getting his CIB and he decided to sew his EIB right on top of his CIB on his DCU.
It's also against the reg. If a CIB has been awarded, it's the badge worn.
Not unless it has changed recently. Both are category one badges and you only wear one cat one badge. I, and several of my friends, took off the CIB and put the EIB back on after a particular incident at Ft Carson in 1992. Not for discussion here, but PM me and I'll explain it - I think that you'll agree with me.
You can PM me the story, I'd be curious to read it. As to the stipulation, I simply referenced AR 670-1(3 February 2005), page 297, para
29-17,
b. (2) which states:
Combat badges have precedence over special skill badges within the same group. For example, if an individual is authorized to wear the Combat Infantry badge and the Expert Infantry badge, the Combat Infantry badge is worn.Even the example provided addresses the incident that
manfred related to us.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 28, 2010, 05:15:41 PMQuote from: Hawk200 on September 28, 2010, 04:56:27 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2010, 02:56:27 PM....his EIB was revoked due to what they called misrepresentation and defacing the award. I don't think they should have gone that far.
I would agree, conditionally. If the guy just didn't know any better, talk to him, show him the reg, explain it. Now, if he took the attitude, "I earned them both, I'm gonna wear them!", then it was probably appropriate to revoke one of the awards.
The reasons behind why he had the both can be telling. If he took the EIB test just to get another badge to wear, that's not the best reason. If he took the test to have the second badge on record for points(even knowing he couldn't legally wear it), that would be different, and perfectly understandable.
There is a tremendous amount of pressure on Infantrymen to "qualify" with the EIB even if they already have the CIB in most infantry units.
I wasn't aware of that. My branch is Aviation, so I'm not familiar with the Infantry culture (and yes, I do consider it a different culture, there are distinct differences in how different functional branches of the Army operate.)
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2010, 05:39:41 PM....People should know the regulations and follow them.
Agreed.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2010, 05:39:41 PM....If there is a question ask before going ahead.
Agreed, and something I advocate whenever I can.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2010, 05:39:41 PM....Making your own decisions just based on "I want to do this so I will and play dumb," is just negligent and looks bad on everyone.
I can say "Hear! Hear!" on that one.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2010, 05:39:41 PM....If everyone made an effort to know what the regs were then we wouldn't have so many problems with CAP-USAF relationships.
I wouldn't say it's limited to just CAP, it's common across all the branches. Before ACUs, I would regularly see people wearing Air Force badges on BDUs that were specifically forbidden by the reg. Not just a CAP thing.
I completely agree Hawk, I am just stating that as it pertains to us, it is one of the problems we have in our organization. When the Army changed to ACUs there was also the problem that they didn't have the right name tapes, we were wearing the BDU style with velcro on the back. We were getting gigged all over the place for it. We were being told we can't wear those types of patches with the ACU. Even the DIV COMM stopped us and had a session with us. We told him that was what was issued to us, that is all they have. Then he got his ACUs and was in the same spot we were. Some times you can't help it. But other times it is just flat out an I don't care attitude. And that is what has to be stopped.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2010, 06:02:34 PMWhen the Army changed to ACUs there was also the problem that they didn't have the right name tapes, we were wearing the BDU style with velcro on the back. We were getting gigged all over the place for it. We were being told we can't wear those types of patches with the ACU. Even the DIV COMM stopped us and had a session with us.
That's a case of ignorance. The green tapes and patches were actually legal with the ACU for awhile (still might be, but I don't think so, would have to check).
It's also a perfect example as to why things need to be consolidated into pubs. Leaving stuff out there as change letters is a problem. For the uniform manual, the PDF should include all the uniform related change letters in the file until the manual gets rewritten. Too many people are just putting their things together by "looking at how someone else did it."
Quote from: Eclipse on September 28, 2010, 02:14:03 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on September 28, 2010, 03:27:08 AM
I think the amount of work involved in Phil's AF badges far exceeds the amount involved in his CAP badges.
YMMV.
Not relevant to the discussion and insulting to fellow members, especially characterized as such.
"I think" - my opinion. YMMV - subject to discussion.
I was talking about
Phil's comment specifically, that
he wears
his RM badges, and not his CAP badges. I was making what I thought to be a reasonable guess as to his motivation for doing so.
Phil?
You're missing my point - there is no correlation or comparative value between CAP badges and military badges, or for that matter CAP badges and anything else.
They both represent a level of accomplishment, effort, and yes, honor, applicable only within their respective organizations.
Making the comment that one doesn't wear CAP badges on a CAP uniform to CAP activities because he worked for the military badges he wears instead is insulting to CAP members who put their time and effort into earning the only badges for which they are eligible.
I respect and appreciate military badges and service, but they are merely honorary when worn on a CAP uniform and generally irrelevant in regards to a respective member's abilities and qualifications in CAP, which is all I am interested in when I am reading your uniform's resume.
Seeing your jump wings and OEF ribbon tells me something about your history and character, and nothing about what you can do for me today.
Besides, Whatever badges you wear, your CAP badges should be in the position of honor.(On top of all others.)
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2010, 09:14:45 PM
Besides, Whatever badges you wear, your CAP badges should be in the position of honor.(On top of all others.)
That would be an oddball precedent. Military ribbons are worn above CAP ones, so wearing military badges above CAP ones is consistent. It gets screwy when you throw in CAP aviation badges, they're worn above anything else,
except the chaplains insignia which is worn above even aviation badges.
It can be a little wierd at times, and with some badges it can look really strange if you're not used to it. The one example I can think of that looks really funny is a guy that had observer wings and a CIB. Wings above CIB looks strange considering Army personnel would wear those types of badges completely reversed. You deal with it, it's how it's worn on CAP uniforms, but it still looks a little strange.
When it comes to RM most of the time if you go from one branch of the military to another such as Marines to the Army, ribbons get mingled into each other because they hold similar meanings as each others, except for higher awards such as the Silver and Bronze stars, flying cross and things of that sort. But if you have a Good Conduct medal from the Army and one From the Marines you wear the Marine Good Conduct Medal beneath the Army Good Conduct Medal Because you are now in the Army. However JROTC CAP and CGAUX all wear RM ribbons above their own, who knows why(if you know the real reason why please post it. If you are in the Army and you primary MOS was Combat Medic and you swapped to Infantry you would wear your Infantry Badge above your Medic Badge, and vise versa. So I would say you should wear your GT Badge above your CIB or CMB because now you are Ground Team, not Infantry.
