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Schmidty06
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« on: March 01, 2005, 01:22:34 AM »

In the March issue of CAP News in the Highlights section, there is a blurb on a cadet in Ohio who is 12 years old, a C/CC, and a C/1st Lt.  After reading this story and finding out about his track record as a cadet (all in the story, if you read it).  Something definately doesn't seem right about this.  Nothing against him, since it seems like he is pretty squared away, but this is one of the reason that there should, perhaps be some age restrictions on cadet ranks. 
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Pylon
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Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2005, 01:53:19 AM »

I respectfully disagree.
 
I think that everyone develops differently.  There are 12 year olds who are much more mature than some 18 year olds I know.

Each promotion is not just a checklist, contrary to popular belief.  The squadron commander or deputy commander for cadets must attest to the fact that the cadet is ready for that promotion.  If the cadet is very young and just not ready for that grade, then the CC or DCC should not promote him or her.  That is why the requirement of approval is part of the things needed to get promoted.  It is specifically meant to restrict cadets who are immature, unready, or just generally not suited for higher grade and responsibility.  Putting age restrictions on cadet grades is unfair to cadets who may be younger but are more prepared and able than their older counterparts.
 
Obviously, this 12-year-old is squared away enough that his or her CC deemed them ready to accept the responsibility of their grade.  To question whether or not they are in fact capable is to also question the discretion and judgement of the cadet's squadron commander or DCC.
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
Horn229
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« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2005, 02:20:05 AM »

Well, even if the cadet is mature enough to handle the position, I think he's being cheated out of a true Cadet Career. If he's 12 and a C/1st Lt, he may not be able to get any good leadership position at Encampment simply for the fact that he's 12. Also, if he continues to promote at such a young age, when Encampment comes around, his grade will be to high for the position.

I really think his Commander is hurting his cadet career, 'cause he'll probably be done the protions by the time he's 14, he'll have at least 4 years to sit around and do nothing. He'll have finished the promotions, held the highest cadet position within the squadron, he's got nothing to do but sit around.
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NICHOLAS A. HORN, Senior Member, CAP
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« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2005, 02:35:31 AM »

Obviously, this 12-year-old is squared away enough that his or her CC deemed them ready to accept the responsibility of their grade.  To question whether or not they are in fact capable is to also question the discretion and judgement of the cadet's squadron commander or DCC.
or, the Squadron Commander is of the "boy scout" mentality and paper-whips all promotions, and lets some things slide to ensure that everybody is promoted as often as possible. And has the Cadet Commander position simply because he has the highest grade out of the 10 cadets in the unit.  I've seen cadets go from C/AB to C/A1C in one night, while wearing an uncomplete (and sloppy) Blues uniform.

But, without knowing more about the cadet and unit, we have to assume that he's ready for the grade and position.
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Jerry Horn
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« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2005, 02:47:26 AM »

The squadron commander or deputy commander for cadets must attest to the fact that the cadet is ready for that promotion.  If the cadet is very young and just not ready for that grade, then the CC or DCC should not promote him or her.  That is why the requirement of approval is part of the things needed to get promoted.  It is specifically meant to restrict cadets who are immature, unready, or just generally not suited for higher grade and responsibility.  Putting age restrictions on cadet grades is unfair to cadets who may be younger but are more prepared and able than their older counterparts.

Emphasis added.

But it doesn't because it is entirely dependent on what the CC or CDC define as acceptable within one specific unit and in no way reflects any kind of "standard" for each achievement signed off on.

IMO... The Cadet promotion process is far too compartmentalized... Commanders determine at will what they see as acceptable with little to direction from higher headquarters.  Why not standardize some training for Commanders and CDC's on what they should be looking for when they promote a cadet?  As it is now commanders can and do promote cadets once all the boxes are checked.

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Mike Johnston
Schmidty06
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« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2005, 04:35:34 AM »

I suggest reading the article for some clarification.  What I noticed is that he's 12 as of the time of print, but he was in the Honor Flight in OHWG's encampment... held in 2003.  As far as I know, someone has to be 12 to join CAP, or currently attending the 6th grade, right?  Numbers wise, this doesn't quite seem right to me and that there should be a more strictly enforced bottom line age wise.  Also, since there are the pencil-whipping commanders out there, we need to find a more stringent means of making sure that each cadet gets a full, meaningful cadet experience instead of rocketing straight to the top.
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whatevah
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« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2005, 04:38:48 AM »

A couple years ago, there used to be a loophole that removed the minimum age. It simply listed "in 6th Grade" as the requirement.  The kid is probably a homeschooler.  A lot of homeschooled kids are way ahead of regular-schooled kids.  At one point, I know there was a 10 year old cadet somewhere in the organization.

NHQ (thankfully) added 12 years old back into the regs not too long ago. About a year ago, maybe?
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Jerry Horn
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Schmidty06
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« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2005, 06:03:51 AM »

Hmmm, ok.  The massive list of things made my head spin.
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Pylon
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Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2005, 06:37:53 AM »

So what it appears then, is that we have a system that could work already in place, however it's not being used by some and not properly by others.
 
Why do some commanders simply let everyone who checks off the requirements have the promotion?  Is there a mentality of deservedness that a cadet who checks off the requirements ought to therefore be ready?   
 
Is it more of a problem with our curriculum and requirements for achievements?  If a cadet who is clearly not ready at that level can still pass the requirements, are the requirements not right for the achievement?  Are we even properly challenging our cadets?
 
Or is it more a problem with commander training and understanding of the Cadet Program?  With more understanding of how they should be evaluating cadets and granting promotions only when deserved, do you think Squadron Commanders could change this problem and better administrate cadet progression as appropriate for each cadet?
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
whatevah
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« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2005, 06:57:01 AM »

I think that the written curriculm is fine. The problem is in the human side, with no standardized seniors training.  Yes, theoretically, Level 1 is supposed to be standardized, but you know some people spend more time on some topics and breeze right through others they don't think are important.

One squadron I know, 3 years ago was one of the best in its wing. The commander had been trained by a very good commander who loved the program, and passed on that zeal to the new commander. That commander had the priviledge of working with cadet staff who had been trained by professional cadet officers who also cared about the program.  The staff also had a recently-retired AF Colonel with a son in the unit, and he helped out wherever possible, and added another degree of professionalism.  Together, they worked to meet self-set goals for the unit, in addition to the requirements set by regulations.  Cadets went before promotion boards for every achievement, and they got harder as the grade increased. Some cadets going for senior NCO grades didn't pass the first time, and it was explained to them why they weren't being promoted that month.  The unit was active, held planning meetings every quarter, and scheduled frequent activities in addition to interesting classes during weekly meetings.

However, some time passed, and the current unit commander had to move to wing staff. The new unit commander couldn't stay long, and allowed himself to be overun by a couple seniors with their own agenda (they'd approached the previous commander and cadet staff but had been ignored before).  That commander turned it over to a recently rejoined member with prior unit command experience (15 years prior) who was expected to be a good commander.  Sadly, this commander didn't follow regulations, and things turned downhill.  Now, two years later, the unit is the worst in the wing, and has little professionalism, no real schedule or structure to the meetings, and as a whole, isn't very active.  Why?  Because, one commander didn't care about doing things the right way, and had control of the unit long enough to put it into a downward spiral.  None of the current members have been shown the right way to do things, so they're doing the only things they know.

