Hawk Mountain Ranger School

[Spike]

^ +1

Never once saw a policy letter from any wing Commander on Hawk Uniforms until Mr Applebaum a few years back dictating the wearing of the hawk patch in place of the wing patch.  I assume he did this because he was infatuated with the school, being a student himself in his cadet days. 

[FW]

The precedent has been set by continually allowing uniform violations for many many years.  Only until a clear consice CAPM 39-1 is written, a strong and representative uniform board is developed and, membership buy in occurs, will it change.

I don't mean to sound rude when I ask this, but if you agree that enforcement is the key (I agree with you), then why didn't you enforce it as the PAWG commander? Why did you continually allow uniform violations that allowed the precedent to continue? From what I read, the CAPM 39-1 is fairly clear on the issues that we're talking about, so I am genuinely interested in why you are willing to say that enforcement is a problem when you were one of the few people in a position to actually deal with the issue.

A fair question.  I did enforce these issues when I was the wing/cc.  I even went so far as to begin the process to close the school, relieved a vice commander over it and forced the resignation of the previous wing/cc as a member (who was an expert ranger).  However, the new HMRS standards became a reality, the school staff promised to uphold the standards, the NB allowed the wear of the "LL" patch and NHQ allowed HRMS to continue.  If my successor made any changes, I wasn't aware of them.  However, whatever he allowed wasn't authorized, now was it...

[Spike]

^ Sir, I heard most of that was over money issues.  That the property was purchased from the family by a "ranger club" and it was a legal mess??

From its very beginnings the School has had problems.  It takes some digging, but the truth is out there. 

[FW]

A very short history of Hawk Mt facility (please pardon my poetic license  ):
Phil Neuwiller owned the land and "sold" it to Rangers, Inc for $1.
Rangers, Inc. owned the land and let the Rangers use it for fun until 2001.
At that time the PAWG/CC got PO'd over all the fun without being invited.
He, with the help of CAP NHQ and quite a few others, "persuaded" the Rangers, Inc. board to sell to CAP, Inc for  $1.  HMRS became a full fledged NCSA; lot's of bucks were spent to get it in shape (thanks to the kick backs from Vangard).
Facility looks great, is up to code and has no money problems. 

No digging necessary (except for the septic system).  Just good "governance and transparency"......

BTW; "we" have done the same at NBB and NESA. 

[helper]

The just received 2010 Hawk Mountain flyer contains this:

"Students who successfully complete the HMRS can wear the NCSA ribbon and school "LL insignia" and any other earned insignia".

So it appears that they are following the guidelines mentioned several times above, although I'm unclear about what is included in "... any other earned insignia". 

[CadetProgramGuy]

According to my last foray into the HMRS saga with wing is that anything earned at HM is open territory to wear in the general population.

The last cadet I dealt with got to wear his orange hat (with roll), ranger tab, and LL patch. I was literally told to go away by the Wing Commander.

[flyguy06]

Do these guys actually get ranger tabs?

[TACP]

Yes, keeping in mind they are completely different than the US Army RANGER tab.

Exmples from the Hock Shop: http://www.thehock.com/shop/?cat=44&shop=1

And as for NBB and Hawk Mountain Uniform items, they have been approved for wear with/on the BDU Green or Blue uniform by the National Board.
They are forbidden with/on any AF Blues Combination.

[davidsinn]

Yes, keeping in mind they are completely different than the US Army RANGER tab.

Exmples from the Hock Shop: http://www.thehock.com/shop/?cat=44&shop=1

And as for NBB and Hawk Mountain Uniform items, they have been approved for wear with/on the BDU Green or Blue uniform by the National Board.
They are forbidden with/on any AF Blues Combination.

Until the AF signs off on it they can not be worn on woodland BDUs. However that hasn't stopped anyone from doing it.

[Spike]

^ Agreed!  As a Squadron Commander I can dictate uniform policy at the local level.  The LL Patch and nothing else.  I like to try to keep everyone looking ........"uniform".

[CadetProgramGuy]

Yes, keeping in mind they are completely different than the US Army RANGER tab.

