Getting rid of the AF service uniform

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I don't think blaming anyone is productive, nor does it solve anything.

I joined in '93.  In that time I've seen CAP stuff that makes me shake my head in wonderment that supposedly intelligent, adult human beings could think of such nonsense.  I've also met, flown with and broken bread with a lot of good people who are good-to-go and get on with things.

When I joined I think CAP was still so shell-shocked by the imposition of berry boards that very, very few wanted to raise voices about anything to do with uniforms.

I hadn't known the AF offered a return to hard rank and blue epaulettes.  I remember my then-CC, who had a lot of contacts at National, including BG Anderson, telling me that the AF brass at Maxwell laid it down:

You will never get metal rank back.

Right now, since there is a moratorium on major changes, I think the best we can hope for is to petition for retention of the modified CSU.  That doesn't mean we'll get it, but it's worth a try.

[SARDOC]

The point is.....right now.....in the field there IS a class distinction between those in different uniform.  It is not really that big of a player, but it does exist.

Secondly.....The main issue IMHO is not about fairness to one group or the other.....it is about why we wear uniforms.  We wear them to show unit...both internally and externally.

Right now...today.....if you were to open a large exercise you will get 8 different uniforms.

BDUs
BBDUs
Green Flight Suits
Blue Flight Suits
Blue on Blue USAF
White on Blue CSU
White on Grey Corp Uniform
Polo on Grey Corp Uniform

And that is before you add the variations (long sleeve, short sleeve, tie/no tie, Jackets, service coats, sweaters, etc, etc, etc, ad nausium.

When our customer has to ask why one pilot is in blue flight suit and the other in green....the explanation is almost given in negative terms....."Oh, he can't wear the green flight suit because he does not meet USAF standards".

"He does not meet standards" is NOT something our customers want to hear.

I want to eliminate the two uniform systems...because we don't need two uniforms!  We need one...that is acceptable to both CAP and the USAF.

I like the idea of just using the USAF Coat, hat, etc, with Gray Pants and the gray epaulets.  The only thing we would need to change is to standardise the pants....and that should not really be that hard.

We go with the BBDU.....or maybe even switch to a different color....Proper makes a nice looking Gray one.
We could probably get everyone into the green flight suits if we removed the rank from the shoulders....if we are too married to keeping the rank on the shoulders then we need to switch to a blue flight suit and just live with the fact that there will be no way to find a surplus supply and have to pay full price.  An alternate to this is just make the BBDU/GBDU the standard flying uniform and go away from flight suits altogether.

Of course all of this is only for the Senior Members.  Cadets stay with USAF uniforms.

I absolutely agree...We wear a uniform for Identity purposes.  However, I think the blue flight suit looks better for what we do, Gray BDU's probably reveal more filth as stains might be harder to clean and hide (try wearing Dress Whites...it will drive you absolutely MAD) so I'd stay with the BLUE BDUS. The only Senior members I could see maybe wearing the AF style uniform would be the Cadet Programs folks...just my completely humble unqualified opinion

[Eclipse]

The only Senior members I could see maybe wearing the AF style uniform would be the Cadet Programs folks...just my completely humble unqualified opinion

Define a "Cadet Program Folk"...

[PHall]

The only Senior members I could see maybe wearing the AF style uniform would be the Cadet Programs folks...just my completely humble unqualified opinion

Define a "Cadet Program Folk"...

Those Senior Members whose primary duty in Civil Air Patrol is working in the Cadet Program.

[Eclipse]

Those Senior Members whose primary duty in Civil Air Patrol is working in the Cadet Program.

We don't have those, as least not by definition, and the last thing we'd need is a separate / different uniform for one
type of duty vs. another.

Assuming this was a good idea, which uniform would they wear at NESA?

How about a compromise?  Only those senior members and over 18 cadets required to take CPT should consider
themselves "cadet programs folks" and all other members wear the blue...

...

...oh, yeah...

If you are a member of CAP, and consider yourself not a "cadet program folk", you're doing it wrong...

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

If you are a member of CAP, and consider yourself not a "cadet program folk", you're doing it wrong...

Correctamundo!

[lordmonar]

Those Senior Members whose primary duty in Civil Air Patrol is working in the Cadet Program.

We don't have those, as least not by definition,

Then why do we have cadet squadrons?

and the last thing we'd need is a separate / different uniform for one
type of duty vs. another.

I agree.

I understand CyBorg's point.  CP people are the only ones who have a valid reason that they "must wear" USAF style uniforms....to be an example to their cadets.....but I don't really see that need.   If the eventual CAP corporate uniform is close enough in style and wear to the the USAF uniforms you can set the proper example just as well with out adding the confusion of multiple uniforms.

[Slim]

Those Senior Members whose primary duty in Civil Air Patrol is working in the Cadet Program.

We don't have those, as least not by definition,

Then why do we have cadet squadrons?

and the last thing we'd need is a separate / different uniform for one
type of duty vs. another.

I agree.

