The 200 hour per aircraft goal

[Eclipse]

Hours are down,...

Are they?  Especially when adjusted for the budgetary issues?

I'm looking at my wing's numbers right now, with a few days left in the FY.  I don't know that
we've ever made 200 per airframe actual (a couple planes are located for strategic reasons
in outlying areas), but we almost always make the 200 average, and already have this year, and that's
with only a 10-month "year" because funding was late to arrive and paused for a month mid-cycle), without
that, we'd probably be close to 200 actual per airframe.

I keep hearing how there are no more ELT missions, yet my wing has 8 finds this year and that's about on
par with every other year since I started.

Sandy certainly "helped", and our CD flying is way up, not to mention that we had several good-sized
incidents that provided aerial assessment missions.

We should be doing a lot more, and we're giving money back (even though members spent their own instead
of using easy funded missions), but it's "about the same" in terms of hours and dollars.

[Eclipse]

Just looked at hours back to 2007, which is all WMIRS has.

In the 7 year span, our peak year was about 7% higher then the last 4, but that is because the peak year and
the year before included a lot of AFJROTC flying that is no longer being funded in my wing.  Remove the AFJROTC
hours and we are essentially static for the last 7 years.

Now, maintaining the status quo has actually required that we do a fair amount of work replacing hours "lost".
My wing implemented two different initiatives this year which accounted for about 140-150 flying hours.  Without those,
we'd probably be down at least 1/2 that amount (nothing is a zero-sum).

If wings are sitting on the sidelines and mourning the loss while not doing anything, then, K-SARAH-SARAH.

What we need to figure out in my wing is why, when the paperwork and other expectations are exactly the same,
we have members flying self-funded B17 & C17 sorties when there was about $5k of funded, quick-spin A7 program
money left on the table.

[ol'fido]

I know that down here several pilots are flying on their own dime to build hours and proficiency toward getting their MP quals so that they can take advantage of those funded hours.

[Eclipse]

I know that down here several pilots are flying on their own dime to build hours and proficiency toward getting their MP quals so that they can take advantage of those funded hours.

Awesome, and we want them to come and get it.

What doesn't compute for us is the MPs who could take it by just asking for it and leave it on the table.

[SunDog]

The person who moves the aircraft could certainly update the aircraftclubs.com listing to show where the aircraft is actually parked.

Two phone calls saved.

Not safety current? Do you go to the meeting much? Doesn't sound like it. Currency lasts as long as 60 days, if it's done early in the month. Like Day 1.

Different avionics? Sounds like you don't fly much, if you have to make call to ask which button to push.
Make notes on your kneeboard content.

Another phone call saved.

As an FRO, I'm fine with the email coming first. That tells me to expect a call. I'm usually near a computer or connection, and I keep CAPF99 on my devices, and "last resort", a pen and form nearby.

I don't need 27 phone calls, I release the flight after confirming what I'm supposed to. I am not a dispatcher. I'm either releasing you, or not.

Maybe the Wing needs a few less technophobic FROs?

Tach hours not entered? That's a procedural problem. Sure, maybe it should require it. But that can be fixed with policy too. "You don't do this, you don't fly next time."

I'm not even going to get into the bread and milk run. If you're telling me that the FRO expects to be called back, and by virtue knows when your flight is, why are they making themselves so hard to get ahold of? Back to "Maybe the Wing needs new FROs"

I stopped reading at the fantasy line.

But I'll tell you how I do it as an FRO.

I see the email. I know to expect a call.
I get the call, we talk about it.
Since I'm a pilot I not only know what they're doing, I can absolutely relate to it.
I.M.S.A.F.E. is covered, other specifics, a little chit chat. "Your released".

..and they call me back when the flight is done, of if they never went, etc.
I occasionally check flight radar feeds to see if they're in the air, if they landed, etc.

Easy peasy.

Sounds like you've got control freaks making things harder than they need to be.

Hey A2 - Feel free to stop reading at any point here, as well. I do read all your words, but I'll try to start cutting back. Mutual ignoring is likely where the thread is heading, anyway.

