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c/LTCOLorbust
Recruit

Posts: 44

« on: September 17, 2006, 12:56:03 AM »

Real quick is there any reg saying cadets must be in uniform during training or can they be out of CAP uniform?
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1Lt. Joshua M. Bergland
Yakima Composite SQ.
WA Wing
MIKE
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« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2006, 01:22:10 AM »

CAPM 39-1 Table 1-1.
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Mike Johnston
caphornbuckle
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Posts: 258

« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2006, 05:51:03 AM »

Honestly, I don't think there's enough detail in your question to answer it properly, however, I will try to help out.

CAPM 39-1 Table 1-1.

This basically states that members involved in the cadet programs must wear the uniform.  In my opinion, this includes Senior Members in a cadet or composite squadron as well.  However, I also believe there can be exceptions that can be made by the squadron commander such as:  A cadet's involvement in extracurricular activities after school is permitting him or her from having enough time for them to go home, change into their uniform, and go to the meeting.

We can also look at the physical fitness part of the squadron where they wear PT clothes instead of their uniforms.

Of course there are always new cadets who don't yet have a uniform and CAPR 52-16 Cadet Program Management Regulation Para 2-6a that states that a cadet "will not wear the CAP uniform until dress and grooming standards are met".  However, it also states that "full compliance is required before Achievement 1 is completed."  It does not state that they can't train during those periods of being out of uniform.

I say it's up to the squadron commander to decide what's acceptable for training at the squadron level.  Anyone else agree or disagree?
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Lt Col Samuel L. Hornbuckle, CAP
MIKE
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« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2006, 03:07:08 PM »

I say it's up to the squadron commander to decide what's acceptable for training at the squadron level.  Anyone else agree or disagree?

Seems clear to me that per Table 1-1., when you are doing CAP stuff, you will be in a CAP uniform with the following exceptions noted:

Quote from: CAPR 52-16
2-6. a. Cadets will not wear the CAP uniform unless they fully comply with CAP dress and grooming standards. Full compliance is required before Achievement 1 is completed.

Quote from: CAPP 52-18
You may want to have your cadets train and test in appropriate attire, such as shorts, a t-shirt, and sneakers.
Cadets do not have to exercise in a CAP uniform. Still, commanders should not require cadets to purchase
special gear simply to participate in the program.

Key points:

Quote from: CAPM 39-1 Table 1-1.
participating in or conducting the cadet program

Quote from: CAPM 39-1 Table 1-1.
when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local,
wing/region, or national CAP functions (see note 1).

Both of these state that the uniform is worn, i.e. is not optional.

Quote from: CAPR 52-16
1-3. c. 2) The proper wear of the uniform is outlined in CAPM 39-1, CAP Uniform Manual. Cadets will wear the
uniform properly as part of their leadership training.

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Mike Johnston
c/LTCOLorbust
Recruit

Posts: 44

« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2006, 05:33:10 PM »

Thank you, What you have given me is what I need. Thank you very much.
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1Lt. Joshua M. Bergland
Yakima Composite SQ.
WA Wing
caphornbuckle
Seasoned Member

Posts: 258

« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2006, 02:35:23 AM »

Yes, thank you, sir.
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Lt Col Samuel L. Hornbuckle, CAP
c/LTCOLorbust
Recruit

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« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2006, 05:07:35 AM »

If I may ask one more, but more out side of training. Now can a CAP member on a ground team or ES team on a mission be out of uniform... I don't mean like in jeans a a T-shirt, but wearing field gear and not their CAP uniform as they are a part of a ground team... Or must they be in uniform. I have some cadets that seam to think other wise, "Because the BDU uniform is mostly made out cotton"   ???
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1Lt. Joshua M. Bergland
Yakima Composite SQ.
WA Wing
SarDragon
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« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2006, 07:38:09 AM »

And what's cotton got to do with the situation? IMHO, cotton is very comfortable, any time of the year.

As for being in uniform, we're back to "participating in or conducting the cadet program", and "when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions". It seems to me that being on a ground team fits one or the other of those quotes.

