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Author Topic: flight line  (Read 8378 times)
capcadet101
Recruit

Posts: 28

missouri wing civil air patrol
« on: November 04, 2006, 06:04:09 PM »

how many squadrons are out there that are flight line quilified.
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Cadet Ryan W. DiGiuseppi
Lake St. Louis Missouri 63367
ges,set, certified
JC004
[Insert Cool Title Here]
Global Moderator

Posts: 4,516

« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2006, 06:47:48 PM »

 ???  Huh?  Do you mean the Flight Line Marshaller ES qualification?
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DeputyDog
Forum Regular

Posts: 196

« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2006, 06:50:14 PM »

???  Huh?  Do you mean the Flight Line Marshaller ES qualification?
That is what he means. His squadron specializes as Flight Line Marshallers.
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JC004
[Insert Cool Title Here]
Global Moderator

Posts: 4,516

« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2006, 06:58:07 PM »

That is what he means. His squadron specializes as Flight Line Marshallers.

We don't have a lot of FLM-qualified people.  They are mostly spread out, a couple per unit, most of them being in the units with aircraft, obviously. 
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ande.boyer
Member

Posts: 81

« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2006, 11:44:30 PM »

???  Huh?  Do you mean the Flight Line Marshaller ES qualification?
That is what he means. His squadron specializes as Flight Line Marshallers.

I don't think I've ever heard ofa  squadron "specializing" in flight line.. :-|
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DeputyDog
Forum Regular

Posts: 196

« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2006, 12:05:10 AM »

???  Huh?  Do you mean the Flight Line Marshaller ES qualification?
That is what he means. His squadron specializes as Flight Line Marshallers.

I don't think I've ever heard ofa  squadron "specializing" in flight line.. :-|

That is why his squadron calls themselves the "Ramp Rats". Interesting squadron patch they have by the way.
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CLB
Member

Posts: 66

« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2006, 12:13:00 AM »

I'm a certified NATA line tech, but I don't want to do it for CAP.  I once started a SQTR for it, but let it slide.   

However, usually end up doing it to some capacity anyways at a SAREX. 

45+ hours a week of pulling pins, checking rudder locks and making sure 5 noobs don't fark something up on a F-18, HH-60 or $45m Gulfstream is enough for me. 
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Capt Christopher Bishop
Coastal Charleston Composite Squadron
capcadet101
Recruit

Posts: 28

missouri wing civil air patrol
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2006, 03:43:55 PM »

deputy dog its capcadet101 i got your message about the squadron patch and i am glad that you like it if you would send me a e-mail it would be apperacited i would like to find out who you you are. P.S. and that is what i mean't w/ the flight line.
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Cadet Ryan W. DiGiuseppi
Lake St. Louis Missouri 63367
ges,set, certified
Chris Jacobs
Seasoned Member

Posts: 302

« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2006, 04:05:33 PM »

here in Oregon we are kinda doing the same thing.  Each squadron with a good amount of pilots is specializing in a certain mission.  One squadron is specializing in ELT's, another is SDIS, another is going to mainly be for tow pilots.  But they all will be able to do all of the missions.  I kinda like the idea of having squadrons specialize.
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C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron
capcadet101
Recruit

Posts: 28

missouri wing civil air patrol
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2006, 04:22:33 PM »

See you might only specilize in one thing like our main specialty is flight line but we also do ground team, in mo wing we like the only squadron in mo that is all flight line able.
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Cadet Ryan W. DiGiuseppi
Lake St. Louis Missouri 63367
ges,set, certified
DNall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,721

« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2006, 08:21:47 PM »

how critical is flight line anyway?
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capcadet101
Recruit

Posts: 28

missouri wing civil air patrol
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2006, 09:08:20 PM »

being a on the flight line is great but you have a great deal of responsibility you have to know what you are doing and how to do it correctly. you have a lot of stress out there. you are in-controle of the civil air patrols planes and also civilian aircraft. but it is a blast to be out on the flight line. we make sure that the aircrafts wings dont hit each other
« Last Edit: November 05, 2006, 09:20:23 PM by capcadet101 » Logged
Cadet Ryan W. DiGiuseppi
Lake St. Louis Missouri 63367
ges,set, certified
Chris Jacobs
Seasoned Member

Posts: 302

« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2006, 09:38:49 PM »

