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Author Topic: Who are, in your opinion, the enemies of CAP?  (Read 10149 times)
DNall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,721

« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2006, 11:05:17 PM »

I'm working on it, conspiracy takes time. I wouldn't want congress to design a plan & implement it from on high. I think that could be a disaster. What I'd like to see is an independent cmte from AF & CAP come together, be handed some out-of-the-box ideas to consider, told to ignore current legal restrictions, and asked to develop a hypothetical vision for the future, then submit it as a JOINT recommendation including what legal changes are needed to make it happen. Now, that can happen, and it can happen fast, but it has to be done very delicately. The process isn't that complicated, but the steps have to be just right.
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ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,979

« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2006, 01:01:45 AM »

I believe it was that great American philosopher Pogo (a comic strip character, creation I think of a fellow named Walt Kelly) who said "We have met the enemy and they is Us!"

I've been around long enough to remember when we had no CAP national commander, it was an Air Force 1 or 2 star....the senior CAP person was "Chairman of the National Board".....needless to say, there was a very different working relationship between CAP & CAP-USAF!

Do we need to return to that? Perhaps not....but some objective approval of senior leadership appointments (by the BOG, or CAP-USAF, SOMEBODY) would be a bug start in the right direction.

Right now there are a lot of senior folks in it for the 'glory'...the rank, the power, and what they perceive as the prestige.

What we need is leaders who are in CAP for others, not themselves.....whose first concerns are always the mission and the members.
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DNall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,721

« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2006, 01:23:30 AM »

What we need is leaders who are in CAP for others, not themselves.....whose first concerns are always the mission and the members.
I agree. What I see as the systemic problem is the process of getting there. If you don't have a merit based promotion system, the leadership posts aren't done on merit (not just WG & up, but everything), and there's so little accountability.... where are we creating a dynamic that causes the cream to naturally rise? There's politics in the military too, at all levels & especially at the top, but the underlying foundation ensures it's kept pretty well in check. On the other hand you can look at a corporate model with a profit motive (even non-profits have a profit motive) & stake holders to answer to, that also naturally seeks out the best. I think we're just so informal about it & confused as to who we are that we take the worst of both systems & get real scared of anything that might hold anyone back in favor of better options.
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Johnny Yuma
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 610

« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2006, 02:48:48 AM »

What's with all the NOTF bashing? Most of what he posts about CAP is positive press regarding local unit human interest stories and operational missions. Whatever comes over the news wires marked CAP he gets.

Yeah, there's some negative CAP press there as well. He does editorialize over it too much at times but all in all is accurate. Everyone thought the Glasgow letter was BS until the Board agenda was posted. Gee, musta been coincidence.

do you really think one guy reposting a lot of AP newswire stuff is really doing more damage than the current leadership is????
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"And Saint Attila raised the Holy Hand Grenade up on high saying, "Oh Lord, Bless us this Holy Hand Grenade, and with it smash our enemies to tiny bits. And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs, and stoats, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and lima bean-"
 
" Skip a bit, brother."
 
"And then the Lord spake, saying: "First, shalt thou take out the holy pin. Then shalt thou count to three. No more, no less. "Three" shall be the number of the counting, and the number of the counting shall be three. "Four" shalt thou not count, and neither count thou two, execpting that thou then goest on to three. Five is RIGHT OUT. Once the number three, being the third number be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade to-wards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuffit. Amen."

Armaments Chapter One, verses nine through twenty-seven:
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,630

« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2006, 03:26:03 AM »

What's with all the NOTF bashing? Most of what he posts about CAP is positive press regarding local unit human interest stories and operational missions. Whatever comes over the news wires marked CAP he gets.

Yeah, there's some negative CAP press there as well. He does editorialize over it too much at times but all in all is accurate. Everyone thought the Glasgow letter was BS until the Board agenda was posted. Gee, musta been coincidence.

do you really think one guy reposting a lot of AP newswire stuff is really doing more damage than the current leadership is????

What he posts is plagiarized news snips from various press agencies.....all his original work is all ANTI CAP with out any substantiation.  He has on several occasions said some bad things but refused to provide any names so he could "protect his sources".

As far as getting involved in the current political roll....I just don't go there.  It does not effect me and I don't care.

