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Author Topic: Running the cadet program like boot camp.  (Read 8248 times)
cadet_dude
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Posts: 3

« on: October 03, 2006, 04:35:16 AM »

I have a problem.  I joined the CAP several months back after hearing about it and reading about it years ago.  I loved the organization and everything it stood for, and its slightly more military flair to the boy scouts that i was already in.

But now i have a problem.  My squadron's cadet program has changed, and it is a change i fear that is not for the better.  You see, my squadron's cadet program is flooded with some "wannabe" types who think they're all hard because they want to act like military folk and stuff, so they've started taking the cadet program's hard-core-ness to the max.

First, let me explain that I understand CAP has obvious ties to the Air Force and is a military-esque organization so the corresponding hierarchy and traditions, etc. should be expected.  But this is too much.  My squadron's cadet program has started being run like boot camp, all the time.

For example, all the officers/sergeants are constantly using a one-volume command voice with no rest saying things like "get downstairs.  MOVE! YOU SHOULD ALREADY BE DOWN THERE!"  And they make us march in formation everywhere even if it's ten steps to the next classroom.

Please, let me reiterate.  I expected to march in CAP, and enjoy the military slant on things, but this is taking it over the top.  There is no need to constantly without exception be standing at either attention or parade rest.  Doing so does not accomplish anything and only zaps cadets of enthusiasm they had for the program.

For example, if you look at active duty military, sure this behavior is expected at Basic Military Training, but once they're on they're day-to-day jobs, you don't see officers and sergeants never stop yelling at personell like the officers/sergeants are doing toward cadets and having them stand in formation for the entire 2 and a half hour meeting, every single week without exception.

This is ridiculous. They also have started enforcing a no-talking rule that I fail to see the purpose of.  You see, I realize in certain situations when focus is needed, or if there is a speaker or something that talking should not be allowed, but my squadron has begun implementing a no-cadet-talking rule for ALL meeting EVERY meeting unless addressed by a superior.  This is useless.  Please tell me what this accomplishes.

Finally, let me end with restating what I have said time and again in this post:  I have NO problem with military customs, courtesies,and behavior, and I expect it at CAP.  But this goes ABOVE AND BEYOND what is necessary and acceptable.  Treating your squadron like  a 24/7 boot camp is UNNECESSARYand only DEPLETES cadets enthusiasm and interest in the program.

Sincerely,
A Frustrated Cadet, too low in the ranks to say anything about it to the squadron.
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Psicorp
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« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2006, 12:50:32 PM »

This should be posted in every squadron's meeting area.  There are too many great kids out there and we have too high of a retention problem for overzealous behavior. 

If this kind of thing is going on to get cadets prepared for an Encampment, that's one thing (maybe), but to have it be an on-going thing is taking it a bit far, in my opinion.

You are never too low in the ranks to speak your mind and to have your opinions heard.  Yes you do have to do so with tact and do so through the chain of command.  Have you talked with other cadets?  Do they feel the same way?  Is this cadet officers conducting things or is it senior officers?   What about your squadron's safety officer?  What does she/he think?

Above all, be honest and be non-confrontational, no matter how frustrated you may be.  Remember always that the Cadet Program is your program too.  The CadetStuff website is a good resource, so there's no reason to feel isolated and helpless.   Let me know what happens, okay?


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Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
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Al Sayre
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« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2006, 01:12:08 PM »

Take the issue through your chain of command.  As Psicorp said, you are never to lowly to have your voice heard.  Explain the issue to your Flight Sergeant first and then work your way up to the Squadron Commander and Wing Director of Cadet Programs if necessary.  Each link in the chain has a right to know what your issue is, but they cannot stop you from taking it to the next higher link in the chain.  I would probably describe it as a borderline hazing issue, especially if it is primarily directed at only the lower ranking (non-staff) cadets.  Be tactful, but don't be afraid to speak your mind.  The very worst thing they can do to you is kick you out of CAP and your letter indicates you will probably quit anyway. 

