Historical Uniform Items

[RiverAux]

Well, yes.  You're taking your quote from what is apparently a post-war account.  Do you really expect them to have a spot on memory of what was a very tiny incident in the realm of their WWII careers?  Contemporary documents are generally a lot more reliable than people's memories.  There is a reason historians look that stuff up rather than depending solely on autobiographies and oral histories.  Even the best of people get facts wrong. 

The gist of that account is probably right and there probably were a few months where the flights were conducted in civilian clothes, but CAP members had been in uniform about 9 months before they were transferred to the Air Corps.  Thats just documented fact.   

[alamrcn]

Here is part of a very early "FAQ" pamphlet on the new Civil Air Patrol from the Office of Civilian Defense.

On the cover, notice the disk and tri-prop emblem without the "US". The date on the bottom I believe was typed in after printing, and is not the date of the document.



Zooming in on the right side of the first page is this...



It sounds to me like an announcement that uniforms are forthcoming, but an exact time-line isn't known.

I also have another note from National HQ telling members to purchase shirts and pants locally (I'm guessing they meant at department stores, etc.) and to stay as "uniform" as possible. This accompanies descriptions of the Army's khaki uniform and CAP distinguishable items such as buttons. I'd have to look again, but I believe these notes are all dated from 1942.

[jimmydeanno]

Here you go, May 25, 1942 - Purchase of Civil Air Patrol Insignia.  I knew I had put it up somewhere.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=4519.msg87986#msg87986

Seems to me that you wouldn't need insignia if you weren't wearing a uniform, no?

[jimmydeanno]

CAP members were using rank from the very start of the organization and it would surprise me a great deal if they didn't start using standard insignia before then even if the regs didn't catch up until later.

Something just to follow up on this.  Again, going back to the documents that I found previously.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=4519.msg87979#msg87979

2APR1942, document referring to the Wing Commander as "Mr." instead of Colonel, etc.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=4519.msg87986#msg87986
25MAY1942, National Commander's Signature does not include rank of any kind, just position. 

Documents from the same time period that are signed by Air Corps Officers include Rank.  Take this one for example: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=4519.msg87984#msg87984

[RRLE]

The pamphlet with the uniform question has a tell-tale that the original CAP insignia were not military insignia. It states that the insignia are being patented. You cannot patent military insignia.

36 USC 40306 grants CAP the corporation:

The corporation has the exclusive right to use the name "Civil Air Patrol" and all insignia, copyrights, emblems, badges, descriptive or designating marks, words, and phrases the corporation adopts. This section does not affect any vested rights.

That wording is slightly changed from the wording of the Act of July 1, 1946 which used the phrase

"now or heretofore used by the Civil Air Patrol

I also think you are making much ado about nothing regarding a uniform in the pre-Army Air Corps days. CAP was part of the Civilian Defense Corps and the Civilian Defense Corps had a uniform. The uniform is pictured but not described in the Handbook for Auxiliary Firemen published by the Office of Civil Defense in 1941.   The uniform is pictured in black and white but from other sources I know the helmet was white. It appears to look like a WWI helmet then it does a WWII helmet. The pants were bloused. The boots appear to be tall, almost mid-calf. The shirt or blouse was untucked. From other sources I believe the uniform was khacki and the boots black. It was worn with the appropriatee Civilian Defense Corps armband on the left arm and collar, cap and lapel insignia. From the Handbook of Civilian Defense, copyright 1942, the rank insignia for all ranks was worn (sewn or pinned) on the sleeves. CAP is mentioned in the Handbook on page 15-16.                                 

[RRLE]

Just found this: Regulations No. 2 Insignia. From the US Office of Civil Defense 1942. Click the pdf link to view the document. The CAP Basic Insignia, Pilot Wings and Observer Wings, along with the patent numbers, are listed on page 2.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Well, I think this mystery has been solved.

CAP, as a part of Civil Defense, would have been authorized to wear a Civil Defense uniform.  There WAS a prescribed CD uniform, and it was similar to the Army uniform.  My mother was a CD air raid warden, and once told me that if she had wanted a uniform, she could have bought one, but money was tight for our family during the War (and after the war, and during the next war, and still is tight, several wars later!)  She opted to use just the CD armband and white trench helmet.

But... CD was a non-combatant civilian organization, and when the CAP was transfered to the Air Corps, the CD uniform would have been considered civilian clothing.  That's why the CAP was placed in an Air Corps uniform with distinctive insignia. 

And... CD apparently authorized, but did not require, a uniform, so some CAP pilots may have flown in civvies until the Air Corps made them dress up.

[RiverAux]

Actually that Regulation #2 has no bearing on what we are discussing.  All it talks about is the general CAP prop and triangle insignia which we all know came from OCD and was similar to all the other WWII organizations and some flight crew wings. 

