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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Senior member
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flyguy06
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,195

« on: June 12, 2006, 01:26:33 PM »

I am a Senior member. I am a former cadet and currently in the Army national Guard. I am a real military officer.

My Squadron is small and does not have any real cadet leadership. So I lead the cadets. I form them up. I drill them. I call cadence. I am in efect their cadet commander although my official title is dep. for cadets.

Now, when I participate in an activity outside my squadron,I want to guide other cadets. I find that cadet NCO's and Officers in other units dont have the same discipine thatI instil in my cadets. They dont addres me the proper customs and curteousies. They dont salute. And they get down right rude sometimes when I try to give them some advice.

They beilieve that beause they are cadet officers they have nothing to learn and they want to be the big boss. i remind them that they are still cadets and they are still learning to be leaders. they are not perect. heck, i am not perfrect and I lead soldiers.

Onetime at a Regional encampment,I was a TAC officer and the Encampment cadet commander was trying to give me orders. It took all lmy military discipline not to whale into her.

What are these cadets these days being taught.
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Al Sayre
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,513
Unit: SER-MS-001

Mississippi Wing
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2006, 01:36:05 PM »

Sometimes a good butt chewing is what they need, but I would bring the issue up to their Squadron Deputy for Cadets and let him/her do it.  That doesn't mean you don't have the right to correct the offending Cadidiot.  If the Cadet is disrespectful, you have every right to dress them down (stay within the harrassment guidelines) and then report it to their Squadron Commander or Deputy for Cadets. 

If you think it's a problem with their whole program, fixing one Cadet won't fix the problem, you need to bring it to the attention of their Chain of Command.
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Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787
Becks
Seasoned Member

Posts: 331

« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2006, 02:04:56 PM »

this was a nice article I found on cadet stuff.  maybe it can help you:

http://www.cadetstuff.org/archives/000118.html#000118
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BBATW
MIKE
Super Moderator

Posts: 5,460
Unit: LANTAREA

« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2006, 02:24:19 PM »

I think part of the problem is that cadets aren't used to being lead by SMs... They are used to running their own program because their seniors don't or can't.

Cadidiots and even seniors often operate on "but I was taught/told..."  They will often actively resist when you tell them that what they learned is wrong and point them to an official publication.  They may do as you ask while you are present, but as soon as you leave they'll go back to doing it their way.
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Mike Johnston
mikeylikey
Banned

Posts: 3,755

« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2006, 03:41:57 PM »

Maybe instead of taking over, take a few Cadets aside and show them the right thing to do, so that they can show the others.  You have effectively turned your unit into an Army Company, just that your Privates and NCO's are in fact Cadets.  You need to remember that CAP is not the military.  It will take time to show what the right thing is to Cadets.  They are not Soldiers fresh from Basic Training.  They are also volunteers, like yourself.  Push too hard and they will say "see ya"!

Onetime at a Regional encampment,I was a TAC officer and the Encampment cadet commander was trying to give me orders. It took all all my military discipline not to whale into her.

Wow, a "real military Officer" ready to whale into a Cadet.  That is surely the image that comes to mind when people think of Officers right?  Perhaps you could have taken her aside and discussed her misconceptions.  I guess you let her go on thinking what she was doing was correct, right? 

As for guiding other Cadets not from your unit, I hope you also speak their Senior Members.  If not, it may cause others to see you in a bad light. 

