Getting rid of the AF service uniform

[Major Lord]

"There are a lot of Army badges I earned while serving my uncle that I cannot wear on any CAP uniform.  Why, 'cuz the AF says so.  CAP is not in that loop."

Yet another sound argument for the authorization of the Girl Scout or Klingon bling/flare sash!

Major Lord

[lordmonar]

If I were to walk around the BX at Nellis, I would probably see about that many uniform combinations, wouldn't I?

BDU
ABU
Green Flight Suits
Tan Flight Suits
Blue Flights Suits (if the TBirds were in town  )
Cooks Whites
Medical Whites
Service Dress
PFU

And somehow they manage to hold it together long enough to fight and win our nation's wars.

Sure they do.  And each and everyone of those uniforms work together.

You go to chow hall and everyone is in whites, you go to the hospitol and everyone is in scrubs, you go to the T-birds and everyone is in blues.....The ABU/BDU thing is a transition that is will be fixed next year....the point being is that everyone is wearing a uniform that is driven by the job that they are doing....not by whether or not they meet standards or not.  USAF personnel with a shaving waiver do not have to put on some sort of alternate uniform.  Those who can't pass their PT test do not have to wear an alternte uniform.  There is no outward distinction between them.

Uniforms are not going to make or break us.  I never said that we can't do our jobs with our current multi-forms.  HOWEVER, we could do our job better if we got a single uniform.

I don't really care which one....I will wear what ever CAP and the USAF decides to come up with.  But if we don't then all the lip service we give to cadets and senior members about the importance of wearing uniforms properly is a little undermined.  The image we project to our outside customers is tarnished a little.

Add to this the fact that some people just can't or won't wear the uniforms properly makes the problem even worse.

We need to approach the AF with a united voice and seek a return to the "pre-1985" status quo ante, or some other reasonable alternative.

But this kind of bickering over who can lose weight if they want to, or who "deseves" to be able to wear military badges is at best a waste of time and bandwidth, but worse actually undercuts our ability to approach our AF colleagues with a consensus proposal.

+1

[Rotorhead]

Wow Newbie, I was with you the 100% the entire way until the Plessy v Ferguson part, when you really jumped off the deep end.

I agree. That's a frankly insulting comparison.

[Eclipse]

Wow - CAP members who feel unnoticed or under-appreciated by their peers because they can't wear their military rack!  Strangely I am unmoved by their pain....

So you believe it is perfectly acceptable for a large percentage of our membership to be earning and awarded badges and other bling that
they can never wear simply because they are a little heavier?

As is pointed out regularly, USAF officer do not generally wear ribbons on their shirts, we're almost all officers on some level, so what's the point of even awarding ribbons if you can't wear them, or can't wear them when you are in your most formal situations - the very reason they are intended.

Or how about encampment commanders who put in hundreds of hours of preparation time and then look like security guards on the dais next to the military and CAP brass in their finest (many of which, btw, are wearing uniforms far beyond a "fudge", because they believe its more "important" to look military than follow the rules).

This is the way you treat volunteers?

If the ribbons are somehow "unimportant" for some, they are unimportant for all, and we should dump them and move on.

[Short Field]

So you believe it is perfectly acceptable for a large percentage of our membership to be earning and awarded badges and other bling that they can never wear simply because they are a little heavier? 

A large percentage of our membership are earning military medals and ribbons but are too heavy to wear the Air Force Style uniform?  I find that just a little hard to believe.   Yes, I know you can be too heavy to wear the Air Force Style uniform but be within regs to wear a Air Force uniform (I know I was).  But a large percentage?   

Everyone can wear everything they earn in CAP.  But what you are talking about are the people who feel discriminated against because they can't wear bling they earned somewhere OTHER than in CAP.   You mean their entire self-worth in CAP is connected to being able to show how important they were when they were in the military? 

we're almost all officers on some level, so what's the point of even awarding ribbons if you can't wear them, or can't wear them when you are in your most formal situations - the very reason they are intended. 

I don't know about your stuff, but my military medals and ribbons were intended for wear on my military uniform.  They were NOT awarded just so I could wear them on a CAP AF Style uniform.   That is simply a courtesy afforded by the AF and has nothing to do with why they were awarded to begin with.  Unless you want to count the Volunteer Medal you can get for volunteering with CAP.   