If the SQ/CC is encouraging this type of behavior, then your Squadron probably needs a visit from the Wing or Group Director of Cadet Programs.  Another way you can approach this is to take it to the Chaplain and ask him to push it up the chain.  Also, do not be afraid to get your parents involved.  The Cadet Program is not suppposed to be a boot camp, and if the cadets leave, there is no program. 
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Lt Col Al Sayre
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ZigZag911
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« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2006, 03:04:59 PM »

By all means, express your concerns to the chain of command.....CAP has the principle of trying to resolve problems at the lowest echelon possible.....if you can get a fair hearing and some sort of response from the cadet staff, great!

If not, then your recourse is to say "Thank you for taking the time to listen, I understand we disagree on this matter, and i respectfully request to sepak to the deputy commander for cadets." (or squadron commander, if you're in a cadet squadron)

You need to be firm but polite....this request can not be denied, but very often inexperienced personnel (especially newer cadet NCOs/officers) don't understand this.

Also, don't hesitate to get your parents involved when it comes to speaking to the officers.
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cadet_dude
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« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2006, 05:26:34 PM »

Thanks everybody.  I have no intention of quitting, but if I can't get the problem resolved I will seriously consider moving squadrons.  Thanks again for your input.
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Psicorp
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« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2006, 06:03:11 PM »

Thanks everybody.  I have no intention of quitting, but if I can't get the problem resolved I will seriously consider moving squadrons.  Thanks again for your input.

I'm really glad to read that.   There are too many opportunities for cadets in this organization to quit over some knucklehead's idea of what the Cadet Program should be.  That goes not just for your current situation but in many others you'll encounter along the way.   

I've been a C/AB and I've been a C/Lt Col, and believe me there are a lot of really great people out there as well as some who...aren't so great.   If you have to switch squadrons then that's fine, but don't forget about the other cadets who may be feeling the same way you are...take them with you.    Good Luck!
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flyguy06
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« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2006, 11:32:10 PM »

So, the change in CAP membership from military minded people to a more youth camp minded people will definantly change the make up of CAP. Us dinosaurs who want it to be more military will become disinchanted and leave and the whole makeup will change. It may be better and it may be worse but it will definantly be a new organization
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Psicorp
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« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2006, 11:53:17 PM »

So, the change in CAP membership from military minded people to a more youth camp minded people will definitely change the make up of CAP. Us dinosaurs who want it to be more military will become disinchanted and leave and the whole makeup will change. It may be better and it may be worse but it will definitely be a new organization

Who said anything about youth campiness?   There is a big difference between military bearing, protocol, and drill versus treating meetings like you're a drill sergeant on the first day of basic training.   

I think our military mindedness, i.e. ethics, bearing, professionalism, customs, and courtesies only make us more distinct from regular "civilian" organizations.  It also lends us some creditability with governments (all levels) and other agencies because we get oversight from the military.

I have had the honor and pleasure of serving under and with so called "dinosaurs."    We need and want your experience, professionalism,  commitment, and high standards so we can raise a new generation of "dinosaurs."   Egos, however, can be checked at the front door.
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Pylon
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Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2006, 02:11:54 AM »

So, the change in CAP membership from military minded people to a more youth camp minded people will definitely change the make up of CAP. Us dinosaurs who want it to be more military will become disinchanted and leave and the whole makeup will change. It may be better and it may be worse but it will definitely be a new organization

Who said anything about youth campiness?   There is a big difference between military bearing, protocol, and drill versus treating meetings like you're a drill sergeant on the first day of basic training.   

I think our military mindedness, i.e. ethics, bearing, professionalism, customs, and courtesies only make us more distinct from regular "civilian" organizations.  It also lends us some creditability with governments (all levels) and other agencies because we get oversight from the military.