I think he was asking how important is it to have flight line any ways.  I think in big operations it might be necessary, but in general it is not really that important.  Most pilots can pull up to a parking spot on the GA ramp by them selves.
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C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron
capcadet101
Recruit

Posts: 28

missouri wing civil air patrol
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2006, 09:44:29 PM »

YOUR RIGHT BUT THEY LIKE US BEING OUT THERE THEY DONT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT HITTING ANYTHING. I THINK THEY ARE MORE RELAXED ON THE FLIGHT LINE THEY DONT WORRIE
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Cadet Ryan W. DiGiuseppi
Lake St. Louis Missouri 63367
ges,set, certified
MIKE
Super Moderator

Posts: 5,459
Unit: LANTAREA

« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2006, 09:48:05 PM »

Mind the Caps Lock there Cadet DiGiuseppi.
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Mike Johnston
capcadet101
Recruit

Posts: 28

missouri wing civil air patrol
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2006, 09:49:34 PM »

Yes sir, thank you
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Cadet Ryan W. DiGiuseppi
Lake St. Louis Missouri 63367
ges,set, certified
RiverAux
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,974

« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2006, 12:33:03 AM »

I think this is a dying specialty.  At most larger airports you aren't allowed on the ramp to do it while on the smaller airports it isn't really necessary.  I am continually suprised that the AF lawyers haven't put the kaibosh on this activity, at least for cadets, as being a safety hazard. 
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,512
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2006, 12:53:58 AM »

I think this is a dying specialty.  At most larger airports you aren't allowed on the ramp to do it while on the smaller airports it isn't really necessary.  I am continually suprised that the AF lawyers haven't put the kaibosh on this activity, at least for cadets, as being a safety hazard. 

And how many cadets have you seen get injured while working flight line, outside of sunburn?

That was the very first ES job I learned as a cadet, and the skill carried over into my time in the Navy.

When properly supervised, properly trained cadets can do the job just as well as adult members. In fact, most of the cadets I have worked with and trained over the years have done very well, and have been much less inclined to be complacent, unlike some adult members.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,311

« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2006, 01:25:41 AM »

The problem with CAP running a flight line is most pilots (in my experience) are not used to have someone standing in front of the people slicer giving them directions. Also, the use of CAP members as flight line personnel has been hit or miss (no pun intended) - they're not present at all missions, training or real.
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,512
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2006, 01:46:27 AM »

The problem with CAP running a flight line is most pilots (in my experience) are not used to have someone standing in front of the people slicer giving them directions. Also, the use of CAP members as flight line personnel has been hit or miss (no pun intended) - they're not present at all missions, training or real.

With that I agree 100%. It's part of the prerequisite Scanner training, but it seem to get glossed over. We have  this, and this (draft) available on the National site.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
CLB
Member

Posts: 66

« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2006, 02:04:57 AM »

Doing this for a living, and actually using the same marshalling techniques the Air Force uses, 9 out of 10 times the pilot isn't even looking at you or following your direction anyway. 

This came to a head when we had a collision once because the pilot decided to ignore the lineman's signals and go where HE wanted to go.  Tore up a brand new paint job on his aircraft.  Needless to say, he's come in slow and done exactly what we tell him to do since. 

BUT, that 10th time that the pilot actually does what you tell him/her to do...I'm always greeted with a handshake and a "What branch were you in?" 
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Capt Christopher Bishop
Coastal Charleston Composite Squadron
DNall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,721

« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2006, 05:30:22 AM »

My experience is it's more of a safety/liability concern than it's worth most of the time.

What I've seen lines up with what's been said. If it's a larger field w/ lots of moving objects then they tend to provide professional marshallers. If it's pretty calm then you mostly don't need them. The only time you tend to need any help is on a small or isolated part of a field where you  have lots of CAP planes moving around at once in an otherwise sparse movement area & the FBO isn't helping out.

Wing walking is one thing, but I tend to think the flightline gets over played to these poor kids. We build up their expectations, which you could see in the tone & pride of this kid, and then we dash them in the real world.

I've very rarely ever seen flightline ops run by CAP, and that was almost always trying to find something to do with a bunch of kids to keep them out of the way when they didn't need any more GTMs. I've shutdown flightline ops at a graded Sarex when I felt it was more trouble than it was worth & the officers doing the grading were perfectly fine with that.