If you can't meet the standards, you have no business in a CAP AF Style uniform.  If they want to allow the wear of military ribbons on a CAP corporate uniform, fine. 

[Eclipse]

Everyone can wear everything they earn in CAP.  But what you are talking about are the people who feel discriminated against because they can't wear bling they earned somewhere OTHER than in CAP.

No they can't and no I'm not.  I have no interest in the "military medals on distinctive uniforms" discussion, nor any foot in that game.
I simply want to be able to dress like my peers and be able to wear the same badges I have earned in a similar way.  Cricket is cricket.

I am talking about CAP decorations and badges, and unless you're making things up as you go along, you certainly cannot wear everything you have earned with the CAP blazer. You actually can't wear anything on it.  So your choice is to look like a hotel security guard next to your troops, or a goof who forgot his jacket.  Excellent choice.

As to a large percentage?  I would be willing to bet a steak dinner (maybe it should be a salad?) that at least 1/3 of our senior members are out of grooming for weight, more if you include the ones wearing blues who should not be, and at least in my AOR that 1/3 are some of the most active, go-to members.

[Hawk200]

 

Another inequity.  On AF style service uniforms (and the current CSU), members can wear up to five specialty and qualification badges.  For example, I can wear observer wings, EMT badge (or GTM badge at my option), and specialty badges for CP, comm and logistics (any two if my choice).  If I was a commander, I would have the option of wearing that badge as well.  That's alotta bling!  And I have seen members wearing that much.  But, with the current grey/white combo, I'm limited to only two badges total.

Actually, incorrect. Need to read that manual. CAPM 39-1, Chapter 6, Section B., Para 6-2. Policy: "A maximum of four badges/devices may be worn on the AF-style uniforms." (I'll omit the CSU in that quote because I haven't read the ICL's lately.)

It's a direct mirroring of 36-2903. As to the folks you've seen wearing five, they're wrong. But that hasn't stopped a lot of people. It's not wrong to them if they don't think it's wrong. Unfortunately, those that don't say something are contributing to the wrong.

I will agree, the inconsistency in the number of badges between shirts is strange at best, stupid at worst. The only difference should be the color of the shirt. However, as a possibility, it may just never have been updated. It's not like nothing has ever been left out.

Military ribbons and decorations are another animal entirely.  I'm eligible to wear two military ribbons, both USCG awards.  But, because I earned them in the CGAux, the regs are sufficiently muddied that it was easier not to wear them at all (before being forced into corporate uniforms) than listen to the crowd that says I didn't earn them in active military service.  Should they be allowed on corporate uniforms?  I don't know, and really don't have a dog in that hunt.

That's a case where one pub disagrees with another, or adds additional stipulations that are really unnecessary.

I really think it's inconsistent to allow the wear of civilian and foreign decorations, but not state ones. A personal peeve, many disagree with me on the issue.

It seems some people are getting it and some others are not. Maybe I've been too long winded. Here is the short version (minus the emotional Plessy v. Ferguson reference for those who got lost earlier  )

1. All CAP uniforms are CAP corporate uniforms - even the AF-Style. CAP does not wear AF regulation uniforms. CAP uniforms are not military service uniforms, even the AF-Style.

Your end logic that we can do whatever we want with blues is in direct contradiction (and a woefully uninformed opinion) with the Air Force Instruction (which, by the way is 10-2701). I've said before, CAP is in no way, shape or form an autonomous organization. CAP members need to realize that, and break themselves of the habit thinking that it is. Recent history shows what happens when someone thinks in such a manner.

The appropriate reference (page 8, para 1.3.2.) states: "The Air Force controls the configuration of the Air Force-style uniform worn by CAP members.''

Personally, I have a little bit of issue with the semantics of it, but that's off the subject, so I won't bother.

3. CAP is governed by CAP and AF together; not CAP alone, nor AF alone. The Board of Governors has 4 AF Members and 4 CAP members who are equal in authority. (However, I would argue that CAP leadership takes precedence).