Did you miss the class in ROTC or OCS or West Point that dealt with spelling and effective military writing?  Please in the future press the "Spell Check" button!
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What's up monkeys?
capchiro
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 577

« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2006, 04:48:41 PM »

Mikeylikey, While I agree with some of your comments, we must be careful of criticizing others about spelling, etc, if we are not perfect ourselves.  Case in point is your signature where it states "your an officer..."  I do think it should be "you're an officer..."  I could be wrong but sometimes we tend to be too critical of others.  Also, being critical of others brings closer inspection of our own efforts and less tolerance for mistakes from others.  Let's not discourage the message by criticizing the messager and keep the lines of communication open in an informal, friendly style.  JMHO
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Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154
mikeylikey
Banned

Posts: 3,755

« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2006, 05:03:10 PM »

 :)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2006, 12:42:40 PM by mikeylikey » Logged
What's up monkeys?
Matt
Seasoned Member

Posts: 469
Unit: NCR-001

North Central Region
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2006, 05:54:32 PM »

I would tend to agree, whaling in is not real good -- from the cadet perspective, that just pisses us off.  So in turn, we'd be be upset with one and other.  Frankly, I'd just walk away from you for being rude by yelling instead of talking; which I would expect any level-headed person to do.

However, I must compliment you on your control.  I've been there before, and I did moreless the same thing by walking away.

Now, from a cadet's perspective on this, and an ole' fart cadet at that, I can vaguely understand this.  However, if you're are unknowing of another SM/Officer, you treat them with respect due to them, unless they've simply proven otherwise, then one still, gives yield to the grade.

But, onto my point: I've experienced SMs who come in and try to take control of cadets that they know nothing about.  For example, two weeks ago at an airshow, a 2LT type of not more than 9 months membership was trying to control my flightline crew in addition to her's (Now I was taken abroad, this LT knew nothing of me, my abilities, or my experience).

She briefed me as to the rotation on the grounds, I confirmed that I knew what was going on, I was still doing my walk-around with people when she came up and told my personnel where to go.

Biting my tongue, I released them to move where directed, of which I then moved them to a more adequate location.

My point in the matter is: perhaps knowing the backgrounds of cadets prior to telling them to do things is a better course of action.  Interact a bit prior to leading them.  Find their weaknesses and strengths.

As for a lack of discipline, that would be a weakness -- a large one.  To the point of, if the cadet doesn't listen -- talk with their SMIC.  There is no reason to put up with a blatant lack of respect, especially if the cadet is going to start to control you without knowing your prior experience, strengths and weaknesses.
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Matthew Kopp, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
North Central Region
shorning
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 968

« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2006, 06:30:12 PM »

[redacted a pointless post]

« Last Edit: June 13, 2006, 04:39:21 AM by shorning » Logged
mikeylikey
Banned

Posts: 3,755

« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2006, 06:47:58 PM »

 :)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2006, 12:43:11 PM by mikeylikey » Logged
What's up monkeys?
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,559
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2006, 07:20:11 PM »

Let's give flyguy a little slack on his posts. He's in the sandbox and doesn't get a lot of time on the computer to generate the picture perfect posts that we Grammar Cops would like to see. I'm just glad to see him post and share his experiences with us.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Matt
Seasoned Member

Posts: 469
Unit: NCR-001

North Central Region
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2006, 08:01:13 PM »

concurred.. message gets across, syntax is the least important portion of it.
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Matthew Kopp, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
North Central Region
flyguy06
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,195

« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2006, 04:18:22 AM »

Wow. My post was about cadets and it turned into my spelling. I do know how to spell. Its caled typing fast and getting some typos. You understand the gist of what I am saying so read between the lines .

Now then, my cadets dont mind me drilling them. i will do so until I get cadets that can eventually lead on their own.

No, I would never embarrass a cadet in public just like I would never embarass a soldier in public, BUT understand the cadet programis a training program. And I realize that CAP is NOT the military, it  is at least in my state, a military "like" organization. I can either run it like an ROTC or I can run it like the Boy Scouts. I choose ROTC.

You will NEVER hear me refer to a cadet as a kid, or child. Children dont go out looking for lost aircraft.  The cadet Programis supposed to teach leadership and discipline. If I coddle them what have they learned. have I prepared them to be leaders that take initiaive or I have just given them 2 hours of "hey lets go play in the woods"

My cadets are future pilots. When they start flying and they encounter an emergency, I want them to be able to think quick on their feet, dont panic and follow prcedures. Not much different than a student at UPT

So, I dont know why so many people like to say "CAP is not the military" when is essence, it is very similar. thats why I joined it as a cadet and thats why most of the cadets I talk to joined it, because they felt it would prepare them for the military just like it did for me.

cadets(not matter what rank) are in a training status, Senior members (no matter what rank) are the trainers. cadets are not onthe same level as me. Is that a "I'm better than you" statement? No. Its a " I been there and you want to get to wher eI am so you should listen" i am not perfect but I do have experiences to share. Trust me, i wouldnt volunteer my time if I didnt feel I didnt have something to offoer. I dont do this as an ego trip. i do have a life outside of CAP. I volunteer to help youths. To guide them n the proper direction. To let them see wher I have been and tell them what lies ahead. And in order to accomplish thattask, cadets have to"play the game" just like Ihad to when I was a cadet.


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lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,667

« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2006, 04:36:11 PM »

I think part of the problem is that cadets aren't used to being lead by SMs... They are used to running their own program because their seniors don't or can't.

Cadidiots and even seniors often operate on "but I was taught/told..."  They will often actively resist when you tell them that what they learned is wrong and point them to an official publication.  They may do as you ask while you are present, but as soon as you leave they'll go back to doing it their way.

And unfortunatly....this is the right and proper thing for them to do.  We all operate on th e "I was taught/told" level.  If you boss says do it this way....that is the way you are going to do it.   If someone else (like at an encampment) says do it another way and shows you why, you are still going to revert back to the old ways once you leave that environment because back at home your commander says otherwise.

We cannot fix the problem of nonstandard training by "fixing" the leaner.   We have to fix the instructors.

Here is my suggestion to fix the problem.

First....NHQ must create a standard syllabus/course materials for encampments.  I mean all the way down to the lesson plans.  Leave plenty of room for local training but the hard core instruction must be exactly the same region to region and wing to wing.

Second...we need to get our commanders, leadership officers and DCC's to attend encampments AS TRAINEES.

This way we are ALL trained the same way and then we then pass on the training down to our squadrons.

Right now we have leaders that come from many different back grounds.  There are no real requirements in place to select qualified individuals.  A leadership officer at a cadet squadron may be teaching drill he learned from his days on a marching band or when they were in the Navy/Marines/Army/Air Force/Police Academy...etc.

Since there is no one giving the instructors standardized training then they are not in turn training their cadets in a standardized way.

We have to fix the real problem......correcting the cadets will only work while you are there.  Once you stop reinforcing your corrective training they will revert back to their prior learning.  You have to follow up by providing the INSTRUCTORS  the standardized training.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,986

« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2006, 05:38:50 PM »

  They may do as you ask while you are present, but as soon as you leave they'll go back to doing it their way.

And unfortunately....this is the right and proper thing for them to do.  We all operate on th e "I was taught/told" level.  If you boss says do it this way....that is the way you are going to do it.   If someone else (like at an encampment) says do it another way and shows you why, you are still going to revert back to the old ways once you leave that environment because back at home your commander says otherwise.

We cannot fix the problem of nonstandard training by "fixing" the leaner.   We have to fix the instructors.



Second...we need to get our commanders, leadership officers and DCC's to attend encampments AS TRAINEES.

  You have to follow up by providing the INSTRUCTORS  the standardized training.
[/quote]

Actually we already have tools to train commanders, DCCs, and so forth, with the program for senior leaders of cadets.

And excellent encampment syllabi exist, developed by a number of wings and available on-line (I believe Texas & NY are two examples)

As a practical matter, you will never get all these seniors to 'go through encampment as trainees'....some because they did it (or its equivalent) as CAP cadets, or far more rigorous basic training in the active military...other because they are past the age to run through obstacle courses, and so forth!

Still, a 'mini-encampment' weekend for senior leaders of cadets, stressing the areas not included in the senior program, would be worthwhile.

The underlying problem is the 'do it my way' culture...as you rightly observed, when the cadets return from encampment, their commanders will tell them forget what they were told there.

