So I read 10 Cadets from Alabama JROTC were participating in CAP's Cadet Officer School. Is this reciprocal?? Did JROTC pay to send the JROTC Cadets or did the USAF cover their costs. I would be really upset if the Air Force payed their way there, when I payed for two of my Cadets to go this year!!
LINK
http://www.capvolunteernow.com/headline_news.cfm/civil_air_patrol_jrotc_cadets_gather_at_maxwell_for_premier_leadership_course?show=news&newsID=8257 (http://www.capvolunteernow.com/headline_news.cfm/civil_air_patrol_jrotc_cadets_gather_at_maxwell_for_premier_leadership_course?show=news&newsID=8257)
Thought I saw something about some JROTC activities being opened to CAP cadets as well.
I looked at the O flights for the JROTC cadets and CAP provided money for the flight when it is set up. Hope I am correct on that.
I would hope that CAP would pay for their own cadets over others.
Quote from: Seabee219 on July 14, 2010, 11:56:33 PM
I looked at the O flights for the JROTC cadets and CAP provided money for the flight when it is set up. Hope I am correct on that.
I would hope that CAP would pay for their own cadets over others.
CAP gets the money from the AF. The AF supports JROTC, ROTC and CAP...
What's the issue here?
Something like 90% of the cost of COS comes out of Congressionally-appropriated funds. The activity fee did not even cover the airfare provided to most cadets.
CAP cadets have participated in the JROTC honor camp for several years.
The two organizations have much in common and both benefit from a closer stategic relationship.
They have things that we are envious of - things like paid instructors at every unit, provided classrooms and adminstrative support in each school, and a (comparitively) huge support staff at their national level.
We have things that they are envious of - things like our curriculum materials, volunteer support, the ability to place units in settings other than schools, aircraft support, a wider age range of cadets, and especially our highly developed NCSA program.
Both organizations happen to be headquartered at Maxwell AFB at the Holm Center and talk with each other at the staff level.
We have invited all of the JROTC organizations to the CP Summit that CAP is hosting in San Diego later this year. As I said, we have much in common and can work together for the benefit of all of our cadets.
Ned Lee
National Cadet Programs Guy
Organizationally now at AU, CAP, Jr ROTC, ROTC, & OTS, all come under the same Division (Holm Center) Commander. Of course CAP is the only operational (as opposed to just training/education) command of AU. :clap:
Locally, we got a AF JROTC right in the same community, and I've never seen the two retired AF guys who are instructors ever visit us at our squadron. :(
We have also had a few cadets that were in AFJROTC, and a couple of cadets (no longer active in our squadron) join the senior ROTC program.
Actually it's interesting that JROTC seems to get much more logistical support . The cadets there get free dress shoes & combat boots, complete uniforms and all the appropriate insiginias while CAP cadets only get a pair of pants & shirt. I think it would be better for teenagers with financial limitations to join a junior ROTC unit than it would be to join a CAP unit.
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on July 15, 2010, 12:40:24 AM
I think it would be better for teenagers with financial limitations to join a junior ROTC unit than it would be to join a CAP unit.
RM
The problem of course is the fact most communities have no access to JROTC, and the schools show little interest in establishing them. Even school that could afford to pay the Ret. Military Instructor.
I find it sad that the college counselor at my High School had to call me when I graduated early (so technically during what would have been my Senior Year), to refer a student interested in cadet programs to me, to talk about CAP.
During my Sophomore/Junior year, I've met with the School Administrators and Principal to discuss JROTC. I even had 20-30 interested students that I talked to (this is a school of 4500 students), which was more than enough to start a unit. The school just kinda ignored/dragged the issue until I graduated...
Wow Colonel Lee that was quick!
I did not know CAP Cadets participated in the JROTC Camp. I did not even know there was a CP summit.
I am pleased to read that nearly 90% of the cost of individual Cadet attendance is from appropriated funds. So, in reality the actual COS costs are really that high? Are you feeding them steak and caviar each night?!?!