And back to that AFI, page 9, para 1.4. "Air Force Authority and Control. By law, the SECAF, or his designee, may regulate and impose limitations on CAP."

So you believe it is perfectly acceptable for a large percentage of our membership to be earning and awarded badges and other bling that they can never wear simply because they are a little heavier?

What badges and other bling are some CAP members earning that others are not?

Or how about encampment commanders who put in hundreds of hours of preparation time and then look like security guards on the dais next to the military and CAP brass in their finest (many of which, btw, are wearing uniforms far beyond a "fudge", because they believe its more "important" to look military than follow the rules).

Both aspects I'll agree on. I still think simply creating a uniform (as in standardized pattern and color) blazer (along with uniform pants), and then putting ribbons and badges on it would work.

The AFI says "CAP distinctive uniforms must be sufficiently different from U.S. Armed Forces uniforms so that confusion will not occur." Doesn't seem to say anywhere that ribbons/badges aren't permitted on CAP distinctive uniforms. And I can't really think of a branch that has a two tone option (blue top, grey bottom) that looks similar to our blazer combo.

Too bad the CSU wasn't presented in a proper manner, it might possibly have been the alternative that held.

If the ribbons are somehow "unimportant" for some, they are unimportant for all, and we should dump them and move on.

Strikes me more like "If I can't have them, no one can".

As to why they aren't permitted on other than blues, don't know. If it requires permission from each branch, it wouldn't really take much to obtain it.

Of course, if one branch wouldn't agree, then there would be the inevitable cry of "Such and such branch is making people second class citizens!" It's the same load of crap now, but if such a thing were to happen, it would simply be a different target.  Or, people would ignorantly blame CAP again.

As far as the "second class citizen" stuff goes: People, do some research. If you think not being allowed to wear mil bling on your corporates makes you a second class citizen, then you are woefully ignorant as to what a second class citizen actually is. Please stop the excessive exaggeration, it's going to hinder and harm rather than help.

[tdepp]

I think you make a good point about the military ribbons.  Seems if you earned them you should be able to wear them on either the AF or CSU uniform.  Perhaps someone can explain why the difference exists?

Because some services uniform regulations/manuals prohibit it.

To expand on that, the corporate uniforms are classed as civilian clothing. As such, wear of military ribbons and insignia is prohibited, unless covered as a specific exception. CAP corporate uniforms are not covered by any exception that I know about.

Link to my previous leg work: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=5575.msg106595#msg106595

Mike:
Thanks. Not coming from a military background, this now makes more sense to me.  So, basically, CAP can't authorize the wear of military ribbons on certain uniforms because a military service prohibits it or at least has restrictions on it.  So, it's not really up to CAP, even if CAP would approve of the wear of those ribbons.  It would be the USAF v. CSU writ large. 

[Short Field]

I am talking about CAP decorations and badges, and unless you're making things up as you go along, you certainly cannot wear everything you have earned with the CAP blazer.

Blazer??  I thought you were ranting about not being able to wear military awards with the corporate uniform.

I would be willing to bet a steak dinner (maybe it should be a salad?) that at least 1/3 of our senior members are out of grooming for weight, more if you include the ones wearing blues who should not be, and at least in my AOR that 1/3 are some of the most active, go-to members.

So they are NOT earning military awards...  FYI - senior members can only be out of grooming for weight IF they attempt to wear a AF Style uniform.  If they are in corporate uniforms, they MEET the grooming standard.

[tdepp]

I think part of the "battle," if you will is the reality and perception about CAP and what it is and isn't.  It is an odd entity that is both a private, non-profit corporation and an official auxiliary of a branch of the US Military.  CAP has its own governance but ultimate control and dollars lies in the USAF.  Its organization and mission has roots in the military and WWII but our world and nation has changed and faces new threats that were unimaginable in the 1940s. 

So given the nature of our organization and the forces at play (and sometimes at odds with each other), it probably isn't too surprising that what uniform(s) we can and should wear is such a hot and ongoing topic.

Maybe we bring just back the WWII khakis and red loops and call it good. 

With our current split personality as an organization (and I'm not saying that's a bad thing), there's probably always going to be a debate over unis, ribbons, badges, and such.