The reason for this is that CAP presently fosters an attitude of 'regulations are for other people', right up to the top levels of national leadership.

"Lead by personal example'.....if the folks in charge (whether at encampment, squadron, or higher up the chain) brush the rules aside when it suits theirconvenience, the ordinary members will follow where they are led!!

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lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,667

« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2006, 09:58:32 PM »

Actually we already have tools to train commanders, DCCs, and so forth, with the program for senior leaders of cadets.

And excellent encampment syllabi exist, developed by a number of wings and available on-line (I believe Texas & NY are two examples)

Yes....there are lots of good programs out there but they are standardized.  It they were would not see all this...."but I was taught at encampment ..." stuff that differs from wing to wing.  Standardization come from the top down.

Quote
As a practical matter, you will never get all these seniors to 'go through encampment as trainees'....some because they did it (or its equivalent) as CAP cadets, or far more rigorous basic training in the active military...other because they are past the age to run through obstacle courses, and so forth!

I'm not saying it has to be rigorous....I am saying we have to train all the SM's who work with cadet the CAP way of doing things.  The ex Marine is going to do it the way he was taught....he's not going to read the D&C manual, he is going to remember what Gunny Hardeman taught him at the Island.  The same is for the ex-Air Force Guy.  Then we got the never been in the military but I watch "full metal jacket" and "garden of stones" a lot.  Even if he picks up the manual and reads it....it is very difficult to learn drill that way.

Quote
The underlying problem is the 'do it my way' culture...as you rightly observed, when the cadets return from encampment, their commanders will tell them forget what they were told there.

The reason for this is that CAP presently fosters an attitude of 'regulations are for other people', right up to the top levels of national leadership.

"Lead by personal example'.....if the folks in charge (whether at encampment, squadron, or higher up the chain) brush the rules aside when it suits their convenience, the ordinary members will follow where they are led!!

I would not go so far to say that they are just ignoring the rules....but they may not understand them.  They do the best they can with their knowledge and no one has taken the effort to help them.....they yell at them for "just ignoring the rules". 

It turns into a vicious cycle.   The guy at the squadron who teaches it the way he remembers is accused of laziness (ignoring the rules), so he gets defensive and angry at anyone trying to feed him good information, which he then really does ignore because he is angry.  This then becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,986

« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2006, 04:24:45 AM »

Granted the folks at squadron level may not know or understand the regulations....however, there are numerous current instances of higher level commands doing as they please, without regard to regulations.
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flyguy06
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,195

« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2006, 02:09:35 AM »


I'm not saying it has to be rigorous....I am saying we have to train all the SM's who work with cadet the CAP way of doing things.  The ex Marine is going to do it the way he was taught....he's not going to read the D&C manual, he is going to remember what Gunny Hardeman taught him at the Island.  The same is for the ex-Air Force Guy.  Then we got the never been in the military but I watch "full metal jacket" and "garden of stones" a lot.  Even if he picks up the manual and reads it....it is very difficult to learn drill that way.
Quote

First of all understand that the CAP cadwet program was a big part in my decisio to join the military. Being a Cadet di dprepare me for Basic Training, Officer Candidate School and other training. I became a cadet in CAP to get that "military" experience in order to find out if the military was right for me, So I dont see why ot is bad to want to train CAP cadets in military style training. If you look at the CAP Drill manual., all it is is a copy of the Air Force Drill manual and thats a copy of the Army Drill manual. So it all ties in together. Most cadets I talk to want to go nto the military someday either as officers or enlisted. CAP is a youth program founded on military principles.

I think the problem is CAP National focuses so much on ES and they put the cadt progam to the side. Senior members dont really know how to run the cadet program and so they just let the senior cadets run it.