I have had the honor and pleasure of serving under and with so called "dinosaurs."    We need and want your experience, professionalism,  commitment, and high standards so we can raise a new generation of "dinosaurs."   Egos, however, can be checked at the front door.


I agree.  CAP is unique in that we have a military-based program.  Our ranks, our uniforms, our professionalism all give CAP's program, and in particular the Cadet Program, a leg up on anybody else's program.  We should not get rid of that, but I don't think anybody here is advocating that.

There is a distinct difference between having a profession, well-run cadet program and having over-zealous, unchecked cadet leaders running around like Gunnery Sgt Hartmann in Full Metal Jacket.  Cadet leaders need the appropriate supervision from senior members, and in this case it sounds like they're running around without any level-headed check and balances.  Just as the Air Force (or any other branch) wouln't tolerate such junior leaders in any circumstance, neither should CAP.  This is military.

Cadet leaders are growing, and the Cadet Program is a leadership laboratory.  New cadet NCOs and officers are supposed to be exploring different leadership techniques, styles, and processes.  However, a laboratory is supposed to be a controlled environment.  Those with the leadership experience, in this case the senior members, need to give those cadet leaders focus and direction.  Without that strucutre, they're running around like a soprano-voiced Drill Instructor.

This is certainly an issue that needs immediate attention from experienced leaders.  If the senior members directly in charge of the cadet program at the squadron can't address that, then senior members at the next highest echelon need to step in.  I'm not saying this is the case, but regardless of where that structure and control comes from it needs to be added to the afore described program.

Good luck with that.
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
cadet_dude
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« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2006, 05:30:24 PM »

So, the change in CAP membership from military minded people to a more youth camp minded people will definantly change the make up of CAP. Us dinosaurs who want it to be more military will become disinchanted and leave and the whole makeup will change. It may be better and it may be worse but it will definantly be a new organization

I think you misunderstood.  I believe I made it clear in my first two posts that I have no problem with CAP being military-like.  I joined CAP because I wanted more marching, rank structure, and a more defined chain of command than organizations like Boy Scouts could offer.

But this situation is different.  I'm not talking about practicing drill, or Cadet I-Don't-Care getting a good talking-to when he smarts off to a superior.  All that is expected, and should be happening.

In this situation, I'm talking about cadet flight sergeants screaming their heads off as though they have absolutely no volume other than command-voice-volume, putting the flight at attention or parade rest the entire meeting, enforcing a no talking rule that is effective the entire meeting, even when it is not necessary.  On PT nights, all we hear is an overzealous cadet who also happens to have just come back from basic training from the military and wants to prove something, so he talks for thirty minutes about the proper form of a sit-up until someone accidently glances over at him while at parade rest.  He takes  a moment from his speech to go up to the cadet, yell in his face, and tell him he had better not see his eyes move ever again.  After he's done with his sit-up speech, we commence PT testing, during which this overzealous cadet does a miraculous 70 situps--breaking every rule he just ranted half an hour over.

Flyguy06, I'm not talking about making CAP any less military.  But I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a military post you can walk onto and see active duty military on their day-to-day jobs standing at a constant position of attention or parade rest, never talking, and yelling at people of a lower grade than they are just because.

It is not an issue of being military.  It is an issue of appropriate behavior, and this 24/7 encampment-style cadet program is not serving the mission of CAP and is only making cadets leave, as I have seen over the past month or so.
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Psicorp
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« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2006, 06:34:41 PM »

That definately sounds like a serious lack of oversight and a serious flaw in judgement. 

Do what it takes, with the suggestions listed by the Officers above, and get it stopped.  Get Officer support and oversight, and get them involved and encourage them to stay involved.  There are a lot of things cadets can do, but none of them can be done without the assistance and support of your squadron's Officers.

You demonstrate a level of maturity and communication here that should get someone's attention there. 

Then have someone (preferably an Officer) contact the cadets who have left.  Let them see how the program is supposed to be run. 

Keep us posted.