I don't have a problem with flightline existing, but I can't for the life of me see the point of specializing a Sq in what's got to be just about the least critical specialty on a 101. It'd be a lot more effective to get them doing MSA & MRO. Let them get in there & really make an impact.
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Chris Jacobs
Seasoned Member

Posts: 302

« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2006, 10:39:00 AM »

I can only think of two times in the past 6 years of me being in CAP where i have actually felt like i was needed on the flight line.  first one was just as i was getting started in my ES career.  It was a large wing wide exercise, and we had every single air plane in the wing on one small ramp.  The other time was while at blue beret.  In the past few SAREX that we have had the flight line guys are not really there to marshal the airplanes but to assist the pilots with fueling and pushing the airplane around.  They also make sure that pilots do radio checks before they leave.  I think we need to keep the specialty, but i don't see why a squadron would specialize in it.
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C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron
Psicorp
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 605

« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2006, 12:21:36 PM »

I can only think of two times in the past 6 years of me being in CAP where i have actually felt like i was needed on the flight line.  first one was just as i was getting started in my ES career.  It was a large wing wide exercise, and we had every single air plane in the wing on one small ramp.  The other time was while at blue beret.  In the past few SAREX that we have had the flight line guys are not really there to marshal the airplanes but to assist the pilots with fueling and pushing the airplane around.  They also make sure that pilots do radio checks before they leave.  I think we need to keep the specialty, but i don't see why a squadron would specialize in it.

It's something, with proper training, that cadets can do.   You're absolutely right...there's no need for a squadron to specialize in it, but getting the cadets trained in it would be a good activity and having that qualification in your/their back pocket is never a bad thing.

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Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257
DNall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,721

« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2006, 01:24:18 PM »

That's fine, but you'd think you can tweak down teh skill requirements to reality in that case wouldn't ya? Considering what AvGas cost it's pretty much full service everywhere I've been. And, the only time I ever push a plane around is in/out of a hanger. On every mission I've been to, which is a lot, CAP pretty much took over a low traffic end of an airport, usually near the CAP facility. The fueling operations took place over by the FBO or at least a little further down the ramp & then they were moved into the CAP parking area. I've seen it done right on the line before, but that was for smaller operations when nothing else was moving.

It's not a totally useless specialty, but I don't think it should be one of the first thing you introduce cadets to, NOR should it be made out to be more than it is.
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RiverAux
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,974

« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2006, 06:52:40 PM »

I haven't seen any injured, but the case can easily be made that flightline personnel are not needed.  Most of the time, most pilots manage to park their planes without this assistance.  Unless you're in a situation where an onslaught of CAP planes for a mission has totally overwhelmed the airport and finding parking is difficult, then having anybody, cadets or senior, out there isn't really helping. 

Now, if working on a flightline a decent educational experience for the cadets?  Sure.  But as far as missions go, having them be a qualified ground team is much more beneficial overall. 

Frankly, I think the flightline specialty is really only used when they don't have any better use for cadets. 
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capcadet101
Recruit

Posts: 28

missouri wing civil air patrol
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2006, 07:15:26 PM »

sardragon my squadron has had no one injured on the flight line outside of a sunburn.
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Cadet Ryan W. DiGiuseppi
Lake St. Louis Missouri 63367
ges,set, certified
capcadet101
Recruit

Posts: 28

missouri wing civil air patrol
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2006, 07:30:56 PM »

RIVERAUX WE ALSO SPECILALIZE ONGROUND TEAM AND MRO WE HAVE A GROUND TEAM ALSO WE DONT JUST DO ONE THING LIKE A LOT OF SQUADRONS WE DO A BUNCH.
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Cadet Ryan W. DiGiuseppi
Lake St. Louis Missouri 63367
ges,set, certified
fyrfitrmedic
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 555

« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2006, 08:24:03 PM »

RIVERAUX WE ALSO SPECILALIZE ONGROUND TEAM AND MRO WE HAVE A GROUND TEAM ALSO WE DONT JUST DO ONE THING LIKE A LOT OF SQUADRONS WE DO A BUNCH.

but the real question is - can you use the caps-lock key?  ;D
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MAJ Tony Rowley CAP
Lansdowne PA USA
"The passion of rescue reveals the highest dynamic of the human soul." -- Kurt Hahn
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,512
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2006, 10:54:42 PM »

Well, we've established that he knows where it is, and that it works, by looking at his consecutive posts. The problem seems related to the timing of its usage!  ;)
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
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