Now, it is  true Senior cadets should train junior cadets. But who is training the senior cadets? From my experiences ( I cant speak for CAP as a whole) a lot of senior cadets have pompas attitudes. They act like they have nothing to learn. That they are the experts. lets look at defenitions:

cadet
noun

1. A student undergoing preliminary training for the armed forces or police.
2. A school pupil training in a cadet corps.
3. formerly
A gentleman who entered the army without a commission, with a view to finding a career for himself.


officer    (f-sr, f-) KEY 

NOUN:

One who holds an office of authority or trust in an organization, such as a corporation or government.
One who holds a commission in the armed forces.
A person licensed in the merchant marine as master, mate, chief engineer, or assistant engineer.
A police officer

Senior Members are officers. cadets are trainees. No matter what rank or how long they have been in CAP, they are trainees. Senior Members that work with cadets should realize their roles as trainers and mold these cadets. I feel with my knowledge and experience, I have something to offer or esle I wouldnt bother volunteering. I can teach cadence calling. I can lead PT. I can teach what the various leadership positions entail. I dont do it to show off. I do it to prepare cadets (trainees) for their future. So that when they do get there, its not a surprise to them. 

SO, to sum up, I dont know why people think it is bad to teach or bring in military training to cadets since the whole premise of the cadet program is military based. And secondly , Senior members that work with cadets show take charge of their organizatons and senior cadet while experienced should realize they are still in a "trainee" category.

I probably have typos and so I apologize. I am back from overseas and look forward to gtting back involved with CAP and the cadet program.

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flyguy06
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,195

« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2006, 02:11:26 AM »

Wow, that last post came out backwards. Dont know how that happened
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BlackKnight
Seasoned Member

Posts: 221
Unit: SER-GA-043

Rome Composite Squadron
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2006, 06:04:07 PM »

The problem I see most often with seniors is that they are far more interested in conveying their "life experience" lessons to cadets than they are in applying the leadership/officership information from Leadership 2000.  It seems I'm constantly reminding seniors and parents that it's the "CAP Cadet Program", not the CAP "Home for Lost/Abused/Overweight/Troubled Boys and Girls".   

Most seniors who train/work with cadets (but aren't directly responsible for leadership lab) apparently have never bothered to crack open the CAP cadet leadership texts. Their personal "life experience" message is whatever the senior thinks is most important.  If they're pilots, it'll be pilot stuff.  If they're businessmen, it'll be corporate management stuff.  If they're ex-cadets, it'll be the "WIWAC" syndrome.  And if they're ex-marines or ex-army, it'll be Gunny Hartman "in your face" leadership with lots of shouting and exaggerated action.

Unfortunately, all of the above techniques can be made to work after a fashion. But there's only one CAP-approved leadership methodology, the one in Leadership 2000 2nd ed.  We seniors should lead by example, studying and applying ourselves what our cadets are expected to master.

And I believe this is why NHQ developed and rolled out the TLC (Training Leaders of Cadets) program.  Some squadrons (like mine!) should take the class sooner rather than later.  ;)  ;D
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Phil Boylan, Maj, CAP
DCS, Rome Composite Sqdn - GA043
http://www.romecap.org/
MIKE
Super Moderator

Posts: 5,460
Unit: LANTAREA

« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2006, 06:49:35 PM »

Even with the recently revised curriculum... TLC is not the answer to everything Cadet Programs.
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Mike Johnston
BlackKnight
Seasoned Member

Posts: 221
Unit: SER-GA-043

Rome Composite Squadron
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2006, 07:17:04 PM »

Even with the recently revised curriculum... TLC is not the answer to everything Cadet Programs.

Well of course not.  Neither is Leadership 2000 or CAPR 52-16. 
All I was suggesting is that TLC (since it's presented as a class) may help reign in those seniors who otherwise refuse to study the cadet leadership training materials already available to them.

What can I say? I'm an optimist until proven wrong.  ::)
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Phil Boylan, Maj, CAP
DCS, Rome Composite Sqdn - GA043
http://www.romecap.org/
flyguy06
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,195

« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2006, 07:30:06 PM »

Leadership 2000 is my "life experiences". Its the same thing I learned on OCS
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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Senior member
 


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