[Slim]

Another inequity.  On AF style service uniforms (and the current CSU), members can wear up to five specialty and qualification badges.  For example, I can wear observer wings, EMT badge (or GTM badge at my option), and specialty badges for CP, comm and logistics (any two if my choice).  If I was a commander, I would have the option of wearing that badge as well.  That's alotta bling!  And I have seen members wearing that much.  But, with the current grey/white combo, I'm limited to only two badges total.

Actually, incorrect. Need to read that manual. CAPM 39-1, Chapter 6, Section B., Para 6-2. Policy: "A maximum of four badges/devices may be worn on the AF-style uniforms." (I'll omit the CSU in that quote because I haven't read the ICL's lately.)

It's a direct mirroring of 36-2903. As to the folks you've seen wearing five, they're wrong. But that hasn't stopped a lot of people. It's not wrong to them if they don't think it's wrong. Unfortunately, those that don't say something are contributing to the wrong.

I will agree, the inconsistency in the number of badges between shirts is strange at best, stupid at worst. The only difference should be the color of the shirt. However, as a possiblity, it may just never have been updated. It's not like nothing has ever been left out.

Military ribbons and decorations are another animal entirely.  I'm eligible to wear two military ribbons, both USCG awards.  But, because I earned them in the CGAux, the regs are sufficiently muddied that it was easier not to wear them at all (before being forced into corporate uniforms) than listen to the crowd that says I didn't earn them in active military service.  Should they be allowed on corporate uniforms?  I don't know, and really don't have a dog in that hunt.

That's a case where one pub disagrees with another, or adds additional stipulations that are really unnecessary.

I really think it's inconsistent to allow the wear of civilian and foreign decorations, but not state ones. A personal peeve, many disagree with me on the issue.

It seems some people are getting it and some others are not. Maybe I've been too long winded. Here is the short version (minus the emotional Plessy v. Ferguson reference for those who got lost earlier  )

1. All CAP uniforms are CAP corporate uniforms - even the AF-Style. CAP does not wear AF regulation uniforms. CAP uniforms are not military service uniforms, even the AF-Style.

Your end logic that we can do whatever we want with blues is in direct contradiction (and a woefully uninformed opinion) with the Air Force Instruction (which, by the way is 10-2701). I've said before, CAP is in no way, shape or form an autonomous organization. CAP members need to realize that, and break themselves of the habit thinking that it is. Recent history shows what happens when someone thinks in such a manner.

The appropriate reference (page 8, para 1.3.2.) states: "The Air Force controls the configuration of the Air Force-style uniform worn by CAP members.''

Personally, I have a little bit of issue with the semantics of it, but that's off the subject, so I won't bother.

3. CAP is governed by CAP and AF together; not CAP alone, nor AF alone. The Board of Governors has 4 AF Members and 4 CAP members who are equal in authority. (However, I would argue that CAP leadership takes precedence).

And back to that AFI, page 9, para 1.4. "Air Force Authority and Control. By law, the SECAF, or his designee, may regulate and impose limitations on CAP."

So you believe it is perfectly acceptable for a large percentage of our membership to be earning and awarded badges and other bling that they can never wear simply because they are a little heavier?

What badges and other bling are some CAP members earning that others are not?

Or how about encampment commanders who put in hundreds of hours of preparation time and then look like security guards on the dais next to the military and CAP brass in their finest (many of which, btw, are wearing uniforms far beyond a "fudge", because they believe its more "important" to look military than follow the rules).

Both aspects I'll agree on. I still think simply creating a uniform (as in standardized pattern and color) blazer (along with uniform pants), and then putting ribbons and badges on it would work.

The AFI says "CAP distinctive uniforms must be sufficiently different from U.S. Armed Forces uniforms so that confusion will not occur." Doesn't seem to say anywhere that ribbons/badges aren't permitted on CAP distinctive uniforms. And I can't really think of a branch that has a two tone option (blue top, grey bottom) that looks similar to our blazer combo.

Too bad the CSU wasn't presented in a proper manner, it might possibly have been the alternative that held.

If the ribbons are somehow "unimportant" for some, they are unimportant for all, and we should dump them and move on.

Strikes me more like "If I can't have them, no one can".