If you do care....you need to get on your wing/regional staff and start making a difference.  Because you cannot affect any change griping on the boards.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Major_Chuck
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 557

« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2006, 08:10:56 AM »

The owner of NOTF (Skip Munger I believe) was a CAP member way back when Tony Pineda was running amok over Florida Wing.  The two personalities clashed and Munger was forced out.  Complaints he made to NHQ were dismissed and he began his crusade of slamming CAP Leadership at all levels through his email digest News of the Force.  He originially posted NOTF to the very first CAP Talk list server (Nothing compared to today's CAPTalk).  He will put out the copied news clips and articles about what the average common CAP'er is doing but if you watch his 'editorials' they all focus on CAP Leadership and Tony Pineda.   Munger at one point boasted about having some litigation in court against CAP and Pineda but I believe he lost and that is why he continues his anti-CAP tirade.
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Chuck Cranford
SGT, TNCO VA OCS
Virginia Army National Guard
Major_Chuck
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 557

« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2006, 08:13:00 AM »

What's with all the NOTF bashing? Most of what he posts about CAP is positive press regarding local unit human interest stories and operational missions. Whatever comes over the news wires marked CAP he gets.

Yeah, there's some negative CAP press there as well. He does editorialize over it too much at times but all in all is accurate. Everyone thought the Glasgow letter was BS until the Board agenda was posted. Gee, musta been coincidence.

do you really think one guy reposting a lot of AP newswire stuff is really doing more damage than the current leadership is????

What he posts is plagiarized news snips from various press agencies.....all his original work is all ANTI CAP with out any substantiation.  He has on several occasions said some bad things but refused to provide any names so he could "protect his sources".

As far as getting involved in the current political roll....I just don't go there.  It does not effect me and I don't care.

If you do care....you need to get on your wing/regional staff and start making a difference.  Because you cannot affect any change griping on the boards.

I have found if you want to make the strongest impact in CAP seek service on your Wing staffs, even if it is simply to assist in various projects.  You'll interact with more of your wing and get to see some of the bigger picture.
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Chuck Cranford
SGT, TNCO VA OCS
Virginia Army National Guard
ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,979

« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2006, 01:40:37 PM »

What we need is leaders who are in CAP for others, not themselves.....whose first concerns are always the mission and the members.
I agree. What I see as the systemic problem is the process of getting there. If you don't have a merit based promotion system, the leadership posts aren't done on merit (not just WG & up, but everything), and there's so little accountability.... where are we creating a dynamic that causes the cream to naturally rise? There's politics in the military too, at all levels & especially at the top, but the underlying foundation ensures it's kept pretty well in check. On the other hand you can look at a corporate model with a profit motive (even non-profits have a profit motive) & stake holders to answer to, that also naturally seeks out the best. I think we're just so informal about it & confused as to who we are that we take the worst of both systems & get real scared of anything that might hold anyone back in favor of better options.

The problem is the folks at the top have taken some of their buddies (lieutenants and captains) and made them instant colonels, lieutenant colonels, or majors....given them groups, wings, even a region or two.

Unfortunately, the recipients of this largess are, for the most part, quite inexperienced (in some cases only 2 years or so in CAP), and lacking substantial outside experience, qualifications, or education that would prepare them for leadership at the upper levels.
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Major Carrales
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,107

« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2006, 03:07:11 PM »

What we need is leaders who are in CAP for others, not themselves.....whose first concerns are always the mission and the members.
I agree. What I see as the systemic problem is the process of getting there. If you don't have a merit based promotion system, the leadership posts aren't done on merit (not just WG & up, but everything), and there's so little accountability.... where are we creating a dynamic that causes the cream to naturally rise? There's politics in the military too, at all levels & especially at the top, but the underlying foundation ensures it's kept pretty well in check. On the other hand you can look at a corporate model with a profit motive (even non-profits have a profit motive) & stake holders to answer to, that also naturally seeks out the best. I think we're just so informal about it & confused as to who we are that we take the worst of both systems & get real scared of anything that might hold anyone back in favor of better options.

The problem is the folks at the top have taken some of their buddies (lieutenants and captains) and made them instant colonels, lieutenant colonels, or majors....given them groups, wings, even a region or two.

Unfortunately, the recipients of this largess are, for the most part, quite inexperienced (in some cases only 2 years or so in CAP), and lacking substantial outside experience, qualifications, or education that would prepare them for leadership at the upper levels.

Almost sounds like Medeval Times were in disucssion about here.  Feudalism?  That sort of thing might be regarded as an "Enemy" of CAP, it needn't be an individual or group that does us in...but, rather a methodology.
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"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454
DNall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,721

« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2006, 05:32:16 PM »

What we need is leaders who are in CAP for others, not themselves.....whose first concerns are always the mission and the members.
I agree. What I see as the systemic problem is the process of getting there. If you don't have a merit based promotion system, the leadership posts aren't done on merit (not just WG & up, but everything), and there's so little accountability.... where are we creating a dynamic that causes the cream to naturally rise? There's politics in the military too, at all levels & especially at the top, but the underlying foundation ensures it's kept pretty well in check. On the other hand you can look at a corporate model with a profit motive (even non-profits have a profit motive) & stake holders to answer to, that also naturally seeks out the best. I think we're just so informal about it & confused as to who we are that we take the worst of both systems & get real scared of anything that might hold anyone back in favor of better options.

