ICL for Phaseout of CSU posted

[James Shaw]

Thanks for your comment, Jim.  Maybe next time Gen Courter will "confide" to the National Board before she makes her decisons of major impact to the membership.  It was obvious to the trainied eye, the CSU was DOA at the beginning of the November NEC meeting.  NO ONE was wearing it.  This type of "scripting" was supposed to be gone after HWSRN left the scene.  I don't doubt what she said to you however, past expierience has shown otherwise.  It is not appropriate for further discussion by me on this so, I'll just fume off.  I don't think this will change the "tone" of the NB meeting. 

The conversation I had was not a "confiding" type conversation. It was a Public Affairs Officer interview approach. This has been her method of working any type of issue for CAP. She does not discuss NB business with me of any sort. I dont ask and she doesnt offer. It would be inappropriate. My conversation with her was from a historical perspective and the reason changes are made. She did not discuss or tell me what changes she would support only her method of research and fact finding. Make no mistake she does not discuss NB business with someone who is not a member of the NB. In my capacity as the National Curator it is part of my job to ask about these types of things. If a PAO were to interview her about her management sytle I believe this would be part of that. I do not believe that she is circumventing anyone and never told me about any decisions just a method of approach to the subject. Lets make it clear there was no "confiding".

[Fuzzy]

Bottom line:  We're a pain in the ass to the AF.  They don't like us, no matter how much they smile, shake our hands, and tell us how swell we are.  We keep their aircrews from having to fly all night looking for an ELT that went off and (occasionally) find someone who's in trouble.  $40,000,000 is out of their pockets and they have all these fat guys crawling all over our bases.  Their senior NCOs go nuts and their commanders can't do anything about it except kvetch to the chain of command.  (Apparently, the E-9s finally got through).

I would say that the AF is more ignorant about us (especially younger Airmen) than anything else.

Nothing is taught about us in BMT to new Airmen and has not been for some time.  MTI's know about us mostly because of Mitchell cadets coming in at advanced grade and sometimes being selected for leadership positions.

I find more officers that know about us than Airmen/NCO's.

One thing that I have found to be a PITA is that too many LO's/State Directors I've known seem to care less about anything except cadets (warm bodies for Lackland), though it wasn't always that way.

I lay the blame, if any is to be laid, for that at the feet of our leadership, who over the past 20 years have actively tried to have it both ways: corporate ("AF can't tell us what to do!  We're volunteers!") and part-time auxiliary (so that we can still have the nice blue uniforms).

Thanks.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^Not sure what you mean by "thanks," but if you're taking what I said as a personal slur, please don't.

The problems in CAP's national leadership go way back to at least the early 1990s, and probably before.

The uniform nonsense is only symbolic of much deeper issues.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I have talked with General Courter about this CSU uniform issue. She has been very concerned with this from the beginning.

She has done ALOT of work about this to try and make it easier for members who invested their money to get a level of use out of it. She has taken a third party look at this and had some others look at the legal, financial, and other standpoints. She does not look at these things from strictly one point. She gets a tremendous amount of background information and supporting reasoning before she goes any further. She knows and realizes that her support and decisions have a huge impact on the members. She takes that approach with everything she does for CAP.

I haven't had the pleasure of meeting General Courter, so I will take what you say about her and her approach as a hopefully-good sign, better than the previous occupant of her command.

I am hoping that we will be able to retain the modified CSU and that General Courter will advocate for that at NB.

My suggestion for modified CSU?

All of General Courter's ICL modifications.

Retain the double-breasted blue service dress with grey CAP slides replacing metal epaulette rank.  Replace the silver sleeve braid with standard blue (if AF doesn't approve, no braid).  Refit with the AF-style buttons with CAP crest.

Discontinue the silver chinstrap on the service cap; if AF doesn't approve, discontinue service cap with that order of dress and stay with flight cap.

Replace blue AF belt with black web belt and CAP specific belt buckle (with the CAP crest).

That will look no more "confusing in low light or at a distance" than the AF-style blue uniform.  At some point, AF members have to be educated/educate themselves about their Auxiliary, what we look like, and that we are not trying to look just like them to "play Air Force."