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Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
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Matt
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« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2006, 09:34:22 PM »

[...]  He takes  a moment from his speech to go up to the cadet, yell in his face, and tell him he had better not see his eyes move ever again.  [...]

Umm, he can't do that.  To place it lightly -- there are actually rules against that for specific reasons as afore mentioned...
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Matthew Kopp, Maj, CAP
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ZigZag911
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« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2006, 10:18:41 PM »

So, the change in CAP membership from military minded people to a more youth camp minded people will definantly change the make up of CAP. Us dinosaurs who want it to be more military will become disinchanted and leave and the whole makeup will change. It may be better and it may be worse but it will definantly be a new organization

The original poster said nothing about wanting a youth camp environment.

He does seem to be looking for an atmosphere in which cadets are treated as young persons training to be 'dynamic American leaders', not somebody's warped idea of 'hardcore military'.....I say warped, because I have had the privilege of knowing many professional military members over the years, and can assure you that when their training does become somewhat extreme, it is for valid operational purposes, not because anyone is trying to demonstrate how tough they are.

As someone who is almost certainly more of "dinosaur" than you are (my total CAP service is approaching 40 years, continuous), there is a need for structure that teaches self-discipline -- but, quite frankly, it has been my experience that many of the seniors need it far more than the cadets!!!



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flyguy06
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« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2006, 10:36:37 PM »

I agree. CAP is NOT boot camp. We arent supposed to be inthe business of making combat ready soldiers. I amtatally against that. However, what I do see is a trend to the other extreme. We have taken the military out of the cadet program. Cadets cant be on real missions anymore. Cadets 18 years and older can ear the civilan uniform now. I Because I was a cadet inthe 80's I know myself and most of my friends joined CAP because we WANTED that military atmosphere. It helped me prepare for my future military career.

If you have a cadet come to attenton when a SM comes into the room, its considered hazing. Come on now, thats a little extreme dont you think?
What we ned is betterinvolvment of Senior members working with cadets. We SM's that know how to lead and teach leradership insted of jst saying "Let the cadets run it" 16 and 17 year olds need guidence. When I was in college ROTC I had a instructor who guided us.Now if 19 and 20 year olds have this shouldnt younger cadets have it as well?
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Matt
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« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2006, 11:25:50 PM »

I hate to be the horse, but isn't anyone noting the trend yet?

With guidance from SMs the cadets will prosper.  However, it must be positive influence and mentoring.  If the SMs are, per se, too harsh, or they themselves are mis-guided there will be a negative influx of occurrences.


*Side Note* Cadets at any age may wear certain CAP-Distinctive uniforms.  Those not meeting grooming at any age should be wearing them, those over 18 not meeting grooming or weight should be wearing them per CAP Man 39-1.
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Matthew Kopp, Maj, CAP
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shorning
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« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2006, 12:05:14 AM »

Personally, I think I smell a troll.  So...let me ask.  In which state is this happening?
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ZigZag911
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« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2006, 03:36:43 PM »

If you have a cadet come to attenton when a SM comes into the room, its considered hazing. Come on now, thats a little extreme dont you think?

That's VERY extreme, bordering on a ridiculous misinterpretation of the CPPT regulation.

Your comments (and those some others have made) about positive senior involvement are exactly right...everyone (senior and cadets0 should come to attention when a ranking officer enters the room, unless a formation, class, or similar event is in progress -- in which case the activity leader (officer or cadet in charge) should acknowledge and welcome the superior.

