CAP Decorations: DSM, ESA, MSA, etc.

[Eclipse]

If that were true.....then we would never give out any awards for anyone not on group staff or above.

You don't have to be on group staff to have an impact that is more than one unit.

I, personally, have no idea what the real intent of the Achievement award was, and it has never been clearly spelled out.  I do know that many unit CC's treat is as the "Comm-Comm Consolation Prize" and make the Group CC the "bad guy" instead of the Wing CC when requesting decs.

One recommendation that we have made to the wing is to formulate the Wing's promotions and decorations board with 1 member from each group and 1 rep from Wing, then submit all decoration through that board, even the Ach's.  This would help squash the unintentional nepotism that comes with familiarity.

[DBlair]

One factor in the lack of award of the various ribbons is that some units just don't or won't put people in for the awards. as a former Wing DP I would beg for nominees for the several Wing Member of the Year awards. In that wing of about 30 units we would typically get 5 nominations. Same for the ribboned awards. It was always "someone else's responsibility" or a case of  "I don't believe in awards" or "it wouldn't go through if I did write one up"  In this they were right, They didn't write the individuals up so the award never came down. Then Commanders would wonder why they had a retention problem. A good friend said it best when she retired as a LtCol " No one ever said  Thank You"

I think you hit the nail right on the head...

[bosshawk]

IMHO, those who demur saying "nobody will approve it if I write it" are simply lazy.  In my experience in seven or eight years on the CAWG staff, I never had a recommendation for an award turned down nor downgraded.  Just for comparison, I probably did eight to ten a year for my staff in the CD program.  I know that my successor has put everyone on the staff in for an award this year and, so far, they have all been approved.  And all of this in a Wing where awards are hard to come by.  I suppose that it helps to have some experience in writing up the recommendations(after 30 years of doing it in the RM, I have a fair knowledge of the words to use) helps.

Our pay sucks, so awards are about the only thing we have to give people who bust their butts in a program.  "Thanks" goes a fair distance, but something tangible really goes over well.

[James Shaw]

"Thanks" goes a fair distance, but something tangible really goes over well.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[DBlair]

Our pay sucks, so awards are about the only thing we have to give people who bust their butts in a program.  "Thanks" goes a fair distance, but something tangible really goes over well.

Well said.  :clap:

[DBlair]

Perfect example of where I'd have an issue, and this has come up in my wing as well.

Achievement Awards should have a Group-level scope.  Encampments are wing-level activities.

Appropriate awards for encampment staffers are Comm Comm's.

Disagree.

Both on the scope and the fact that an encampment is a wing level event.

The award should be tied to a scope of responsibility.   Squadron staff or squadron staff like responsibililty (even if it at National HQ) is right for an Acheivment award.  So all your rank and file encampment staff should have the general responsibilities of a squadron staffer.....even if the event is a wing level activity (i.e. it supports the whole wing).  The same would go for NCSA staffers even if that is a National event.

Just because the Group CC is the approving authority for the award....it does not mean that the accomplishments of the individual must also have a direct impact at a group level.

If that were true.....then we would never give out any awards for anyone not on group staff or above.

Just as CAP Producer said....it is about the scope of responsibiliy.....not the "level" of the event that matters.

I agree with you, it should not necessarily be about the 'level' but rather what the member 'actually' does. Otherwise, we end up with unproductive members at Wing, Region, and National sporting MSA, ESA, and maybe even DSMs, yet not having actually done anything of note.


For the sake of discussion, I was curious where these examples fall into...

- While some roles at Encampment are indeed akin to squadron duties, what about the positions of Commander, Deputy Commander, Commandant, Cadet Commander, etc? When the position involves leading an activity of 15-20 flights (perhaps even more) and a few hundred members (perhaps from multiple wings), this would be a bit more than normal "squadron" duties. Would these positions still yield a CC, or is a higher decoration justified?

- When discussing the scope of involvement, what about those Groups that are larger than most Wings. For example, my Group covers a geographic area (7 FL counties) larger than most Wings, with ~25 decently large squadrons. Some of these Group Staff Officers are much more like Wing-level Director positions. Would these staff officers still be recognized like other Squadron or Group-level staff with an AA or CC, or would they be recognized similar to Wing Staff with MSA and ESA?

- What about special projects that are not exactly structured around a squadron/flight structure. An example would be the Project Officer and Assistant Project Officers running a Wing Cadet Competition, or a Director of a Wing-level PD Course (students from around the Wing/Region), or at a more local level, the Project Officers coordinating a unit/group Drill Team?