As to why they aren't permitted on other than blues, don't know. If it requires permission from each branch, it wouldn't really take much to obtain it.

Of course, if one branch wouldn't agree, then there would be the inevitable cry of "Such and such branch is making people second class citizens!" It's the same load of crap now, but if such a thing were to happen, it would simply be a different target.  Or, people would ignorantly blame CAP again.

As far as the "second class citizen" stuff goes: People, do some research. If you think not being allowed to wear mil bling on your corporates makes you a second class citizen, then you are woefully ignorant as to what a second class citizen actually is. Please stop the excessive exaggeration, it's going to hinder and harm rather than help.

Hawk,

Please check your quote tags.  Of those quotes, the only ones I made are the first two.  The other quotes you attributed to me were actually Eclipse.

I readily own what I say, as long as I'm the one who says it.  Even though I tend to agree with Eclipse.

[SarDragon]

So they are NOT earning military awards...  FYI - senior members can only be out of grooming for weight IF they attempt to wear a AF Style uniform.  If they are in corporate uniforms, they MEET the grooming standard.

Not exactly. Those members who are only overweight can wear the CSU. Those members who do not meet grooming standards can not. Grooming does not refer to weight standards.

[Eclipse]

So you believe it is perfectly acceptable for a large percentage of our membership to be earning and awarded badges and other bling that they can never wear simply because they are a little heavier?

What badges and other bling are some CAP members earning that others are not?

Its not that that anyone is earning different badges, decs, or grade, its that everyone earns the same stuff in the same way, but
a good percentage of the membership can't wear it properly (sans the CSU).

There's not much point in a ribbon rack with 20 ribbons if you're going to tell me most USAF officers don't wear ribbons on their shirts and the only jacket I'm allowed to wear doesn't allow anything but a name tag and a crest.

If the ribbons are somehow "unimportant" for some, they are unimportant for all, and we should dump them and move on.

Strikes me more like "If I can't have them, no one can".

That's fair - but where is that logic flawed?  We're all in this together as members of equal standing.  Goose, I'd like to introduce gander, its time you guys started getting along..

We're all the same, do the same jobs, earn the same badges, and receive the same zero pay, so why is one set of members entitled to be all shiny and fancy and another not so much?  Is Jim's Garber somehow "less" then John's because of a number on the scale?  Are Mike 's 150 hours spent planning an encampment and or throwing sandbags "less" the skinny little fellers over there with the same decs?
Why are the little feller's on his jacket and Mike's in a shadow box at home when the Mayor comes to shake their hands in thanks.

Also, for the record, I don't know where Shortfield got off on this tangent, but this thread has never been about wearing mil-decs on the distinctive uniforms.

[Hawk200]

Hawk,

Please check your quote tags.  Of those quotes, the only ones I made are the first two.  The other quotes you attributed to me were actually Eclipse.

Sorry, Slim, I'll get to cleaning that up.

[Hawk200]

If the ribbons are somehow "unimportant" for some, they are unimportant for all, and we should dump them and move on.

Strikes me more like "If I can't have them, no one can".

That's fair - but where is that logic flawed?  We're all in this together as members of equal standing.  Goose, I'd like to introduce gander, its time you guys started getting along..

We're all the same, do the same jobs, earn the same badges, and receive the same zero pay, so why is one set of members entitled to be all shiny and fancy and another not so much?  Is Jim's Garber somehow "less" then John's because of a number on the scale?  Are Mike 's 150 hours spent planning an encampment and or throwing sandbags "less" the skinny little fellers over there with the same decs?
Why are the little feller's on his jacket and Mike's in a shadow box at home when the Mayor comes to shake their hands in thanks.

It's been pointed out that badges and decs are permitted on the white shirt. The tradition of Air Force officers not wearing decs is a moot point. CAP has no such "tradition". The manual permits it. Period. You can't claim that you're being discriminated against if you impose a restriction on yourself with no reality to it.

Is it inequitable that they can't be worn on the blazer? Yeah, I'd say so. So tell me why they can't be added to the blazer(other than the obvious). The AFI doesn't restrict it, it only says CAP uniforms can't look like any Armed Forces uniform. That's it.

