Just wondering about a few things

[RedFox24]

Of those who are also part of other volunteer organizations, how many of them consider you an "employee" when you're on official business?  How many are covered by insurance when you're on "official business"?  How many when not on "official business"?  Have you ever got a W2 or 1099 from those organizations? 

Was at another volunteer organization meeting last night that I am a part of when the discussion came up about us being considered employees when we were on "official business" of the organization because we were covered by the organizations insurance in such a capacity.  However the legal eagles in attendance noted that unless we get a W2 or 1099 we are not employees even if we have insurance coverage extended to us when on "official business".  And we were not "violating" our volunteer "non paid" status as such. 

Knowing that CAP/USAF considers us as federal employees when on missions, because we are extended workman's comp  insurance coverage during such, and if the above legal sharks know what they are talking about, I wonder how CAP/USAF can claim we have any pecuniary interest in the organization when we are in uniform vs. out of uniform.

I am not looking for smart remarks but want input from those in other organizations where they volunteer and get considered an employee when on official business of the organization and yet never get a W2 or 1099.  Are these organizations, CAP included, getting their cake and eating it also?  Or is this all just a CYA move............? 

It has me thinking about how CAP is "using" us.

[PA Guy]

I volunteer for several organizations:

US Dept of Health and Human Services DMAT (Disaster Medical Assistance Team).  We are considered intermittent fed. employees when activated by HHS and get a W-2 when paid. Training time is usually uncompensated  but are still considered employees for workmens comp. etc.

USCG Aux.  I get travel orders from the CG unit I'm supporting to cover mileage and per diem.  I am also provided medical liability coverage.  No W-2 or 1099.  My professional services are uncompensated. The CG covers me for injuries and damage claims.  I have an employee ID#

State Def. Force.  Considered a state employee when on orders.  I get a W-2 for paid State Active Duty.  For unpaid SAD I am still considered a state employee for workmen's comp/liability purposes. 

[Ned]

And we were not "violating" our volunteer "non paid" status as such. 

Knowing that CAP/USAF considers us as federal employees when on missions, because we are extended workman's comp  insurance coverage during such, and if the above legal sharks know what they are talking about, I wonder how CAP/USAF can claim we have any pecuniary interest in the organization when we are in uniform vs. out of uniform.

I'm a bit of a legal guy, and after reading the above several times, I'm still not sure what you are asking.

What do you mean by "pecuniary interest in the organization"?

I've never heard that phrase in CAP legal circles. 

Remember, the whole "CAP will deny you any benefits if you were out of uniform at the time of an incident" is an urban myth.

You are right that the question may well be if you were on official business when you (pranged the CAP aircraft/vehicle, etc.), but uniform status is just one of the factors that will be used to determine duty status.

BTW, I volunteer for a number of organizations, but have never received a W-2/1099 from any organization that did not pay me a salary or reimbuse expenses.

Could you restate your question, and I will give the best answer I can.

[lordmonar]

Being covered by insurance....has nothing to do with being an emploee.  It is all about how the insurance is written.

In CAP you are coved by CAP insurance while on CAP buisness....Not very much and FICA when on AFAM....but no one gets W2s.

[Eclipse]

and FICA when on AFAM....but no one gets W2s.

Its FECA...

[ol'fido]

And we were not "violating" our volunteer "non paid" status as such. 

Knowing that CAP/USAF considers us as federal employees when on missions, because we are extended workman's comp  insurance coverage during such, and if the above legal sharks know what they are talking about, I wonder how CAP/USAF can claim we have any pecuniary interest in the organization when we are in uniform vs. out of uniform.

I'm a bit of a legal guy, and after reading the above several times, I'm still not sure what you are asking.

What do you mean by "pecuniary interest in the organization"?

I've never heard that phrase in CAP legal circles. 

Remember, the whole "CAP will deny you any benefits if you were out of uniform at the time of an incident" is an urban myth.

You are right that the question may well be if you were on official business when you (pranged the CAP aircraft/vehicle, etc.), but uniform status is just one of the factors that will be used to determine duty status.

BTW, I volunteer for a number of organizations, but have never received a W-2/1099 from any organization that did not pay me a salary or reimbuse expenses.

Could you restate your question, and I will give the best answer I can.

Regards the  FCC rule that a person who is an amateur radio operator cannot operate as an amateur on behalf of an entity or served agency if they have a pecuniary interest in the agency or entity. For instance, employee of a hospital that has emergengy radio gear that operates on the ham bands and who is an ham themselves cannot operate the radios during non-emergency operations, i.e. training or exercises.

[RedFox24]

For Ned and others.

CAP is a volunteer organization, correct?  I get no W2 or 1099 for being on a mission or getting reimbursed for expenses during a mission, meeting or otherwise.  I have no financial interest in or compensation from this organization.  So does CAP consider me an employee only because we are covered by insurance? 

Same for other organizations, if I get no W2 or 1099, I am not an employee. 

Other than for an insurance purpose, how can any organization consider someone who is not paid or compensated with a documented W2 or 1099 an employee?

Ned your correct, I also have never heard "pecuniary interest" used in CAP circles, it was used at the meeting I was at to define "employee or someone conducting business" for an organization.  Meaning that unless you got a W2 or 1099, your not an employee regardless of what status the organization gives you.   

For Olefido example, if I volunteer at the local hospital, get no financial compensation (W2 or 1099) but am covered by their insurance while in the facility.  I am not an employee of that institution.  The ham radio part is a good example, but not my reason for asking. 