The crux of the problem is that it's all about "leading by personal example" -- and too many "officers" are unwilling to demonstrate correct military courtesy.
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flyguy06
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« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2006, 12:41:58 AM »

I agree. You dont want to be too harsh and you do want to lead by example. Thats wy I cant stand SM's that work with cadets and choose to wear the blue shirt grey slacks combo. I have never even owned this combo. I work with cadets and if I am going to tell cadets how to wear the uniform properly. I have to be willing to wear it myself. (and you're talking about a 18 year Army guy putting on a semi-AF uniform) That takes a lot of discipline.
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capchiro
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« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2006, 10:43:34 AM »

Flyguy 06, some senior members have no option but to wear the CAP distinctive uniform for a number of reasons.  That doesn't mean that they are not great assets to the program.  As some people age and develop chronic illnesses, they can not control their weight.  If the military let people stay in until 60-70 years old, I don't think they would all be able to pass their physicals.  Our senior members are not required to be in shape to defend our country.  I would rather have some old member with some maturity and 20 years military experience in the blue and gray than some 22 year old with a tight a-s and no experience.  We can't all look like Tom Cruise in a flight suit, but we can still give of our time and efforts to make this country a better place by contributing to the youth and military in our own way.  As usual, JMHO
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ZigZag911
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« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2006, 05:20:37 PM »

I agree. You dont want to be too harsh and you do want to lead by example. Thats wy I cant stand SM's that work with cadets and choose to wear the blue shirt grey slacks combo. I have never even owned this combo. I work with cadets and if I am going to tell cadets how to wear the uniform properly. I have to be willing to wear it myself. (and you're talking about a 18 year Army guy putting on a semi-AF uniform) That takes a lot of discipline.

I suppose if you run into your former Army colleagues you can always offer a dignified explanation, like you've joined the US Postal Service, or are auditioning to appear as Ralph Kramden in the movie version of 'The Honeymooners"!
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flyguy06
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« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2006, 05:51:08 AM »

So, the change in CAP membership from military minded people to a more youth camp minded people will definitely change the make up of CAP. Us dinosaurs who want it to be more military will become disinchanted and leave and the whole makeup will change. It may be better and it may be worse but it will definitely be a new organization

Who said anything about youth campiness?   There is a big difference between military bearing, protocol, and drill versus treating meetings like you're a drill sergeant on the first day of basic training.   

I think our military mindedness, i.e. ethics, bearing, professionalism, customs, and courtesies only make us more distinct from regular "civilian" organizations.  It also lends us some creditability with governments (all levels) and other agencies because we get oversight from the military.

I have had the honor and pleasure of serving under and with so called "dinosaurs."    We need and want your experience, professionalism,  commitment, and high standards so we can raise a new generation of "dinosaurs."   Egos, however, can be checked at the front door.


I agree.  CAP is unique in that we have a military-based program.  Our ranks, our uniforms, our professionalism all give CAP's program, and in particular the Cadet Program, a leg up on anybody else's program.  We should not get rid of that, but I don't think anybody here is advocating that.

There is a distinct difference between having a profession, well-run cadet program and having over-zealous, unchecked cadet leaders running around like Gunnery Sgt Hartmann in Full Metal Jacket.  Cadet leaders need the appropriate supervision from senior members, and in this case it sounds like they're running around without any level-headed check and balances.  Just as the Air Force (or any other branch) wouln't tolerate such junior leaders in any circumstance, neither should CAP.  This is military.

Cadet leaders are growing, and the Cadet Program is a leadership laboratory.  New cadet NCOs and officers are supposed to be exploring different leadership techniques, styles, and processes.  However, a laboratory is supposed to be a controlled environment.  Those with the leadership experience, in this case the senior members, need to give those cadet leaders focus and direction.  Without that strucutre, they're running around like a soprano-voiced Drill Instructor.

This is certainly an issue that needs immediate attention from experienced leaders.  If the senior members directly in charge of the cadet program at the squadron can't address that, then senior members at the next highest echelon need to step in.  I'm not saying this is the case, but regardless of where that structure and control comes from it needs to be added to the afore described program.

Good luck with that.

Pylon.