I understand CyBorg's point.  CP people are the only ones who have a valid reason that they "must wear" USAF style uniforms....to be an example to their cadets.....but I don't really see that need.   If the eventual CAP corporate uniform is close enough in style and wear to the the USAF uniforms you can set the proper example just as well with out adding the confusion of multiple uniforms.

It can be done, I do it myself.  CP master rating, DC of a cadet squadron, active in the encampment program/former commander, all in CAP distinctive uniforms.  It's not what you wear, it's how you wear it.  Lets face it, the CSU and BBDUs wear exactly the same as AF service dress and BDUs, just different colors.  I'd even include the post 2002 white/grey in that, but to a lesser extent.  If that combo had a formal jacket and hat (NOT a baseball cap), it might be better.  If you put in the time to make them look good (press, starch, use the Kiwi once in a while), you can provide the example that a well-kept, professional appearance is important.

Could I do the job better in AF style uniforms?  I don't think so, but only because there are a lot of "Members of size" in my AO who've busted their sixes to show that the color of a uniform doesn't matter.  If you don't take the time and effort to make your uniform look good, then the color/style of it isn't going to matter. 

[tdepp]

Those Senior Members whose primary duty in Civil Air Patrol is working in the Cadet Program.

We don't have those, as least not by definition,

Then why do we have cadet squadrons?

and the last thing we'd need is a separate / different uniform for one
type of duty vs. another.

I agree.

I understand CyBorg's point.  CP people are the only ones who have a valid reason that they "must wear" USAF style uniforms....to be an example to their cadets.....but I don't really see that need.   If the eventual CAP corporate uniform is close enough in style and wear to the the USAF uniforms you can set the proper example just as well with out adding the confusion of multiple uniforms.

It can be done, I do it myself.  CP master rating, DC of a cadet squadron, active in the encampment program/former commander, all in CAP distinctive uniforms.  It's not what you wear, it's how you wear it.  Lets face it, the CSU and BBDUs wear exactly the same as AF service dress and BDUs, just different colors.  I'd even include the post 2002 white/grey in that, but to a lesser extent.  If that combo had a formal jacket and hat (NOT a baseball cap), it might be better.  If you put in the time to make them look good (press, starch, use the Kiwi once in a while), you can provide the example that a well-kept, professional appearance is important.

Could I do the job better in AF style uniforms?  I don't think so, but only because there are a lot of "Members of size" in my AO who've busted their sixes to show that the color of a uniform doesn't matter.  If you don't take the time and effort to make your uniform look good, then the color/style of it isn't going to matter.

Great idea.  We need even more uniforms in CAP.  I'm going to suggest a nice charcoal double breasted with pinstripes for us LOs so we don't have to look the same as you non-lawyers.  And tasseled, ox blood colored loafers instead of those over the top black Windex shoes.  And no backpacks.  They're gauche.  A nice Gucci briefcase for our ES gear, which is mostly just a pre-printed summons and complaint anyway. 

[Slim]

Great idea.  We need even more uniforms in CAP.  I'm going to suggest a nice charcoal double breasted with pinstripes for us LOs so we don't have to look the same as you non-lawyers.  And tasseled, ox blood colored loafers instead of those over the top black Windex shoes.  And no backpacks.  They're gauche.  A nice Gucci briefcase for our ES gear, which is mostly just a pre-printed summons and complaint anyway. 

What are you talking about???  Where did I suggest any more uniforms?  The only uniforms I mentioned are uniforms currently in use.  The only exception to that was the desire to have a hat and a more formal coat for the white/grey combo when the CSU goes away.

My point is that a person doesn't necessarily need to wear the AF style uniforms to work with cadets.  I don't/can't wear them, and I seem to do just fine working with them.

To be more blunt, in my experience, a cadet will judge a senior not by what uniform they wear, but the way they wear it.  If you pull your AF style service dress that you outgrew 20 pounds ago out from under your bed and put it on, you're still going to earn the scorn of cadets everywhere.  If you put on your freshly laundered and pressed BBDUs and shined boots, most cadets will see a senior member who gives two craps about the way their uniform looks.

To be even more blunt, a dirtbag in an AF style uniform is still a dirtbag.

[wuzafuzz]

Great idea.  We need even more uniforms in CAP.  I'm going to suggest a nice charcoal double breasted with pinstripes for us LOs so we don't have to look the same as you non-lawyers.  And tasseled, ox blood colored loafers instead of those over the top black Windex shoes.  And no backpacks.  They're gauche.  A nice Gucci briefcase for our ES gear, which is mostly just a pre-printed summons and complaint anyway. 

What are you talking about???  Where did I suggest any more uniforms?  The only uniforms I mentioned are uniforms currently in use.  The only exception to that was the desire to have a hat and a more formal coat for the white/grey combo when the CSU goes away.

My point is that a person doesn't necessarily need to wear the AF style uniforms to work with cadets.  I don't/can't wear them, and I seem to do just fine working with them.

To be more blunt, in my experience, a cadet will judge a senior not by what uniform they wear, but the way they wear it.  If you pull your AF style service dress that you outgrew 20 pounds ago out from under your bed and put it on, you're still going to earn the scorn of cadets everywhere.  If you put on your freshly laundered and pressed BBDUs and shined boots, most cadets will see a senior member who gives two craps about the way their uniform looks.