I think a lot of squadrons across the country have a similar story. And, the only way to fix it is by having senior staff who really care about the program.  This is a volunteer organization, so we don't have enough people to provide proper oversight.
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Jerry Horn
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Greg
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« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2005, 02:49:33 PM »

I disagree with age limitations, but this guy has GOT to be violating TIG requirements.  Anybody else notice the article was written by his mom?
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C/Maj Greg(ory) Boyajian, CAP
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« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2005, 03:04:10 PM »

looking at the article for myself, he attended an encampment in 2003. I don't see any mention of school honors, so he's probably a homeschooler. :)
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Jerry Horn
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Greg
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« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2005, 03:21:55 PM »

looking at the article for myself, he attended an encampment in 2003. I don't see any mention of school honors, so he's probably a homeschooler. :)

Yeah, probably.  I personally don't like it when homeschoolers pull the whole "I'm so smart, i'm only five and in college!" thing  ::).  Yeah i know, major sarcasm, but you get my drift.  Trust me, I'm homeschooled myself- each and every homeschooler is different.  Many of them are mature beyond their years.  However, many of them also sit home playing videogames all day.
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C/Maj Greg(ory) Boyajian, CAP
Air Victory Museum Composite Squadron
Schmidty06
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« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2005, 11:00:11 PM »

Is there a way that we can make the program more challenging, or will that just make people angry?  Honestly, if we can't up the anty with PT, how do we expect to make the achievements any harder than they are?  What it could come down to is, "We're raising the bar, it's our organization, and if you don't like it, there's the door."  But I don't think that many people woud take very kindly to it.
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Greg
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« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2005, 11:02:22 PM »

Is there a way that we can make the program more challenging, or will that just make people angry?  Honestly, if we can't up the anty with PT, how do we expect to make the achievements any harder than they are?  What it could come down to is, "We're raising the bar, it's our organization, and if you don't like it, there's the door."  But I don't think that many people woud take very kindly to it.

Yeah, retention is a key word.  IMHO, we don't need to make the requirements harder, we just need to enforce the fact that everybody doesn't deserve a promotion.  If your commander doesn't think you're ready for your next promotion, you can't do anything about that empty signature spot on the CAPF 52.....
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C/Maj Greg(ory) Boyajian, CAP
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whatevah
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« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2005, 11:08:31 PM »

any suggestions to improve the curriculum?  (and, not by adding in more physical stuff)

When I was a cadet, it wasn't very challenging, but it wasn't super easy, either.  As the lowly Cadet Airman, all I had to do was show up and follow orders.  However, then it started getting challenging, as I progressed and gained duties and was responsible and became a leader.

The Cadet Program is really to shape youth into good leaders with skills that will help them in life, and (the military wishes) instill a love for the military, so they enlist right out of high school. ;)  Anybody who's been on a proper review board will hear the same kind of questions at job interviews.  And, I even asked a lot of those questions as a Cadet Commander, before I had my first job interview.  So, that really prepared me.

Properly managed, the Cadet Program is outstanding.  However, like I say too often, a lot of units aren't run correctly.
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Jerry Horn
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Yoda
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« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2005, 11:21:26 PM »

Actually, one thing I think that would help the cadet program immensely is all of these cadets that get done being C/CC and say "Oh, I'm done in the program.  There's nothing left for me to do."  Who says?

Honestly, after I'm done being C/CC there's so much more that I want to do in the program I don't think I'll be able to get it done before I'm 21.  Drawing on my experiences, I want to help the C/CC in planning activities and training staff.  I have plans to help reinvigorate the CAC, and just generally help make our squadron better.

Most of this I simply don't have time to do as a C/CC.  Without the weekly tasks that befall me as C/CC, I think I can really help contribute.  I wish all of the cadets who got done with being C/CC took their advisor role as seriously.  There's always more to be done in the Cadet Program.  I have never once seen a perfect squadron that couldn't use help or advice.
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Schmidty06
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« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2005, 11:23:22 PM »

To slow down each phase, you could require Airman and NCO leadership schools in addition to encampments.  I'd say that requiring attending one Airman Leadership School before being promoted to C/SSgt wouldn't be asking for too much.  Also, attending at least two NCO Leadership Schools before being able to promote to C/2d Lt wouldn't be asking for too much either.  Wings could plan such schools every 3-6 months.  How's that idea?
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arajca
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« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2005, 11:34:43 PM »

One of the problems - and this is a recurring thread in CAP - is that National has provided a very basic plan (picture a rouch sketch on a cocktail napkin) and lets each unit finish it as they see fit. While this approach may have worked in the past when the US had more of a singular culture, it doesn't work now. There is almost no training provided for seniors that really has any relevance to how a cadet program should be run. Supposedly, National has a "Training Leaders of Cadets" program, but in three years, I have never seen it offered.

There is also very little training available for seniors, period. National still lives in the dreamworld where you have fully qualified members in every specialty readily available to train/mentor new members. I have tech ratings in three specialites, each one I had to figure out how do it. Fortunetely, I think in Militareze and the manuals are easy for me to comprehend. I know of many others who aren't so lucky.

CAP Professional Development - yeah, right.

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arajca
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« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2005, 11:41:03 PM »

To slow down each phase, you could require Airman and NCO leadership schools in addition to encampments.  I'd say that requiring attending one Airman Leadership School before being promoted to C/SSgt wouldn't be asking for too much.  Also, attending at least two NCO Leadership Schools before being able to promote to C/2d Lt wouldn't be asking for too much either.  Wings could plan such schools every 3-6 months.  How's that idea?

Show me the money.
It is a good idea, but if classes aren't available frequently (2-3 per year is a MINIMUM for EACH), you end up having cadets being stopped due to the failure of higher echelons over which they have no control. Cadets would most likely quit. If cadets aren't promoting because they don't study, or don't take the right tests, it becomes their problem because the thing holding them back is themselves.

WIWAC, cadets had to know which test they needed to take. If you passed the Wright Bros. test six times because you didn't take the time to check which test you needed, well tough luck. Now, I see cadets and hear about them going up to the testing officer and expecting the TO to give them the test they need, even if they have no idea which one it is.
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Schmidty06
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« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2005, 11:43:19 PM »

So in order to improve the cadet program, we have to fix the whole machine, right?  What we could do is have Senior Member encampments, SM training weekends, and the like.  I probably wouldn't start off at the top for this.  Instead, I would try it out at wing level and see how it works out.
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whatevah
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« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2005, 11:56:03 PM »

the problem with having senior training things longer than a day or weekend, is that most of the seniors work year-round, and don't feel like giving up their hard earned vacation time. :)
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Jerry Horn
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Schmidty06
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« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2005, 01:05:45 AM »

So, we'd have to make it super-duper and what not, right?
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arajca
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« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2005, 01:41:05 AM »

Here's a crazy idea---

A two day "This is how the CAP cadet program runs" course. Not a diluted "leadership" class, not a "This is how you run a squadron with cadets in it" class, not a "This is how to teach cadets" class, but a two-day, dedicated cadet programs course covering the details of the program, how to evaluate a cadet's preparedness for the next grade, how to recognize simple problems, etc.