BUT! I call Shennigans, shennaigans! Unless you are the only FRO in your wing, and you always answer the phone;

The process doesn't start with the FRO - he/she is one required, but minor, step. Example - you are my number three FRO - I called the first two, home and cell numbers. No joy. I called you on home number, then got you on your cell. Six calls to connect to my third choice. I've gone five, six deep, routinely. A nice chat on connection, but what are we talking about related to the flight? Not to be harsh, or rude, but I probably don't care what you think about the weather forecast, or the denisty altitude. You might mention them, and no harm done, but I have things to do, like check the weather forcast and the compute the density altitude.

Please, note, I didn't say it's a NO value conversation, just a low-value event. If you are an experienced pilot, and I'm a low time guy, I do see the value, and yeah, lets have a conversation. So set some threshold on experience, to require an FRO conversation.

Just no rational reason for that phone chase; it's bad business process. Not even debating IMSAFE with you, but I will ask, sincerley, as a pilot, would you even call an FRO if you weren't ready to respond in the affirmative? I can imagine, maybe once, over a long service as an FRO, someone may have hestitated and told you "Uh, no. I'm too tired/sick/worried. Never mind, let's cancel". 

Diffrent story if the FRO was a dispatcher, qualified and empowered to make a go or no-go decision. Then we'd have a lot fewer FRO's, and CAP would need more insurance, I think.

But hey, I could be wrong. Let's ask NHQ to do  the add and take-aways, and support, with metrics, some of the goat rope. If the numbers support it, NHQ wins over pilots, and gains some credibility.

Eclipse doesn't believe the goat rope can be as bad as all that. But he isn't a pilot, and doesn't experience the time compression and blizzard of trivia. But you do - has an FRO ever brought up something that caused you to cancel? I mean related to your fitness for flight?

I wonder if he read this?

[SunDog]

What doesn't compute for us is the MPs who could take it by just asking for it and leave it on the table.
[/quote]

Wait, wait, does this make sense? If lots of us pilots are concerned only with $$$ and not being grounded, why the heck would we be leaving funded flying hours on the table? Why, why, what could it possibly be? What could be putting us off? could it be. . . nah. . .

Hey, I'm goofing, really. . .not gonna pillory you over one casual note; not fair, not constructive.

I think Ned commented (agreed?) that the process isn't well designed. I think you know that, as well. But I think I'll pass on the pilot qual mess, and the aircraft location dance of the thousand veils. Inertia is probably gonna win this one, but the glide down may last long enough for some good flying in the near and mid-term.

You all take care now, ya hear?

[Eclipse]

Just no rational reason for that phone chase; it's bad business process.

Why is it a chase?  If they don't answer their phones, they should not be FROs.

What's a "home phone"? 

I only publish my cell number and >always< answer my phone.  Why wouldn't I?
That's pretty much typical of all the FROs in my wing.  I don't think I have called
anyone at "home" in 5+ years.

[Eclipse]

Wait, wait, does this make sense? If lots of us pilots are concerned only with $$$ and not being grounded, why the heck would we be leaving funded flying hours on the table? Why, why, what could it possibly be? What could be putting us off? could it be. . . nah. . .

It makes absolutely >zero< sense, since the entirety of the expectations for the flight, with the exception of actually >asking<
for the funding, is identical.  In fact, the effort is a wash, since the "asking" is made up for by us creating the sortie.

My wing does not suffer the slings and arrows yours apparently does.  These >funded< A7's can literally be approved in real-time
when weather or other opportunities present themselves, otherwise we ask for 24 hours, but frankly we don't really care on the lead time.  We want it to be as simple and non-onerous as possible.

Some of the C17s are understandable since those will be pilots ramping up, but the B's don't compute.  It's literally like walking into
a restaurant and before ordering the watress says "If you want, that guy over there will pay for your meal, you just have to go ask him,,," and responding "Nah."

[SunDog]

Just no rational reason for that phone chase; it's bad business process.

Why is it a chase?  If they don't answer their phones, they should not be FROs.

What's a "home phone"? 

I only publish my cell number and >always< answer my phone.  Why wouldn't I?
That's pretty much typical of all the FROs in my wing.  I don't think I have called
anyone at "home" in 5+ years.