You said exactly what I have been trying to say, you just said it more elegantly. Thanks ;D
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flyguy06
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« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2006, 05:53:55 AM »

Flyguy 06, some senior members have no option but to wear the CAP distinctive uniform for a number of reasons.  That doesn't mean that they are not great assets to the program.  As some people age and develop chronic illnesses, they can not control their weight.  If the military let people stay in until 60-70 years old, I don't think they would all be able to pass their physicals.  Our senior members are not required to be in shape to defend our country.  I would rather have some old member with some maturity and 20 years military experience in the blue and gray than some 22 year old with a tight a-s and no experience.  We can't all look like Tom Cruise in a flight suit, but we can still give of our time and efforts to make this country a better place by contributing to the youth and military in our own way.  As usual, JMHO

I agree with you capchiro. Ther eare exceptions. But that member should be making an effot to put him or herself in a position to wear the military style uniform. That in itself goes to self discipline which is what we are trying to teach cadets inthe first place. We should be able to do PT withthe cadets. We should be able to stand inspection with cadets. If my cadets go through an obstacle course, you better believe I will be leading the way.
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ZigZag911
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« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2006, 05:26:11 PM »

Quote from: flygu[/quote
We should be able to do PT withthe cadets. We should be able to stand inspection with cadets. If my cadets go through an obstacle course, you better believe I will be leading the way.

I presume, sir, that you are either have yet to reach middle age, or are the 21st century version of the fabled Jack LaLanne, the fitness guru!

Most seniors can no longer keep up with teenagers physically, due to a process known as "entropy", also called "aging". Most of us, if we insisted on leading the way through an obstacle course, would turn into additional obstacles for the cadets as they tried to circumnavigate our collapsed forms!

Seriously, a catastrophic accident occurred at an obstacle course about five or six years ago precisely because a couple of seniors were trying to show their cadets how tough they were, and kept challenging one another to "top this".

One is now a paraplegic.

If you can do it, go for it....but please don;t be making others feel guilty about their physical limitations. Fortunately, the US military already has amazing people in Special Operations Command....which does not include CAP.
We set the example by doing the best we can with what we have.

This applies as well to standing inspections -- seniors should absolutely present themselves in flawlessly correct military OR corporate uniforms.
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flyguy06
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« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2006, 06:04:32 PM »

Flyguy 06, some senior members have no option but to wear the CAP distinctive uniform for a number of reasons.  That doesn't mean that they are not great assets to the program.  As some people age and develop chronic illnesses, they can not control their weight.  If the military let people stay in until 60-70 years old, I don't think they would all be able to pass their physicals.  Our senior members are not required to be in shape to defend our country.  I would rather have some old member with some maturity and 20 years military experience in the blue and gray than some 22 year old with a tight a-s and no experience.  We can't all look like Tom Cruise in a flight suit, but we can still give of our time and efforts to make this country a better place by contributing to the youth and military in our own way.  As usual, JMHO

I agree with you capchiro. Ther eare exceptions. But that member should be making an effot to put him or herself in a position to wear the military style uniform. That in itself goes to self discipline which is what we are trying to teach cadets inthe first place. We should be able to do PT withthe cadets. We should be able to stand inspection with cadets. If my cadets go through an obstacle course, you better believe I will be leading the way.


I wasnt trying to amke anyone feel guilty. Sorry if it came out that way. But you are right and I have always said the two most active groups of people inCAP are teenage cadets and older retired people. CAP needs more young Senior Members to do the things I am talking about. Yes, I am in my mid 30's. I dont run like Iused tobut I still do ok. We need to attract more SM's. I admit though people in my age group are busy with work and family and dont have the time to vlunteer like retired folks do due to our busy lives. I understand that and that is truly a challenege. I dont have the answer to that. Like I said I am in my mid 30's and I am the uoungest SM in my squadron the next youngest in in his 50's
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Psicorp
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« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2006, 10:17:13 PM »

The way I've always understood it, and the way it worked when I was a cadet officer, is that SM's (Officers) provide guidence, support, and leadership training to the cadets, then step back a bit.