So why not push for a change on the equality note, and make it equal or something closer to it? Or is it just more comfortable for you to deny everyone the privilege? Why is it so important to you that I not have the option?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The AFI doesn't restrict it, it only says CAP uniforms can't look like any Armed Forces uniform. That's it.

Which is, of course, nicely vague.

The CSU service coat did not look like any Armed Forces uniform, unless one is completely clueless about what Armed Forces uniforms look like.  It did not have anything on it that said "Air Force," and it did not have any Air Force insignia.  I don't count the hard rank.  The Armed Forces don't have proprietary rights to eagles, clusters, stars and bars; otherwise a lot of police departments and private security firms would be up the creek.

Yes, having the plain blue AF epaulettes with no distinguishing mark was probably not the best idea.  At least they should have been like the pre-berry boards blue CAP epaulettes.

Yes, it had AF trousers and headgear, but the AF signed off on that after modifications.

But, again, one would hope that an Airman, Soldier, Sailor, Coastie or Marine who has at least completed Basic Training would know enough about uniform recognition to know what an Air Force officer looks like.

If nothing else, the CSU with service coat looked like the Soviet Air Force and a TSA screener's without.

Blue?  As has been pointed out, the Air Force does not have a monopoly on blue, any more than the Army did on green.

The bit about "low light/at a distance" needs to be clarified.  As currently worded, it can be used to veto anything that isn't pink, purple or emergency orange (or a combination of all three).

And for the grey/white supporters...another poster pointed out that West Pointers sometimes wear a similar uniform (which I hadn't known).

[arajca]

It's been pointed out that badges and decs are permitted on the white shirt.

There's a significant difference in what badges can be worn on the white shirt vs the AF shirt.
White shirt: One aeronautical and one other OR one other
AF shirt: Max of four, no more than two over the left pocket or above the ribbons

So, say two members each have GT, Command, and a few PD badges. Member A, wearing the AF shirt wears GT, Command, and senior Logistics. Member B, wearing the white shirt, can only wear ONE, despite the badges different wearlocations on the uniform. 

The tradition of Air Force officers not wearing decs is a moot point. CAP has no such "tradition". The manual permits it. Period. You can't claim that you're being discriminated against if you impose a restriction on yourself with no reality to it.

How many times are members told they shouldn't wear their ribbons on the shirt because AF officers don't? I have been told this many times, typically by non-veteran or non-military members. I have been told to take them off more than once for the same reason. Those folks don't care what is permitted, since the AF permits officers to wear their ribbons on the shirt, it's just tradition the prohibits it.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I have been told to take them off more than once for the same reason. Those folks don't care what is permitted, since the AF permits officers to wear their ribbons on the shirt, it's just tradition the prohibits it.

Are you talking about the blue or white shirts?

It is true that a lot of AF people (not just officers) don't wear ribbons on the blue shirt, but that's out of choice, not regs.

However, others do.

One guy in my squadron has been in the Navy and Air National Guard in addition to CAP, and he wears all his ribbons, properly mounted and clean, on his blue shirt.

If you are wearing devices that you have earned, have documentation to prove it, and are in compliance with CAPR's and AFI's, for someone to tell you not to wear them on your shirt is out of line.

I've seen cadets that have more fruit salad than Stormin' Norman Schwarzkopf and Colin Powell put together...and they wear them on their shirts.

[Eclipse]

So why not push for a change on the equality note, and make it equal or something closer to it? Or is it just more comfortable for you to deny everyone the privilege? Why is it so important to you that I not have the option?

Again, no reason to pretend I said things I didn't.

I don't want to deny anyone, anything, nor do I advocate dropping the USAF uniforms.  I simply want all members to have an equal
level of dress for whatever occasions come up as pat of their normal duties.  The CSU addressed that, and the current ICL fixed the small issues it still had.  If we lose the CSU, then we're back where we started.

[a2capt]

The only time I have seen a "no ribbons" *request* is at R/NSC, and similar 1-2 day class/training events. I will note that it seems that it's generally done when the event is held on an AFB or where there's AF presence.

When I asked about the reasoning, I can't recall the exact answer but it was along the lines of keeping a simple uniform combination for the day/several day/week long event.  Not having to worry about placement, condition, etc.