To be even more blunt, a dirtbag in an AF style uniform is still a dirtbag.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[arajca]

To be even more blunt, a dirtbag in an AF style uniform is still a dirtbag.

Don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel. :angel:

+1

[tdepp]

To be even more blunt, a dirtbag in an AF style uniform is still a dirtbag.

Don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel. :angel:

+1

We already have a raging battle, at least here on CT, about the USAF-style uniform and who can wear it now v. the corporate uniforms.  So let's add another layer of who can and can't wear the USAF-style uniform based on one's duty position.  So, if one is the Deputy Commander for Cadets or the Aerospace Education Officer, USAF-style uni ok. But suddenly DCC or AEO is promoted to CC or Deputy Commander for Senior Members and then they can't wear the USAF-style uni?  Dang, I'm confused.  I'm guessing the Cadets would be too.   

I'm going to add a fourth mission to the CAP: emergency services, cadet training, aerospace education, and uniform debate. 

[heliodoc]

^^^

Just imagine..........if there was no uniform in CAP

What would be there to chirp about?

Wait a minute CAPers....Aerospace Education, Cadet Programs and Emergency Services

Now how would the arguments go about the fat and fuzzies, then?

Uniforms for positions in the squadrons?   What a joke...If I am in my flight suit talking AE to the group of seniors and cadets, I am somehow not to be in front of a group of cadets?

Truly a joke....most of the cadets in the squadron I am in respect the Seniors Members no matter what the uniform and are preety well interested in the instruction being given....

Some CAPers and CAPTAlkers are TOOOOO wound around uniforms and uniform wear

Like I said, if there was no uni in CAP what would be the areas most prone to chirp about?  Oh yeah, promotion for mission related skills...YAAAAAYYY!

[MSgt Van]

Lose the AF style uniforms, AND rank insignia...

[AlphaSigOU]

Lose the AF style uniforms, AND rank insignia...

That would be the simplest option, but the potential backlash resulting from such a monumental decision (either from Ma Blue or NHQ CAP) would probably cripple CAP. (I can just imagine: 'you can take my AF-style uniform and grade insignia off my cold, dead body!')

Me? I'll just 'salute and execute.'

[Eclipse]

Reactions -

USAF:     "Hmm..Really?  Whatever.  Are they still going to look for ELT's for free?"

Members:     "...Stamp, stamp, wail, gnash teeth...what were we talking about again?"

10 guys we don't need anyway quit, we all buy nice shadow boxes, and then get on with life.

[cnitas]

Reactions -

USAF:     "Hmm..Really?  Whatever.  Are they still going to look for ELT's for free?"

This is simply not accurate.  The USAF has repeatedly shown that they care ALOT about our uniforms.

[Eclipse]

Reactions -

USAF:     "Hmm..Really?  Whatever.  Are they still going to look for ELT's for free?"

This is simply not accurate.  The USAF has repeatedly shown that they care ALOT about our uniforms.

Yes, they care when we don't wear them correctly, cause confusion as to our status, or make things up as we go along, but I can't imagine why they would care if we simply gave up wearing any indicator of grade - talk about a lot of background noise dissolving overnight.

As much as I appreciate the ability to wear my oaks, I don't see any way they actually foster any of our missions, especially in the way we currently use them.

[tdepp]

Reactions -

USAF:     "Hmm..Really?  Whatever.  Are they still going to look for ELT's for free?"

This is simply not accurate.  The USAF has repeatedly shown that they care ALOT about our uniforms.

Yes, they care when we don't wear them correctly, cause confusion as to our status, or make things up as we go along, but I can't imagine why they would care if we simply gave up wearing any indicator of grade - talk about a lot of background noise dissolving overnight.

As much as I appreciate the ability to wear my oaks, I don't see any way they actually foster any of our missions, especially in the way we currently use them.

Eclipse, I like the cut of your jib.    You are obviously comfortable with yourself, a self actualized person as my boy Dr. Jung might say. I say this not as a joke but as a compliment.   

But alas, not everyone is at your level of enlightenment.  I do think the uniforms provide our members with pride and tradition.  But we also spend WAY too much time worried about what to wear. 

I'm still trying to figure out what difference ranks means about 95% of the time in CAP.  Wing Commanders are Colonels while they serve but they have actual authority as corporate officers.  Same with our one and two star generals as our top leaders.  For example, in my own squadron, we had a 1st Lt in charge as CC while we also had a Lt Col as a member who has been in CAP for over 40 years and has done all the levels and PD you can imagine.  But the 1st Lt was in charge. 

When you boil it all down, we're all auxiliarists.  Our rank is not quite like military rank in terms of responsibility, accountability, UCMJ, etc.  It can be an indication of achievement and or longevity.  It is our tradition.  It deserves our respect.  But like any organization, CAP depends on capable, dependable, and trained people.  And rank can indicate those attributes but not necessarily.

But take my captain's bars? I don't think so.  :angel: