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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: 12 Year Old C/CC
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Schmidty06
Guest
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2005, 11:43:19 PM »

So in order to improve the cadet program, we have to fix the whole machine, right?  What we could do is have Senior Member encampments, SM training weekends, and the like.  I probably wouldn't start off at the top for this.  Instead, I would try it out at wing level and see how it works out.
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whatevah
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« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2005, 11:56:03 PM »

the problem with having senior training things longer than a day or weekend, is that most of the seniors work year-round, and don't feel like giving up their hard earned vacation time. :)
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Jerry Horn
CAPTalk Co-Admin
Schmidty06
Guest
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2005, 01:05:45 AM »

So, we'd have to make it super-duper and what not, right?
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arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,339

« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2005, 01:41:05 AM »

Here's a crazy idea---

A two day "This is how the CAP cadet program runs" course. Not a diluted "leadership" class, not a "This is how you run a squadron with cadets in it" class, not a "This is how to teach cadets" class, but a two-day, dedicated cadet programs course covering the details of the program, how to evaluate a cadet's preparedness for the next grade, how to recognize simple problems, etc.

Schedule it every three to four times yearly and make it a requirement for all CC (except senior squadron CC's), CDC, CP staff at all levels, and CP rating. Senior squadron CC's are exempted because they don't run a cadet program.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2005, 01:58:04 AM »

I see some pretty good ideas for senior training that bring to mind my perennial question - who's going to pay for it? I eagerly await well thought out, realistic answers.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
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Pylon
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Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2005, 03:30:25 AM »

To slow down each phase, you could require Airman and NCO leadership schools in addition to encampments.  I'd say that requiring attending one Airman Leadership School before being promoted to C/SSgt wouldn't be asking for too much.  Also, attending at least two NCO Leadership Schools before being able to promote to C/2d Lt wouldn't be asking for too much either.  Wings could plan such schools every 3-6 months.  How's that idea?

Show me the money.
It is a good idea, but if classes aren't available frequently (2-3 per year is a MINIMUM for EACH), you end up having cadets being stopped due to the failure of higher echelons over which they have no control. Cadets would most likely quit. If cadets aren't promoting because they don't study, or don't take the right tests, it becomes their problem because the thing holding them back is themselves.

WIWAC, cadets had to know which test they needed to take. If you passed the Wright Bros. test six times because you didn't take the time to check which test you needed, well tough luck. Now, I see cadets and hear about them going up to the testing officer and expecting the TO to give them the test they need, even if they have no idea which one it is.

What about an "If offered" clause?
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

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« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2005, 03:49:30 AM »

The problem with "If offered" is you create a disparity in training and education.

Say ABC wing offers these classes regularly, every three months, they hold an ALS, BNCOA, and ANCOA. Cadets are required to attend these because they are offered.
XYZ wing doesn't offer them. Cadets in XYZ wing get the same promotions with substantially less work on the cadets' parts. You'd end up with cadets of the same grade with HUGE differences in ability and training that can be directly attributed to the way the wing runs the "If offered" classes. There are already differences based on everyone being (slightly) different, but this scenario increases that innate variable.
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Greg
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Posts: 129

« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2005, 04:40:07 AM »

Here's a crazy idea---

A two day "This is how the CAP cadet program runs" course. Not a diluted "leadership" class, not a "This is how you run a squadron with cadets in it" class, not a "This is how to teach cadets" class, but a two-day, dedicated cadet programs course covering the details of the program, how to evaluate a cadet's preparedness for the next grade, how to recognize simple problems, etc.

Schedule it every three to four times yearly and make it a requirement for all CC (except senior squadron CC's), CDC, CP staff at all levels, and CP rating. Senior squadron CC's are exempted because they don't run a cadet program.

Now THAT is an idea to develop!
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C/Maj Greg(ory) Boyajian, CAP
Air Victory Museum Composite Squadron
Pylon
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Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2005, 05:02:56 AM »

I already run "This is how Cadet Programs works" weekend courses in our Group.  I call it the "Cadet Programs Colloquium" and it runs one day (usually a Saturday) at our Group HQ.  We have access to full classroom facilities because our ANG base is extremely gracious and works very closely with us; we can use most of their facilities anytime.
 
So far we've had two sessions and all Senior Members who work with Cadets and senior Cadets are invited to attend.  They involve two-way lecture and discussion of the Cadet Program at the squadron level and how it is supposed to work.  I lecture on the couple of topics selected for that session, and session members are encouraged to ask questions at any point.  In addition, time is set aside to engage in discussions about how those particular areas of CP play out in their units, what problems or confusion they experience, and we have open-group discussion on ways to solve those issues.
 
The first major session was in late January, and I'd like to have one this March.  The first major session covered several topics: Defining Cadet programs, The role of the Senior Member in CP, Cadet Uniforms (requirements, ribbons, resources, and other information).  A lot of misconceptions and misunderstandings were cleared up with that topic.  In addition, we discussed Promotion Boards, Form 50s, and some other miscellaneous topics.
 
Topics that were requested for the future and that I'll be adding to the series include "File Management - requried items & procedures, good techniques and advice, and working on a sample 'ideal' cadet file" as well as a number of other topics.  Feedback from participants was very enthusiastic, every one of the attendees said they want to keep coming back, though they wanted less lecture and more discussion than we had previously.
 
The cost to run the sessions is nothing.  We have the classroom facilities, and I paid out-of-pocket for the xerox copies of info, sign-ins, and feedback sheets.  I also recommend bringing a pile of looseleaf paper and pens for those who forget notepads.

I'd recommend this format for other Groups, or even squadrons, to educate and help 'clean up' the operation of your cadet programs.  Better educated members implementing the program means a better program for the cadets.   The key is to make these things people want to attend, such as we have here in CNY, rather than mandantory snooze sessions that people will later grumble about having to go to.  For those interested, I'd be happy to send along the agendas for the programs, the PowerPoints I used to teach the sessions, and the other sheets and info I have for the Cadet Programs Colloquiums.  :)
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
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« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2005, 03:15:11 PM »

I met this LT. at encampment last year. He is very mature for his age. He took the encampment photos, he could capture things that no one else could get. Just they way he took the pictures was cool. He joined under the old program(no age restriction, just have to be 6th grade) and advanced through the ranks very fast. The new program does have an age restriction of 12 and up.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2005, 01:52:28 AM by whatevah » Logged
c/CMSgt. Daniel Rufener
NER-PA-310
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Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
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If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid. -Murphy's laws
whatevah
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« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2005, 01:53:42 AM »

He took the encampment photos, he could capture things that no one else could get. Just they way he took the pictures was cool.
Why could nobody else get them, was he really tall or something?

The photographer in me is curious. ;)
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Jerry Horn
CAPTalk Co-Admin
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« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2005, 01:19:36 PM »

No, he was short. but he just knew when to take the photos, the ones that you only get one chance to take.
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c/CMSgt. Daniel Rufener
NER-PA-310
Honor Guard Commander
Raven Honor Guard

Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
A clean (and dry) set of BDU's is a magnet for mud and rain.
If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid. -Murphy's laws
HGCdt
Recruit

Posts: 6

« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2005, 01:40:02 AM »

No, he was short. but he just knew when to take the photos, the ones that you only get one chance to take.

No, he didn't, and wasn't.

 Infact, none of the pictures ever made it into the basic's hands to ever see.
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Civil Air Patrol Honor Guard
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footballrun21
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Posts: 121

« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2005, 07:12:33 PM »

Quote
Honestly, after I'm done being C/CC there's so much more that I want to do in the program I don't think I'll be able to get it done before I'm 21.  Drawing on my experiences, I want to help the C/CC in planning activities and training staff.  I have plans to help reinvigorate the CAC, and just generally help make our squadron better.


Does this mean that your sqadron has a time frame that you can be C/CC?
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C/2d Lt. Stephen Pettit, CAP
New Jersey Wing
MIKE
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« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2005, 08:04:48 PM »

Quote
Honestly, after I'm done being C/CC there's so much more that I want to do in the program I don't think I'll be able to get it done before I'm 21.  Drawing on my experiences, I want to help the C/CC in planning activities and training staff.  I have plans to help reinvigorate the CAC, and just generally help make our squadron better.


Does this mean that your sqadron has a time frame that you can be C/CC?

IIRC Cadet Fenner's squadron does have term limits for line and staff positions.
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Mike Johnston
dwb
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« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2005, 12:29:55 AM »

IIRC Cadet Fenner's squadron does have term limits for line and staff positions.

Not really.  When I was Commander (and deputy for cadets before that), I always told my cadet commanders that I wasn't bound to the one year rule.  If it makes sense for a C/CC to serve for 12, 18, or even 24 months, it's what we'll do.

All four of my C/CCs chose on their own to transition after roughly a year.  Now that I think about it, in every case, it was because of college and/or military commitments.

Fenner basically set his own timetable for transition.
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capchiro
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Posts: 577

« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2005, 10:35:54 PM »

IIRC, there was a 13 year old who recently completed the Spaatz award and made Cadet Colonel....MUst have joined under the old rule of no age requirement, but in 6th grade.  This was in the Georgia Wing and announced at last years Wing Conference.  I thought the time in grade requirements were roughly 42 months or something??? Just for what it's worth...
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Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154
BillB
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Posts: 1,987

« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2005, 11:36:06 AM »

One of the complaints when the "new" cadet program was put in place in the 60's was the tyeing of rank to completions of achievements.  It removed the Commanders ability to make promotions or demotions based on ability, not just passing a test. The lack of flexibility in the cadet grade system would allow VERY young cadets to hold rank beyond their maturity level or ability. The inability of a commander to provide cadet rank based on experience, ability, maturity and duty assignment within the unit, has over the long term been shown to be disadvantageous to the operation of a cadet unit. When you can have 13 year old Cadet Majors, telling a 17 year old cadet to do something, it is often reflected in retention rates of the unit when the older cadet resents the "kids" in authority and they drop from the program.
This is also reflected at encampments. Originally encampments were an equalizer, all cadets removed home squadron rank during the activity. It made no difference if you were a C/CMSgt or C/basic, you were equal unless you had attended an encampment and were on staff. Even staff position rank was based on the duty assignment, the higher the duty, the higher the rank assigned by the Encampment Commander. The majority of cadets attend their first encampment during the first year of membership. Thus it was possible to have a 12 year old 1st Sgt at an encampment. This discouraged the 15-16 year olds that just joined CAP . But I see no changes coming in the cadet program to modify the errors or problems created. Even though the National CAC has made several dations for changes, National HQ ignores the recommendations.
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Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104
capchiro
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 577

« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2005, 01:31:00 PM »

Actually, that is incorrect.  According to CAPR 52-16, 2-4 (a.) a new cadet grade is earned when the cadet completes each achievement and the squadron commander or deputy commander for cadets signs the CAPF 52-1, 52-1, 52-3, or 52-4.  The next sentence states "When the squadron commander or deputy commander for cadets signs a cadet's CAPF 52, they are attesting to the cadet's ability to assume the next grade.  By promoting a cadet, the squadron commander is recognizing that the individual is capable of accepting increased responsibility."  This places the final authority for cadet promotions on the squadron commander or deputy commander for cadets (who serves at the pleasure of the commander).  If a cadet is not ready for promotion, he shouldn't be promoted.  This is furhter reinforced in CAPR 52-16 2-4 (e.)  Commanders should retain a cadet in grade if the cadet's performance or maturity does not demonstrate an ability to accept increased responsibility commensurate with the promotion...Further under CAPR 52-16 1-2 (b.)...Unit commanders may keep cadet command and staff positions vacant until such times as cadets obtain appropriate grades and maturity.  I think the key word here is maturity.  It would appear that the regulations provide a lot of authority for a commander to decide who gets promoted and who doesn't and who is staff and who isn't.  It shouldn't be automatic...  I also agree that all cadets should remove all rank for encampment and staff should wear appropriate rank to their assigned positions...It only makes sense and that is how it is done at all of the OCS, OTS, military training programs I have seen...       
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Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154
Matt
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Posts: 469
Unit: NCR-001

North Central Region
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2005, 01:45:31 PM »

...It only makes sense...       

Yep, and that's probably why it isn't done anymore...  It made too much sense.
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Matthew Kopp, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
North Central Region
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