The problem is the folks at the top have taken some of their buddies (lieutenants and captains) and made them instant colonels, lieutenant colonels, or majors....given them groups, wings, even a region or two.

Unfortunately, the recipients of this largess are, for the most part, quite inexperienced (in some cases only 2 years or so in CAP), and lacking substantial outside experience, qualifications, or education that would prepare them for leadership at the upper levels.
Suire, but it's not just the NatCC. The same thing happens picking Gp or even Sq CCs, all the cooler staff & activity jobs. People tend to join/stay in CAP for one area, and leadership has the power to take that away from you if they want. Like I said, it's the worst of both worlds & degraded to personal politics. You could replace every leadership position w/ outstanding people, but if you don't change the system it'll just end up right back here again. The leaders we have now are a product of that system, and personally I'd don't want to see the successive models that roll off that assembly line. I want it fixed.

Now this would be one of those big crazy ideas that's too massive to do & requires remaking CAP, but in some way CAP needs remaking & in some ways there is no chance to do something incrementally. I know it requires big pressure from above, but I think some good things can happen in CAP if people are motivated & honest.
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Johnny Yuma
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 610

« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2006, 09:08:36 PM »

News Flash: I am on my Wing's staff, live 2 blocks from one of my Region staffers (we were cadets together) and have served on a couple National committees. NOTF isn't the enemy here, folks. Does Skip have an axe to grind with Pineda? Probably, but he does't have to create bad press when our National Cc is fully capable of doing that himself.

What's killing CAP? Poor leadership and lack of accountability to the membership.
Logged
"And Saint Attila raised the Holy Hand Grenade up on high saying, "Oh Lord, Bless us this Holy Hand Grenade, and with it smash our enemies to tiny bits. And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs, and stoats, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and lima bean-"
 
" Skip a bit, brother."
 
"And then the Lord spake, saying: "First, shalt thou take out the holy pin. Then shalt thou count to three. No more, no less. "Three" shall be the number of the counting, and the number of the counting shall be three. "Four" shalt thou not count, and neither count thou two, execpting that thou then goest on to three. Five is RIGHT OUT. Once the number three, being the third number be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade to-wards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuffit. Amen."

Armaments Chapter One, verses nine through twenty-seven:
ELTHunter
Seasoned Member

Posts: 346
Unit: SER-TN-170

« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2006, 09:36:03 PM »

So, in your opinion, how do we encourage the national command, BOG's and NB to be accountable to the membership?
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Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer
Major_Chuck
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 557

« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2006, 09:51:45 PM »

So, in your opinion, how do we encourage the national command, BOG's and NB to be accountable to the membership?

By becoming active. Attend the Commanders Call's and wing Conferences. Ask questions; get involved.
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Chuck Cranford
SGT, TNCO VA OCS
Virginia Army National Guard
mawr
Member

Posts: 93

« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2006, 10:06:24 PM »

By becoming active. Attend the Commanders Call's and wing Conferences. Ask questions; get involved.

Well said, Major_Chuck.
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Rick Hasha, Lt Col CAP
ELTHunter
Seasoned Member

Posts: 346
Unit: SER-TN-170

« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2006, 11:15:27 PM »

I am, very.  I do, I do, and I am.  However, I think the current system is stacked against the membership having any real influence over how the Boards vote on matters of national politics.  Even if you have a voice in your Wing, there are 52 other people that wield voting power on the National Board, and there really is no real member representation on the BOG.

I'll certainly continue to be active and contribute, but I think it's a little to naive to think that that's going to change things in any significant way.  The only real power to make significant changes in the strategic direction and management in CAP is to get elected/appointed to Wing CC or above, and I have no desire to play that political game.  That whole set up is at the root of CAP's political and leadership problems.

Unless/until either the USAF gets more control over the organization or the by-laws are changed to allow for greater leadership accountability to the membership. I do not believe the problems will go away.
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Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer
DNall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,721

« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2006, 11:43:37 PM »

I am, very.  I do, I do, and I am.  However, I think the current system is stacked against the membership having any real influence over how the Boards vote on matters of national politics.  Even if you have a voice in your Wing, there are 52 other people that wield voting power on the National Board, and there really is no real member representation on the BOG.

I'll certainly continue to be active and contribute, but I think it's a little to naive to think that that's going to change things in any significant way.  The only real power to make significant changes in the strategic direction and management in CAP is to get elected/appointed to Wing CC or above, and I have no desire to play that political game.  That whole set up is at the root of CAP's political and leadership problems.