EDIT: Now please do understand I know that CAP ribbons do not hold the same precedence as RM ribbons.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 28, 2010, 09:06:32 PMMaking the comment that one doesn't wear CAP badges on a CAP uniform to CAP activities because he worked for the military badges he wears instead is insulting to CAP members who put their time and effort into earning the only badges for which they are eligible.
How is it insulting? A person chooses one badge over another. What right do you have to decide what
he feels to be more important?
Is a person that has a GT badge, a medical badge, and wings insulting one particular group of people if they choose not to wear the GT badge because they feel that they worked "harder" on their doctorate and their private pilot license?
CAP members work hard on the badges they're eligible for, I'll agree. It doesn't mean that everyone has to limit themselves to only the badges that their peers have.
That is insulting. But there's also a flip side.
Now, I know that members have an option as to whether they may wear full color or subdued military badges. I have met a CAP member that felt since CAP members don't have subdued badges, then I should not be permitted wear of mine. He felt that if I really desired to wear my military badges that I should obtain them in the same blue/white colors that he had for his wings and badge. He also informed me that he felt that my badges were meaningless. I suggested that he take a scenic tour of Hades and like it.
I know that most CAP members aren't like that, but most people remember the ones that are. I seriously think that people should learn the what and why of badges, and simply respect the accomplishments without trying to decide "Mine's more important than theirs!"
I have a suspicion that I know a suggestion that's going to pop up eventually.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2010, 10:27:27 PM
if you know the real reason why please post it.
This is just a guess: it would not be right in any way, shape, or form for the Congressional Medal of Honor to be in the middle of a rack. That's what would happen if you put CAP ribbons on top if a member was awarded that medal. I think CAP badges should go on top but RM ribbons should be on top for the reason I gave.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2010, 10:27:27 PM
... and CGAUX all wear RM ribbons above their own, ...
Not correct. Military and CGAUX awards are intermixed in the order of precedence. Weird isn't it?
That is very easy to understand as I said certain ribbons do not get intermingled, but the rest do. Of course the CMOH would go above everything else. But everything else could be intermingled.
That is very interesting that CGAUX intermingles, I think it is the right thing to do.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2010, 10:27:27 PM
If you are in the Army and you primary MOS was Combat Medic and you swapped to Infantry you would wear your Infantry Badge above your Medic Badge, and vise versa.
That may be a common practice, but it's not right (as in not compliant with regulation). 670-1 classifies badges, and sets the precendent. A CIB is supposed to be always worn above anything else. It's Group 1. CMB is a Group 2, so it would go below. Like I said, I know it may be common
practice, but that's not how it should be done. If I was a recipient of a CIB/EIB in the past (hypothetically), I would still wear it above the Aviation Badge that covers my current career field.
As to whether or not you want to wear a CIB above or below your GT badge, that seems to be up to you. I couldn't find anything in 39-1 that says either way.
That is understood about badge groups. However your current MOS does get precedence. There is, or at least was when I was in, a set regulation that your current MOS skill badge (if your MOS has one) is to be worn above all other badges. If you are an Airborne or Air Assault instructor your ABN or AASLT badge takes precedence. That is according to AR 670-1 as of sometime in 2006. I am downloading the new AR 670-1 now.
Quote from: MIKE on September 28, 2010, 10:51:06 PMMilitary and CGAUX awards are intermixed in the order of precedence. Weird isn't it?
Seems wierd and annoying. Of course, it's annoying when I have to sit down and put together a rack of both Army and Air Force ribbons, especially considering that for an Army uniform they place different precedences on ribbons.
At least when it comes to adding CAP ones to a rack, they're all in one place, no figuring out where they would go in the rack.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2010, 10:53:25 PMThat is very interesting that CGAUX intermingles, I think it is the right thing to do.
CGAUX probably has hard categories on it's ribbons. We really don't. If we wanted to mix, we would have to designate what specifically is what. We have things that seem like equivalent
concepts (such as our Commander's Commendation Award being an equivalent
concept to an Army/Navy/Air Force Commendation Medal), but are those considered in the same manner? We would have to establish that.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2010, 11:04:58 PM
That is understood about badge groups. However your current MOS does get precedence. There is, or at least was when I was in, a set regulation that your current MOS skill badge (if your MOS has one) is to be worn above all other badges. If you are an Airborne or Air Assault instructor your ABN or AASLT badge takes precedence. That is according to AR 670-1 as of sometime in 2006. I am downloading the new AR 670-1 now.
The latest 670-1 I've seen is Feb 2005. I just downloaded the latest one from the G-1 website, and it also shows that date.
I've never seen the MOS priority policy. I know the Air Force encourages the current AFSC badge be worn and worn highest, but never seen the equivalent in the Army. If you have a pub later than 2005, send me a link, I need the most current one too.
I've never heard that stipulation for instructors, but I'd be willing to bet that it's a local "practice" rather than a legitimate policy. A lot of people make up their own rules when it comes to their own area of concentration.
http://usmilitary.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.usapa.army.mil/pdffiles/r670_1.pdf
Is where I found the newest one.
On a second look, Combat badges CIB and CMB and CAB are to take precedence over all others. But there is nothing that says the CIB has precedence over the CMB or CAB. Other than that it doesn't say which group is worn where, except groups 3 4 and 5 are the only ones that can be worn on the pocket flap.
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 28, 2010, 11:16:13 PM
Quote from: MIKE on September 28, 2010, 10:51:06 PMMilitary and CGAUX awards are intermixed in the order of precedence. Weird isn't it?
Seems wierd and annoying. Of course, it's annoying when I have to sit down and put together a rack of both Army and Air Force ribbons, especially considering that for an Army uniform they place different precedences on ribbons.
At least when it comes to adding CAP ones to a rack, they're all in one place, no figuring out where they would go in the rack.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2010, 10:53:25 PMThat is very interesting that CGAUX intermingles, I think it is the right thing to do.
CGAUX probably has hard categories on it's ribbons. We really don't. If we wanted to mix, we would have to designate what specifically is what. We have things that seem like equivalent concepts (such as our Commander's Commendation Award being an equivalent concept to an Army/Navy/Air Force Commendation Medal), but are those considered in the same manner? We would have to establish that.
Wasn't there at one time a stipulation that military ribbons would be worn on the CAP uniform in order of when they were earned, not by order of precendence? Seems a 39-1 that's even older than the one we're supposed to abide by said that.
Why the he77 are we asking Susie Parker to make a call that CAPM 39-1 is supposed to make? There's something really wrong when we bypass regulation and go to One. Person. Who. Makes. The. Rules.
Suzie Parker doesn't make the rules. She is knowledgable on CAP Regulations and what the "rules" are. She also attends every National Board meeting and NEC meeting to know what the changes to regulations are and the intent of the National Board.
