Opinions on NB uniform proposals

[O-Rex]

29a. Silver Braid CAP Corporate Uniform - Do away with so were not confused with Delta pilots, I think red as stated before would be a good alternative

Actually, most opinions were against red braid, not for it.

29d. Commander's Badge- In a word, no. Let current commanders wear the patch/badge only. If not it will give off the impression to many chiefs not enough indians. when you leave office then wear the ribbon. in review - Current commanders badge/patch, former CC's Ribbon. Either, Or, but not both.

The AF commanders badge is worn differently depending on present or former service. Present commanders wear it above the nametag. Former commanders wear it below the nametag. As long as people follow the rules, there wouldn't be any confusion.
AFI 36-2903 states that Command Insignia is mandatory. Since only four badges total are authorized (on service dress, other blue combos seem to be inconsistent), I would make the Commander Badge optional for former commanders.

I would hope that the Powers That Be would be smart enough to eliminate the Command Service ribbon if we wore badges in the same manner as the Air Force. Agreed on one method or the other, but a former commander has no need to wear the Command Badge and a Command Service ribbon. I never bought the ribbon, but if I was allowed to wear the badge as a former commander, I might buy it. If it gets approved, I'll make my decision then.

As for the braid on the corp uniform, we wouldn't be confused with a airline pilot or first officer, they wear four and three stripes, respectively.  FLIGHT ATTENDANTS wear one stripe, if they are wearing a coat.    The current proposal has merit, but PLEASE, no red on the uniform..

Commanders' badge; I'm a current commander, paid 5 bucks for the little geegaw,  and wouldn't mind wearing it below the pocket seam when I'm done; it's a nice looking badge.  I would not wear it as a sew-on on my BDU's, however-already have enough blue speckles on camo....

I think that the current batch of uniform proposals are for the most part a step in the right direction.  I do feel that the plastic-encased rank issue is Vanguard-driven.

Mini-medals; we have entirely too many of those, but it's at the wearer's discretion what not to wear-become a banana-republic general at your own peril.  Kill the membership and command ribbons.

Dark blue nametapes; anyone notice that the wings, rank and GT badges from Vanguard are now a tad bit darker blue than the nametapes?  Phase dark blue in with with the ABU-streamlines the process, and would be a happy medium for most of those who have been pressing for green nametapes, which is just not going to happen.

Speaking of the ABU, boots are going to become an issue:  ABU Boots go for $100+, and I haven't seen any Korean knockoffs for the 'budget-conscious' on the market yet.  I'd like to keep black boots with the flightsuit, in keeping with all the other antiquated accessories that go with it 

[RiverAux]

I think that the current batch of uniform proposals are for the most part a step in the right direction.  I do feel that the plastic-encased rank issue is Vanguard-driven.

Actually they said it was a non-issue for them as they had found a supplier. 

[O-Rex]

I think that the current batch of uniform proposals are for the most part a step in the right direction.  I do feel that the plastic-encased rank issue is Vanguard-driven.

Actually they said it was a non-issue for them as they had found a supplier. 

The issue we were discussing (on another thread) was the cost to the member: there are many of us of the opinion that $8 for rank on an "operational" uniform (which in itself is not cheap) is a bit much.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Maybe the best way to clean up the mini medal issue is to only authorize them when they are considered a "medal" or an "award," and not a "ribbon."

So here's what would be, under that criteria, a mini medal:

a. CAP Decorations:
(1) Silver Medal of Valor
(2) Bronze Medal of Valor
(3) Distinguished Service Medal
(4) Exceptional Service Award
(5) Meritorious Service Award
(6) Commander's Commendation Award
(7) Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving
(8.) Unit Citation Award
(9) National Commander's Unit Citation Award

b. Senior Program Awards:
(1) Gill Robb Wilson Award
(2) Paul E. Garber Award
(3) Grover Loening Aerospace Award
(4) Senior Member Certificate of Proficiency

c. Cadet Program Awards:
(1) General Carl A. Spaatz Award
(2) Ira C. Eaker Award
(3) Amelia Earhart Award
(4) General Billy Mitchell Award
(5) Frank Borman Falcon Award

d. Brigadier General Charles E. "Chuck"
Yeager Aerospace Achievement Award

e. A. Scott Crossfield Award

Below is what would go bye-bye. Because activity ribbons fall lower than cadet achievement ribbons -- which rightfully don't have mini medals -- medal proposals seem a little silly.

