Getting rid of the AF service uniform

[Bill]

1. When does a uniform become a military style uniform?  I would think it would be when the clothing has been adopted by a branch of the military service, or a service from a foreign nation.

2. What is the color of military style uniforms adopted by the U.S. Department of Defense?  Well they have many colors and types of service dress uniforms, but for the most part each of the branches of our military services, and the two official auxiliaries use the color blue in their service dress uniform.

3.  Several comments have been made about the white and gray uniform not being a military uniform, but you could quickly find the the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, uses this uniform with a white service hat as one of their service uniforms (which I have several photos).

4.  The USCG and USCG Auxiliary uniforms differ in four major ways; first the Auxiliary uses silver braid and not gold used by active and reserve forces, secondly the metal grade insignia worn by the Auxiliary all have a large enamel "A" superimposed on the grade,  third all the buttons are silver with the Auxiliary seal on them and not the Coast Guards, and finally the eagle worn on both the service (combination) hat and the Garrison (Flight) cap are different.

5.  The CAP service uniform between 1950 and 70's, was  the Air Force Blue/Silver Tan Uniform for all with these listed exceptions; they had wing patches, they used CAP cut outs, they had CAP historic buttons with triangle and three bladed prop., and they had a large red and blue patch, and later a large metal bar that said CAP the official Air Force Auxiliary    (to miss the patch you would need to be blind), in addition the eagle worn on the service and flight cap are distinctively CAP.

Whats my point; well these two Auxiliaries did and in one case does clearly separate there appearance from the parent organization. The movement away from the CAP cutouts, and the older CAP historic buttons, removing wing patches, and the highly visible patch over the right name plates may have been mistakes in hind sight.  As a result the AF modified for CAP is  easily confused with the standard Air Force uniform, even with the gray shoulder loops.   In short however I do believe this option should be retained for those who meet the standards established by the Air Force for our members to wear it.  However,  the Corporate Service Uniform as currently adjusted meets a pleasant cross between commercial aircrew uniforms and our military parent organization (because of the grade design and wearing of awards and decorations), then becoming a plausible adaption of a primary service uniform for our organization.  I would think that the Blank Leather Flight Jacket, and a black wind breaker, with gray loops would be suitable, along with the Blue Utility Uniform (BBDU), Blue Flight Suit, Polo Uniform (but I would recommend khaki gabardine  trousers).

BTW; I don't meet the weight standards, and for a while was a fuzzy.  I am passing 66 now, and have several medical issues that means these conditions may be semi permanent. However while in the Coast Guard Auxiliary none of this was ever a problem, and I shaved to be able to wear the CSU in my CAP activities. I also think a compromise could be reached on the CSU that would be similar to the Coast Guard Auxiliary standards for those with beards.

Well that is my two cents on this topic...

My regards to all,

William 'bc' Correll, LtCol CAP
Squadron 72, CAWg

[vmstan]

^ She had the CSU.  She wore it often!  She did not wear it to the Board meeting most likely to show a solidarity with the CAP-USAF side of the house, and not add any more crap to members conversations about the ditching of the CSU.

That is called politics.

I fully understand why she wouldn't be wearing a CSU right now. However in her official photo she does wear a AF uniform, although I'm almost 100% sure that photo is the same as her Vice Commander photo with an extra star photoshopped onto her shoulders.

[ZigZag911]

I know this is tantamount to heresy, but the first thing I have always thought of (since my cadet days!) when seeing AF style uniform was Ralph Cramden  (The Honeymooners, where the character drove a bus in NYC).

In the 80s I added another irreverent thought -- Cliff, the mailman on Cheers!

Without meaning any disrespect to the history or heritage  of the USAF, I have to say their uniforms are 4th out of the 5 military services...and until Coast Guard started dressing like us, AF was 5th out of 5.

Don't get me wrong, back when I still could I wore the AF style proudly...but as uniforms go, it's really dull looking.

[tdepp]

Bill:

Thanks for the history and perspective on CAP uniforms through the years.  I think I agree where you have come down on the raging uniform debate.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

And what is your proposed replacement, for all of the folks who can't wear AF-style?

Modified CSU.

Failing that, something more like the airlines wear, something that looks "aviation," which to me the grey does not.

http://www.airlineuniforms.net/

I just don't see why it has to be grey to be considered "distinctive."

And Bill, I second a lot of what you said in your post.

Call me a heretic, but I think getting the "U.S." cutouts was not necessarily a good thing, though I didn't cry about losing wing patches on the service dress (and they were a devil to get looking decent on the light blue shirt).

[tdepp]

I just don't see why it has to be grey to be considered "distinctive."

I go back and forth on the gray pants issue.  I think with the white aviator shirts and the polo shirt uniform, they look fine.  It compliments the gray loops.  But when you add the blue blazer and badge, it looks exactly the same as what the court security officers wear at federal courthouse entrances and scanners.  And that's not meant to be derogatory to them.  They look professional.  But that is now pretty much the professional security uniform norm.  The blazer uniform doesn't looks very "aeronautical" to me.  I can see how regular people might confuse us and security people with the blazer configuration.