I heard of a FRO who went on vacation once. Another one was flying when I called. Sometimes they go out with their friends and families.
Dang slackers. . . I know for a fact that one guy went TDY.

I guess they could use the WMIRS feature that allows them to opt out of availability when they'll be out of touch - that feature works, right?  I'm not a FRO, so it's not available to me. . .

I also know of a few who prefer to be called on their home phone numbers. Ludittes.

[Eclipse]

Just no rational reason for that phone chase; it's bad business process.

Why is it a chase?  If they don't answer their phones, they should not be FROs.

What's a "home phone"? 

I only publish my cell number and >always< answer my phone.  Why wouldn't I?
That's pretty much typical of all the FROs in my wing.  I don't think I have called
anyone at "home" in 5+ years.

I heard of a FRO who went on vacation once. Another one was flying when I called. Sometimes they go out with their friends and families.
Dang slackers. . . I know for a fact that one guy went TDY.

I guess they could use the WMIRS feature that allows them to opt out of availability when they'll be out of touch - that feature works, right?  I'm not a FRO, so it's not available to me. . .

I also know of a few who prefer to be called on their home phone numbers. Ludittes.

This word, "vacation", what means it?

You can release a flight on your phone, from the beach, and "out with friends" - it's part of the deal if you want the responsibility.

Someone TDY could well still release flights, heck, we have people deployed in combat areas that still do CAP work, though as you say, they could simply remove themselves from the pool.

Again, these are people issues, not system issues.

[lordmonar]

It is a simple fix......more FRO's.

Sundog....are you an FRO?   Are there any FRO's in your squadron?

It is as easy as taking the online training and then having their names added to the FRO list at wing.

They system as designed is not broke...but as built may be clunky...but that is because people complain about it with out trying to fix it.

[JeffDG]

It is a simple fix......more FRO's.

Sundog....are you an FRO?   Are there any FRO's in your squadron?

It is as easy as taking the online training and then having their names added to the FRO list at wing.

They system as designed is not broke...but as built may be clunky...but that is because people complain about it with out trying to fix it.

They're the same people who come to SAREXs and sit around drinking coffee and [censored]ing that they're sitting on the ground, but you never seem to see them with an AOBD SQTR handy either.

[lordmonar]

It is a simple fix......more FRO's.

Sundog....are you an FRO?   Are there any FRO's in your squadron?

It is as easy as taking the online training and then having their names added to the FRO list at wing.

They system as designed is not broke...but as built may be clunky...but that is because people complain about it with out trying to fix it.

They're the same people who come to SAREXs and sit around drinking coffee and [censored]ing that they're sitting on the ground, but you never seem to see them with an AOBD SQTR handy either.

Yep....and I say the same thing to them as well.

[RogueLeader]

It is a simple fix......more FRO's.

Sundog....are you an FRO?   Are there any FRO's in your squadron?

It is as easy as taking the online training and then having their names added to the FRO list at wing.

They system as designed is not broke...but as built may be clunky...but that is because people complain about it with out trying to fix it.

They're the same people who come to SAREXs and sit around drinking coffee and [censored]ing that they're sitting on the ground, but you never seem to see them with an AOBD SQTR handy either.

Yep....and I say the same thing to them as well.

Of course they won't, then they only thing they will fly is a desk with a computer.  That's what happened to me, and I've seen it happen to too many people.  They all want to fly, but don't want to deal with all the paperwork that makes it happen.

[RiverAux]

It is a simple fix......more FRO's.

At one point, maybe.  A few years ago our Wing cut out almost all the FROs.  I can't quite recall exactly why, but I think it had to do with some sort of mandatory reporting issues.  Think there were a lot of FROs on the books that never actually did releases but were still obligated to send some sort of report in that they never did.  I could be getting that backwards or maybe its not an issue anymore. 

I took the FRO "training" at one point when I was working on AOBD (I think, or it may be something I did as squadron commander back when they could release flights) and wasn't terribly impressed.  Unless it has changed significantly, I don't see why the computer couldn't do almost all of it. 