a. Service
(1) Command Service Ribbon
(2) Red Service Ribbon
(3) Wartime Service Ribbon

b. Activity
(1) Search "Find" Ribbon
(2) Air Search and Rescue Ribbon
(3) Counterdrug Ribbon
(4) Disaster Relief Ribbon
(5) Cadet Orientation Pilot Ribbon
(6) IACE Ribbon
(7) National Cadet Competition Ribbon (earned as cadet)
(8.) Encampment Ribbon
(9) Senior Recruiter Ribbon

Am I missing anything?

[Phillip]

I sent my Wing Commander my comments on the uniform items last night.  Here are some of the highlights:

Cloth Rank for Flight Suit:
Thumbs down on purple.  Go for ultramarine blue instead as it is already used on the CAP version of the AF BDUs.  Plastic encased rank is hard to work with and doesn't hold up well in washing (those two facts alone drove me to the Corp flightsuit).  Cloth cheaper to purchase.

Silver Braid on CSU:
Dropping it on the coat is a good idea.  No real need to replace it with something else.  Hand band would look better being black.

Embroidery on AF Lightweight Jacket:
Serves no real purpose, would likely be expensive for an already expensive jacket (if purchased new), and doesn't really look professional.

Sweaters for CSU:
Recommended looking at civilian airline pilot sweaters.  These are not Army Uniform items, but still have a military look.  Available in Navy Blue and Black.  No cardigan version available that I've seen.

CAP Astronaut Badges:
Too few people would qualify for this to spend the time, money, and effort to create the badge.  Those authorized to wear one would already be authorized the military version, which is already authorized on the CAP Uniform (AF style anyway).

Change of Embroidery Insignia on AF-Style Uniforms:
I think the decision to switch from ultramarine to dark blue needs to wait until the configuration of the CAP version of the AF ABU is finalized (and approved) to preclude switching to dark blue then switching again when the CAP ABU is rolled out should dark blue not be used on that uniform.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Cloth Rank for Flight Suit: Thumbs down on purple.  Go for ultramarine blue instead as it is already used on the CAP version of the AF BDUs.  Plastic encased rank is hard to work with and doesn't hold up well in washing (those two facts alone drove me to the Corp flightsuit).  Cloth cheaper to purchase.

AMEN! It's hard to work with, can get caught on things (wouldn't that be a safety issue?) and apparently difficult to find. The Air Force nixed it a long time ago. I figured we were just depleting old stock until a decision was made to go to cloth.

For the same reason the plastic is so rigid, I think we should have the option of cloth flight suit nametags. Standardize a color, and bring 'em on!

[Phillip]

I think we should have the option of cloth flight suit nametags. Standardize a color, and bring 'em on!

If they work out to be cheaper than the leather, which I think the case would be anyway, then I'd support it.  But since it wasn't on the agenda, I didn't mention it to the Wing CC.  Also, I'd like the Grade and Branch removed as well, just name and badge(s).  Now that would save members money over the long haul.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

I think we should have the option of cloth flight suit nametags. Standardize a color, and bring 'em on!

If they work out to be cheaper than the leather, which I think the case would be anyway, then I'd support it.  But since it wasn't on the agenda, I didn't mention it to the Wing CC.  Also, I'd like the Grade and Branch removed as well, just name and badge(s).  Now that would save members money over the long haul.

Agreed. Absolutely, totally agreed. Maybe the name tag should have a place for grade for CAP's enlisted people, who can't wear stripes on a flight suit. But otherwise, name and rating is all you need. The MAJCOM patch is level with the nametag on the other breast, so it's not like you need to have "CAP" on it, either.

[ColonelJack]

Maybe the best way to clean up the mini medal issue is to only authorize them when they are considered a "medal" or an "award," and not a "ribbon."

...

Am I missing anything?

Excellent idea!  (You left off the Membership Ribbon, but nobody's perfect!)