Schedule it every three to four times yearly and make it a requirement for all CC (except senior squadron CC's), CDC, CP staff at all levels, and CP rating. Senior squadron CC's are exempted because they don't run a cadet program.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2005, 01:58:04 AM »

I see some pretty good ideas for senior training that bring to mind my perennial question - who's going to pay for it? I eagerly await well thought out, realistic answers.
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Dave Bowles
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Pylon
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Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2005, 03:30:25 AM »

To slow down each phase, you could require Airman and NCO leadership schools in addition to encampments.  I'd say that requiring attending one Airman Leadership School before being promoted to C/SSgt wouldn't be asking for too much.  Also, attending at least two NCO Leadership Schools before being able to promote to C/2d Lt wouldn't be asking for too much either.  Wings could plan such schools every 3-6 months.  How's that idea?

Show me the money.
It is a good idea, but if classes aren't available frequently (2-3 per year is a MINIMUM for EACH), you end up having cadets being stopped due to the failure of higher echelons over which they have no control. Cadets would most likely quit. If cadets aren't promoting because they don't study, or don't take the right tests, it becomes their problem because the thing holding them back is themselves.

WIWAC, cadets had to know which test they needed to take. If you passed the Wright Bros. test six times because you didn't take the time to check which test you needed, well tough luck. Now, I see cadets and hear about them going up to the testing officer and expecting the TO to give them the test they need, even if they have no idea which one it is.

What about an "If offered" clause?
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
arajca
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« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2005, 03:49:30 AM »

The problem with "If offered" is you create a disparity in training and education.

Say ABC wing offers these classes regularly, every three months, they hold an ALS, BNCOA, and ANCOA. Cadets are required to attend these because they are offered.
XYZ wing doesn't offer them. Cadets in XYZ wing get the same promotions with substantially less work on the cadets' parts. You'd end up with cadets of the same grade with HUGE differences in ability and training that can be directly attributed to the way the wing runs the "If offered" classes. There are already differences based on everyone being (slightly) different, but this scenario increases that innate variable.
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Greg
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« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2005, 04:40:07 AM »

Here's a crazy idea---

A two day "This is how the CAP cadet program runs" course. Not a diluted "leadership" class, not a "This is how you run a squadron with cadets in it" class, not a "This is how to teach cadets" class, but a two-day, dedicated cadet programs course covering the details of the program, how to evaluate a cadet's preparedness for the next grade, how to recognize simple problems, etc.

Schedule it every three to four times yearly and make it a requirement for all CC (except senior squadron CC's), CDC, CP staff at all levels, and CP rating. Senior squadron CC's are exempted because they don't run a cadet program.

Now THAT is an idea to develop!
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C/Maj Greg(ory) Boyajian, CAP
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Pylon
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Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2005, 05:02:56 AM »

I already run "This is how Cadet Programs works" weekend courses in our Group.  I call it the "Cadet Programs Colloquium" and it runs one day (usually a Saturday) at our Group HQ.  We have access to full classroom facilities because our ANG base is extremely gracious and works very closely with us; we can use most of their facilities anytime.
 
So far we've had two sessions and all Senior Members who work with Cadets and senior Cadets are invited to attend.  They involve two-way lecture and discussion of the Cadet Program at the squadron level and how it is supposed to work.  I lecture on the couple of topics selected for that session, and session members are encouraged to ask questions at any point.  In addition, time is set aside to engage in discussions about how those particular areas of CP play out in their units, what problems or confusion they experience, and we have open-group discussion on ways to solve those issues.
 
The first major session was in late January, and I'd like to have one this March.  The first major session covered several topics: Defining Cadet programs, The role of the Senior Member in CP, Cadet Uniforms (requirements, ribbons, resources, and other information).  A lot of misconceptions and misunderstandings were cleared up with that topic.  In addition, we discussed Promotion Boards, Form 50s, and some other miscellaneous topics.
 
Topics that were requested for the future and that I'll be adding to the series include "File Management - requried items & procedures, good techniques and advice, and working on a sample 'ideal' cadet file" as well as a number of other topics.  Feedback from participants was very enthusiastic, every one of the attendees said they want to keep coming back, though they wanted less lecture and more discussion than we had previously.
 
The cost to run the sessions is nothing.  We have the classroom facilities, and I paid out-of-pocket for the xerox copies of info, sign-ins, and feedback sheets.  I also recommend bringing a pile of looseleaf paper and pens for those who forget notepads.

I'd recommend this format for other Groups, or even squadrons, to educate and help 'clean up' the operation of your cadet programs.  Better educated members implementing the program means a better program for the cadets.   The key is to make these things people want to attend, such as we have here in CNY, rather than mandantory snooze sessions that people will later grumble about having to go to.  For those interested, I'd be happy to send along the agendas for the programs, the PowerPoints I used to teach the sessions, and the other sheets and info I have for the Cadet Programs Colloquiums.  :)
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
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« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2005, 03:15:11 PM »

I met this LT. at encampment last year. He is very mature for his age. He took the encampment photos, he could capture things that no one else could get. Just they way he took the pictures was cool. He joined under the old program(no age restriction, just have to be 6th grade) and advanced through the ranks very fast. The new program does have an age restriction of 12 and up.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2005, 01:52:28 AM by whatevah » Logged
c/CMSgt. Daniel Rufener
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whatevah
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« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2005, 01:53:42 AM »

He took the encampment photos, he could capture things that no one else could get. Just they way he took the pictures was cool.
Why could nobody else get them, was he really tall or something?

The photographer in me is curious. ;)
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Jerry Horn
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« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2005, 01:19:36 PM »

No, he was short. but he just knew when to take the photos, the ones that you only get one chance to take.
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c/CMSgt. Daniel Rufener
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« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2005, 01:40:02 AM »

No, he was short. but he just knew when to take the photos, the ones that you only get one chance to take.

No, he didn't, and wasn't.

 Infact, none of the pictures ever made it into the basic's hands to ever see.
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« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2005, 07:12:33 PM »

Quote
Honestly, after I'm done being C/CC there's so much more that I want to do in the program I don't think I'll be able to get it done before I'm 21.  Drawing on my experiences, I want to help the C/CC in planning activities and training staff.  I have plans to help reinvigorate the CAC, and just generally help make our squadron better.


Does this mean that your sqadron has a time frame that you can be C/CC?
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C/2d Lt. Stephen Pettit, CAP
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« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2005, 08:04:48 PM »

Quote
Honestly, after I'm done being C/CC there's so much more that I want to do in the program I don't think I'll be able to get it done before I'm 21.  Drawing on my experiences, I want to help the C/CC in planning activities and training staff.  I have plans to help reinvigorate the CAC, and just generally help make our squadron better.


Does this mean that your sqadron has a time frame that you can be C/CC?

IIRC Cadet Fenner's squadron does have term limits for line and staff positions.
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Mike Johnston
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« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2005, 12:29:55 AM »

IIRC Cadet Fenner's squadron does have term limits for line and staff positions.

Not really.  When I was Commander (and deputy for cadets before that), I always told my cadet commanders that I wasn't bound to the one year rule.  If it makes sense for a C/CC to serve for 12, 18, or even 24 months, it's what we'll do.

All four of my C/CCs chose on their own to transition after roughly a year.  Now that I think about it, in every case, it was because of college and/or military commitments.

Fenner basically set his own timetable for transition.
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capchiro
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« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2005, 10:35:54 PM »

IIRC, there was a 13 year old who recently completed the Spaatz award and made Cadet Colonel....MUst have joined under the old rule of no age requirement, but in 6th grade.  This was in the Georgia Wing and announced at last years Wing Conference.  I thought the time in grade requirements were roughly 42 months or something??? Just for what it's worth...
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Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
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BillB
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Posts: 1,987

« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2005, 11:36:06 AM »

One of the complaints when the "new" cadet program was put in place in the 60's was the tyeing of rank to completions of achievements.  It removed the Commanders ability to make promotions or demotions based on ability, not just passing a test. The lack of flexibility in the cadet grade system would allow VERY young cadets to hold rank beyond their maturity level or ability. The inability of a commander to provide cadet rank based on experience, ability, maturity and duty assignment within the unit, has over the long term been shown to be disadvantageous to the operation of a cadet unit. When you can have 13 year old Cadet Majors, telling a 17 year old cadet to do something, it is often reflected in retention rates of the unit when the older cadet resents the "kids" in authority and they drop from the program.
This is also reflected at encampments. Originally encampments were an equalizer, all cadets removed home squadron rank during the activity. It made no difference if you were a C/CMSgt or C/basic, you were equal unless you had attended an encampment and were on staff. Even staff position rank was based on the duty assignment, the higher the duty, the higher the rank assigned by the Encampment Commander. The majority of cadets attend their first encampment during the first year of membership. Thus it was possible to have a 12 year old 1st Sgt at an encampment. This discouraged the 15-16 year olds that just joined CAP . But I see no changes coming in the cadet program to modify the errors or problems created. Even though the National CAC has made several dations for changes, National HQ ignores the recommendations.
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Gil Robb Wilson # 19
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capchiro
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 577

« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2005, 01:31:00 PM »

Actually, that is incorrect.  According to CAPR 52-16, 2-4 (a.) a new cadet grade is earned when the cadet completes each achievement and the squadron commander or deputy commander for cadets signs the CAPF 52-1, 52-1, 52-3, or 52-4.  The next sentence states "When the squadron commander or deputy commander for cadets signs a cadet's CAPF 52, they are attesting to the cadet's ability to assume the next grade.  By promoting a cadet, the squadron commander is recognizing that the individual is capable of accepting increased responsibility."  This places the final authority for cadet promotions on the squadron commander or deputy commander for cadets (who serves at the pleasure of the commander).  If a cadet is not ready for promotion, he shouldn't be promoted.  This is furhter reinforced in CAPR 52-16 2-4 (e.)  Commanders should retain a cadet in grade if the cadet's performance or maturity does not demonstrate an ability to accept increased responsibility commensurate with the promotion...Further under CAPR 52-16 1-2 (b.)...Unit commanders may keep cadet command and staff positions vacant until such times as cadets obtain appropriate grades and maturity.  I think the key word here is maturity.  It would appear that the regulations provide a lot of authority for a commander to decide who gets promoted and who doesn't and who is staff and who isn't.  It shouldn't be automatic...  I also agree that all cadets should remove all rank for encampment and staff should wear appropriate rank to their assigned positions...It only makes sense and that is how it is done at all of the OCS, OTS, military training programs I have seen...       
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Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154
Matt
Seasoned Member

Posts: 469
Unit: NCR-001

North Central Region
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2005, 01:45:31 PM »

...It only makes sense...       

Yep, and that's probably why it isn't done anymore...  It made too much sense.
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Matthew Kopp, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
North Central Region
airforcecolors
Recruit

Posts: 23

« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2005, 05:34:05 PM »

Ok, here is my opinion:

So there are two possible cases of younger cadets that are able to be a C/CC or Spaatz Cadet, this doesn't mean that every cadet should be able to promoted to an officer and be a C/CC if they are 12! It shouldnt be a yes or no, it should be decided by the Squadron Commander

On that note, I know of a 14 year old C/1st Lt, whos father is the squadron commander, and he is the C/CC. It seems all too obvious that he was given the position, because the kid doesnt know anything! But that is unavoidable if the squadron is being run by their family.
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There are three kinds of people in this world...people that get things, people that watch others get things done, and people that wonder what just happened...WHICH ONE ARE YOU?
Matt
Seasoned Member

Posts: 469
Unit: NCR-001

North Central Region
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2005, 05:57:58 PM »

uummm... Kristie, don't you have school today???  ;D

But yes, you do have a good point, it is ultimately up to the squadron commander or desginee.  However, I also know of some instances where the opposite happened, where the cadet was ready to be promoted but was held back, which is the reverse of what you had pointed out.

I also concur with capchiro, there should be a more standardized CoC for encampments because there is the occasion where there is a more competant c/Maj than c/Col, but the Col simply gets the position OR is under the Maj which looks just plain weird.

However, any way you put it, there is possibilities of those being promoted at young ages and others being held back.  IN THEORY squadron commanders should have the experience and competency to make the correct decision, not saying all do, but all SHOULD.  As for the formal encampment CoC, once upon a time we had that, before I was a member, I like the idea, personally, but I'm not sure if it has the ability to come back.

Matt
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Matthew Kopp, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
North Central Region
MIKE
Super Moderator

Posts: 5,460
Unit: LANTAREA

« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2005, 06:19:21 PM »

It shouldnt be a yes or no, it should be decided by the Squadron Commander

For the Spaatz at least cadets receive approval from the wing commander before the test may be administered.

Quote from: CAPR 52-16
2-10. THE SPAATZ EXAMS. Examinations for the General Carl A. Spaatz Award are ordered from national
headquarters and administered by the state director or deputy state director
a. Before being administered the Spaatz Award exams, the cadet must receive approval from the unit and wing
commander.
1) Cadets will submit their requests in the form of a memo or email that includes the following information:
full name, unit charter number, CAPID, home address, email address, telephone number(s), date of birth, date the Eaker
Award was earned, and indicate whether they are attempting the exam for the first, second, or third time. Approving
commanders will sign the memo or forward the email in-turn to endorse the request. If the wing commander approves
the request, the wing commander will forward the memo or email to the state director or deputy state director. Then,
the cadet may make an appointment with the state director or deputy state director to take the exam.
2) If the wing commander disapproves the cadet’s request, then he or she must provide the cadet with a
written explanation for the decision within 30 days of receiving the cadet’s request. Cadets may resubmit their requests
at a later date, or appeal the wing commander’s decision to the respective region commander, who must uphold or
overturn the wing commander’s decision in writing within 30 days of receiving the cadet’s appeal. The region
commander’s decision is final.
3) Before administering the exam, the state director or deputy state director verifies the requestor is a current
CAP cadet member, is under age 21, and has earned the Eaker Award.
b. The state director (or deputy state director) has the right to refuse to administer the examination if the
examinee’s grooming and/or appearance do not meet CAP standards, or if the examinee’s attitude is unacceptable on
the date of the exam.

MAWG has recently rolled out a requirement that cadets must appear before a wing review board before a milestone award exam may be administered or promotion action taken... IIRC it doesn't include the WBA.  Not sure if it's really going to solve some of the underlying issues with regard to cadet progression in the wing... But it seems that this is the intent.

On that note, I know of a 14 year old C/1st Lt, whos father is the squadron commander, and he is the C/CC. It seems all too obvious that he was given the position, because the kid doesnt know anything! But that is unavoidable if the squadron is being run by their family.

I think this is a case of  appearances being everything... If you as a leader are allowed to give the appearance of impropriety... IMO, there is a problem, even if you as a leader say there isn't one.  IIRC there is a rule in the finance regulations that says that family members can't be signing the checks etc.  Why CAP doesn't have similar rules for other aspects of the program to prevent mom and pop operations within the organization is beyond me.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2005, 06:34:38 PM by MIKE » Logged
Mike Johnston
Horn229
Forum Regular

Posts: 154

« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2005, 10:21:06 PM »

MAWG has recently rolled out a requirement that cadets must appear before a wing review board before a milestone award exam may be administered or promotion action taken... IIRC it doesn't include the WBA.  Not sure if it's really going to solve some of the underlying issues with regard to cadet progression in the wing... But it seems that this is the intent.

My CAC tried coming up with a plan of doing the same thing. But my main objection is, that it's supposed to be the Squadrons job to decide if someone is ready for a promotion. Having a Wing PRB for milestones, IMO, is crossing the line into micro-management. Now if the Sqdn CC is obviously promoting people to the Mitcell who shouldn't have even received the Arnold, then the DCP or Group CC should step in and give the CC a little smack down chat.

Now our CAC's focus is really on recruiting and retention, we don't seem to have any cadets to worry about speeding through the grades.  :D
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NICHOLAS A. HORN, Senior Member, CAP
MIKE
Super Moderator

Posts: 5,460
Unit: LANTAREA

« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2005, 12:27:14 AM »

MAWG has recently rolled out a requirement that cadets must appear before a wing review board before a milestone award exam may be administered or promotion action taken... IIRC it doesn't include the WBA.  Not sure if it's really going to solve some of the underlying issues with regard to cadet progression in the wing... But it seems that this is the intent.

My CAC tried coming up with a plan of doing the same thing. But my main objection is, that it's supposed to be the Squadrons job to decide if someone is ready for a promotion. Having a Wing PRB for milestones, IMO, is crossing the line into micro-management. Now if the Sqdn CC is obviously promoting people to the Mitcell who shouldn't have even received the Arnold, then the DCP or Group CC should step in and give the CC a little smack down chat.

Now our CAC's focus is really on recruiting and retention, we don't seem to have any cadets to worry about speeding through the grades.  :D

I don't think ours was the result of a CAC proposal.  Our DCP was the one who told me about it... It seems from the way he pitched it to me that it was indeed an attempt from MAWG CP to impose some form of quality control on cadet promotions within the wing.... From my own personal experience, something does need to be done in this regard...  But I am skeptical as to whether or not these will result in marked improvement in the quality of our cadet officers and CP in general.  They haven't asked me to serve on a board.  ;)

Personally, I think it would have been beneficial to conduct a board for the WBA also... Start setting expectations early I say.

MAWG sort of did have a smack down chat with all the CCs a while ago in the form of a mandatory UCC... If you were a serving unit commander and didn't show up you were getting relieved, and some did IIRC.  I just hope they have another that I can go to sometime.  :)
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Mike Johnston
Ford73Diesel
Seasoned Member

Posts: 215

« Reply #45 on: October 16, 2005, 09:01:23 PM »

I used to be a member of this cadet' squadron. Needless to say he is one of the reasons I transferred (Joined GLR-OH-131 in 2002, transferrd to GLR-OH-236 in 2004, and recently transferred to GLR-OH-096) He does not have the expirence to be a C/CC. He puts a C/SrA that has no knowledge of drill over C/2d Lt's that do. When he was a C/2d Lt, he asked a C/Capt to salute him. stuff like that ect. that gives him a bad reputation. Overall he is not a bad kid. He did join under the six grade rule (homeschooled) and rank-cranked all the way to C/1st Lt,
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footballrun21
Forum Regular

Posts: 121

« Reply #46 on: October 30, 2005, 02:14:47 PM »

If this cadet was in JROTC or Boy Scouts (or both) wouldn't that raise his grade faster?  How old do you have to be to be in JROTC/Boy Scouts?
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C/2d Lt. Stephen Pettit, CAP
New Jersey Wing
arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,339

« Reply #47 on: October 30, 2005, 02:43:27 PM »

You only get to 'fast track' if you are in JROTC, which is only available in some high schools.
The appropriate section of CAPR 52-16 says
Quote
6-1. CAP POLICY FOR JROTC. The following policy reflects an expansion of the relationship between the CAP
Cadet Program and Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps (JROTC) programs. The CAP Cadet Program and JROTC
organizations of the armed services (Air Force JROTC, Army JROTC, Navy JROTC, and Marine Corps JROTC) are
complementary and mutually supporting. CAP encourages support of JROTC through dual membership of CAP cadets
whenever possible.
a. JROTC cadets may be accelerated through the CAP Cadet Program when they meet the following requirements:
1) Two full years of JROTC – The CAP cadet may be promoted at the rate of one achievement per month up
to the Mitchell Award.
2) Three full years of JROTC – The CAP cadet may be promoted at the rate of one achievement per month up
to the Earhart Award.
3) Four full years of JROTC – The CAP cadet may be promoted at the rate of one achievement per month up
to the Eaker Award.
b. All CAP requirements for each achievement and each milestone award (Wright Brothers, Mitchell, Earhart,
Eaker and Spaatz) will be met under the supervision of CAP personnel. Milestone exams and achievement tests must
be taken and passed. All promotion requirements will be met, except that the minimum time in grade is reduced for
JROTC cadets, as described above. Cadets who have completed an AFJROTC summer leadership school may receive
CAP encampment credit if NHQ CAP/CP reviews the training syllabus and determines the AFJROTC activity met 80%
of the CAP encampment curricula described in chapter 5.
c. Squadron commanders, when submitting CAPFs 52-l, 52-2 or 52-3 for cadets credited with JROTC experience,
will attach a copy of the certification to the form. JROTC aerospace (ASI), military (MSI) or naval science instructors
(NSI) will certify 2, 3 or 4 years completion of JROTC. CAP Cadet Program credit is not authorized for less than 2
years of JROTC.
d. CAP cadets may wear the following awards earned through their JROTC participation:
1) CAP cadets are limited to wear any three JROTC ribbons on the CAP uniform (placements of JROTC
ribbons are found in CAPM 39-l, CAP Uniform Manual). No other JROTC specialty badges or devices are authorized
unless found in CAPM 39-1. JROTC aerospace (ASI), military (MSI), or naval science instructors (NSI) will certify
the authority to wear the JROTC ribbons.
2) Cadets enrolled in CAP and AFJROTC who use the same uniform for both activities may wear the CAP
wing patch on the right shoulder and the AFJROTC patch on the left shoulder (See CAPM 39-1). Other JROTC
patches are not authorized.

You'd need a minimum two years of JROTC to fast track to Mitchell, which means you'd be 15-16 years old.

Boy Scouts are not elligible to fast track.
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footballrun21
Forum Regular

Posts: 121

« Reply #48 on: October 30, 2005, 07:13:24 PM »

Alright, but how could this be true?  Was this cadet the C/CC before of after the recuirements for testing were changed?  I knew 2 cadets that were twins (one boy, one girl) that were only 13 and were both 2nd Lts.  This was just last year, too.
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C/2d Lt. Stephen Pettit, CAP
New Jersey Wing
BillB
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,987

« Reply #49 on: October 30, 2005, 07:40:47 PM »

That was possible when the 6th grade requirement was in effect. It would have been possible for an 11 or even 10 year old to be a cadet if in the 6th grade.  That avenue is no longer in effect, and the minimum age requirement is now in effect.
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Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104
John Bryan
Forum Regular

Posts: 192

« Reply #50 on: October 31, 2005, 12:45:24 AM »

Well you can still join under 12 if you belong to a school based unit and are 11 or whatever and in the 6th grade. The normal units have to wait for a kid to turn 12.

I think that the reason this type of story upsets people is it shows how age limits for membership or rank do not fit. Some young people can and should be cadet officers younger then others. Many feel we need to LIMIT the young and a story about a good young leader breaks that idea.

I have worked with this cadet. I was on the encampment staff during his basic year and he is a great cadet. I also was on staff at a NCSA his brother attended. By the way both did encampment and NCSA in 2003 and were good cadets.

Yes they are home school students and very bright youngmen. So he is smart, a good cadet, a growing leader, and young.....so explain why we need to limit him?

The youngest American to earn the Medal of Honor was 12 years old (Civil War).....again there is proof that age should not matter if you EARN something.

Respectfully,
John Bryan
INWG CAP
Spaatz #1262
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schreiberboy
Recruit

Posts: 19

Camden Military Cadet Squadron
« Reply #51 on: July 10, 2006, 05:41:15 PM »

In the March issue of CAP News in the Highlights section, there is a blurb on a cadet in Ohio who is 12 years old, a C/CC, and a C/1st Lt.  After reading this story and finding out about his track record as a cadet (all in the story, if you read it).  Something definately doesn't seem right about this.  Nothing against him, since it seems like he is pretty squared away, but this is one of the reason that there should, perhaps be some age restrictions on cadet ranks. 
I would agree with you......
I know at most military schools they regulate how high in rank you can go by what grade you are in.  A 10th grader cant be more than a platoon sgt....a 9th grader cant be more than a SSgt...and so on...and it really does work well.
In our CAP squadron, we choose who is in command, first, by rank, but secondly by who is most effective but maintains a good reputation.  Sometimes one guy who is an Amn in CAP (yet a First Sergeant in JROTC and therefore 16+ years old) may be more fit to be a flight sgt than a SrA in CAP who may be only 12.  A command voice can also be very important in stuff like that, and usually a 12 year old hasn't quite gotten that voice yet.
I'm not saying that a 12 year old CC is bad and I'm not underestimating the SC or the DCC, but sometimes someone with a lesser rank but more age/stature can be more effective.
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c/2d Lt Daniel Schreiber, CAP
LTC BnCo, Camden Military Academy
mprokosch11
Forum Regular

Posts: 103

« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2006, 01:19:10 AM »

I don't know if anybody talked about this yet but very recently (last few months) in the National CAP newsletter a 13 year old girl received the Spaatz Award. How is it possible to promote so many times in only two years. Not to mention that she had to of failed a couple of times. Our squadron only has testing once a month and if you pass you get promoted the next month.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2006, 01:34:12 AM by penguinmaster113 » Logged
C/Capt Matthew A. Prokosch, CAP
New York Wing
Utica Cadet Squadron (NER-NY-162)
schreiberboy
Recruit

Posts: 19

Camden Military Cadet Squadron
« Reply #53 on: July 11, 2006, 01:34:12 AM »

I don't know if anybody talked about this yet but in the National CAP newsletter a 13 year old girl received the Spaatz Award. How is it possible to promote so many times in only two years. Not to mention that she had to of failed a couple of times. Our squadron only has testing once a month and if you pass you get promoted the next month.
i think she started when she was 10 1/2 before they changed the regs...
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c/2d Lt Daniel Schreiber, CAP
LTC BnCo, Camden Military Academy
mprokosch11
Forum Regular

Posts: 103

« Reply #54 on: July 11, 2006, 01:36:27 AM »

That would help starting so early.
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C/Capt Matthew A. Prokosch, CAP
New York Wing
Utica Cadet Squadron (NER-NY-162)
MIKE
Super Moderator

Posts: 5,460
Unit: LANTAREA

« Reply #55 on: July 11, 2006, 01:39:43 AM »

How is it possible to promote so many times in only two years.

Joined under the old reg... She was 10 IIRC.

Not to mention that she had to of failed a couple of times. Our squadron only has testing once a month and if you pass you get promoted the next month.

Some squadrons let you test every week until you pass, so cadets can promote at minimum Time in Grade.
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Mike Johnston
Nathan
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 685

« Reply #56 on: July 11, 2006, 02:11:08 PM »

I have living proof in my wing that we need age restrictions. A fourteen year old C/Lt Col whose squadron is basically run by his parents. There's been some obviously fishy things about his promotion rates, and he definetely does NOT need to be a C/Lt Col right now...

It seems to me that officers promoted before they are ready are more of a danger to the program than not promoting younger guys when they are ready.
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Nathan Scalia

The post beneath this one is a lie.
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,559
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #57 on: July 11, 2006, 11:26:15 PM »

I don't know if anybody talked about this yet but very recently (last few months) in the National CAP newsletter a 13 year old girl received the Spaatz Award. How is it possible to promote so many times in only two years. Not to mention that she had to of failed a couple of times. Our squadron only has testing once a month and if you pass you get promoted the next month.

Did you read the WHOLE article? I think she's done a good job as a cadet. Yes, she started early, but it appears that she did all the work, along with other activities in school. The fact that her older brother has his Spaatz probably didn't hurt. (I'm not implying that she cheated, but she certainly benefited from any guidance he may have given her.) Let's just congratulate her, and wish her the best in her upcoming time in CAP. When you have your Spaatz, then you can be more critical.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,986

« Reply #58 on: July 13, 2006, 04:10:41 PM »

In my thirty plus years (the first handful as a cadet, and eventually a cadet officer), I've seen that neither age, IQ, or genetics really seem to determine who is a good officer (cadet OR senior)....it has a lot more to do with character.

Having said that, my observation has been that very young cadet officers often lack the maturity to handle the responsibilities of their grade and/or assigned position.

Here is a modest proposal to address the situation: cahnge time in grade requirement for cadet promotions to 3 months.

C/2 Lt would take a minimum of 2 years, C/Lt Col a minimum of 4 years....which would make Eaker/Spaatz cadets 15 at the very least.

It wouldn't be a hardship to the average cadet; most only advance 2 to 3 achievements annually as it is.

It would, however, give the 'high fliers' a little more time to gain experience & maturity.
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schreiberboy
Recruit

Posts: 19

Camden Military Cadet Squadron
« Reply #59 on: July 13, 2006, 07:02:16 PM »

It would, however, give the 'high fliers' a little more time to gain experience & maturity.
At my squadron we have an evaluation form of a little less than 40 points to evaluate the cadets.  When one guy is up for promotion, the squadron commander and I run through the evaluation, and if the cadet lacks too many points in certain areas (he doesn't have to score a perfect 100 A+), we withhold his promotion until he proves to us that he has improved.
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c/2d Lt Daniel Schreiber, CAP
LTC BnCo, Camden Military Academy
ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,986

« Reply #60 on: July 15, 2006, 05:03:16 AM »

It would, however, give the 'high fliers' a little more time to gain experience & maturity.
At my squadron we have an evaluation form of a little less than 40 points to evaluate the cadets.  When one guy is up for promotion, the squadron commander and I run through the evaluation, and if the cadet lacks too many points in certain areas (he doesn't have to score a perfect 100 A+), we withhold his promotion until he proves to us that he has improved.

Compliments to you and your CC on taking your responsibility seriously!

If only your approach were more the norm.

However, my suggestion was simply to help space out cadet promotions a bit more sensibly, to increase the likelihood that a cadet would be ready to promote when the achievement was finished (including tig)....this would not eliminate the need for command level review, but might help reduce questions, arguments, angry calls from parents, and so forth.
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BillB
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,987

« Reply #61 on: July 15, 2006, 12:15:47 PM »

A three month time in grade is fine for the 12-14 year old cadets. It gives them time to absorb the leadership and aerospace material. However, for the 15 to 18 year old cadets, it's to long a TIG. They are slightly more mature and can grasp material somewhat more rapidly.
The cadet program in reality has three levels of cadets, the 12-14 year old, the 15 to 18, and the 18 to 21. Over the past sixty years the cadet program made provisions for the various age groups. The 12-14 fell into what CAP called the Eaglet Program (actually the ages were lower for Eaglet members). The 15-18 year olds were the regular cadets, and the 18-21 year olds were in Officers Training Corp. This system worked by putting cadets into age groups with their peers and allowed cadets to advance based on maturity levels as well as educational levels. Please note that the three levels were mainly in training, and were not designed to develop cliques within a Squadron. One Florida unit was given permission to try an Eaglet program two years ago and while membership was low, the cadets learned rapidly and when time came to join the regular cadets they were well prepared.
Having a program like OTC for the older cadets allowed a much higher retention rate. Their text books for Aerospace were more advanced and complex. The OTC Leadership portion of the program more closely followed regular AFROTC (Not JAFROTC) It presented a older cadet with a more challenging program than what currently exists.
Promotions were based on ability, not automatic by taking two tests. Commanders had discretionary grade promotion (or demotion) authority which required Wing approval.  Therefore a cadet could not be a C/CC until they were advanced enough in the various levels to be able to handle the responsibility of the position.
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Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104
ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,986

« Reply #62 on: July 15, 2006, 04:59:22 PM »

I'd be interested in learning more about this; it pre-dates my cadet membership (1970); heard something like this proposed at an open discussion with some National brass 5 or 6 years ago (different incumbents, obviously), and they did not like the idea of it at all....but it seems like a logical, necessary step as the organizations HLS commitment grows....young adult trainees may be allowed to work in that area, but I don't see the government accepting minors.

Up until shortly before I joined, squadron commanders had promotion/demotion authority with one built-in 'loophole'.....earning certain milestone awards resulted in an automatic jump in grade, and I believe the new grade became the cadet's 'base grade'....could not be demoted below it.....all I remmember is that the Mitchell resulted in promotion to c/2 Lt, regardless of prior rank....a necessary provision to curtail the possibility of favoritism.

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BillB
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,987

« Reply #63 on: July 15, 2006, 11:14:23 PM »

I think you'll find that anyone that remembers the old cadet system(s) are no longer in CAP. There may be a copy of the brochures or even the Regulations on the Eaglet Program in the CAP Archives. I may have one somewhere, but after moving three times in 10 years, it may have gone by the board) The OTC program never was popular with cadets since there was no specific goals. Today it would probably include Homeland Security issues/missions, ES training etc., while still allowing the OTC member to earn the Spaatz.
In the Florida unit that tested an Eaglet type program the Eaglets wore USAF shirts, no insignia and blue jeans. If the program was done on a National level, I would think that some sort of insignia such as the overseas patch of the prop and triangle would be added.
A three level system for the cadet program would allow younger cadets to take part at their age level, and at the same time, retain the 18-21 years old in the OTC level to continue cadet tarining while also taking training in senior program.
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Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104
Marine Corps Gal
Recruit

Posts: 14

My website
« Reply #64 on: July 16, 2006, 12:39:00 PM »

I disagree with age limitations, but this guy has GOT to be violating TIG requirements.  Anybody else notice the article was written by his mom?

Yes, as a matter of fact -- and that's something to consider.  I have seen this scenario before (almost the exact same), where the mom or dad (I won't say which for security reasons) was in command and right there to grease the wheels/sign all the papers.  I'm not saying that's how it was in this cadet's case, but it is entirely possible.  I would have to meet the fellow to know.
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OO-RAH.
ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,986

« Reply #65 on: July 16, 2006, 09:01:04 PM »

I disagree with age limitations, but this guy has GOT to be violating TIG requirements.  Anybody else notice the article was written by his mom?

Yes, as a matter of fact -- and that's something to consider.  I have seen this scenario before (almost the exact same), where the mom or dad (I won't say which for security reasons) was in command and right there to grease the wheels/sign all the papers.  I'm not saying that's how it was in this cadet's case, but it is entirely possible.  I would have to meet the fellow to know.

Any commander with offspring as cadets in his/her unit should have another officer take responsibility for approving the cadet's advancement...DCC, where possible....it is a matter of simple integrity....there is too much favoritism, nepotism and cronyism in CAP, from top to bottom.
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Psicorp
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 605

« Reply #66 on: July 22, 2006, 03:56:16 AM »

In my thirty plus years (the first handful as a cadet, and eventually a cadet officer), I've seen that neither age, IQ, or genetics really seem to determine who is a good officer (cadet OR senior)....it has a lot more to do with character.

Having said that, my observation has been that very young cadet officers often lack the maturity to handle the responsibilities of their grade and/or assigned position.

Here is a modest proposal to address the situation: cahnge time in grade requirement for cadet promotions to 3 months.

C/2 Lt would take a minimum of 2 years, C/Lt Col a minimum of 4 years....which would make Eaker/Spaatz cadets 15 at the very least.

It wouldn't be a hardship to the average cadet; most only advance 2 to 3 achievements annually as it is.

It would, however, give the 'high fliers' a little more time to gain experience & maturity.

