Opinions on NB uniform proposals

[lordmonar]

What part of our uniform regulations are we trying to get more in line and how?
We are not active duty, we're only civilians.
so what part of the agenda lists the items about getting in line with USAF policy.
(Can't see agenda file.)

I was talking specifically about the commander's badge for alumni commanders.

We may not be active duty...but we are the USAF Auxiliary.   Our uniforms should be as close to AD uniforms as possible.

[Smokey]

As for police uniforms.....
My agency specifically allows them...from our regulations...
Armed Forces Ribbons
Uniform ribbons representing duly authorized decorations or awards for service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or any of its allies when this country was at war, may be worn as prescribed for the particular ribbon in the official regulations governing the awards. Ribbons shall be worn on the left side of the Class A uniform below the badge and above any Department pin.
But...they are normally only worn for special occasions such as funerals, award ceremonies, promotional interviews, Armed Forces Day, Marine Corps birthday, etc.  It's a bit too much to be worn for the everyday uniform wear.

[flyguync]

No, simply because there isn't anyone quitting because of the uniforms.

Not when a $17 golf shirt still fills the bill.

Where can you get a $17.00 CAP golf shirt at??? PM if OPSEC is an issue.

As to uniforms it has always been a circus. So many people want to be like big boy AF but they apparently don't want us, so why all of the fuss? Lets go strictly corporate, forget the ABU's as we will more than likely have to wear neon pink name tapes on those, forget the blues, and take CAP for what its worth, a volunteer organization.

Another observation to the NB agenda kept refering to AF owned uniform items, hate to tell the AF guys to get their heads out of the clouds but just because its blue dosent mean its theirs, a lot of agecies use blue woolly pullies, blue rank slides and blue jackets.

But these are just my opinions.

[James Shaw]

My take on the NB uniform proposals.

I do not feel that we whould wear any RM ribbons or badges on the CSU uniform period!

[changed] I thought better of it.  Sorry if I offended anyone, especially caphistorian.

I have been working all day and have not seen any posts to me. I am clueless!

It wasn't gentlemanly.  My apologies.

I dont have any problem with people wearing what they have earned. I have always stated that in my past posts. The reason I state this is because we as a group are allready pushing the envelope with the medal grade on the CSU uniform. This is against Title 10 of the US code. I dont think that the Air Force likes this as it is and putting RM stuff on there would only complicate it. I have nothing against anyone wearing what they have rightfully earned.

[RiverAux]

Better go arrest all the police and fire departments using metal rank insignia on their uniforms.  By the way, the same codes prevent people from the unauthorized wearing of CAP uniforms so I guess we need to go after the federal forces for wearing OUR insignia.

[flyguync]

Which section of Title 10 are you refering to? Ch 909 which pertains to CAP has nothing other than the usual hoopla about what we do and suport to CAP. This comes from Title 10 Sub D Pt 3 Ch 909. 
Now Title 10 Sub A Pt 2 Ch 45 "Uniform" Sec 733 "Distinctive Insignia Required" reads
"(a) A person for whom one of the following uniforms is prescribed may wear it, if it includes distinctive insignia prescribed by the Secretary of the military department concerned to distinguish it from the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be:
(1) The uniform prescribed by the university, college, or school for an instructor or member of the organized cadet corps of—
(A) a State university or college, or a public high school, having a regular course of military instruction; or
(B) an educational institution having a regular course of military instruction, and having a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps as instructor in military science and tactics.
(2) The uniform prescribed by a military society composed of persons discharged honorably or under honorable conditions from the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps to be worn by a member of that society when authorized by regulations prescribed by the President.
(b) A uniform prescribed under subsection (a) may not include insignia of grade the same as, or similar to, those prescribed for officers of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps.
(c) Under such regulations as the Secretary of the military department concerned may prescribe, any person who is permitted to attend a course of instruction prescribed for members of a reserve officers' training corps, and who is not a member of that corps, may, while attending that course of instruction, wear the uniform of that corps. "

Now I dont proclaim to be a scholar in military law but none of these apply to CAP so we are ok on "big boy" rank.  Ill continue to look elsewhere in T-10 USC  but also in doing a search for Civil Air Patrol I only came up with 16 hits and all came from Ch 909.

[James Shaw]

Better go arrest all the police and fire departments using metal rank insignia on their uniforms.  By the way, the same codes prevent people from the unauthorized wearing of CAP uniforms so I guess we need to go after the federal forces for wearing OUR insignia.

Police and Fire are authorized under State Authority.

[James Shaw]

((b) A uniform prescribed under subsection (a) may not include insignia of grade the same as, or similar to, those prescribed for officers of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps.

This is the one I have been referred to when I have asked the same questions. We are the AF Auxiliary and under the "jurisidction".

[RiverAux]

My mistake, its in Title 18.

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 33 > § 702
§ 702. Uniform of armed forces and Public Health Service

Whoever, in any place within the jurisdiction of the United States or in the Canal Zone, without authority, wears the uniform or a distinctive part thereof or anything similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of any of the armed forces of the United States, Public Health Service or any auxiliary of such, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

[flyguync]

In which subsection a reads""(a) A person for whom one of the following uniforms is prescribed may wear it, if it includes distinctive insignia prescribed by the Secretary of the military department concerned to distinguish it from the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be:
(1) The uniform prescribed by the university, college, or school for an instructor or member of the organized cadet corps of—
(A) a State university or college, or a public high school, having a regular course of military instruction; or
(B) an educational institution having a regular course of military instruction, and having a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps as instructor in military science and tactics. "

Lets break Sub a down by lines:

1) The uniform prescribed by the university, college, or school for an instructor or member of the organized cadet corps of— We are not an educational facility


A) a State university or college, or a public high school, having a regular course of military instruction;  Again not applicable to CAP

or

(B) an educational institution having a regular course of military instruction, and having a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps as instructor in military science and tactics. Not CAP - Read ROTC & JROTC if you will.