We're asking her to be on-the-spot to make the call on gray areas sometimes. That can't possibly be her job. She may make all the NB meetings, but so does your wing commander and mine -- and they have the command authority to tell us what does and doesn't fly.
And if it is Susie's job, then why doesn't she write a new CAPM 39-1 so we all are on the same page, and to make her life easier?
It doesn't matter who's job it is to keep the 39-1 updated, it just needs to be remade all together. Current photos, current everything. Put everything in black and white so we all know what is going on. Is there any word of a new 39-1?
The basic text regarding military ribbon wear is essentially the same in all the versions of CAPM 39-1 I have (1968-2005), with a little clarifying text about JROTC/ROTC ribbons.
Quote5-4. Military Service Awards. Military service ribbons may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform provided they were awarded in writing by competent military authority. Awards of the Air Force, Army, Navy, Marine Corps, or Coast Guard will be worn in the order prescribed by the awarding service, subject to the following: In all cases of relative priority, Air Force awards will take precedence. See Table 5-3. Awards for wars, campaigns, expeditions etc., will be worn in chronological sequence.
a. Three JROTC/ROTC ribbons awarded by military departments may be worn following all other ribbons (except foreign ribbons) while the member concerned is participating in the JROTC/ROTC program. When the member is no longer participating in the JROTC/ROTC program, JROTC/ROTC ribbons will be removed.
Some time in the '80s, the military ribbon precedence table was added, subject to the above.
Quote from: SarDragon on September 28, 2010, 08:24:42 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 28, 2010, 02:14:03 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on September 28, 2010, 03:27:08 AM
I think the amount of work involved in Phil's AF badges far exceeds the amount involved in his CAP badges.
YMMV.
Not relevant to the discussion and insulting to fellow members, especially characterized as such.
"I think" - my opinion. YMMV - subject to discussion.
I was talking about Phil's comment specifically, that he wears his RM badges, and not his CAP badges. I was making what I thought to be a reasonable guess as to his motivation for doing so.
Phil?
Well, let's see here Eclipse, between CAP and the Air Force I'm entitled to wear a total of five badges/wings.
I only wear two at a time and it's my choice which two to wear.
And since I had to do a whole lot more to earn and keep my Air Force Wings/badge, I wear those.
Thanks, Phil. Thought I had it right. ;)
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2010, 10:27:27 PM
However JROTC CAP and CGAUX all wear RM ribbons above their own[lots of snipping]
ROTC may do this (I'm almost positive they do, I just don't know for certain), but in my experience in JROTC, RM ribbons are unauthorized for cadets to wear. In fact, I've seen literature saying that RM devices/ribbons of ANY sort on JROTC uniforms is illegal.
Quote from: DakRadz on September 29, 2010, 02:52:19 AMROTC may do this (I'm almost positive they do, I just don't know for certain), but in my experience in JROTC, RM ribbons are unauthorized for cadets to wear. In fact, I've seen literature saying that RM devices/ribbons of ANY sort on JROTC uniforms is illegal.
I would suspect that JROTC members that have earned any military ribbons/badges is almost unheard of. Not saying impossible, but extremely unlikely.
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 29, 2010, 02:57:40 AM
Quote from: DakRadz on September 29, 2010, 02:52:19 AMROTC may do this (I'm almost positive they do, I just don't know for certain), but in my experience in JROTC, RM ribbons are unauthorized for cadets to wear. In fact, I've seen literature saying that RM devices/ribbons of ANY sort on JROTC uniforms is illegal.
I would suspect that JROTC members that have earned any military ribbons/badges is almost unheard of. Not saying impossible, but extremely unlikely.
Very true, sir; apparently the Reserves cadets were enough of an issue that they plainly spelled out no RM anything on JROTC uniforms. But other than those who complete a Reserve Basic between 11th and 12th grade, none would/should have earned RM ribbons and such.
Quote from: DakRadz on September 29, 2010, 02:52:19 AM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2010, 10:27:27 PM
However JROTC CAP and CGAUX all wear RM ribbons above their own[lots of snipping]
ROTC may do this (I'm almost positive they do, I just don't know for certain), but in my experience in JROTC, RM ribbons are unauthorized for cadets to wear. In fact, I've seen literature saying that RM devices/ribbons of ANY sort on JROTC uniforms is illegal.
JROTC instructors are the ones that would wear the RM ribbons, High schoolers with the exception of those seniors who did the split entry option wouldn't have the chance to get RM ribbons.
CAP cadets can't wear any RM ribbons or badges period. This being because you can't be a cadet while RM.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 29, 2010, 03:13:33 AM
Quote from: DakRadz on September 29, 2010, 02:52:19 AM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2010, 10:27:27 PM
However JROTC CAP and CGAUX all wear RM ribbons above their own[lots of snipping]
ROTC may do this (I'm almost positive they do, I just don't know for certain), but in my experience in JROTC, RM ribbons are unauthorized for cadets to wear. In fact, I've seen literature saying that RM devices/ribbons of ANY sort on JROTC uniforms is illegal.
JROTC instructors are the ones that would wear the RM ribbons, High schoolers with the exception of those seniors who did the split entry option wouldn't have the chance to get RM ribbons.
CAP cadets can't wear any RM ribbons or badges period. This being because you can't be a cadet while RM.
Not true, a Cadet can also be in the Reserves/National Guard
edit: found apropriate reg. 39-2 sec. 2-2
See Paragraph 2-5 (quoted below) of CAPR 39-2 Civil Air Patrol Membership 16 JUNE 2004 INCLUDES CHANGE 3, 1 OCTOBER 2009 .
2-5. Upon Joining the Armed Forces. Cadets who join any branch of the active duty Armed Forces (this does not include military service academies) will furnish NHQ CAP/LMMR written notification along with a CAPF 12 and fingerprint card, at which time they will be automatically transferred to senior membership status.
No they can't be cadets on active duty, but they can as reservists. Which I don't get at all. If you can't be married as a cadet then how in the world can you be in the military.
That being said if a cadet went to training at say... Fort Dix, to prepare to deploy, they would then not be able to be cadets any more regardless of being in the Reserves or NG.
The point I'm making is that a Cadet in fact can wear RM badges and ribbons that he/she has earned while in the National Guard/Reserves.
I think the reasoning for extending Cadet membership to members of the Reserves/Guard is that many of them are full time students while serving.
Quote from: tsrup on September 29, 2010, 03:30:29 AM
The point I'm making is that a Cadet in fact can wear RM badges and ribbons that he/she has earned while in the National Guard/Reserves.