Further, while not considered regulatory by some, the following items from the National web site in the Operations Training section also address the issue:

Ground Team Equipment Slides

Standard Uniform (BDUs or equivalent)
May be altered to meet safety needs (within reason)
Remember that we are the non-combatant auxiliary of the USAF doing a mission in the publicís eyes

Ground & Urban DF Team Task Guides

Task O-0001
2. The gear list below is the minimum required equipment. Items required of trainees are marked with a ďT."
You may carry additional equipment subject to team leader approval and your ability to secure and carry it -- remember, you may have to walk a long way carrying it all.
a. 24 hour pack
1) On your person:
a) Complete BDU uniform with BDU cap. The BDU cap may be replaced by a hard hat
or bright colored cap based on mission needs.

So, bottom line, National has been pretty specific about it.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
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shorning
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« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2006, 09:03:03 AM »

And what's cotton got to do with the situation? IMHO, cotton is very comfortable, any time of the year.

Except when you get wet in the middle of winter.  I know of search teams that won't let you wear cotton in the field.  sure, these are non-CAP teams, but it's a consideration.  Personally, I don't buy that arguement for CAP.  sure it's a consideration, but in cold, wet weather, there are other things you can do to keep yourself dry and warm.  After all, our military has been wearing that same uniform in the field for years doing much more that CAP.
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Chris Jacobs
Seasoned Member

Posts: 302

« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2006, 02:36:42 PM »

I kinda wish national would give a little bit of slack in the regulation when it comes to ground teams.  The local non-CAP search team here does not allow you to wear cotton at any time during the wet and cold season (October to around April).  And on top of that the boots that go with the BDU's don't do much to keep the cold of the snow out.  If we were ever to have a serious ground team here in Oregon this issue would have to be addressed because most of the lost people will be found in several feet of snow on any one of the big mountains.

As far as at general meetings i think the cadets should be able to wear their uniform even if all of the standards are not met.  It is hard to get a cadet to have every little detail about his uniform correct on the first try.  And by the regulations if a cadets uniform is not up to regs then they can't participate.  But if they don't participate then they will not learn and their uniform can't get up to regs.  Although the only place that i would be relaxed on this would be out of the public eye and at a meeting.
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C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron
arajca
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Posts: 4,391

« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2006, 02:57:42 PM »

A couple of points here:
1. Using black 8" (or taller) insulated winter boots addresses the issue of cold weather foot wear.

2.While bdu's/bbdu's may be cotton, the regs allow you to wear whatever thermal undergarments you like - regardless of color, even if it shows at the neck.

3. Uniforms classes exist for a reason. Inspections exist for a reason. Use them to ensure your cadets wear the uniform properly. Yes, new cadets will usually make some mistakes when assembling their uniforms. Fine. Correct them so they don't make the same mistake again. The issue about wearing the uniform properly isn't so much about the .01" the grade insignia is off than it is about wearing white sneakers with the service uniform.

4. If you want changes to the uniforms, write a proposal - with justifications -  and submit it through your chain of command. If you never submit your ideas, there is little to no chance they will be acted upon.
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Pylon
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Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2006, 03:03:01 PM »

As far as at general meetings i think the cadets should be able to wear their uniform even if all of the standards are not met.  It is hard to get a cadet to have every little detail about his uniform correct on the first try.  And by the regulations if a cadets uniform is not up to regs then they can't participate.  But if they don't participate then they will not learn and their uniform can't get up to regs.  Although the only place that i would be relaxed on this would be out of the public eye and at a meeting.

It's a failure of the cadet's leadership (both their cadet and senior leadership) if the cadet can't get the "uniform correct on the first try."  When a cadet is new to the program, he or she is dependent on the guidance of their leaders for "every little detail" because they can't possibly be expected to know it all at first.

When a new cadet arrives in our squadron, they write a check to the squadron for about $32, which we use in turn to purchase all of their non-FCU-provided uniform items.  BDUs and boots we issue from squadron stock, and we order the subdued-buckle belt, BDU cap, and all the necessary patches, nametapes, nametags, and insignia.   The cadet is given guidance on where to put it all.