I think in my opinion that the referrer needs to refer to the reference and read what they are referring to.

Not trying to be a prick but I'm just going by whats in black and white and using the grey stuff between my ears.

[RiverAux]

Better go arrest all the police and fire departments using metal rank insignia on their uniforms.  By the way, the same codes prevent people from the unauthorized wearing of CAP uniforms so I guess we need to go after the federal forces for wearing OUR insignia.

Police and Fire are authorized under State Authority.

And gee, we are authorized by the Air Force so what is the problem?  They made the determination that the CSU is different enough from a military uniform that CAP can do what it wants with it.  When earlier versions were too "military" they asked for changes and they were made. 

[Smokey]

OK folks ...time to take a chill pill and big deep breath,  now back to the topic of opinion on the NB uniform proposal instead of argueing about authorizations for the uniform bling.

Go to neutral corners.....and play nice nice with the other kids in the sandbox

Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

[stratoflyer]

Where can I find a copy of the agenda?

And can please suggest a better way to search this site? I can never find stuff even using advanced search in google.

[Smokey]

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/NB_2009_Feb_Agenda_BD2E1427664DC.pdf

[stratoflyer]

Thanks!

[flyguync]

Opinions are as follows:

Uniform Agenda Consent Items
28a. Eaker Miniature Medal - Sure, lets face it not everyone can be a Col.
28b. National Color Guard Competition Miniature Medal - No, We look like some South American dictator as it is with bling running aplenty
28c. Gray Epaulets for Females - Agree
Uniform Agenda Action Items
29a. Silver Braid CAP Corporate Uniform - Do away with so were not confused with Delta pilots, I think red as stated before would be a good alternative
29b. Air Force Lightweight Blue Jacket - No, the Grey slides say it all, cadets grey slides w/ metal rank, maybe
29c. CAP Astronaut Aeronautical Rating Designation and Badge (Wings) - Make up one set and present them to him at summer board, whats the big deal??
29d. Commander's Badge- In a word, no. Let current commanders wear the patch/badge only. If not it will give off the impression to many chiefs not enough indians. when you leave office then wear the ribbon. in review - Current commanders badge/patch, former CC's Ribbon. Either, Or, but not both.
29e. Flight Suit Grade Devices - Please O Merciful one lets go with cloth and NO PURPLE
29f. Sweaters for Use with the Corporate Uniform - Why not they will have the grey slides wont they??
29g. Wear of Military Decorations and Mini Medals on Corporate Uniforms -  And while were at it can we have foreign jump wings, and combat patches & tabs please?? All kidding aside I think this is a great idea, so us who no longer meet the lean and mean standards can still show off what we did when we were young dumb and stuid.
29h. Optional Shoulder Patches on BDU - as stated before we need to clean up the uniform not make it more of a Christmas tree. Can we have tabs and combat patches?? J/K guys
29i. Additional Corporate Uniform Outerwear Items - Beating that horse good tonight. Grey slides... Nuf said or Army gear works as well for all CSU wear...
29j. Change of Embroidery Insignia on AF-Style Uniforms -  Pretty Please. It looks a heck of a lot better on the BBDU than the tapes we have now, and change everything to dark blue while your at it.

So any NB board members on here lets settle the uniform issues and start doing something productive..

[Hawk200]

29a. Silver Braid CAP Corporate Uniform - Do away with so were not confused with Delta pilots, I think red as stated before would be a good alternative

Actually, most opinions were against red braid, not for it.

29d. Commander’s Badge- In a word, no. Let current commanders wear the patch/badge only. If not it will give off the impression to many chiefs not enough indians. when you leave office then wear the ribbon. in review - Current commanders badge/patch, former CC's Ribbon. Either, Or, but not both.

The AF commanders badge is worn differently depending on present or former service. Present commanders wear it above the nametag. Former commanders wear it below the nametag. As long as people follow the rules, there wouldn't be any confusion.
AFI 36-2903 states that Command Insignia is mandatory. Since only four badges total are authorized (on service dress, other blue combos seem to be inconsistent), I would make the Commander Badge optional for former commanders.

I would hope that the Powers That Be would be smart enough to eliminate the Command Service ribbon if we wore badges in the same manner as the Air Force. Agreed on one method or the other, but a former commander has no need to wear the Command Badge and a Command Service ribbon. I never bought the ribbon, but if I was allowed to wear the badge as a former commander, I might buy it. If it gets approved, I'll make my decision then.

[jimmydeanno]

There seems to be some animosity towards the NCGC mini-medal proposal.  You guys realize that there is a medal for the drill team competition already right?  I say it's about time that they are catching up on things that should have been created a while ago...

[James Shaw]

I am going to open a pandoras box here! Why dont we just make minis for ALL of the ribbons and get all of this done in one session. I can hear the gears grinding in your head and the keyboards are warming up.

[lordmonar]

I am going to open a pandoras box here! Why dont we just make minis for ALL of the ribbons and get all of this done in one session. I can hear the gears grinding in your head and the keyboards are warming up.

At least we would be consistent.  +1