I think the reasoning for extending Cadet membership to members of the Reserves/Guard is that many of them are full time students while serving.
Sir, I must go to bed- but check 39-1. I'm fairly certain that CAP also has a "no RM items on cadets" clause/policy.
Goodnight and happy hunting!
Quite a few active duty are full time students as well.
I have seen CAP Cadets wear RM insignia like Jump Wings, the CIB, the German Armed Forces Badge for Military Proficiency, German Armed Forces Badge of Marksmanship and many RM ribbons.
These were reservists/guardsmen who were activated for tours in the sandbox or in ROTC and earned them via their service in the reserve components. They remained reservists/guardsmen during their tours, so they could remain as cadets.
There was an example of a news letter item I published on a young man who had earned his Spaatz and had just gotten back from Iraq. he served in I believe a guard unit, earned a CIB, jump wings during his training and sported several decorations (ARCOM with a V was his top award.)
He was wearing these awards along with his CAP stuff as he recived his Spaatz award from an Army 2 star.
I got complaints about publishing this piece because the cadet was out of uniform. The complaining members got cups of STFU from their Wing CC's and nothing else was said about it. :)
Quote from: DakRadz on September 29, 2010, 03:32:22 AM
Quote from: tsrup on September 29, 2010, 03:30:29 AM
The point I'm making is that a Cadet in fact can wear RM badges and ribbons that he/she has earned while in the National Guard/Reserves.
I think the reasoning for extending Cadet membership to members of the Reserves/Guard is that many of them are full time students while serving.
Sir, I must go to bed- but check 39-1. I'm fairly certain that CAP also has a "no RM items on cadets" clause/policy.
Goodnight and happy hunting!
5-4. Military Service Awards. Military service ribbons may be worn on the CAP uniform provided they were awarded in writing by competent military authority. Awards of the Air Force, Army, Navy, Marine Corps, or Coast Guard will be worn in the order prescribed by the awarding service, subject to the following: In all cases of relative priority, Air Force awards will take precedence. See Table 5-3. Awards for wars, campaigns, expeditions etc., will be worn in chronological sequence.
a.Three JROTC/ROTC ribbons awarded by military departments may be worn following all other
ribbons (except foreign ribbons) while the member concerned is participating in the JROTC/ROTC
program.
When the member is no longer participating in the JROTC/ROTC program, JROTC/ROTC ribbons will be removed.I see no restriction from Cadets wearing the above items, and find it hard to believe that we would restrict a serving cadet from wearing his/her ribbons badges from Guard/Reserve duty while allowing cadets to wear JROTC/ROTC ribbons.
though stranger things have happened as a result of 39-1
A cadet in the Reserves or NG cannot deploy and stay cadets. 39-2 states
Cadets who join the National Guard or Reserves are not required to become seniors upon attending "basic training. " Regardless of the wording of the orders, "basic training" is not interpreted by CAP as "extended active duty." However, National Guard or Reserve members who enter "extended active duty" are not eligible to be cadets and must become senior members.
When Reserves and NG are deployed that is classified as extended active duty.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 29, 2010, 03:41:55 AMWhen Reserves and NG are deployed that is classified as extended active duty.
I agree, and wonder why there are cadets that end up deploying and remaining cadets. It's one thing for a cadet to have a boot camp ribbon, and the "give away" awards like National Defense and GWOT-S, but one with a CIB and combat jump wings is another animal altogether.
The only thing I can think of is that National considers an active duty enlistment as "extended active duty." Can't say I agree with the thought process. It needs to be clarified.
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 29, 2010, 03:56:14 AM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 29, 2010, 03:41:55 AMWhen Reserves and NG are deployed that is classified as extended active duty.
I agree, and wonder why there are cadets that end up deploying and remaining cadets. It's one thing for a cadet to have a boot camp ribbon, and the "give away" awards like National Defense and GWOT-S, but one with a CIB and combat jump wings is another animal altogether.
The only thing I can think of is that National considers an active duty enlistment as "extended active duty." Can't say I agree with the thought process. It needs to be clarified.
It is a different beast, Cadets shouldn't be wearing the CIB or campaign ribbons and things of that sort. Even going to Benning or Bragg for jump school is extended active duty. Now an EIB could be achieved at the home station. But that is it.
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 29, 2010, 03:56:14 AM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 29, 2010, 03:41:55 AMWhen Reserves and NG are deployed that is classified as extended active duty.
I agree, and wonder why there are cadets that end up deploying and remaining cadets. It's one thing for a cadet to have a boot camp ribbon, and the "give away" awards like National Defense and GWOT-S, but one with a CIB and combat jump wings is another animal altogether.
The only thing I can think of is that National considers an active duty enlistment as "extended active duty." Can't say I agree with the thought process. It needs to be clarified.
They stay cadets because no one tells National that Cadet Johnny has been activated for 18 months for a deployment.
If the cadet or even their Squadron Commander had a bit of integrity they would notify National.
Quote from: PHall on September 29, 2010, 04:09:18 AM
They stay cadets because no one tells National that Cadet Johnny has been activated for 18 months for a deployment.
If the cadet or even their Squadron Commander had a bit of integrity they would notify National.
You can start with this guy here.....
Quote from: CAP Producer on September 29, 2010, 03:35:05 AM
I got complaints about publishing this piece because the cadet was out of uniform. The complaining members got cups of STFU from their Wing CC's and nothing else was said about it. :)
To be perfectly honest, the Cadet was out of uniform, because he should have been wearing a Senior Member uniform. So instead of getting crap from raising legitimate questions, the complaining members should have been credited with being good observers!!
Like others have said.....one thing to go to Basic Training, it is entirely and totally different to go to WAR. Going to kill others in combat should equate to becoming a Senior Member. I am curious that if this Cadet did in fact deploy......how did he stay active? I bet National even knew he was deployed. So we are now allowed to pick and choose what regulations we wish to follow??
This is not about that guy and his Spaatz or his military badges, but about the integrity of the Senior Members who personally knew him and who knew the rules.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 29, 2010, 04:07:23 AMEven going to Benning or Bragg for jump school is extended active duty.
This would seem to be a matter of personal viewpoint. If basic training for a Guard enlistment isn't considered extended active duty, why would jump school (which is only three weeks) be considered extended active duty?
Of course, the problem here is the personal viewpoint. To eliminate the personal viewpoints, the reg needs clarification. If National were to say that anything over the length of IET/AIT is active duty, then that's something to work with. We may disagree with National's definition, but if they spell it out, we salute and execute because we have a hard rule to work with.