The question still remains, did CAP pay for the JROTC Cadets to attend this activity? It does not matter if the funds CAP uses are Congressional Appropriated or not. Those funds are for CAP CADETS, JROTC is a totally different line item.
My concern as brought up above is paying for JROTC Cadets in various situations, when in reality the AF should be taking the Cash from the JROTC Budget, not CAP.
I only bring this up, because my neighbor has been doing JROTC instruction for three years, and has told me of other organizations (other than CAP) that sponsor JROTC activities, because the Air Force gives JROTC so little money. I would imagine CAP would have paid for this activity as it was not during the academic year, and the AF only sets aside so much money for summertime JROTC activity.
I would be dissapointed if the activity fee was paid by CAP for these jrotc Cadets. That would make it seem they are more deserving than our Cadets. They already get priority on O-Rides in my area, due to the large number of jrotc units in the surrounding school districts. I also am upset that I have a Cadet who has received the max number of front seat CAP O-Rides, yet has flown three times in the front under the JROTC program. Not fair to other Cadets in my unit, and something that needs to be addressed by USAF and CAP.
Quote from: Patterson on July 15, 2010, 12:48:45 AMThey already get priority on O-Rides in my area, due to the large number of jrotc units in the surrounding school districts. I also am upset that I have a Cadet who has received the max number of front seat CAP O-Rides, yet has flown three times in the front under the JROTC program. Not fair to other Cadets in my unit, and something that needs to be addressed by USAF and CAP.
The JROTC pays for their own rides, so they can fly all they want, if your cadets want more front seat rides, they have to pay as well.
What you have is local JROTC leaders, who have chosen to spend more money than local CAP units or your cadets.
CAP is not paying for the JROTC rides.
We fly the JROTC cadets from our local high school. I think they were able to come up with enough money to fly a total 3 hours for the entire year. The grass isn't always greener...
Quote from: EMT-83 on July 15, 2010, 02:52:58 AM
We fly the JROTC cadets from our local high school. I think they were able to come up with enough money to fly a total 3 hours for the entire year. The grass isn't always greener...
It might be "interesting" to know where the funding is coming from - wouldn't be the first time someone misunderstood the program.
If it turned out the Wing was paying for JROTC rides, then you'd have every right to be bent.
My wing does not currently fly them at all.
I doubt there are many Wings out there that would accidentally use CAP money to fly JROTC cadets.
Definitely not coming from Wing. JROTC tells us how much they have to spend, and we figure out the hours. Glad I'm not the guy who has to pick the cadets.
CAP had 9 AFJROTC cadets at COS that just ended a few hours ago.
JROTC pays for their cadets to go to their camps, etc. CAP opened up some slots and told JROTC that the activity fee was ~$650, or the actual unsubsidized cost of a cadet to attend. Their cadets did not pay anything, their program paid for them to come at no charge. There is no conspiracy or crazy program that is taking CAP cadet funding away from our cadets.
The 9 that attended represented their program with honor. In fact, the JROTC cadet that I had in my seminar was one of the contenders for top performer.
Next question - why does COS cost $650?
Quote from: Eclipse on July 15, 2010, 05:32:15 AM
Next question - why does COS cost $650?
Billeting is ~$35 a night (~$350/cadet). They get a "per diem" per say. Throughout the week the cadets are given allotments of money to cover their meals, etc. They are provided with educational materials, a graduation dinner, t-shirts to identify which flight they're in, administrative expenses for the school, etc.
OK - so why are we paying for billeting?
I'm not trying to be a smartypants, I'm really curious. COS is just another week-long classroom situation, yet it costs nearly as much as some flight academies.
I'm curious how they chose the cadets to attend. AFJROTC is really and truly a locally based thing. We had no relationship at all with local units when I was a JROTC cadet, with the exception of a conference or two per year. If you have ten CAP C/Lt. Col's, you know what you're getting, at least to the minimal nationally published standards. Take ten AFJROTC C/Lt. Col's from five units, and you have no idea what you're getting.
Quote from: Eclipse on July 15, 2010, 05:06:45 PM
OK - so why are we paying for billeting?