I like it.  It would cut my mini-medal rack from 14 to 9 ... thus preventing anyone from mistaking me for MacArthur or something like that.  And the ones that have the mini-medal phased out would still get ribbons ... so it's win-win for the bling brigade as well.

That said, if such a listing were to be implemented, I would love to see full-size versions of those medals made available as well to those who wished to purchase them for shadow-box display.  (It wouldn't hurt things to have full-size Exceptional & Meritorious Service, Commander's Commendation, Lifesaving, Wilson, and Garber for presentations as well!)  The full-size gongs might be somewhat pricey to the member, since there wouldn't be such a big production run of them, but those who wanted to have and display them would indeed pay for them.

Just a thought.

Jack

[lordmonar]

I think we should have the option of cloth flight suit nametags. Standardize a color, and bring 'em on!

If they work out to be cheaper than the leather, which I think the case would be anyway, then I'd support it.  But since it wasn't on the agenda, I didn't mention it to the Wing CC.  Also, I'd like the Grade and Branch removed as well, just name and badge(s).  Now that would save members money over the long haul.

Agreed. Absolutely, totally agreed. Maybe the name tag should have a place for grade for CAP's enlisted people, who can't wear stripes on a flight suit. But otherwise, name and rating is all you need. The MAJCOM patch is level with the nametag on the other breast, so it's not like you need to have "CAP" on it, either.

Let me just mention that...while AD USAF guys wear cloth name patch with just their names and wings on them (plus squadron mascot, multi-colors and sometiems cool slogans) everyone is supposed to have a standard leather one with name, rank and USAF on it.

So....so long as we stick with the leather name patch we should keep rank and CAP on it....just to keep in line with the "standard" USAF rules.

Now...given that...if we allowed cloth name patches...how would they be controlled?  Would we let wings decide on color and what needs to be on them?  Would we make them simpley silver on black?   I thought the general consensus was to keep the uniform...uniform.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I really hope they decide to ditch the ultramarine blue in favor of dark blue or navy blue.  The BBDU looks "Salty" like the nametapes are faded even when they are brand-new.  Dark blue would work with sew-on rank on the flight suit, and with the new ABU as well.

[MSgt Van]

Maybe the best way to clean up the mini medal issue is to only authorize them when they are considered a "medal" or an "award," and not a "ribbon."

That would put it inline with USAF; Decorations have associated medals, service awards (longevity, etc) do not. (disclaimer - based on the memory of an old retired fart, circa 1994)

[lordmonar]

So...where do we draw the line?

Are the milestones medals or not?
SAR?
Yeager?
SM PD awards?

The problem we go right now is some ribbons that are high up (like the Eaker) do not have medals to go with them...but lower ribbons like the red service do.

Cutting mini-medals may make a little sense...but you will not get a lot of support for taking away something that a lot of members currently have.

[Gunner C]

a. CAP Decorations:
(1) Silver Medal of Valor
(2) Bronze Medal of Valor
(3) Distinguished Service Medal
(4) Exceptional Service Award
(5) Meritorious Service Award
(6) Commander's Commendation Award
(7) Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving
(8.) Unit Citation Award
(9) National Commander's Unit Citation Award

Where else is there in the uniformed world a (mini) medal for unit citations?  Those two should not have mini medals.

b. Senior Program Awards:
(1) Gill Robb Wilson Award
(2) Paul E. Garber Award
(3) Grover Loening Aerospace Award
(4) Senior Member Certificate of Proficiency

c. Cadet Program Awards:
(1) General Carl A. Spaatz Award
(2) Ira C. Eaker Award
(3) Amelia Earhart Award
(4) General Billy Mitchell Award
(5) Frank Borman Falcon Award

There's no reason for mini medals for training awards.  Get rid of these.

d. Brigadier General Charles E. "Chuck"
Yeager Aerospace Achievement Award
e. A. Scott Crossfield Award

Ditto with these.  Get rid of them as minis.

a. Service
(1) Command Service Ribbon

No reason for a command service ribbon, especially if the command badge becomes permanent.

(2) Red Service Ribbon

The RSR is the closest thing we have to the Good Conduct Medal or the Longevity Award.  Keep it.

(3) Wartime Service Ribbon

Why in the world would we want to get rid of a mini for our few remaining WW2 veterans?  Keep it.

b. Activity
(1) Search "Find" Ribbon

This should be moved to the subheading of "Service."  It is central to what we do.  Keep it.