And if some say that it looks "too much like the new Army orders of dress," a trip to the optometrist is suggested.

[kd8gua]

So, the basic CSU, minus outerwear, consists of the following:

Flight/Service Cap
White Aviator shirt with Gray 3 line nameplate and Gray CAP rank slides
Double breasted service jacket with gray slides and nameplate
Blue pants, belt, and silver buckle.
Black oxford style dress shoes, black socks.

So, in a nutshell, if a member meets grooming standards, but not weight, they have the choice of wearing their aviator shirt with blue pants or gray pants, but if they choose blue pants, they must wear a cap. I suppose we should authorize caps for the white/gray combination too, since I have a feeling people may forget what pants belong with the hat.

CAP no longer has uniforms, but rather a plethora of multiforms with various fashion accessories to suit your tastes for the meeting of the evening...

[Gunner C]

Gunner, that is some pretty harsh speak.  We don't take money away from the AF.  The budget money comes from the FED through the AF for fiduciary reasons.  We are placed in the AF budget for the same reason, to show where and how the money for CAP is going.

Fat and fuzzies crawling over "our Bases"??  I suppose you do not like CAP in general?

Or was your reply some sarcastic response, I can not tell?

I should have marked it as sarcasm.  It probably didn't make sense but it'd had enough at that point.  This hacks me off to no end.

[kd8gua]

I think from this point forward, as with wild ideas from previous Chiefs of Staff of the USAF, such as the McPeek stripes, every meeting we attend, be it squadron or national, we wear a completely new uniform. How about berry boards on a guyabera shirt? Double breasted US Navy jacket with Urban Assualt Camo BDU pants? Who cares anymore!? It's all acceptable from what I can see.

[Strick]

I am going to start pulling a Hawkeye Pierce 

[Eclipse]

The most simple, elegant, solution with the least impact to the field is to take the CSU jacket with the current changes (sans braid),
add it to the Aviator Whites, and move on.

Everyone I know who owns a CSU also owns the whites, so very little expense, and that solves the "under class" issue of the need for a paramilitary-style distinctive uniform.  There's no way anyone mistakes that combo for active USAF, while at the same time we all
move to a much more "uniform" appearance.

Problem solved, next issue.

[Spike]

^ Get rid of grey pants now.  Make the "modified CSU" the new distinctive uniform. 

It would only cost most members that can not or do not want to wear the AF-Style between $35.00 and $45.00 for a pair of blue air force pants.  If the AF will not allow the blue pants, then I have no idea what to do.

The new and improved CSU, may actually look good.  Can anyone take some pictures??

[JoeTomasone]

^ Get rid of grey pants now.  Make the "modified CSU" the new distinctive uniform. 

If we can get the AF to allow both fat AND fuzzy to wear it, I agree.   Solves a lot of problems:

1. Standard shade pants

2. Has a jacket and authorized cap/hat

3. If you become unfat and unfuzzy, swap the shirt and you're good to go.

4. Uses the same nameplate/epaulet slides/etc as the greys do now - so low cost to adopt (jacket notwithstanding).

5. Has uniform outerwear

6. Makes fat and fuzzies look more uniform with the AF-wearing crowd - i.e. more inclusionary, less "discriminatory" (however unintended that is).

Of course, the cynic in me says that it makes too much sense to happen.   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Everyone I know who owns a CSU also owns the whites

I have a partial CSU (sans jacket), but have never owned white/greys.

[Earhart1971]

Thanks for your comment, Jim.  Maybe next time Gen Courter will "confide" to the National Board before she makes her decisons of major impact to the membership.  It was obvious to the trainied eye, the CSU was DOA at the beginning of the November NEC meeting.  NO ONE was wearing it.  This type of "scripting" was supposed to be gone after HWSRN left the scene.  I don't doubt what she said to you however, past expierience has shown otherwise.  It is not appropriate for further discussion by me on this so, I'll just fume off.  I don't think this will change the "tone" of the NB meeting. 