If we train our young cadets correctly and build them up, then when they are ready to assume leadership positions, they have the skills and knowledge to lead younger cadets.   

I believe that the Cadet Program belongs to the cadets, they make or break the program after all.   I've seen both extremes:  cadets who get no support from Officers and have to learn the hard way by doing it all on their own, and I've seen cadets who can't exhibit leadership because the Officers are too "involved" and the cadet staff don't have much of a say in anything. There has to be middle ground somewhere, and the maturity and abilities of the cadet staff should determine where that is.

I totally understand the mentality of some Officers who either want to recapture their youth or try to "prove" something to the cadets and to other Officers, but it's unnecessary and it rarily ends well.   


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flyguy06
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« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2006, 12:59:21 AM »

Every situation is different and you are right, it does depend on the maturity of the cadets. I dont think in my situation its so much trying to prove something to cadets. I honestly believe in leading by example. My leaders id it for me and I want to do it for others.

Youare also correct in a lotof units the Senior Members step back and I think thats wrong. What do I vounteer for? I am not a babysitter that goes to meetings and just waits for a cadet to hurtthemselves. I want to be actively involved in training. You never know so much that you cant learn something new I dont care how old you are.

My example is college ROTC. These are young people in their 20's and they have adult leaders that mentor them and lead them and teach them how to be leaders. to me its the same situation.
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ZigZag911
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« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2006, 02:10:13 PM »

My example is college ROTC. These are young people in their 20's and they have adult leaders that mentor them and lead them and teach them how to be leaders. to me its the same situation.

That's an excellent analogy......if we looked to Jr. ROTC (high school program), it would be an even more exact comparison.....the officers formulate policy (sometimes with input from cadets), and guide the cadet leadership in executing the policy, plans, and programs.

Some things need to be handled by the adults (unit finance, transportation)....but wherever cadets can be involved, they should.
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Matt
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Unit: NCR-001

North Central Region
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2006, 10:56:10 PM »

My example is college ROTC. These are young people in their 20's and they have adult leaders that mentor them and lead them and teach them how to be leaders. to me its the same situation.

That's an excellent analogy......
Agreed!

if we looked to Jr. ROTC (high school program), it would be an even more exact comparison.....the officers formulate policy (sometimes with input from cadets), and guide the cadet leadership in executing the policy, plans, and programs.
Not so agreed.  I've encountered a number of JROTC programs that, for lack of a better term -- suck.  The officers (non-babysitting, paid-type) don't actually mentor their cadets outside of the classroom and rarely show true mentoring within the classroom.  Not to say that they aren't good officers (although some aren't), a lot of the instruction and mentoring is more relevantly done by the NCOs (and even sometimes they lack).

Now, please, don't get me wrong, I think that JROTC programs are indeed worthwhile and shouldn't be taken lightly, but they too struggle with a lot of the same problems we have.

The other problem that JROTC programs face is combatting the school boards, but that in and of itself is another topic.

Some things need to be handled by the adults (unit finance, transportation)....but wherever cadets can be involved, they should.
Concurred.
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Matthew Kopp, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
North Central Region
ZigZag911
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« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2006, 07:18:05 PM »

[

if we looked to Jr. ROTC (high school program), it would be an even more exact comparison.....the officers formulate policy (sometimes with input from cadets), and guide the cadet leadership in executing the policy, plans, and programs.
Now, please, don't get me wrong, I think that JROTC programs are indeed worthwhile and shouldn't be taken lightly, but they too struggle with a lot of the same problems we have.
[/quote]

I'll defer to your more immediate knowledge of Jr ROTC programs....my point simply is that the age range of the cadets,and the curriculum, more nearly resemble what we're doing than a program intended to prepare college students for commissioning as officers.
.
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flyguy06
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« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2006, 02:59:02 AM »

I did not refer to JROTC because at least where I come from, JROTC programs are not that serious.
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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Running the cadet program like boot camp.
 


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