Exmples from the Hock Shop: http://www.thehock.com/shop/?cat=44&shop=1

And as for NBB and Hawk Mountain Uniform items, they have been approved for wear with/on the BDU Green or Blue uniform by the National Board.
They are forbidden with/on any AF Blues Combination.

Until the AF signs off on it they can not be worn on woodland BDUs. However that hasn't stopped anyone from doing it.

Several in our wing have it on BDU's.....Cadets and Seniors.....

Then again CAP NHQ did put out the ICL on Blue Beret and HM gear approving it for wear.

[davidsinn]

Yes, keeping in mind they are completely different than the US Army RANGER tab.

Exmples from the Hock Shop: http://www.thehock.com/shop/?cat=44&shop=1

And as for NBB and Hawk Mountain Uniform items, they have been approved for wear with/on the BDU Green or Blue uniform by the National Board.
They are forbidden with/on any AF Blues Combination.

Until the AF signs off on it they can not be worn on woodland BDUs. However that hasn't stopped anyone from doing it.

Several in our wing have it on BDU's.....Cadets and Seniors.....

Then again CAP NHQ did put out the ICL on Blue Beret and HM gear approving it for wear.

Only on the Corp. uniforms. The AF style is pending AF approval.

[heliodoc]

Things in CAP would be SOOOOOO much better if the uniforms were totally eliminated

HAWK Mountain included

If a uniform is all you got to hang onto.....you reallly have problems

CAP, in general, needs to move away from ALLLL uniforms issues and grow up

Hawk Mountain could then be better respected!

[RiverAux]

I wonder how CAP-USAF's recent statements regarding their authority to veto any CAP uniform item, whether on corporate or AF-style uniform might affect some of these items. 

[sarmed1]

Things in CAP would be SOOOOOO much better if the uniforms were totally eliminated

Not to deviate to far from the usual dog plie...but I have to agreee to a certain extent.  The only area of the program that I think needs to have military uniforms is the cadet program; or even a military grade structure for that matter.

The rest of the time the idea of civilian aux is perfectly acceptable...the military has civilian employees the are even often responsabile for militrary equipment and members and the world does not come crashing down.  ...the only thing you dont see very often is deployable civilian assets (other than PMC type contractors)
CP you play the military, leaders wear military style uniforms but thats where it ends...everyone/thing else BBDU, polo's or grey/whites...corporate/EMA/firefighter style

This might force HMRS to decide if they are a cadet leadership activity or a SAR school....not the part of both that they like.

mk

[PA Guy]

Things in CAP would be SOOOOOO much better if the uniforms were totally eliminated

HAWK Mountain included

If a uniform is all you got to hang onto.....you reallly have problems

CAP, in general, needs to move away from ALLLL uniforms issues and grow up

Hawk Mountain could then be better respected!

Does that include the cadet program or just the senior program?

[Eclipse]

I wonder how CAP-USAF's recent statements regarding their authority to veto any CAP uniform item, whether on corporate or AF-style uniform might affect some of these items.

Where was that?

[davidsinn]

I wonder how CAP-USAF's recent statements regarding their authority to veto any CAP uniform item, whether on corporate or AF-style uniform might affect some of these items.

Where was that?

2010 NB agenda.

[Senior]

Just received an announcement for HMRS Aircrew Survival Training.
Is this a new course?  If it is not new, then has anybody attended
the course?
I see that HMRS also offers a Ranger Command and Staff College.
Is this a new course?  Has anyone attended it?

[CadetProgramGuy]

Yes, keeping in mind they are completely different than the US Army RANGER tab.

Exmples from the Hock Shop: http://www.thehock.com/shop/?cat=44&shop=1

And as for NBB and Hawk Mountain Uniform items, they have been approved for wear with/on the BDU Green or Blue uniform by the National Board.
They are forbidden with/on any AF Blues Combination.

Until the AF signs off on it they can not be worn on woodland BDUs. However that hasn't stopped anyone from doing it.

Several in our wing have it on BDU's.....Cadets and Seniors.....

Then again CAP NHQ did put out the ICL on Blue Beret and HM gear approving it for wear.

Only on the Corp. uniforms. The AF style is pending AF approval.

While that is very true, I'm pretty sure I can find pics of BDU's with Ranger garb......