The Hock Shop hit with lawsuit?

[Strick]

Since no one else said it I will.  Everything Vanguard sells (everything) is produced in the United States by American Citizens.  Before they become exclusive supplier of everything CAP, Vanguard produced over 50% of everthing the Bookstore and CAPMART sold. 


WRONG....ROTHCO UTILITY UNIFORM, My aero ed badge had a nice gold sticker on the back that said china on it.

[Eclipse]

WRONG....ROTHCO UTILITY UNIFORM, My aero ed badge had a nice gold sticker on the back that said china on it.

I believe the proper statement would be everything Vanguard produces - they are just a reseller of Rothco and similar products.
Not even Harley's are "all American" any more...

[desertengineer1]

I can go down the street to any one of the many taylor shops here and have almost all CAP embroidered or stamped uniform items made.  It cost a few percent more, but well worth the convenience.

Is CAP going to serve them with C&D letters and lawyer threats too?

WTF is wrong with the executive staff at Maxwell? 

This is going to make me order as much as I can from someone other than Vanguard.

[desertengineer1]

As to the lawsuit, does anyone know the nature of it? is NHQ suing for something, or is it just to have a court order the end of CAP item sales?

I'm thinking this might be one of those Cease and Desist letters, similar to web site hosts posting pics or news about celebreties and other companies.

But it does irk me a bit that our budget took major backslides this year and I can't even get basic attention for "mandatory" repeater installations, but CAP legal services seem to have an unlimited purse to threaten ma and pa shops.

[lordmonar]

But it does irk me a bit that our budget took major backslides this year and I can't even get basic attention for "mandatory" repeater installations, but CAP legal services seem to have an unlimited purse to threaten ma and pa shops.

The problem is right or wrong....they gave Vanguard an exclusive license.  CAP must protect that or Vanguard can sue CAP for breach of contract and Vanguard has a whole lot more money (not to mention the law) on its side.

It is cheaper to send a C&D letter and sue mom and pop then it is to sue (or defend against a suit) from Vanguard.

Not saying it is a pretty scene....not saying it was a screwed up thing to do.....but right now today....CAP's hands are tied.

[RADIOMAN015]

The only thing I can say is "The Hock Shop" offers much better customer service than "Vanguard"

The Hock normally will ship out what you've ordered the same day you ordered it.  :clap:  With my limited experience with Vanguard it will take them 4 days to process and maybe they will ship on the 5th day.

Perhaps I'm spoiled, but other mail order retailers also appear to be able to ship same day or next day whether it is apparel or radio equipment.  Got to wonder what the problem is at Vanguard

IF CAP is going to have any exclusive contract with anyone, make sure the customer service at least meets industry response standards.

BTW I think someone in Membership Services is responsible for monitoring comments & performing analysis on Vanguard's customer service.  I'm sure she would like to hear comments both positive & negative about Vanguards ops.

Now personally, whatever I can buy from Tom at "The Hock Shop" I'm going to buy. 
RM       

[BillB]

Ned


Let me correct your post.  During the 1970's the Bookstore DID make a profit. I was at an NEC meeting where the Bookstore made the announ=cement of the profit. The problem with the Bookstore and CAPMART was poor management, and a larger than needs staff. The same could be said for the CAP Supply Depot.

As to the money returened to CAP, where did most go?  To Hawk Mountain for towers and other facilities. So the benefit goes to a handful of cadets that attend, and not to CAP training.that helps Wings or Squadrons.

[Pylon]

Tom would need to have a significantly bigger operation to ever get an exclusive contract, and that's not even
accounting for his Pac-Rim suppliers and the inferior quality and incorrect colors on many of the insignia he is selling.

While I too have occasionally received insignia from Tom's shop that was not the quality embroidery I was expecting, you really can't claim that anything he sold had "incorrect colors".  Unlike the Armed Forces, CAP has never bothered to spec out cloth colors and other technical specifications for any of our insignia, nor do they use a certification process whereby the quality and accuracy of goods are checked and certified to be what CAP expected/wanted before they can be sold to the membership.  Since CAP doesn't say which shade of blue or grey (specifically, "medium grey" or "ultramarine blue" come in dozens of varieties, all "correct" unless further specified) is to be used, there is no incorrect.  Whatever happens to be the fabric on sale when the last manufacture made a round of that insignia is what's "correct".