Because they AF does not give it to us for free at either Maxwell or Gunter. They charge us the standard rates they charge everyone, including themselves.
QuoteCOS is just another week-long classroom situation, yet it costs nearly as much as some flight academies.
Non-concur.
COS needs to be at Maxwell/Gunter because it enjoys incredible support from the Air University faculty. COS cadets are not getting instruction from CAP seniors, but the same PhDs and other distinguished faculty that instruct in the War College, ACSC, and SOS.
Using the same materials and facilities used to train AF officers, including some rather specialized facilities.
IIRC, the largest single budget item for COS is the airfare for the over 100 cadets attending. As anyone who has been to NHQ can attest, airfare into the Montgomery airport is typical of airfaires into smaller, regional airports. Which is to say fairly expensive.
Reasonable minds will always disagree on specfic aspects of budgets for activities. May I suggest that you contact either Mr. LaFond or the volunteer CAP Activity Director, Maj Mike Foster for specific budgetary questions?
^ Ok. All reasonable items. Thank you for the explanation.
All I was going on was the NCSA website and the documents for COS.
COS is a great program! I recommend it to all of my Cadets. In fact each year, I send two Cadets there. Perhaps because Wing knows I will only send the best, they have never denied anyone I have sent for an interview in 6 years. Now if we can get our Region Cadet Leadership Schools to be like COS....that would be great. Too many Wings conduct a CLS as though it were "Encampment Phase 2", and I am just so displeased to see that!! There is no reason to conduct the same training at CLS that was conducted at Encampment.
I'm in the process of setting up a Dining-Out for Sept 18th. It will involve AFROTC from the University of Florida, a local high school AFJROTC unit and the local CAP Squadron. The significance of Sept. 18th? The anniversary of the establishment of the USAF. BGen Teresa Djuric, USAF Commander of Holm Center, Maxwell AFB is the main speaker. AFROTC, AFJROTC and CAP-USAF now all fall under command of the Holm Center. (she has accepted the invitation to speak)
One of the goals is to foster cooperation among the three USAF supported organizations. Possibly including various training activities.
Quote from: BillB on July 15, 2010, 08:37:33 PM
One of the goals is to foster cooperation among the three USAF supported organizations. Possibly including various training activities.
I understand that. What training does AFJROTC do that would be good for CAP??
I already have two weekends per academic semester dedicated to taking my Cadets to the University and having the ROTC Cadets instruct them in proper Drill, a few breakout sessions conducted by the Professor of Aerospace Studies and his staff that deal with Officership for my Cadet Officers and military skills that are taught in the Freshman ROTC classes. In return I get them on a KC-135 flight each semester (good to be married to the Squadron Commander of an air Guard Unit!!) and setup events like you are describing.
I really have never worked with JROTC before.....possibly because the closest unit is somewhat of a drive...
Quote from: JThemann on July 15, 2010, 05:26:37 PM
I'm curious how they chose the cadets to attend. AFJROTC is really and truly a locally based thing. We had no relationship at all with local units when I was a JROTC cadet, with the exception of a conference or two per year. If you have ten CAP C/Lt. Col's, you know what you're getting, at least to the minimal nationally published standards. Take ten AFJROTC C/Lt. Col's from five units, and you have no idea what you're getting.
They all came from Alabama AFJROTC units and were selected by their instructors. They were all at least C/Capt in their units and all had at least three years in their programs (seemed to be a self imposed requirement). None of them were slouches, by any means. In fact, I would argue that some of our cadets were a bit further behind the power curve than they were.
Their instructors did a fine job ensuring that those slots wouldn't be wasted. Also, throughout the week there was a AFJROTC staff member on hand.
I noted earlier that the C/Maj from one of the local AFJROTC units was a serious contender for top performer for my flight. If he hadn't been wearing a slightly different uniform, you wouldn't have known that he was in a different organization.
In my honest opinion, I'm sure that just like a CAP unit you can find some really high-speed cadets in any JROTC unit and some slouches. The SASIs and ASIs are smart enough not to send someone who is going to embarrass them to a joint function like this, especially on the first year.