Just figured I'd throw these out there for comment as they seem to be somewhat unique when applying the scope model.

[lordmonar]

When we are talking about specail projects not base on a wing or unit.....you look at the level of responsibility the individual had with in the project itself  (i.e. the Big Cheeze in Charge....vs a low level gofer) and the level of impact that project had.

For example......the director of wing wide cadet NCO course...is the big cheeze.  The course had about 20 staff members and 50 particpants.   That is similar to size and scope to a mid sized squadron.....so you would compare his accomplishments to other squadron commanders.

The same program but held at a regional or national level you would take into consideration that the impact of the program had a wider effect and you can consider upping the level of the award.

ON the other hand you take a look at a National Level program (that is it is run out of NHQ) but has no direct impact on anyone outside of NHQ (say an upgrade to the computers at the NHQ offices).  That award would be the same as the one you would give to a squadron level IT officer....(assuming you had a squadron with the same amount of computer hardware as NHQ).

The same goes for when you look at your encampment CC and staff.   If you have a huge encampment then the top guys who really had a responsibility of wing or group staffer then you would award that level of award.

--I think I spelled out MSM for the C/CC and Director and maybe their top 2-3 staffers.  Commander Comms for the senior staffers and Acheivment for the rank and file encampment staff.

The issue with different sized units with the same names.....we that is just one of the problems we have to deal with, considering how CAP is organised.  A squadron is a squadron......whether you have the minimun 10 (IIRC) or if you have some super squadron with 300 people (one of the SEP squadrons is about that big IIRC).

Is it "unfair"?  Sure...in a lot of ways....but you have to build some sort of frame work to get any sort of standardisation.

[DBlair]

As I was reading through CAPP39-3, I noticed the sample CAPF120s for each decoration, and found the sample criteria to be interesting...



DSM:
Vice Wing Commander serving as Project Officer, overseeing CAP's involvement in providing airborne security to the Winter Olympics.

ESA:
Encampment Admin Officer who performed well, but was not able to attend the weekly meetings prior to Encampment.

MSA:
Wing Director of Cadet Programs for 1 year. Accomplishments include holding a Cadet Aerospace Day where 5 Cadets earned their Rocketry Badge, planning several sessions/events at the Wing Conference, co-Directed a TLC, Staffed an SLS, and Directed a CLC.

Commander's Commendation:
Recognizing service as an ROTC program director-- not for CAP service.

Achievement Award:
Recognizing a member for his mentoring of new members-- success is defined as members renewing membership and participating in CAP training.


Any thoughts?

[Eclipse]

Commander's Commendation:
Recognizing service as an ROTC program director-- not for CAP service.

Inappropriate.  We should not be giving people decorations for service outside CAP.  ROTC already has their own awards, and being an ROTC director has nothing to do with CAP anymore than being a local CERT coordinator, or ARC shelter manager would.

We are not the military, especially from the perspective that the military recognizes community and volunteer service because to someone in the USAF, for example, CAP is done during your spare time.  CAP members only serve in their spare time (theoretically).  We should not be recognizing people for doing other stuff which takes them away from CAP, even if that "other" is a really good thing.

Further, an ROTC program director is a paid position, isn't it?  So CAP is going to give people decorations for doing their jobs?
Would you give a Wing Administrator who is also a member a Comm Comm for being a good Wing Admin?  Of course not.

Can I get one for being a Motorcycle Safety Instructor on base?

[DakRadz]

Commander's Commendation:
Recognizing service as an ROTC program director-- not for CAP service.

Inappropriate.

Further, an ROTC program director is a paid position, isn't it?  So CAP is going to give people decorations for doing their jobs?

I agree specifically with the parts I left in.

An ROTC program director is not just a paid position- it is an Active Duty military assignment. The director is a commissioned officer who is assigned/posted/stationed there. Now, I'm not saying that they shouldn't be recognized, but not in CAP...

If this is the case, anyone with a Bronze Star or above and is in CAP needs to have some sort of CAP decoration as well...

[jimmydeanno]

Dang.  If those are the examples, I think most of us here should have at least 10 ESAs this year...

[lordmonar]

Dang.  If those are the examples, I think most of us here should have at least 10 ESAs this year...

+1

[RiverAux]

That is a lot higher than I would have expected for an encampment staff officer.  For the encampment commander, sure, but I'm not sure we've even awarded an MSA for that...

[DBlair]

Dang.  If those are the examples, I think most of us here should have at least 10 ESAs this year...

+1

Exactly what I was thinking. Most of us would have quite an array of decorations.

If those are the standards, then we really are awarding these far less often than we previously assumed.