[Ned]

Ned


Let me correct your post.  During the 1970's the Bookstore DID make a profit. I was at an NEC meeting where the Bookstore made the announ=cement of the profit. The problem with the Bookstore and CAPMART was poor management, and a larger than needs staff. The same could be said for the CAP Supply Depot.

I don't mean to imply that they "never, ever" made a profit.  They may well have done so 30 years ago as you say.  And management is always part of the situation, but they did try different managers and even re-organized the whole shebang on one or more occasions.  You may be right that they were just extremely unlucky and had several poor managers in a row.

But it is more likely that despite "average mangement" it cannot be reasonably cost-effective for us to maintain a stand alone shop given the inventory and distribution requirements in an organization of 60,000 or so members.

And yes, I spent several happy hours on multiple occasions wandering around the old Bookstore and CAPMART.  I saw a lot of inventory just sitting on shelves, some of which was clearly obsolete even at the time.  I saw a fair number of full time CAP employees just managing the warehouse, processing and shipping orders, etc.  It looked like a big operation to me at the time.

In hindsite, it also looked like a pretty expensive operation with all the inventory that they had to keep on hand.  Maybe too expensive.

The bottom line is that it lost a lot of money, our volunteer leaders looked at alternatives, sent a competitive contract out to bid, and carefully selected VG as our exclusive vendor.  And yes, there are customer service standards in the contract, and yes there is a designated NHQ employee who works as the VG liaison. 

Ned Lee
Former Bookstore/CAPMART/Supply Depot customer

[CS]

All the hoopla and scare tactics by the National Legal Officer will only end up costing the CAP member more money.  The name Civil Ail Patrol to my knowledge is not copyrighted nor is is it trademarked.  Since it was established by an act of congress the name belongs to the people of the United States not Vanguard under license and not some members of the corporation that decide they want to make some money with kick backs at the expense of the CAP member.  You'll note that I use CAP here, let someone send me a cease and desist if I send it out to thousands of people in a spam email.  As for a three bladed propeller I don't see any signature mark on that either!

The Hock Shop coexisted with the bookstore for many years and by virtue of the fact that it has been operating for over 40 years doesn't bode well in a court of law.  So let the arrogant leadership bleat...stay the course Tom you are in the right!

[nesagsar]

The Hock Shop coexisted with the bookstore for many years and by virtue of the fact that it has been operating for over 40 years doesn't bode well in a court of law.  So let the arrogant leadership bleat...stay the course Tom you are in the right!

In fact the Hock Shop cooexisted with Vanguard for several years before this. You cant tell me that they have just now discovered that they have competition.

[Eclipse]

All the hoopla and scare tactics by the National Legal Officer will only end up costing the CAP member more money.  The name Civil Ail Patrol to my knowledge is not copyrighted nor is is it trademarked.  Since it was established by an act of congress the name belongs to the people of the United States not Vanguard under license and not some members of the corporation that decide they want to make some money with kick backs at the expense of the CAP member.  You'll note that I use CAP here, let someone send me a cease and desist if I send it out to thousands of people in a spam email.  As for a three bladed propeller I don't see any signature mark on that either!

No matter how it was created, CAP is now a 501c(3) corporation with full rights to its name and insignia.  Try selling American Red Cross
T-Shirts and other items for personal profit and see how long it takes to get a C&D.

Your use of the terms as part of the normal course of business is different than making personal profit.  Try lighting up a visible web store
where the profits go to you personally and you'll get a letter as well.

[Ned]

The name Civil Ail Patrol to my knowledge is not copyrighted nor is is it trademarked.

You'd be wrong.  The public law that established CAP gives exclusive rights to the name to the CAP corporation.

My gentle suggestion would be to avoid further barracks-lawyering on the situation, especially since it is Tom facing litigation, and not you or me.  If he needs a lawyer, I'm sure he will get one.  IOW, it's always easy to give "legal advice" to someone else when your own wallet is not on the line.

You are certainly fee to disagree with our volunteer leaders on how best to get needed insignia into the hands of the membership at a reasonable price.