Jump school is extended active duty because it is not a job required school. It is an elective school. The ONLY TWO units that REQUIRE jump status is 82nd ABN and being stationed in ITALY. It is considered TDY for AD soldiers, but for reserve and NG soldiers it is EAD because the service status is changed to AD on the orders.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 29, 2010, 02:45:06 PM
Jump school is extended active duty because it is not a job required school. It is an elective school. The ONLY TWO units that REQUIRE jump status is 82nd ABN and being stationed in ITALY. It is considered TDY for AD soldiers, but for reserve and NG soldiers it is EAD because the service status is changed to AD on the orders.
Ranger and Special Forces units all require it. 40th division ARNG has an infantry scout company that is also airborne. 82nd may be the only full division that requires it but we have smaller units all over the place.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 29, 2010, 02:45:06 PM...but for reserve and NG soldiers it is EAD because the service status is changed to AD on the orders
You equate active duty to "extended." I wouldn't. Even when a Guard troop goes to an AD school, they're still on Title 32 orders (referred to as Full Time National Guard Duty) which are regarded differently than Title 10 ones. It gets a little funky because Active Duty Special Work (ADSW) is considered "active duty" (and are Title 10 orders) and not "full time National Guard" duty.
Due to the fact that we even have a difference in opinion shows that it needs to be spelled out in the regs. If you were the National CC and decided that anything labeled "active duty" means "extended active duty" then we'd have a clarification and a hard rule. We need to spell it out, and not leave it to opinion.
Your right, it does need spelled out, that is why we need to have the updates in the regs so that it is no longer up for opinion.
Well, back to my original question, does anyone know of a place to order white on blue skill badges that I don't have to call and special order them?
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 29, 2010, 04:59:07 PM
Well, back to my original question, does anyone know of a place to order white on blue skill badges that I don't have to call and special order them?
Fortunately for me all I need are basic jump wings which are probably the most common military badge. And considering how California seems to have gotten away from senior members using BDU pretty much for anything at all I'm wondering if thats really an issue.
According to the CAWG supplement to the 39-1
It is the policy of CAWG that the CAWG GT uniform is authorized for wear by members
actively participating (as defined below) as a member of a Ground Team or UDF team on a
ground search sortie (training or actual). At all other times members must wear other uniforms
in accordance with CAPM 39-1. When appropriate, it is recommended the member convert the
CAWG GT uniform to the CAP Blue Field Uniform by wearing the Blue BDU Blouse with
appropriate patches.
But that says that otherwise you should wear the appropriate uniform, meaning that you can still wear the BDU uniform if you wish. 39-1 states what is and is not allowed as an over all. They say we can wear BDU uniforms if you meet height and weight standards. So I will.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 29, 2010, 03:24:04 PM
Your right, it does need spelled out, that is why we need to have the updates in the regs so that it is no longer up for opinion.
Extended Active Duty is Active Duty Tour of 180 days or more. You get all of the bennies if you're on EAD.
Why do you think most Guard/Reserve Active Duty tours are 179 days?
Quote from: PHall on September 30, 2010, 03:25:42 AM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 29, 2010, 03:24:04 PM
Your right, it does need spelled out, that is why we need to have the updates in the regs so that it is no longer up for opinion.
Extended Active Duty is Active Duty Tour of 180 days or more. You get all of the bennies if you're on EAD.
Why do you think most Guard/Reserve Active Duty tours are 179 days?
By tours do you mean deployments??
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 30, 2010, 05:01:11 AM
Quote from: PHall on September 30, 2010, 03:25:42 AM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 29, 2010, 03:24:04 PM
Your right, it does need spelled out, that is why we need to have the updates in the regs so that it is no longer up for opinion.
Extended Active Duty is Active Duty Tour of 180 days or more. You get all of the bennies if you're on EAD.
Why do you think most Guard/Reserve Active Duty tours are 179 days?
By tours do you mean deployments??
Not necessarily. Any assignment exceeding 179 days counts.
What PHall said was most Guard/Reserves tours are 179 days. PHall are you talking all tours including deployments?
Deployments are a totally different animal. A deployment usually involves the entire unit being mobilized.
Active Duty "tours" come in several flavors.
There's Active Duty For Training, a School Tour where are going to a formal school (i.e. Airborne School or Air Assault School), Special Tour, Annual Tour (i.e. Summer Camp), and Active Guard/Reserve Tour.
Which one you're on depends on the purpose for your tour and where the money is coming from.
Ok PHall, I got you now. In normal RM speak a school attendance isn't known as a tour,is usually just simply known as TDY,because that is just what it is. To most in the RM (at least Army) tours are from either enlistment date to Re-up/ discharge, or deployments.
I'm still trying to figure out who the Fake Military is...
Quote from: JC004 on September 30, 2010, 05:38:43 AM
I'm still trying to figure out who the Fake Military is...
RM means Regular Military, not real military.
Au contraire. On here RM means Real Military™.
Quote from: JC004 on September 30, 2010, 05:38:43 AM
I'm still trying to figure out who the Fake Military is...
The posers, wannabes, and book-educated "experts" who have never spent a minute on active duty, but think they know as much as, or more than, those who have.
Quote from: SarDragon on September 30, 2010, 05:44:17 AM
Au contraire. On here RM means Real Military™.
Quote from: JC004 on September 30, 2010, 05:38:43 AM
I'm still trying to figure out who the Fake Military is...
The posers, wannabes, and book-educated "experts" who have never spent a minute on active duty, but think they know as much as, or more than, those who have.
That's certainly good by me. I just dislike when Real Military is the opposite of Civil Air Patrol. Certainly we have frauds and all but I disagree that Civil Air Patrol as a whole is the Fake Military. Its goal is to be the auxiliary of a military branch, not the military itself. But a Real Military/Fake Military attitude is counterproductive to making CAP part of the AF team, not unlike the USCG Aux is with its parent branch.
I disagree as well.
The term is generally used on this board to differentiate between professional military personnel who are bound by law to comply with various regulations, receive monetary compensation, and issued uniforms, standardized training, and deployment orders enforced by the writ of law, vs. CAP members (and similar organizations) where compliance is voluntary, there is little to know compensation, equipment has to be purchased at the member's expense, and we have to ask really nice for people to show up.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 28, 2010, 09:06:32 PM
You're missing my point - there is no correlation or comparative value between CAP badges and military badges, or for that matter CAP badges and anything else.
I disagree.
Quote
They both represent a level of accomplishment, effort, and yes, honor, applicable only within their respective organizations.
No. If military experience was irrelevant in CAP we wouldn't have the provisions we have for prior military service.
