Dovetail from Marketplace RE: MT 2000 VHF Radio

[kd8gua]

Since the Marketplace is hardly the place to discuss in detail what is FOUO and what is not, I figure we can continue that aspect over here.

A lot of good points have been made, and it has raised a lot of questions too. For example, someone buys the previously mentioned MT 2000, and wants to put the CAP narrowband freqs in it, they seem to have a few options. Either they can turn it in to CAP who will program it on their behalf (which I wouldn't be doing, since I'd be using my MT 2000 for both ham and CAP), or they can petition some level of Comm. office (I believe Wing or higher?) to give them a codeplug to install on said radio, or the user can ask for the actual frequencies through some petition process. Which of these is most common? How does a member petition for frequency information? Do they have to be a Comm. officer at the Squadron level?

And I guess as a side question, since encryption is starting to be used more, member-owned radios, particularly Motorola, who use a Key Variable Loader, have the ability to be user-programmed for encryption, provided they have the proper hardware. Is this a separate petition for the encryption information or is that included in the "blanket" petition for frequency info?

Others with other questions/thoughts feel free to add!

[Eclipse]

Frequencies are freely available to members, just ask.  If you know how to program your radio, have at, though I would not expect a DC to lend out code plugs, assuming they have them for your particular radio.

If anyone tells you that frequencies are prohibited for members to know, they are misinformed and you just need to move up the chain.
This should not be difficult.  You cannot, however, release the frequencies to a third-party, non-member, unless that person agrees to sign the NDA.

As to encryption, it can only be used on CAP frequencies with authorization and coordination.  See 100-1, and the ICL published in Aug 09 for details.

[CommGeek]

I'm pretty confident that national is not going to release crypto keys to the general members to program into personal radios.  First off, not all of our comms will be crypto, only and handfull of personell actively engaged in a 'secure' mission will have the keys loaded in their radio. Not all corporate radio gear is crypto capable!  When the mission is over the keys will  be deleted. If the key is made 'public' to all CAP members then it defeats the purpose of going crypto. They keys will change every operation, or on a scheduled basis.  It only takes the key to leak once, and comms is compromised. CAP should start to use OTAR to reket their radios...  In most Police dept's  Only narcotics or SWAT may be crypto, to keep it secure only a select few radio techs will have they keys.   Also remember P25 is NOT Crypto by its self!

[JoeTomasone]

Frequencies are freely available to members, just ask.

To be given the NB frequencies I had to have a "need to know" (at the time, Group DC and member of the "re-programming team") and had to sign an NDA that spelled out National's terms for releasing the frequencies.   This was part of becoming what was termed to be a "trusted agent".   

In FLWG, at least, they aren't up for grabs to all who ask.

[Slim]

Frequencies are freely available to members, just ask.  If you know how to program your radio, have at, though I would not expect a DC to lend out code plugs, assuming they have them for your particular radio.

A code plug isn't something physical that can be handed out.  A code plug is the chip or ROM inside the radio's microprocessor that stores all of the data on the radio.  Things like model and serial numbers, flash codes, frequency and channel data.  When you ask for a code plug, they're not going to hand you something that you can physically plug into your radio.  When we talk about code plugs in this sense, it's actually a printed report of everything that's programmed into the radio using the software.

[Eclipse]

Shows what I know about radios - I thought he was talking about programming cables / software.

[MikeD]

Slight threadjack, is there a good source on what (affordable) radios are NB compliant?  I found a couple old threads that weren't as helpful as hoped. 

[Eclipse]

https://ntc.cap.af.mil/

This is the authority.

[SarDragon]

Frequencies are freely available to members, just ask.  If you know how to program your radio, have at, though I would not expect a DC to lend out code plugs, assuming they have them for your particular radio.

A code plug isn't something physical that can be handed out.  A code plug is the chip or ROM inside the radio's microprocessor that stores all of the data on the radio.  Things like model and serial numbers, flash codes, frequency and channel data.  When you ask for a code plug, they're not going to hand you something that you can physically plug into your radio.  When we talk about code plugs in this sense, it's actually a printed report of everything that's programmed into the radio using the software.

We refer to the data set used to program the radio as the code plug. In the case of all of the CAP radios I have programmed, it's just a data file, used by the configuration program. For some military radios, it's a physical transfer device that holds the data, and the radio can download it directly without the use of an outside computer. The newer crypto keyers work the same way, all electronic.

[Slim]

Slight threadjack, is there a good source on what (affordable) radios are NB compliant?  I found a couple old threads that weren't as helpful as hoped.

Best bet is to look at the list on the NTC website, then start looking on ebay, ham swaps, etc.

My personal preference and recommendation is Motorola.  Look for the MT-2000 (either 48 or 160 channels), XTS-3000 (if you're lucky, you might find one flashed for P-25), and the Astro Saber (also available with P-25 if it's flashed right).  The HT-1000 is a good bet if you can find one that is NB compliant (most CN and all DN models), but only has 16 channels available.  The only real downside to Motorola gear is that programming is a pain.  The cables and hardware are readily available, but the software isn't.  Software from Motorola (if you can get them to approve an end-user for purchase) is horribly expensive, and requires a very draconian licensing agreement.  You'd need to find a shop that can do it for a fee, and is willing to jump through the hoops to get the data released. 

Don't rule out the possibility of any other manufacturers either.  Icom, Kenwood, and Yeasu/Vertex also have some very good equipment out there.  It's also generally cheaper than Motorola, and software is cheaper/easier to get.  If you keep your eyes on ebay, you can sometimes find EFJ 5300 mobiles and 5100 portables at decent prices.  If you luck onto one, programming through your wing won't be an issue at all.  Just make sure you verify that they are VHF before you bid/buy.

[CAP.is.1337]

Just an FYI, but all HT1000's are narrowband compliant. However, only the DN models are able to use 12.5khz spaced frequencies.

A little cheat for Astro portables, (Astro Saber and XTS3000) is that it is flashed for P25 if the flashcode starts with a 1 or 5. Also, only the 1MEG version can be flashed for P25. Just remember that when buying one. Also, if you have a FPP-flashed XTS2500 or XTS5000, be sure you won't loose that capability if you have it programmed via CPS.

Also, beware when buying a EFJ5100 portable that whoever will be programing it has the proper software for that version of the radio. Different versions can have wildly varying hardware.

[SABRE17]

does the DN model number requirement also go for the MT-2000's, I've noticed the mt-2000's are almost the same at the HT-1000, just bigger and with more channels. in other words what is the correct model number for the mt-2000's to be CAP compliant?

[Slim]

does the DN model number requirement also go for the MT-2000's, I've noticed the mt-2000's are almost the same at the HT-1000, just bigger and with more channels. in other words what is the correct model number for the mt-2000's to be CAP compliant?

To my knowledge, there is no difference in model numbers for the MT-2000.  I have one in service with no issues, and two other members in my unit also have them with no problems.

I've not tried my HT-1000 (an AN model) on any of the splinter frequencies to know if there are issues with it or not.  I have it available, but don't really use it all that much.  It's primarily been a spare/back-up/loaner radio.  In fact, I haven't even reprogrammed it for the new channel plan to try it out.

[CAP.is.1337]

One of the other cadets in my squadron has a BN revision HT1000 which I've already reprogrammed for the new channel plan, so it shouldn't be an issue. The hardest thing about them is deciding which repeaters to include/omit. I actually prefer the older HT1000's because I personally think the Florida-built ones sound better than the later Malaysian white-label radios.