I happen to like the CSU double breasted uniform for us over 10%ers.  It is a slightly different shade of blue than the AF blue and it is double breasted rather than single breasted.  It is military-ish, USAF-ish, but still different enough, IMHO.  I think it looks great.  But the USAF apparently isn't wild about it, so hence the dilemna. 

[AlphaSigOU]

I wouldn't have a problem with the double-breasted CSU, charcoal gray trousers (of a single specification!) and headgear, with gray shoulder marks and CAP cutouts and distinctive buttons. Dump the sleeve braid, but keep the silver chinstrap for senior member officers on the bus driver cap.

From what I can pick up in the tone of the current CAP-USAF commander in his comments to the NB agenda, he's just being the messenger from certain unnamed AF GOs (general officers) who don't want their 'part-time' auxiliary to besmirch their runway-model skinny image with 'fat and fuzzies'. OK, I can live with that; don't shoot him.

[FW]

The Blazer uniform is fine with me however, everytime I'm in a hotel for a meeting, someone always asks me about their room service....

It would be great if the uniform committee took these comments from CT and others to develop one service uniform  and, one field uniform for all the members.  I'm more concerned about a membership dedicated to CAP, our fine history and accomplishments than our relations with the CAP-USAF/CC.  And, if one uniform is what it takes, then we should make it a priority.

Just my $.02

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

To me, the blazer uniform looks most un-aviation.

It makes me think of a real estate agent...and I don't mean that in a derogatory way, since I wouldn't be living in a house if not for a very good real estate agent (who didn't wear a blazer).

[NjChap]

I have met Sea Cadet officers, Army Corps of Cadets officers, and State Guard officers, all of whom wear their parent service branch uniforms with slight modifications to insignia ie. cutouts. I'm not sure why our  organization both CAP and USAF have such a hard time with this. It seems like such a no brainer.

[tdepp]

I have met Sea Cadet officers, Army Corps of Cadets officers, and State Guard officers, all of whom wear their parent service branch uniforms with slight modifications to insignia ie. cutouts. I'm not sure why our  organization both CAP and USAF have such a hard time with this. It seems like such a no brainer.

I understand your point and even agree, in part.  But the USAF does have a problem so it is now our problem.  And we work (ok, volunteer) for them and it is their uniform.  Maybe we should just do a "Project CAP" ala "Project Runway," design a new CAP uniform with the help of some up and coming designers and have a CAP member (I nominate Eclipse), Gen. Courter, and a USAF General as the judges.  We'd get a new uni and some free press! 

[Eclipse]

Thank you! 

I accept this nomination as long as it comes with draconian powers!

[Short Field]

I have met Sea Cadet officers, Army Corps of Cadets officers, and State Guard officers, all of whom wear their parent service branch uniforms with slight modifications to insignia ie. cutouts.

The Army Corps of Cadets does not have a parent service.  It is a independent non-profit youth development organization and receives no more support from the United States Army than any other nationally organized youth group.  I am not sure about the Sea Cadets but believe they are similar.  They are not the same as CAP.

[FlyingTerp]

Sea Cadets are sponsored and supported by the Navy League of the United States and have formal partnerships with both the US Navy and Coast Guard.   http://www.seacadets.org/public/mission/

While Sea Cadet adult officers wear the Navy uniform, they must meet Navy height/weight and grooming requirements or wear an alternate uniform.  http://www.seacadets.org/public/officer/trifold-faq-officer-low.pdf

[Short Field]

That would be about the same as the CAP program being sponsored and supported by the Air Force Association.

[tdepp]

Sea Cadets are sponsored and supported by the Navy League of the United States and have formal partnerships with both the US Navy and Coast Guard.   http://www.seacadets.org/public/mission/

While Sea Cadet adult officers wear the Navy uniform, they must meet Navy height/weight and grooming requirements or wear an alternate uniform.  http://www.seacadets.org/public/officer/trifold-faq-officer-low.pdf

So, you think the Sea Cadets have a blue blazer, gray pants, white shirt security officer style uniform as well?   

Is Sea Cadet Talk full of postings about too many uniforms or not enough uniforms for the fat and fuzzy? 

[Eclipse]

The bright line difference between these other worthy organizations and CAP / CGAux is that they are not military auxiliaries, and have no operational mission or adult contingent - the focus of these organizations is the paramilitary training and development of the youth membership.

Further, and NIN will correct me if I am wrong, the ACA and the NSCC receive no appropriations from the Federal government, and though they may work closely with the Army & Navy, a "a partnership" is different from a "reporting relationship".

[vmstan]

I'm not sure what your point is? Those organizations have similar guidelines to ours: Navy uniforms for those who meet guidelines and alternates for the F&F -- and they are not even a military aux.

By that logic, you'd think we'd be just as strict or even more so, because of the fact we are a military aux.

[tdepp]

The Blazer uniform is fine with me however, everytime I'm in a hotel for a meeting, someone always asks me about their room service....

Thanks for taking my bags to Room 341.  Here's a $2 tip. 

[Spike]

The Blazer uniform is fine with me however, everytime I'm in a hotel for a meeting, someone always asks me about their room service....

Thanks for taking my bags to Room 341.  Here's a $2 tip. 

Are you kidding me?  $2.00 five years ago, most want $10.00 these days!

I support the National Commanders stance on whatever she says (I am a good member  )