Quote
Making the comment that one doesn't wear CAP badges on a CAP uniform to CAP activities because he worked for the military badges he wears instead is insulting to CAP members who put their time and effort into earning the only badges for which they are eligible.
It shouldn't be insulting. If you're a person who's earned badges from both then you'd understand a little more the difference in the amount of work between the two.
Quote
I respect and appreciate military badges and service, but they are merely honorary when worn on a CAP uniform and generally irrelevant in regards to a respective member's abilities and qualifications in CAP, which is all I am interested in when I am reading your uniform's resume.
I think military badges on the Air Force's uniform are neither honorary nor irrelevant.
Quote
Seeing your jump wings and OEF ribbon tells me something about your history and character, and nothing about what you can do for me today.
Then you have a very closed minded view of what the guys wearing military badges can do for you today.
I got a few done a nametags4u.com but they were hella expensive. Ive heard that 1800nametapes.com does them as well for considerably less.
Quote from: GroundHawg on October 01, 2010, 11:21:14 AM
I got a few done a nametags4u.com but they were hella expensive. Ive heard that 1800nametapes.com does them as well for considerably less.
Yes, and 10x better quality. Not sure what badges you're looking for but both Airborne and Air Assault from Nametags4u SUCK!
From 1800nametapes...(http://www.box.net/shared/static/cv8sjdu5s4.jpg)
There's always this option...
[smg id=262]
That is what I'm going for those are really nicely done. Thank you.
Looking for CIB AASLT and Pathfinder. I'm on the 1800nametapes.com but all it is is a bunch of links to other websites. Am I doing something wrong?
UPDATE: found out what I was doing wrong, it's 1800nametape.com there is no s at the end of tape.They ship really fast, they said they are getting swamped with the new multicam that USAF if ordering mass quantities of because they are doing a full switch over from the ABU... or so she said.
1800nametape.com, drop the s.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on October 01, 2010, 02:14:19 PM
... they said they are getting swamped with the new multicam that USAF if ordering mass quantities of because they are doing a full switch over from the ABU... or so she said.
Yeah, false. It has made clear that
ONLY AF ground combat personnel (TACP, PJ, CCT, SF, etc.) will be using MultiCam
only in Afghanistan and will most likely not go into effect until early next year.
That said, I've got mine...
[smg id=256]
That's what I've heard, and what I thought. All ground combat troops, military wide, should be wearing multicam. It is much more effective. Except for the Army ACU, in Iraq, it gets so nasty and dirty so fast with the dust, it blends in to the terrain so well when it's nasty. lol
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on October 01, 2010, 03:05:28 PM
Except for the Army ACU, in Iraq, it gets so nasty and dirty so fast with the dust, it blends in to the terrain so well when it's nasty. lol
Is that by design? :P
NO, not design intent at all. They were actually meant to stay clean and stain free... Fat lot of good that did. It was intended to be used on the battle field and come clean enough to wear and look good in garrison. They just didn't work out so well. When there was something on the uniform that would normally stain one spot, it didn't but it would spread over the whole uniform and change the color of the entire uniform.
My ACU's (and ABU's for that matter) look like a jesters outfit. The front of the pants, the butts, and shirt sleeves are nasty from wiping sweat on them. The backs and sides of the legs are pretty clean from being in either a MRAP or forklift all day, and the body of the shirts are clean because I had armor over them alot, or didnt wear a top at all. My boots looked like they were made with calico cat fur. I had stains of all types on them. And the ABU's were sweltering on top of that. >:( My rumored next deployment is to Bagram, hopefully the Multicam will hold up better.
The multicam is supposed to hold up much better, not to mention if you buy a set or two yourself you can get them in the light weight ripstop cotton. But that ACU uniform is junk isn't it?
Well, I just ordered 3 sets of white on blue CIB and AASLT badges this morning and I checked my email and already have a tracking number with UPS ground. All together with shipping cost a total of $20.00 flat. I am very impressed with their speed and i hope their quality matches what I expect. I will upload pictures of them as soon as I get them, so that anyone curious can see their work. I just hope their CIB is of the same quality that the ABN wings and AASLT wings look from the picture above. Thank you for the link.
Quote from: Stonewall on October 01, 2010, 12:32:21 PM
From 1800nametapes...
(http://www.box.net/shared/static/cv8sjdu5s4.jpg)
There's always this option...
[smg id=262]
As it shows above, it has the fourth badge on bottom, could three badges be split between above and below? If so, should I put the AASLT below or the GT badge below?
Quote from: Stonewall on October 01, 2010, 12:32:21 PM
There's always this option...
[smg id=262]
*sigh* The tower of power....
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on October 02, 2010, 11:21:33 PMAs it shows above, it has the fourth badge on bottom, could three badges be split between above and below? If so, should I put the AASLT below or the GT badge below?
Stonewall put that together as a joke. That configuration is not authorized. Be nice if it was.
Oh, ok. I think that would look kinda weird having four badges above your name tape.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on October 03, 2010, 01:40:08 AM
Oh, ok. I think that would look kinda weird having four badges above your name tape.
You can't have the one on your pocket flap either.
Quote from: PHall on October 03, 2010, 01:45:13 AM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on October 03, 2010, 01:40:08 AM
Oh, ok. I think that would look kinda weird having four badges above your name tape.
You can't have the one on your pocket flap either.
I understand that now, as I said, it would just look weird to have four badges above the name tape. They would go above the collar, unless we were allowed to put them side by side.
I still can't find where 4 badges are allowed on the BDU at all.............
Quote from: cap235629 on October 03, 2010, 03:11:55 AM
I still can't find where 4 badges are allowed on the BDU at all.............
...because they aren't. See Hawk200's most recent post. RTFM.
Again,
So far as the BDU is concerned, there is a limit of four badges/ devices that may be worn. according to the 39-1 page 105 paragraph 1 6-2 policy A maximum of four badges/devices may be worn
on the AF-style uniforms.
Now the 39-1 does have a different regulation for the blues. The blues can only have two badges above the ribbons.
I got the patches in today, just having ordered them Friday. They are ok, the AASLT is the better of the two looking just like the normal subdued badge. But, the CIB is a better than I expected but could use some work.
(//img%5D%3Cbr%20/%3E%5Bimg%20alt=%5Dhttp://captalk.net/MGalleryItem.php?id=263)
Is that the correct color?
Or did the lighting just mess with it a bit, they do look like a darker shade of blue.
It is the light that messed with it. They are almost perfect... just barely darker. Not hardly noticeable. I will wash it tonightafter I put them on I'll be washing it so they should lighten up just a bit. But on the uniform they look good as is.