There is stuff going on behind the scenes. Page 21 of the Winter Agenda has the "Army" Excuse for the Uniform Change.  I would like to hear the WHOLE STORY and have the Board come clean with what is exactly going on with CAP and the Air Force.  It goes beyond "Uniforms" and I am tired of the behind the scenes stuff.

[Fubar]

* We don't (have to) salute them, they do have to salute us

Heh, it took me a second to remember who's "voice" this statement was being written from.

[Fuzzy]

There was serious discussion about the army's service uniform in relation to the corporate uniform? I don't think its possible to confuse them.

[AlphaSigOU]

There was serious discussion about the army's service uniform in relation to the corporate uniform? I don't think its possible to confuse them.

Maninly because the CAP CSU uses the black Army windbreaker and all-weather coat, especially with hard rank. The Army blue dress trousers are a lighter blue shade than that of the Air Force and NCOs/officers wear braid on the trousers. With the incorporation of the shoulder marks, with the ICL, I personally don't see it as much of a problem.

[Cecil DP]

...
I could see the Army being a little annoyed by the similarities with their uniform,

For the record the Army Blue Dress Uniform has been around for a looooong time. But with the elimination of the green dress uniform it has become the everyday dress uniform, not just for formal occasions anymore. The only hint I've seen that the Army objects to the uniform is that someone on this forum displayed a picture of the Army uniform on the site and observed the similarity, along with a comment about how close the shirts matched.

Army should not have a say in our Corp Unmiform.  Check Page 21 of the Agenda. We are so WEAK!
b

"One reason possibly cited for the elimination of the CAP Corporate Uniform was its
somewhat similarity to the new Army Blue Service Dress Uniform. The Army has done

away with their green service dress uniform and has updated an older blue uniform style

for the modern era. Differences are many between the CAP Corporate Uniform and this

Army uniform, but as you can see below, some similarities do exist."  from the2010 Winter National Board agenda page 21

Reading this, whomever wrote this is saying "maybe the Army objected". The National Board doesn't know why the uniform was rejected, only that maybe, the Army didn't like it. The opinion that the uniform is too close to the U.S. Army uniform is ridiculous. The trousers are a completely different shade and the NCO/Officer stripe is not used by the Civil Air Patrol. Yes the shiry is the same, but is also worn by every airline pilot in the world.

[vmstan]

This idea that no branch or organization can use uniforms that look in anyway similar to another one is just so asinine. Heaven forbid there be any cost savings associated with higher purchasing power. It's more important that everyone look completely different! 

[Eclipse]

BDU's and flight suits would be evidence that other services can discern their members fairly easily.

The current DOD mandate to investigate a consolidated field uniform would also seem to negate that argument.

In my opinion any of the assertions about another agency having a problem, the USAF not liking it, or related, are either
conjecture, or an attempt to backfill a reason into a space which is likely as simple as one or a few CAP commanders
feeling the CSU is legacy from HWSRN and wanted it gone.

I'd be just as happy with that explanation as anything else.  That's part of the paramilitary game, and eliminates all
the rumors and back-room conspiracy talk.  People in command positions are allowed to make unpopular, difficult decisions,
so be it.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Eclipse and Cecil both make good points.

I think there is more than a grain of truth to the statement that the current CAP leadership is anxious (not without reason) to try and erase all vestiges of the General of the U.S. Ranger Corps.  How they're going about it is another matter.  Biting the shins of the membership who shelled out for the CSU and liked it is not good.  General Courter seems to be offering a good "middle way" that I hope becomes permanent.

My ex-brother-in-law had the Army blues (the service dress jacket actually looked black to me) back when I was a teenager in the early '80s.  He got them because at that time officers were required to (I think) and he was preparing to go the Warrant Officer route.  I've seen quite a few other National Guard personnel wearing them, not to mention the Honor Guard at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.  There's no way I would get the CSU confused with that.

If anything, with the service coat it reminds me of a cross between a Russian Navy officer (cut) and Russian Air Force officer (colour).

Without the service coat it reminds me of an airline pilot or a TSA inspector's former uniform.

There is absolutely no way (within reason) that a uniform can be chosen that doesn't look, to some degree, like another service/organisation's uniform (for the grey/white hardliners: check out some private security firms who wear a white shirt and grey pants).