In addition, I have generic "CADET" blues nameplates on hand, both for new cadets and for when seasoned cadets break or lose theirs.  From squadron stock, I can put a new cadet in complete proper uniform the night they sign their papers if I need to.   When they receive their FCU and ordered insignia, they can turn in the squadron stock for the next new cadet's use.

A set of cutouts and a nameplate are not difficult things to get right.  There's very little you can screw up about a new cadet's uniform.   They're not measuring distance between a ribbon rack and wings, nor figuring out how to center their pocket rocket, nor wondering where to place the silver star on the ribbons for COS.  It's pretty straightforward as a new cadet.

And when you see something out of place, such as they're not keeping their "gig line" straight, or they're not wearing black socks, you just correct it there on the spot.  Shouldn't take more than a meeting or two to get the whole thing down pat.

So, sorry, can't agree with you there.
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
MIKE
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« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2006, 06:47:52 PM »

I'll advocate for the wool blend black socks.  I wear them year round. Around here wearing cotton crew socks can be bad news in the field, have seen the result a number of times... Wear issue socks and change them out when they get wet, your feet will thank you.
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Mike Johnston
capchiro
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Posts: 579

« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2006, 09:34:16 PM »

Pylon, while  I appreciate your zest and zeal, and you wanting your cadets to be in alignment with the program, I find fault with your idea of having the cadets give you $32.00 for uniform supplies in violation of CAP regulations.  You are not allowed to require cadets to wear any uniform other than the Air Force suppied blue one unless it is voluntary or free.  $32.00 isn't free.  The other problem with your program is with the new Virginia Banking program coming down the pike, you will not be in line with the regulation if you run the financing through your squadron without running it through the Wing...Again, some things are good in theory, but not within regulations.  By the way, it would be nice if all squadrons had BDU's and boots to issue cadets, but that is not the case.  JMHO
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Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154
MIKE
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« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2006, 10:39:27 PM »

You are not allowed to require cadets to wear any uniform other than the Air Force suppied blue one unless it is voluntary or free.  $32.00 isn't free.

Cadets are required to maintain the minimum basic service uniform... This includes the required insignia.  If you don't get a CUP/FCU issue, you have to buy it/obtain it somehow... And if you get a CUP/FCU uniform, you have to buy the stuff the USAF doesn't provide.

That's what the minimum is all about.  You're basically saying that if cadets don't get a free uniform, they don't have to wear one... which is false.

Quote from: CAPM 39-1
1-5. Uniform Combinations. Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow
for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to equip
himself/herself with all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication. Members
will equip themselves with the basic uniform. The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets
and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below. Members may obtain and wear
the additional uniform items authorized in this publication on an optional basis. Uniform clothing may
be altered to improve fit. However, alterations must not change the intended appearance of garment as
designed. It is the memberís personal responsibility to equip himself/herself with a proper uniform.
Commanders may assist if they have the capability, through use of unit funds and/or donations or by
acquiring surplus uniforms. Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform. A commander
may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the
uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet. The omission of a specific item or appearance standard
does not automatically permit its wear.
a. Minimum Basic Service Uniform. Male: Short-sleeve, light blue shirt; dark blue trousers; blue
belt/silver buckle, blue flight cap; black shoes, and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch,
collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem. Female: Short-sleeve light
blue blouse; Dark blue skirt or slacks; flight cap; neutral nylon hose; black shoes; black handbag.
Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight
cap emblem.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 11:43:14 PM by MIKE » Report to moderator   Logged
Mike Johnston
capchiro
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Posts: 579

« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2006, 02:20:16 PM »