Also, looking at the picture at the top of the page, I have seen a lot of BDUs done like that with the badges spread so far apart. The 39-1 says to measure 1/2 inch between badges, measured from white to white, not blue to blue.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on October 05, 2010, 06:31:37 PM
Also, looking at the picture at the top of the page, I have seen a lot of BDUs done like that with the badges spread so far apart. The 39-1 says to measure 1/2 inch between badges, measured from white to white, not blue to blue.
Except for the badge that is just above the branch tape. Blue to white on that one. Then white to white for the rest.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on October 05, 2010, 07:03:56 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on October 05, 2010, 06:31:37 PM
Also, looking at the picture at the top of the page, I have seen a lot of BDUs done like that with the badges spread so far apart. The 39-1 says to measure 1/2 inch between badges, measured from white to white, not blue to blue.
Except for the badge that is just above the branch tape. Blue to white on that one. Then white to white for the rest.
Cite please. My understanding was that it was blue-to-blue for the first one, white-to-white for the second one.
39-1 Page 105:
6-6. Description and Proper Placement on the BDU, Utility Uniform, Field Uniform and Flight
Suits. All white on blue insignia will have 1/8 inch of blue showing at the widest and tallest point of
the insignia, except the Civil Air Patrol tape and the nametape. These two will be the width of the BDU
or field uniform pocket. When placing multiple insignia in the same area, measure from the insignia to
insignia not blue to blue. For more instructions see Chapters 2 and 4. Figures 6-2, 6-3, 6-10, 6-11, and
6-12 illustrate the white on blue grade insignia. Figures 6-16 through 6-20 illustrate the various insignia
that may be worn on these uniforms. Table 6-4 outlines the placement of these items.
6-7. US Military Badges. CAP members may wear only the US military badges authorized
Quote from: Eclipse on October 05, 2010, 07:47:16 PM
Cite please. My understanding was that it was blue-to-blue for the first one, white-to-white for the second one.
39-1 Page 105:
6-6. Description and Proper Placement on the BDU, Utility Uniform, Field Uniform and Flight
Suits. All white on blue insignia will have 1/8 inch of blue showing at the widest and tallest point of
the insignia, except the Civil Air Patrol tape and the nametape. These two will be the width of the BDU
or field uniform pocket. When placing multiple insignia in the same area, measure from the insignia to
insignia not blue to blue. For more instructions see Chapters 2 and 4. Figures 6-2, 6-3, 6-10, 6-11, and
6-12 illustrate the white on blue grade insignia. Figures 6-16 through 6-20 illustrate the various insignia
that may be worn on these uniforms. Table 6-4 outlines the placement of these items.
6-7. US Military Badges. CAP members may wear only the US military badges authorized
You just quoted the cite. Insignia is embroidered in white. It's a half inch up from the tape, then half inch between
insignia. The manual is a little funky on how it addresses. It doesn't state the difference between what tapes are as opposed to what badges are.
IIRC, the C/CC at my basic encampment said something like blue of nametape to blue of first badge, then blue to white, then white to white.
I have been told by many that the translation is it would be from white to white on all badges to include the name tape.
[img alt=]http://captalk.net/MGalleryItem.php?id=265[/img]
The picture you have above is wrong.
If there is supposed to be 1/2 inch white-to-white, the picture above is only 1/4 inch apart.
1/8 inch from white to edge of blue.
1/4 inch space
1/8 inch blue to white
-----------
1/2 inch white to white.
Quote from: HGjunkie on October 05, 2010, 07:55:29 PM
IIRC, the C/CC at my basic encampment said something like blue of nametape to blue of first badge, then blue to white, then white to white.
I believe that is the consensus and also how most members interprete the reg.
No, I measured them. They are 1/2 inch white to white.
6-6. Description and Proper Placement on the BDU, Utility Uniform, Field Uniform and Flight
Suits. All white on blue insignia will have 1/8 inch of blue showing at the widest and tallest point of
the insignia, except the Civil Air Patrol tape and the nametape. These two will be the width of the BDU
or field uniform pocket. When placing multiple insignia in the same area, measure from the insignia to
insignia not blue to blue.
Note, it says MEASURE FROM WHITE TO WHITE NOT BLUE TO BLUE. It says nothing about 1/4 inch space from blue to blue.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on October 05, 2010, 08:50:55 PM
No, I measured them. They are 1/2 inch white to white.
6-6. Description and Proper Placement on the BDU, Utility Uniform, Field Uniform and Flight
Suits. All white on blue insignia will have 1/8 inch of blue showing at the widest and tallest point of
the insignia, except the Civil Air Patrol tape and the nametape. These two will be the width of the BDU
or field uniform pocket. When placing multiple insignia in the same area, measure from the insignia to
insignia not blue to blue.
Note, it says MEASURE FROM WHITE TO WHITE NOT BLUE TO BLUE. It says nothing about 1/4 inch space from blue to blue.
Right, but the measurements listed would require a 1/4 inch space between them.
If it is supposed to be 1/8 inch from the white to the edge of the blue and they're stacked on top of each other, the measurement must be 1/4 inch, unless the white to blue edge isn't measured correctly.
Either way, something is wrong.
I get what your saying now. Thank you.
The cloth insignia are placed in exactly the same manner as metal insignia would be placed. The first one is measured from the top of the tape to the white part of the first insignia, and then white to white after that. See CAPM 39-1, Table 6-4 for further info.
Y'all are making this entirely too complicated, IMHO.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on October 05, 2010, 08:50:55 PM
No, I measured them. They are 1/2 inch white to white.
6-6. Description and Proper Placement on the BDU, Utility Uniform, Field Uniform and Flight
Suits. All white on blue insignia will have 1/8 inch of blue showing at the widest and tallest point of
the insignia, except the Civil Air Patrol tape and the nametape. These two will be the width of the BDU
or field uniform pocket. When placing multiple insignia in the same area, measure from the insignia to
insignia not blue to blue.
Note, it says MEASURE FROM WHITE TO WHITE NOT BLUE TO BLUE. It says nothing about 1/4 inch space from blue to blue.
From the Air Assault to the CIB looks right, but the Air Assault from tape to badge looks too close. The white to white doesn't include the nametape lettering. I know some people think it does.
The way the pub is written is funky. The nametape is not a badge, and the way it writes it as "insignia" isn't consistent with the insignia that constitutes a badge.
No badges should be flush to the tape.
Quote from: SarDragon on October 05, 2010, 08:58:49 PM
The cloth insignia are placed in exactly the same manner as metal insignia would be placed.