Quote from: Ned on July 15, 2010, 05:41:04 PM
Because they AF does not give it to us for free at either Maxwell or Gunter. They charge us the standard rates they charge everyone, including themselves.
I have long felt that there is an inequity here: many of the national cadet special activities and basic encampments as well are recruiting tools for the Air Force; in fact, information about USAF enlistment/commissioning programs is, I believe, still part of the required encampment curriculum.
You'd think that, to support this effort, the Air Force could spring for the use of the quarters for these events (not food, just the rooms).
Then again, I know that, at least here in NJ, when our folks support Mcguire AFB annual air show, those that remain overnight to work as volunteers all day get charged each night for 'lodging' (which at least in the case of the cadets has often been barracks at Ft Dix, 8-12 to a room).
I guess that's why we call it "Come And Pay"!
If I am not mistaken, CAP and AFJROTC have the same Cadet programs officer, something like that.
But to answer the original post, the USAF dosnt pay for many AFJROTC events, so 99% sure they didnt pay for those cadets to attend a CAP event. The only AFJROTC fully-paid event is the Honors camp, which is in its last year due to budget cuts.
And in JROTC there are slouches and some speedy guys. But, my SASI sent a kid to the last honors camp who can barley do 8 push-ups.
As far as what training AFJROTC has to offer to CAP, nothing really.
How some JROTC units give ranks, you really do not know what you are getting out of 5 C/Lt Cols. The way my unit does it, everyone applies for a staff position. staff positions come with rank.
Quote from: C/Martin on July 16, 2010, 06:58:49 AM
If I am not mistaken, CAP and AFJROTC have the same Cadet programs officer, something like that.
Not even close.
From above:
Quote from: Ned on July 15, 2010, 12:29:26 AMBoth organizations happen to be headquartered at Maxwell AFB at the Holm Center and talk with each other at the staff level.
Ned Lee
National Cadet Programs Guy
Quote from: ZigZag911 on July 16, 2010, 04:11:51 AM
You'd think that, to support this effort, the Air Force could spring for the use of the quarters for these events (not food, just the rooms).
I can understand this sentiment. However, in a day where the air force doesn't need much recruiting help (new recruits waiting a year to go to BMT) and downsizing their officer corps, while at the same time, being told they need to cut money out of their budget - I just don't foresee them taking a hit on their budget for something like this.
Additionally, certain locations are a bit easier to provide "free" lodging. Somewhere like Ft. Pickett in Virginia, with their WWII era open-bay barracks, no air conditioning and 8 amp electrical service with the cadets essentially doing the building maintenance while they are there is easy to say, "sure, just use it and make sure it's clean when you leave."
On Maxwell, the ops-tempo is significantly higher. Their lodging is hotel-like with televisions, separate rooms for each individual, maid service, towel service, free laundry facilities, etc. When you have people employed to take care of the rooms through a contract and the additional overhead, they aren't going to change their procedures or lay 15 people off for a week, simply because we are using the building.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on July 16, 2010, 02:58:59 PM
However, in a day where the air force doesn't need much recruiting help (new recruits waiting a year to go to BMT) and downsizing their officer corps, while at the same time, being told they need to cut money out of their budget - I just don't foresee them taking a hit on their budget for something like this.
Nothing is forever; the economic picture will change, the wars may heat up, and the services will again be scrambling for recruits....why is everything the US government does so short term and short sighted?
Quote from: ZigZag911 on July 17, 2010, 01:42:02 AM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on July 16, 2010, 02:58:59 PM
However, in a day where the air force doesn't need much recruiting help (new recruits waiting a year to go to BMT) and downsizing their officer corps, while at the same time, being told they need to cut money out of their budget - I just don't foresee them taking a hit on their budget for something like this.
Yes, but even with all the tough times the Army head, the AF fared better during the 05-08 period. In fact, while the Army/Marines were building up their forces, the Air Force had multiple downsizing periods where they cut 50% of ROTC students at a time.
Nothing is forever; the economic picture will change, the wars may heat up, and the services will again be scrambling for recruits....why is everything the US government does so short term and short sighted?