Same thing with the local EMA, if I volunteer with them for times when CAP is not active on a search or such, I am considered an employee of the EMA even though I get no financial compensation from them.

So I have been told directly and indirectly over the last 30 years that CAP considers me as an employee because I am covered by insurance.  Is this true?  How does CAP view its members and why?

[Eclipse]

So I have been told directly and indirectly over the last 30 years that CAP considers me as an employee because I am covered by insurance.

By whom?

There's certainly no regulatory or legal support for that claim.

[Airrace]

A employee is a  person who works for another in return for financial or other compensation. Since we are not compensated or paid we are not an employeee of the CAP organization.

[Ned]

So I have been told directly and indirectly over the last 30 years that CAP considers me as an employee because I am covered by insurance.  Is this true?  How does CAP view its members and why?

First, why does it matter?

Second, let us suppose that "employee" can have slightly different legal meanings depending on the context.

For example, imagine that CAP's contract with our insurance companies defines volunteer members as "employees" for the purpose of liability coverage.  But that contract would not affect things like Alabama state law, which almost certainly defines an "employee" as someone who performs specified tasks for compensation on a regular basis who is not part of an independant company. 

Certainly the FECA folks "deem" us as employees while we are performing AF authroized missions, but somehow I don't think I'm gonna see a paycheck or a 401k match from NHQ anytime soon.

So, the question of when a volunteer can be deemed an "employee" depends on the context.

Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer

[RRLE]

The lawyers might do better but I could find no reference in the US Code that ever designates a CAP volunteer as an employee of the federal government. I did find where they are defined as an "instrumentality" which might be the same thing.

10 USC 9442. Status as volunteer civilian auxiliary of the Air Force

(2) The Civil Air Patrol shall be deemed to be an instrumentality of the United States with respect to any act or omission of the Civil Air Patrol, including any member of the Civil Air Patrol, in carrying out a mission assigned by the Secretary of the Air Force.

A USCG Auxiliary volunteer, OTOH, is explicity a federal employee for certain purposes.

14 USC 823a. Members of the Auxiliary; status

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, a member of the Coast Guard Auxiliary shall not be considered to be a Federal employee and shall not be subject to the provisions of law relating to Federal employment, including those relating to hours of work, rates of compensation, leave, unemployment compensation, Federal employee benefits, ethics, conflicts of interest, and other similar criminal or civil statutes and regulations governing the conduct of Federal employees. However, nothing in this subsection shall constrain the Commandant from prescribing standards for the conduct and behavior of members of the Auxiliary.

(b) A member of the Auxiliary while assigned to duty shall be     deemed to be a Federal employee only for the purposes of the following:
(1) Chapter 26 (!1) of title 28 (popularly known as the Federal Tort Claims Act).
(2) Section 2733 of title 10 (popularly known as the Military Claims Act).
(3) Section 30101 of title 46 (popularly known as the Admiralty Extension Act).
(4) Chapter 309 of title 46 (known as the Suits in Admiralty Act).
(5) Chapter 311 of title 46 (known as the Public Vessels Act).
(6) Other matters related to noncontractual civil liability.
(7) Compensation for work injuries under chapter 81 of title 5.
( 8 ) The resolution of claims relating to damage to or loss of personal property of the member incident to service under the Military Personnel and Civilian Employees' Claims Act of 1964 (31 U.S.C. 3721).(!1)
(9) On or after January 1, 2001, section 651 of Public Law 104-208.

(c) A member of the Auxiliary, while assigned to duty, shall be deemed to be a person acting under an officer of the United States or an agency thereof for purposes of section 1442(a)(1) of title 28.

[RiverAux]

There is a Code somewhere about CAP and FECA coverage.  Don't recall it saying we were employees, but has some calculations as to potential benefits based on some GS level. 

But as Ned says it doesn't matter whether or not we're employees or not, it matters that in some situations we are basically acting for the federal government and in those situations the feds cover us for certain things.

[Eclipse]

The lawyers might do better but I could find no reference in the US Code that ever designates a CAP volunteer as an employee of the federal government. I did find where they are defined as an "instrumentality" which might be the same thing.

10 USC 9442. Status as volunteer civilian auxiliary of the Air Force

Its not.  Being an "instrumentality" simply means that the person is performing a function for, and with the authorization of, the government.  There is no compensation or employee relationship inherent in the term.

[RRLE]

There is a Code somewhere about CAP and FECA coverage.

With that assist the code section is 5 USC 8141. Section 8141 is within Chapter 81, Compensation for Work Injuries. Title 5 deals with government employess.

Also see CAP NHQ FECA Brochure

[RiverAux]

And there are also quite a few states, from what I understand and have seen in looking at some state laws, where similar coverage from the state is extended for CAP members under certain circumstances.   Sometimes this is as part of more general laws covering emergency volunteers and sometimes it is CAP-specific. 

[JC004]

Ned, wouldn't you draw the distinction, given the various protections and laws concerning employees which likely don't apply to volunteers?  I am sure there are even more in the Peoples Republic of California, aren't there?  They like making laws.

[Ned]

Ned, wouldn't you draw the distinction, given the various protections and laws concerning employees which likely don't apply to volunteers?  I am sure there are even more in the Peoples Republic of California, aren't there?  They like making laws.

Of course.  There are 6.02 gazillion laws that apply to employees that do not apply to volunteers like minimum wage, breaks, workmans comp, etc.

That's why the OP's questions really depend on the context of the specific concern..