(2) Air Search and Rescue Ribbon

Ditto.

(3) Counterdrug Ribbon
(4) Disaster Relief Ribbon
(5) Cadet Orientation Pilot Ribbon

Not sure about these

(6) IACE Ribbon
(7) National Cadet Competition Ribbon (earned as cadet)
(8.) Encampment Ribbon
(9) Senior Recruiter Ribbon

Get rid of these

[Hawk200]

Maybe the best way to clean up the mini medal issue is to only authorize them when they are considered a "medal" or an "award," and not a "ribbon."

So here's what would be, under that criteria, a mini medal:

Edited for length and to run in the time allotted   

I would lose the Unit Citations. They're not personal decorations, and anyone of that much worth in a unit should be getting other awards.

I would also lose the Senior PD awards. The only equivalents I can think of are the Professional Military Education awards, and they don't have medal equivalents. Do seniors really need a medal for it? You're getting rank in that progression, the medal only shows that you met the requirements. If some people really gotta have them, allow their wear under grandfather clause.

I don't think it's a bad idea to keep the cadet milestones. They're hard earned, and I think it's a good thing to maintain that for prior cadets.

The Yeager, I'd say lose it. It's just a test. If someone asked you what that medal was, and you answered: "I passed a written test", how do you think they'd look at that? (Besides, it's 85 cents for a ribbon, and almost $7 for the mini medal, that's a lot to pay for as the result of just taking a test).

Crossfield? Leave it a ribbon. I still don't care for the idea of someone ending up with three different types of awards for a specialty track, but it's here. Grandfather it if someone is so stuck on having that extra medal.

In the interest of everyone getting something, I'd say keep the Red Service, but start treating it like it would be a combination of an Air Force Longevity ribbon, and the AF Good Conduct medal. Do two years and keep your nose clean, and you'll get one.

We really need to start treating medals as medals. We cheapen the medals when we start making ribbons into medal type of insignia. It's a little hard to think of someone as someone who has gone above and beyond with a huge rack of medals when you know that anyone in CAP will all get the same ones. There was an old joke that all Air Force personnel should be issued all medals because they get them all anyway (yeah, I know it's not true, but does CAP want to be the kind of organization that proves the joke, or comes close to it?).

[MikeD]

I've been out of it due to working too much and might have posted this already but...

What about the ABU?  Or at least green boots with BDUs being allowed (as USAF does)? 

[James Shaw]

The wear of these ribbons and minis is for the most part completly optional. With a few exceptions most are not required to wear them. They are only worn on sparse occasions. Instead of omitting them would just be easier to choose "not to wear" some of them. It is a choice we have. Wear the ones you want and have earned and leave the rest in the drawer. There are few occasions that would "require" us to have them all.

Just a little .02 worth.

[BillB]

GunnerC. The Senior COP ribbon was discontinued in the 1990's. The only COP ribbon authorized is the Cadet COP and there is a mini medal for that. The basic Cadet COP would be equal to todays Mitchell. The Cadet COP with three clasps for completion of achievements 7, 8, and 9 would be roughly equal to the Spaatz. Also you leave out the National Commander Citation. This was the highest training award in the Senior training program. The Gil Robb Wilson was one step below the National Commanders Citation. And I believe there is a mini-medal for the National Commanders Citiation.

[JayT]

I've been out of it due to working too much and might have posted this already but...

What about the ABU?  Or at least green boots with BDUs being allowed (as USAF does)? 

That's really kind of a none issue, considering that our current BDU's and black boots are completely aviable.......

[Major Carrales]

In the interest of everyone getting something, I'd say keep the Red Service, but start treating it like it would be a combination of an Air Force Longevity ribbon, and the AF Good Conduct medal. Do two years and keep your nose clean, and you'll get one.

I have always thought that fusing the purpose of the Membership and Red Service ribbon was the best course of action.  Instead of a RED SERVICE ribbon, some longevity device on the membership ribbon would be called for. 

I, historically speaking, do realize the RED, BLUE, GREEN (etc) ribbons were once authorized and the Red Service ribbon is likely an hommage to those early CAP awards.