While I will agree with you about maintaining a basic uniform, that does not include requiring cadets to buy BDU hats, subdued belt buckle, or any other item required for the BDU uniform.  Therefore, if you want cadets to wear the BDU uniform, or any other uniform, other than the basic blue, it must be voluntarily purchased and worn and not "required", or provided in full for free.  This is a problem in the Regulations and needs to be addressed as it is violated more than it is followed.  The arbitrary adherence to Regulations leads to a poor example to our cadets and very possible liability in a host of possible law suits.  As you may be aware, our insurance doesn't cover us if an aircraft accident happens and all involved are not in uniform.  If a cadet has been required to purchase BDU's and is flying in them and something bad happens, CAP may be in violation of it's own regulations and the insurance will refuse to pay for damages, deaths, etc.  It may be hard to believe, but I was a cadet and participated fully in the cadet program and encampment with only khaki uniforms and PT clothing.  As the cadet program has migrated towards emergency services (which is not a  requirement of the cadet program), certain persons have decided that BDU's are a part of the cadet program.  It doesn't have to be so,  all cadet requirements may be completed with only the basic uniform and PT clothing.  What I am suggesting, is if some believe strong enough that BDU's should be required that they get involved in getting the Regulations changed to reflect their opinions.  However, until that is done,  the Regulations are the Regulations and should be followed.  JMHO
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Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154
Pylon
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Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2006, 05:22:35 PM »

Pylon, while  I appreciate your zest and zeal, and you wanting your cadets to be in alignment with the program, I find fault with your idea of having the cadets give you $32.00 for uniform supplies in violation of CAP regulations.  You are not allowed to require cadets to wear any uniform other than the Air Force suppied blue one unless it is voluntary or free.  $32.00 isn't free.  The other problem with your program is with the new Virginia Banking program coming down the pike, you will not be in line with the regulation if you run the financing through your squadron without running it through the Wing...Again, some things are good in theory, but not within regulations.  By the way, it would be nice if all squadrons had BDU's and boots to issue cadets, but that is not the case.  JMHO

You already contradicted yourself with your own reasonings.  If the cadet isn't required to wear anything other than what's supplied for free, who's going to fork over the free cadet flight cap device, free CAP cutouts, and free nameplate so they can actually wear the FCU uniform in accordance with the other CAP regulations on the matter?    Doesn't seem Vanguard is going to.  Are you going to foot the bill?

What about cadets who don't already own a pair of plain-toe dress shoes or boots, and don't come from a squadron with them in supply to issue to their new cadets?  Who's going to provide that for free as well?

Should the squadron foot the bill and leak money like a seive for every new member that joins?  Or should the cadet point to those regulations and say "Sir, I'm only required to wear what's provided for free, so I'm going to keep wearing these blues with no insignia on them and no footwear!"?   Or maybe the commander should fork it out of their own pocket, like they seem to have to do with everything else this organization neglects to provide?

You can't adhere to the regulation that cadets can only be required to wear what they've been provided for free, when CAP makes no provisions, arrangements, funding, nor suggestions to provide any complete uniform for free.  To add to that, other regulations require the cadet to progress in the program.  In order to progress, and particularly to complete their Curry Achievement, they need to have a complete uniform.  If they fail to progress twice in a year, they become eligible to be terminated from the program.   

Additionally, if a cadet passes achievements to stay in the program, they're required by CAP to wear their earned grade.  Who's providing grade insignia for free?  Should every squadron take a loss on insignia as each cadet moves up the ranks because CAP regulated everyone into a corner again?


Second, I'm not too worried about the "Virginia Bank Mis-Solution" coming down the pike.  It doesn't look like New York Wing is going to be an early adopter; it never is.  You can call the $32 a squadron dues fee, then, in which case it's legit.  Does it really matter?  What we're trying to do is save the new cadet (and undoubtedly the parents in most cases) the confusing task of venturing out into the World Wide Web of CAP vendors to purchase the insignia and supplies they need, and wonder if they bought the right stuff or ordered it properly.

Heck, here's a solution for ya!  If they need to optionally give the $32 to individual citizen Mike Kieloch, who goes out and puts all the cadet orders on his individual, personally-paid credit card, because that's what good leaders do when their organization tries to screw them eight ways to Sunday, then sure, I'll do that. 