Having missed the chance to take the Spaatz exam a second time due to turning 21 (college courses got in the way, silly me), I envy those cadets who seemingly have all the time in the world to prep.   On the other side of the coin though, does anyone really expect an older cadet (16-20) or a senior member to really respect a 12 or 13 year old C/Col?   I know when I was a cadet I wouldn't have...I probably would have told him/her to go play with his/her diamonds.    This really bothers me on a core level.  I can't imagine a Squadron Commander allowing a cadet to advance that quickly, even if it's Mommy or Daddy.  A cadet starting that young really should have all the fundamentals down in six foot thick concrete before being allowed anywhere near officer grades.   Is it possible that JROTC units and military academies generally only use third and fourth year students as cadet staff for a reason?  Just a thought.    I realize that every parent thinks their "little angel" is the best and brightest, but being able to pass exams isn't the only criterium for advancement in the program.
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Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257
schreiberboy
Recruit

Posts: 19

Camden Military Cadet Squadron
« Reply #67 on: July 22, 2006, 12:38:16 PM »

I realize that every parent thinks their "little angel" is the best and brightest, but being able to pass exams isn't the only criterium for advancement in the program.
I agree completely!
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c/2d Lt Daniel Schreiber, CAP
LTC BnCo, Camden Military Academy
capchiro
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Posts: 577

« Reply #68 on: July 22, 2006, 05:36:08 PM »

Upon reflection of this matter, I think individual circumstances may prevail and age may not always reveal maturity/ability.  After all, how old was Custer when he made general and how old was Audie Murphy when he became the most decorated enlisted man in Korea and became 2Lt. through battlefield commission.  I do know that we had a Spaatz. in our wing that was 13 years old and she did come in under the old age requirements.  That being said, she came from a fine military family and was very well indoctrinated in the military.  I believe she had a brother that was also a Spaatz and being a very close family, I have to believe that she probably began reading and understanding CAP info a long time before joining.  Again, these cadets we have talked about are the exception and perhaps others should aspire to do as well instead of bemoaning the fact that they didn't have enough time to make the grade.  I know a lot of cadets that waste time and then something comes up, like a job or tech school, or flight lessons, possibly even a girl or boyfriend etc., ande then they can not be bothered enough to put the effort into CAP.  I do think it is easier for a young cadet to concentrate on CAP as they truly have more free time and less distractions.  However, if the program is administered fairly, any young cadet that reaches such a level should have demonstrated the same abilities and required expertise/knowledge as an older cadet.  JMHO.
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Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154
manfredvonrichthofen
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Posts: 1,881

« Reply #69 on: May 29, 2010, 07:18:56 AM »

When I was a cadet there were requirements of time in grade also, I think it was three months. If there is no TIG requirement, Awesome, Great job! That is great to know that there are cadets that are that into CAP. There were none in my old squadron as a cadet.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 07:23:40 AM by manfredvonrichthofen » Logged
DBlair
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 783

« Reply #70 on: May 29, 2010, 08:13:24 AM »

When I was a cadet there were requirements of time in grade also, I think it was three months. If there is no TIG requirement, Awesome, Great job! That is great to know that there are cadets that are that into CAP. There were none in my old squadron as a cadet.

The same 2 month TIG requirement still exists.
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DANIEL BLAIR, Lt Col, CAP
C/Lt Col (Ret) (1990s Era)
Wing Staff / Legislative Squadron Commander
Rotorhead
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 595

« Reply #71 on: May 29, 2010, 12:47:51 PM »

It would, however, give the 'high fliers' a little more time to gain experience & maturity.
At my squadron we have an evaluation form of a little less than 40 points to evaluate the cadets.  When one guy is up for promotion, the squadron commander and I run through the evaluation, and if the cadet lacks too many points in certain areas (he doesn't have to score a perfect 100 A+), we withhold his promotion until he proves to us that he has improved.
But if you do that you can't proudly claim you have record-setting cadets who make C/Col and Spaatz award at 6 years old.
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Capt. Scott Orr, CAP
Deputy Commander/Cadets
Prescott Composite Sqdn. 206
Prescott, AZ
Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
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Posts: 6,062
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #72 on: May 29, 2010, 05:57:04 PM »

When I was a cadet there were requirements of time in grade also, I think it was three months. If there is no TIG requirement, Awesome, Great job! That is great to know that there are cadets that are that into CAP. There were none in my old squadron as a cadet.


Nice four year grave dig.
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kd8gua
Seasoned Member

Posts: 233
Unit: GLR-OH-139

« Reply #73 on: May 30, 2010, 06:01:06 PM »

Hah, I read the original post, and now I'm curious... I was in the Honor Flight at 03 OHWG Encampment. I wonder if I remember the cadet in question.
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Capt Brad Thomas
Communications Officer
Columbus Composite Squadron

Assistant Cadet Programs Activities Officer
Ohio Wing HQ
Майор Хаткевич
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Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #74 on: May 31, 2010, 02:49:39 AM »

Hah, I read the original post, and now I'm curious... I was in the Honor Flight at 03 OHWG Encampment. I wonder if I remember the cadet in question.

I was at HGA the year after him, and he was remembered as the source if a lot of drama.
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vmstan
Seasoned Member

Posts: 336
Unit: NCR-KS-055

Squadron Website
« Reply #75 on: May 31, 2010, 03:38:47 PM »

Zombie thread!  >:D
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MICHAEL M STANCLIFT, 1st Lt, CAP
Public Affairs Officer, NCR-KS-055, Heartland Squadron

Quote
“I wish to compliment NHQ on this extremely well and clearly written regulation.
This publication once and for all should establish the uniform pattern to be followed
throughout Civil Air Patrol.”

1949 Uniform and Insignia Committee comment on CAP Reg 35-4
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,559
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #76 on: June 01, 2010, 06:32:48 AM »

This might even be a new Zombie record!
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
a2capt
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Posts: 5,089
Unit: pǝʇɹǝʌuı

« Reply #77 on: June 01, 2010, 07:02:14 AM »

I've got to grave dig to find the article now, I must have not read this one - Even if they snuck in as the "6th grade" thing ..
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #78 on: June 01, 2010, 03:39:19 PM »

I've got to grave dig to find the article now, I must have not read this one - Even if they snuck in as the "6th grade" thing ..

It was the 12 or 6th grade rule, and he was home-schooled by his Mother, who was the unit commander. It was posted as an online story back when the website was CAP.gov

As for grace digs, someone pulled a story from 2005 before, so it may have some competition.
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jimmydeanno
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Posts: 4,155
Unit: ǝnƃoɹ

« Reply #79 on: June 01, 2010, 04:32:17 PM »

I don't understand what the age of a thread has to do with anything.  Isn't the content more important? 

Certainly, it can be argued that by complaining about the "necromancy" places more of an emphasis on the chronology of the threads than what the content is.  Unfortunately, valuable discussions are looked at as obsolete simply because of the time period they were created.

So long as the added content adds to the discussion, does the age really matter?
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If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill
Майор Хаткевич
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Posts: 6,062
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #80 on: June 01, 2010, 07:23:24 PM »

jimmydeanno,

I agree with your post, however the grave dig post neither brought new light to the topic, nor seems to take into account the rest of the thread.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: 12 Year Old C/CC
 


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