To demonstrate how easy evidence of pre-Army CAP uniform and rank use is to find, I opened up my copy of From Maine to Mexico and the first random page I looked at (p. 11) had an oral history account by Frederick Creasy who shoed up at the Atlantic City base on May 10, 1942 and said, "We wore full uniforms, were carefully groomed , and were most military in every way."  You can find other similar accounts of CAP members wearing uniforms and having ranks from the summer of 1942 on.   

More Flying Minutemen evidence:
Appendix A lists CAP deaths.  Several of these folks have military ranks and they died before we went to the Army:
1st Lt. CW Andrews  Oct. 30, 1942.
1st Lt. Guy Cherry Nov. 16, 1942
And others.

Kach, please go to your library or historical society and pull up some microfilm of a local newspaper and if you had a squadron in your town, I absolutely guarantee that if you look at issues from the second half of 1942 you will find many, many, many references to CAP members with military ranks and there is a decent chance you will find a photo of some CAP members in uniform during that period.  It will probably take you less than an hour (maybe more if you had a daily paper) to find this proof.  Really, I've gone through papers for many towns in my state for this period and its not hard to prove this. 

[RRLE]

To demonstrate how easy evidence of pre-Army CAP uniform and rank use is to find, I opened up my copy

What you haven't demonstrated is that the uniform and rank that you find in the oral histories were authorized. The only known, via regulation, uniform is the Civil Defense Uniform. The only proveable rank by regualtion (pre- Army Air Corps) is the CD rank.  It is possible that local units made up their own uniforms and insignia. Until you can point to a regulation, any oral history must remain suspect. Alfter all, someone in this thread called into question the recollection of Gen Hap Arnold.

[D2SK]

To demonstrate how easy evidence of pre-Army CAP uniform and rank use is to find, I opened up my copy

What you haven't demonstrated is that the uniform and rank that you find in the oral histories were authorized. The only known, via regulation, uniform is the Civil Defense Uniform. The only proveable rank by regualtion (pre- Army Air Corps) is the CD rank.  It is possible that local units made up their own uniforms and insignia. Until you can point to a regulation, any oral history must remain suspect. Alfter all, someone in this thread called into question the recollection of Gen Hap Arnold.

Does someone have a case of the Wednesdays?

[RiverAux]

Hmm, a nationwide conspiracy by which all the members of the CAP suddenly decided to wear military uniforms and use military rank in a time of war and fly armed airplanes in them without authorization?   Right.

This article certainly implies that Congress knew that CAP was using ranks and wearing uniforms in Feb. 1943.  http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=hdwKAAAAIBAJ&sjid=-U8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6288,1378691&dq=civil-air-patrol+and+uniforms

Here is a Sept. 1942 article that was apparently syndicated nationally that confirms Army approval to wear the uniforms and ranks (Look at the little blue continuation link at the upper right to read the rest).  http://digital.olivesoftware.com/Repository/ml.asp?Ref=VFdILzE5NDIvMDkvMTUjQXIwMDYwOQ%3D%3D&Mode=Gif&Locale=english-skin-custom

However, I'll let it go for now because if this isn't enough, I don't think the naysayers will  be satisfied by anything less than a time machine.  I'm really not kidding about how easy it is to find evidence that we were wearing Army uniforms and wearing Army ranks while still under OCD control.  Perhaps they wish to defend the proposition that the earth is flat next. 

[alamrcn]

I think EVERYONE here now agrees that Civil Air Patrol was not offically using military rank insignia until the Summer of '42.

The insignia in the original post began use before that, and was the only visual refernce of a member's "stature" within the program. There were LOTS of active duty Army running around amoung our members very quickly once the war really got going. They, the Army officers, were probably the ones that suggested incorporating their own rank insignia into our membership for easier identification - it was what they were familiar with, as apposed to small labels on the sleeve.

Even after the quick incorporation of Army rank insignia into Civil Air Patrol, those position tabs continued to appear on uniforms and in regualtions for another couple years.


On the subject of Civil Defense uniforms...

The National Civil Air Patrol Historical Committee, headed up by Colonels Lester Hopper and Louisa Morse, was "disbanded" at the end of the 1980s. Some on the committee were Year One members, or very close to it and had lots of contact with founding members. They have never mentioned any official record of Civil Air Patrol personnel wearing any uniform other than that of the AAC/AAF.

I've seen the armbands and helemts with our tri-prop emblem. While really neat and historical pieces in their own right, these were nothing more than home-builts. Made by members who did not have access to, or could not afford, the real custom CAP insignia and associated Army uniforms.

So, the offical record: Civil Air Patrol members wear never officially instructed to wear any of the Civilian Defense uniforms.