We do have BDUs and boots to issue new cadets.  That's provided for free, from the squadron.  That's a uniform, just like the FCU.  Comes free, but with no insignia.  I don't see any difference between the two.  Heck, our squadron is going further -- we're even giving the cadet the required footwear, too!  Both our squadron and the FCU program issue a cadet the clothing items without the requisite insignia to be able to wear it legitimately.   You tell me what the difference is.

 :P
« Last Edit: September 19, 2006, 05:35:48 PM by Pylon » Report to moderator   Logged
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
MIKE
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« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2006, 06:00:48 PM »

It's called Come And Pay for a reason... If you are not willing to pay, you aren't going to play... to the same extent as a member who is.
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Mike Johnston
capchiro
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Posts: 579

« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2006, 08:33:47 PM »

Pylon, I totally agree with you.  The thing that distresses me is that we (leadership) are supposed to live by the Reg's and the Reg's are wrong.  This places us in a precarious position.  I was able to change the requirements for Medical Officer, after 10 years of waiting (I don't sound frustrated or anything do I?).  I also was recently told that our group would be one of the first in our wing to have the lovely Virginia Banking shoved down our throat.  This is only going to quadruple the paper work that is already required to run a squadron.  In our wing, there are in excess of 80-90 reports due from each squadron each year.  Well, with a smaller squadron, guess who is the one that does most of the work.. Yep, the squadron commander.. and don't talk delegation, because who is also the most consistent in attendance and training?  Yep, the old squadron commander..Maybe I digress, maybe I don't..  Anyhow, there needs to be a simpler way to get stuff back up the chain of command other than writing new regulations and submitting it through 15 different chains of command and waiting for something to be done.  If something is common sense, such as the requirements for other cadet uniforms, a telephone call to National to point out the situation should be enough to get them working on it.. But no.. Anyway, I agree with you and, as you can see, I am not happy with everything going on at National, Wing, Group (take your pick).. JMHO
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Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154
Pylon
Administrator

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Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2006, 09:00:01 PM »

Pylon, I totally agree with you.  The thing that distresses me is that we (leadership) are supposed to live by the Reg's and the Reg's are wrong.  This places us in a precarious position.  I was able to change the requirements for Medical Officer, after 10 years of waiting (I don't sound frustrated or anything do I?).  I also was recently told that our group would be one of the first in our wing to have the lovely Virginia Banking shoved down our throat.  This is only going to quadruple the paper work that is already required to run a squadron.  In our wing, there are in excess of 80-90 reports due from each squadron each year.  Well, with a smaller squadron, guess who is the one that does most of the work.. Yep, the squadron commander.. and don't talk delegation, because who is also the most consistent in attendance and training?  Yep, the old squadron commander..Maybe I digress, maybe I don't..  Anyhow, there needs to be a simpler way to get stuff back up the chain of command other than writing new regulations and submitting it through 15 different chains of command and waiting for something to be done.  If something is common sense, such as the requirements for other cadet uniforms, a telephone call to National to point out the situation should be enough to get them working on it.. But no.. Anyway, I agree with you and, as you can see, I am not happy with everything going on at National, Wing, Group (take your pick).. JMHO

Glad to see we're on the same side of the coin here.  I agree, also, that plenty of these regulations are out-dated.

They really need to take on the immediate project of updating the regulations across the board.  Many of the regulations are still stipulating paper-based procedures which have since been replaced by email or other electronic means in the real world of CAP operations.  Another problem are regulations that are out of date, but have a littany of letters from the national commander to append to them to "change" certain things.  That's nice, but now everytime you read the regulation, you have to get your answer and then go read all the added letters to make sure it hasn't been subsequently changed.

I could see a CAP-wide project of taking suggestions for improvement of the regulations, along with including updates to things CAP and NHQ have just done (without actually changing anything), and integrating all of the letters of addendum since the last edition.

It certainly would go a long way to clearing up all of the contradicting regulations, poorly written regulations, out-of-date regulations, and just plain impractical regulations.

But alas... it is only a dream.....
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
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