But that's a policy question, not a legal question.


Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer

[Pylon]

All the hoopla and scare tactics by the National Legal Officer will only end up costing the CAP member more money.  The name Civil Ail Patrol to my knowledge is not copyrighted nor is is it trademarked.  Since it was established by an act of congress the name belongs to the people of the United States not Vanguard under license and not some members of the corporation that decide they want to make some money with kick backs at the expense of the CAP member.  You'll note that I use CAP here, let someone send me a cease and desist if I send it out to thousands of people in a spam email.  As for a three bladed propeller I don't see any signature mark on that either!

The Hock Shop coexisted with the bookstore for many years and by virtue of the fact that it has been operating for over 40 years doesn't bode well in a court of law.  So let the arrogant leadership bleat...stay the course Tom you are in the right!

Another J.D. from the University of Google?  I thought we already experienced our fair share of Wikipedia Counsel in the "Don't Nuke Your Posts" thread.

[RiverAux]

If I recall correctly, at the end of CAPMART it was losing something like 150-200K a year, which was coming out of members pockets.  I wonder how that compares to the amount of profit Vanguard makes (which comes from member's pockets) after subtracting whatever money they're kicking back to CAP.  I suspect we would find that the overall cost to CAP members is the same, if not higher, than it was in the old days. 

But, without adequate reporting of such financial relationships by NHQ, there is no way to say.  For example, as far as  I can tell such income is not broken out separately in our annual financial reports.

[Pylon]

If I recall correctly, at the end of CAPMART it was losing something like 150-200K a year, which was coming out of members pockets.  I wonder how that compares to the amount of profit Vanguard makes (which comes from member's pockets) after subtracting whatever money they're kicking back to CAP.  I suspect we would find that the overall cost to CAP members is the same, if not higher, than it was in the old days. 

But, without adequate reporting of such financial relationships by NHQ, there is no way to say.  For example, as far as  I can tell such income is not broken out separately in our annual financial reports.

It may have to reported as Unrelated Business Income on the IRS-990.  When they file their latest taxes, we can take a look and see.  Unfortunately, it may also be lumped in with other income.  Hard to say now, but we can get a copy of the 990's with a quick call to NHQ (as a 501(c)(3), they're required by law to provide a copy of their tax returns on request).  The information could potentially be discernible.

[BillB]

In 1942, the Office of Civilian Defense, copyrighted all of their emblems including CAP's prop and triangle. The copywight reverted to CAP when the Coporation was established. It's questionable that Civil Air Patrol can copyright the letters CAP since it is in common use in the military (Combat Air Patrol), or is something worn on the head.

[Gunner C]

I doubt if whether CAP has properly protected it rights to "CAP" or other such stuff.  If this goes to court, that may be something that the Hock will demonstrate.  There's a great deal of law that says that copy rights and trade marks must be actively protected.  It would be interesting to see if the corporation had sufficiently exercised its rights over the years in order to demonstrate to the court that it had not given them up by default.  (I'm relying on my old communications law professor from 1975).  But if CAP, Inc hasn't been asserting its rights over its emblems, name, etc. the question may be moot.  With the history of multiple companies of producing CAP insignia, The Hock may be able to demonstrate that CAP, Inc has only recently exercised its rights and, therefore, has lost them in the process.  Just random thoughts.

[Spike]

Tom got away with what he did for YEARS, while others were forced to stop selling.  Does it matter if CAP bling or names are protected property?......NO.  The Corporation says "members, our ONLY supplier of uniform items from this point forward is Vanguard".  TOM did not abide by the rules, and as a member should be copied on his termination papers. 

He made money off of all of us for many years.  I seriously doubt he is in any financial hardship.  However, he may be sitting on CAP items that he can no longer sell and he will write those losses up on his taxes. 

Do I feel bad for the guy?  Not one bit. 

Is it wrong that Vanguard is CAP's sole supplier?  You bet it is!

Can I or anyone else change the rules?  No, but we can forward our displeasure of Vanguard being sole supplier.  We should have done that when it first came to pass.  Now IT IS TOO LATE.

PERIOD

[ascorbate]

Anyone know if the lawsuit against the Hock Shop was brought in state... or federal court?