Unless/until either the USAF gets more control over the organization or the by-laws are changed to allow for greater leadership accountability to the membership. I do not believe the problems will go away.
This the tale of two thread saying the same thing? Absolutely with the countable leadership. I wouldn't go for member elected corporate officers though. I know politics & it's not natural selection of the best people for the job, plus it gets awfully dirty under the best of circumstances. It's a core principle of leadership that you don't lead your people by virtue of being appointed over them, but by earning their respect & selling them on decisions (communication). That's the extent to which I think leadership needs to be accountable to us out here in the field. On the other hand, I think they need to be MASSIVELY more accountable to the AF, who should have the authority to keep them in the professional standard they (the AF) want out in the world representing them.
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ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,979

« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2006, 12:10:50 AM »

.
Suire, but it's not just the NatCC. The same thing happens picking Gp or even Sq CCs, all the cooler staff & activity jobs. People tend to join/stay in CAP for one area, and leadership has the power to take that away from you if they want. Like I said, it's the worst of both worlds & degraded to personal politics. You could replace every leadership position w/ outstanding people, but if you don't change the system it'll just end up right back here again. The leaders we have now are a product of that system, and personally I'd don't want to see the successive models that roll off that assembly line. I want it fixed.

Now this would be one of those big crazy ideas that's too massive to do & requires remaking CAP, but in some way CAP needs remaking & in some ways there is no chance to do something incrementally. I know it requires big pressure from above, but I think some good things can happen in CAP if people are motivated & honest.

Well, we need something...do you have anything specifically in mind?
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ELTHunter
Seasoned Member

Posts: 346
Unit: SER-TN-170

« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2006, 12:36:51 AM »


On the other hand, I think they need to be MASSIVELY more accountable to the AF, who should have the authority to keep them in the professional standard they (the AF) want out in the world representing them.

I think we are in total agreement on this point.  I'd much prefer leaving the selection of leadership to the AF IF there was a strong pool of CAP talent to draw upon, or alternatively, have CAP-USAF officers appointed by the USAF at the National and Region CC level.  I know there is a good deal of politics that goes on in the upper levels of military command, but at least professional military officers have had real training and application of leadership principles.  Unlike CAP where a person with virtually no prior experience or education in leadership or management can rise to commanding a national organization.

We talk a lot about being "unpaid professionals" instead of "volunteers".  For the organization to truly be "professional", our leadership MUST reflect the same professionalism that we expect of the members in the field that are executing the missions.  The actions of each group (both field operators and top leadership) reflects upon the organization, and one goes hand in hand with the other.  If we are seen by outside agencies that we work with as amateur's, it hurts our image and ability to secure new missions.  If our leadership, the very people who represent us to congress and the USAF, are not seen as professional officers and managers, the efforts of the "unpaid professionals" in the field are diminished.

Some here may think my posts have been insubordinate or anti-CAP, but I hope that they are not taken in that vein.  I believe that if you asked anyone who works with me in CAP, they would tell you that I am the exact opposite of that in nature.  Like most folks here, it is much more in my nature to salute and carry out orders, than to question authority.  However, the current organization of the corporation is NOT military, as much as some wish it to be.  The Wing, Region and National CC's are supposed to be OUR Representatives to the NB, BOG and the USAF.  When they do not live up the standards of honesty and integrity that we expect, we have both a right and duty to speak out and demand otherwise.

I'm gonna give it a rest now, as I think we have covered this same territory before over at CivilAirPortal.  There are some good ideas out there as to how to "fix" the organization.  I just hope someone who is in a positon to carry them out is paying attention.
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Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer
DNall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,721

« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2006, 12:14:30 PM »

I'll get back to you this afternoon, but yes I have quite a little plan we spent a lot of time talking about & refining on the protal - for those that think such a "what CAP could be some day" conversation is a waste of time... well, then don't participate for starters, but far as a reality check, the pressure from above effort I referred to previously is aimed at making much of this happen in the next few years. It is in fact an actionable item.
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Major Carrales
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,107

« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2006, 02:08:16 AM »

Listen, once we remember that we are here to accomplish missions for America and build our units up to met those needs, the better off we will be.  We have spend the last year building our unit...I'm over in South Texas.  It really matters little to those of us on the frontier "Who is National Commander" or "Who has he  fired," I'm too busy trying to get Form 5s and BFRs for our Aviators to meet our November Goals.  Also, to see what i can do to get our cadet program back on its feet.  To train our staff...

Now, why should I waste the energies and capital we are building in our community on this mishegas!!!
« Last Edit: November 04, 2006, 02:16:47 AM by Major Carrales » Logged
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  The Lobby  |  Topic: Who are, in your opinion, the enemies of CAP?
 


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