[Eclipse]

We had a "great purge" of FROs a couple years ago as well.  There were some bad actors and a lot of empty shirts.
Reporting was a pretty significant part of the problem because we had far too many flights released without a
99 somewhere that matched. "I'll get it later."

Since then we've slowly grown the cadre back with some attitude adjustment, and an understanding that
in all but the most extreme circumstances or emergency, the releases should be done through WMIRS, which
then negates the whole reporting problem.

It's actually kind of amusing, since "FRO" was spoken in hushed tones and was primarily the parlance of pilots.
When I finally cared enough to look into it, I had to ask around for what I was missing "Is this it?"

[lordmonar]

It is a simple fix......more FRO's.

At one point, maybe.  A few years ago our Wing cut out almost all the FROs.  I can't quite recall exactly why, but I think it had to do with some sort of mandatory reporting issues.  Think there were a lot of FROs on the books that never actually did releases but were still obligated to send some sort of report in that they never did.  I could be getting that backwards or maybe its not an issue anymore. 

I took the FRO "training" at one point when I was working on AOBD (I think, or it may be something I did as squadron commander back when they could release flights) and wasn't terribly impressed.  Unless it has changed significantly, I don't see why the computer couldn't do almost all of it.

From what I understand.....the whole/main reasons for FROs is so that someone knows that you are flying and when you are supposed to be back.   All the other "safety" BS that it seems that some wing's require and FRO to do.....is a lot of "good ideas" instead of people knowing what the main purpose is for.

As far as I know commanders can still be FRO......anyone can.....on of my squadron's FRO is a MS who won't fly (he gets air sick).  But he is there to release our flights.   We are in the process of adding at least three more FROs to our rosters and having a rotating schedule on who to call.

Call/text before going to the airport to alert them "I'm flying at 9".  He releases your flight in WRMS.  Call him just before engine start and he says have a good flight.   When you land....call him back "wheels down" and you are good.

It gets a little complicated with a flight with multiple landings (each one is a sortie).....but the system works here no problem.
We even release flight the night before......call up at 7pm.....I'm flying at 0700....okay you are released call me when you land of you if you change your ETD/ETA.

I think a lot of the problems is not with the system but with the idea fairy making things more complicated.

[Storm Chaser]

While releasing a flight is not rocket science, it's more than just receiving a text and punching a button in WMIRS. FROs need to run the appropriate checklist, verify flight, aircraft and pilot information, and ask related questions. This should be done, at a minimum, over the phone. They are "responsible for authorizing a CAP pilot to fly as pilot in command in [a] CAP aircraft."

As for the requirements to be a FRO, while CAPR 60-1 doesn't specify qualifications, ratings, specialties or training beyond the FRO online course, FROs must "possess a sound knowledge of the CAP flight management program" according to the regulation; it shouldn't just be anyone.

Wings can (and sometimes do) specify additional requirements and can limit who can be and how many FROs a unit can have. CAPR 60-1 is very clear when it says that the "eFlight Release process should decrease the overall number of FROs a wing needs, so it should be understood that not every person who completes the FRO online training course will be selected to be an FRO."

[Eclipse]

I think a previous revision of 60-1 limited FRO appointment to Pilots, ICs, certain Operations staff, aircrew, and commanders of units with pilots (I could be wrong, but
this conversation sounds familiar).  I know a few years ago, related to the "great purge", there was a discussion, at least in my wing, that
pilots as FROs was somewhat a conflict of interest because in the rare case that a flight release had to be denied, one pilot wouldn't want to
upset another, or be viewed as hard-asses, so they might let something "trivial" pass by.  Data on "troubling" releases supported that
assertion, and some of those FROs were no longer burdened with those decisions.

The Wing CC recently asked me if I thought we has enough FROs (as indicated in 60-1), I indicated "yes", as we hadn't heard any
complaints in quite some time, and that to my knowledge, no commander who submitted a member for FRO appointment and been disapproved.

For clarity to the conversation, here is what 60-1 says about the FRO.  I've highlighted a couple key points about the
responsibilities of ascertaining a safe arrival and initiating a missing aircraft search.  Unless a flight plan is filed,
60-1 requires the FRO verify safe arrival, so this isn't just some FROs being a nanny.  However its also common courtesy,
and some small recognition that you're part of a team and not just a "lone hawk who must kiss the sky".