That's probably what I should have said.
The nametape is not a badge, and the way it writes it as "insignia" isn't consistent with the insignia that constitutes a badge.
No badges should be flush to the tape.
That is kind of odd, I know Army Air Force and their ROTC and JROTC counter parts make them all flush.
Why all the questions?
The reg, when fully read, is specific about proper placement. [Emphasis mine.]
Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Table 6-4Cloth Name Tape (ultramarine blue)
embroidered in white cotton thread
centered immediately above the right breast pocket of the BDU or field uniform shirt and BDU or dark blue field jacket.
Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Table 6-4CAP Aviation Badges (CAPR 35-6)
embroidered in white cotton thread
centered 1/2 inch above the cloth "Civil Air Patrol" tape worn over the left breast pocket of BDU, field uniform and BDU or dark blue field jacket.
Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Para 6-66-6. Description and Proper Placement on the BDU, Utility Uniform, Field Uniform and Flight
Suits. All white on blue insignia will have 1/8 inch of blue showing at the widest and tallest point of the insignia, except the Civil Air Patrol tape and the nametape. These two will be the width of the BDU or field uniform pocket. When placing multiple insignia in the same area, measure from the insignia to insignia not blue to blue. For more instructions see Chapters 2 and 4. Figures 6-2, 6-3, 6-10, 6-11, and 6-12 illustrate the white on blue grade insignia. Figures 6-16 through 6-20 illustrate the various insignia that may be worn on these uniforms. Table 6-4 outlines the placement of these items.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on October 05, 2010, 09:02:50 PM
The nametape is not a badge, and the way it writes it as "insignia" isn't consistent with the insignia that constitutes a badge.
No badges should be flush to the tape.
That is kind of odd, I know Army Air Force and their ROTC and JROTC counter parts make them all flush.
We didn't do that when I was in the Air Force. I've known a few people that got "spoken to" when badges were flush to tapes on BDUs. Not done on ABUs, either.
In line with what SarDragon said, an easy way to tell spacing is to pin the metal equivalent directly on top of the embroidered insignia. If the spacing isn't half inch between the tapes and then the badges, then it's off.
The Army wears it's first badge at a 1/4". That almost always ends up with the badge practically flush to the tape. That's not how the Air Force does it. The Air Force way can look wierd, but it's simply different.
Fixed it. Thank you on the clarification.
Quote from: SarDragon on October 05, 2010, 08:58:49 PM
The cloth insignia are placed in exactly the same manner as metal insignia would be placed. The first one is measured from the top of the tape to the white part of the first insignia, and then white to white after that. See CAPM 39-1, Table 6-4 for further info.
Y'all are making this entirely too complicated, IMHO.
Seriously - 10 years and I just got that as well.
Great explanation!
Some better terminology in the 39-1 along with better illustration would be absolutely great! I think that NHQ should task someone with real knowledge of how the uniform should look and what would fit better would be really helpful. New updated pictures would be great also.
I am going to start a thread for any and all questions about the uniform. I have a few other questions, and I'm sure that others do too.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on October 06, 2010, 05:05:16 AM
Some better terminology in the 39-1 along with better illustration would be absolutely great! I think that NHQ should task someone with real knowledge of how the uniform should look and what would fit better would be really helpful. New updated pictures would be great also.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Hmmm. Just got done looking through the manuals for CAP and USAF, and not even the USAF manual specifies how the badges are measured, just says to center 1/2 inch from nametape.
Quote from: SarDragon on October 05, 2010, 08:58:49 PM
The cloth insignia are placed in exactly the same manner as metal insignia would be placed. The first one is measured from the top of the tape to the white part of the first insignia, and then white to white after that. See CAPM 39-1, Table 6-4 for further info.
Y'all are making this entirely too complicated, IMHO.
I guess that makes sense. When I finally am able to get my GTM3 signed off, i'll worry about it then.
(http://www.cadetstuff.org/images/nin_uni.JPG)
IIRC, the bottom badge was "cheated" ever so slightly downward to make it look more correct, as going 1/2" "top of tape to bottom of white" and then 1/2" "top of white to bottom of white" made the spacing between the bottom badge and the nametape look wrong.
And my rule is "if it looks wrong, it probably is wrong."
Wore it like that for years, nobody threw a stitch gauge on it to check, because it "looked right."
Wow, those are nicely done, the edges of your badges are really nice and straight. did you do them yourself? I do my own now, because I can't find any where that sews patches straight, I can't either, but I think I get just as close as they do, and it's free.
I've sewn my own insignia on my uniforms since I was 14 years old and my mom taught me how to use the sewing machine. :)
I learned a secret a number of years ago to correctly folding insignia. A little elmers water soluble spray adhesive helps with the folding. Trim the insignia so you don't have a ton of overlap in the back between the folds, give it a quick spray, fold two parallel sides accurately (and quickly.. you can reposition it if you're moving fast and you need to make a slight adjustment) and let it dry under a weight of some sort (to keep it flat). Spritz it again and fold the other two parallel sides, and again, let it dry under something to keep it flat.
Now, if you want, spray the back again, and position it on the uniform for sewing. The water soluble adhesive washes out eventually.
I find that I get much more square insignia this way, and much more accurately placed than with pinning.
Very nice, thank you. I have tried it with thin cardboard inside but that didn't work out well.
Brief necropost, rather than hijack another guy's thread.
So the discussion about having custom white-on-blue military insignia made IAW 39-1 sparked a question that I would pose to the esteemed body of CAPTalk.
Would the aeronautical insignia (Pilot, Flight Officer, Aircrewman, Flight Surgeon, etc. but not the Air Warfare) of the US Naval services (Navy, Marine Corps, Coast Guard) be properly rendered in white thread on blue field, or would yellow/gold thread be more appropriate given the gold color of the insignia?
Quote from: BGNightfall on April 10, 2011, 11:44:37 AM
Brief necropost, rather than hijack another guy's thread.
So the discussion about having custom white-on-blue military insignia made IAW 39-1 sparked a question that I would pose to the esteemed body of CAPTalk.
Would the aeronautical insignia (Pilot, Flight Officer, Aircrewman, Flight Surgeon, etc. but not the Air Warfare) of the US Naval services (Navy, Marine Corps, Coast Guard) be properly rendered in white thread on blue field, or would yellow/gold thread be more appropriate given the gold color of the insignia?
I would think yellow would be appropriate; look at the grade insignia for Majors.
I could go either way. On utilities devices are subdued black on OD, but if you were to use coverall or ODU insignia they would be "gold" on blue.