"2-5. Flight Release. The flight release officer (FRO) is responsible for authorizing a CAP pilot
to fly as pilot in command in CAP aircraft. The release is made directly between the FRO and
the pilot in command and not to a crew member/passenger. The PIC and the FRO will have a
personal or telephone conversation prior to flight release. The FRO is expected to verify
appropriate information prior to giving a flight release. The WMIRS eFlight Release process
automatically provides a great deal of the information flight release officers need. The FRO is
not a dispatcher and is not responsible for the actual conduct of the flight. They are responsible
for confirming the aircraft safely arrived at its destination unless an FAA flight plan is used (see
paragraph 2-5e).

a. Prior to flight, a flight release is required for all CAP flight activities.

b. FROs are CAP senior members designated in WMIRS as flight release officers by a
region or wing commander, or his/her designee. FROs must have passed the online CAP FRO
training course (https://missions.capnhq.gov/ops/dot/school/fro/) and possess a sound knowledge
of the CAP flight management program prior to being appointed as an FRO. Commanders should
only appoint a sufficient number of FROs to meet wing needs. The eFlight Release process should
decrease the overall number of FROs a wing needs, so it should be understood that not every
person who completes the FRO online training course will be selected to be an FRO.

c. FROs may not release a flight on which they are PIC, crew or passenger.

d. All flights must be released using eFlight Release in WMIRS. The only exception is in
the event that access to WMIRS is not possible, in which case flights may be released on a CAPF
99, CAP Flight Release Log. These CAPF 99 released flights must then be recorded in the
eFlight Release process within 24 hours unless extenuating circumstances prevail and the NOC is
informed. A CAPF 99 release is a last resort. When all releases documented on a CAPF 99 are
recorded as eFlight Releases in WMIRS, the CAPF 99 may be discarded or filed IAW CAPR 10-
2, Files Maintenance and Records Disposition, for a supervised mission. For supervised
missions, the IC must be an FRO and may release any flight related to that mission. Additional
mission management personnel (such as air operations branch directors and operational section
chiefs) may be appointed FROs in sufficient quantity to meet the operational mission needs of
the wing/region.

e. All eFlight releases (and flights temporarily released on CAPF 99 for a base with no
internet access) require the date, N-number, mission symbol, PIC, passengers, estimated flight
time and route of flight recorded prior to release. The FRO must be notified of any changes
made prior to departure. If an FAA flight plan will not be used, the following additional steps
are required:
(1) Record an estimated landing time prior to release.
(2) The FRO is responsible for initiating missing aircraft procedures 2 hours after the
estimated landing time if not notified the flight was extended or safely concluded."

[lordmonar]

The FRO's main job is to make sure the plane landed safely.

Just look at the 99.

CAP FRO CHECKLIST QUESTIONS
1. Are PIC(s) qualified to fly the CAP aircraft for the type of flight proposed (consult the Ops-Qual FRO Report)? Does the PIC(s) possess the appropriate pilot currency for the flight?

2. Are all aircraft occupants CAP members? If not, have applicable procedures been followed for non-CAP members, including CAPF 9 if applicable?

3. Is the correct mission symbol selected?

4. Is the route of flight complete, and does the PIC have permission to fly to destinations outside the wing? Does permission exist for all landings at
every airport IAW CAPR 60-1?

5. Will a flight plan be filed (required for over 50nm)? If not, what is the estimated landing time?  Unless an FAA flight plan is filed and activated,
the FRO is responsible for initiating missing aircraft procedures two hours after the estimated landing time if not notified the flight was safely concluded.

Nothing about ORMS, nothing about checking with the wx services, nothing about "have you pre-flighted the AC"

Are you qualified and current?
Are all pax CAP members or have the appropriate authorizations?
Are you using the right fund site?
You're not going to land at that dirt strip by the beach again are you?
Close out your flight plan or call me or we are going to come looking for you!

That's an FRO's job and nothing else.   Everything else is the PIC's job.