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Stonewall
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« on: April 10, 2009, 10:49:19 PM »

I've always kind of lived by this frame of thought, but not sure if it's in black & white.  Where cadets are not allowed to participate in outside activities like airshows, model rocketry, orientation flights, etc, until they've completed achievement one of the Cadet Program.

Any truth to this?  Or has this just been the way I do business based on my CAP upbringing...which I agree with by the way.
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DC
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« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2009, 11:13:07 PM »

I have never seen an actual rule to that effect, but it has held true for just about every activity I have seen/been to/heard of, with the exception of BCT and Camp Curry type activities.
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EMT-83
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« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2009, 11:14:20 PM »

We work exactly opposite - as soon as we can get a new cadet into uniform, we get them into an airplane. If possible, their first week as member.

There's nothing better than seeing the huge grin on a brand new cadet after landing on their first O-flight.
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MIKE
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« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2009, 11:15:20 PM »

The new Great Start thing seems to follow that logic of using activities like O-flights as a reward toward the end of training.

Me personally, I would let an C/AB come to an activity provided they can wear the uniform correctly and completely, and have membership card or proof of same as required... or to otherwise be able to be trusted out in public under supervision.

I went to my first SAREX as a n00b C/AB... I was in over my head at first but it was an eye opener for sure.
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Mike Johnston
Stonewall
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« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2009, 11:23:10 PM »

I agree with the Great Start mindset...using activities as a reward toward the end of training. 

I have seen airman basics remain as such for up to 9 months for a couple of reasons.  First, there was no recruit training program such as "T-Flight".  Second, if you can do all the cool stuff as a C/AB, why worry about advancing anytime soon?

If you have an 8 week recruit training program, it's not like a lifetime to wait. 

My questions comes from a parent inquiry about her son not being allowed to participate in an upcoming airshow.  He is 13, has never worn a uniform, just got his ID card last week, has pretty much shown up to meetings and stood in the back, and of course, is not a C/Amn.  Air show is next weekend.

I explained to mom that the entire family is highly encouraged to attend the air show, but since we are being abused used for parking, I didn't want the task of a young (small: XS/XS) cadet without the knowledge of customs & courtesies or how to wear the uniform, to roam around what is being called the largest air show in the country.

Note:  Although we're having an open house later this month and starting a T-Flight in May, we had 3 cadets who were allowed to just show up and stand around without any guidance.  I have since (last week) grabbed the 3 cadets and initiated an impromptu T-Flight.  They graduate the first Thursday in May.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2009, 11:39:06 PM »

By specific regulation, a cadet may not attend an encampment or be issued a 101 card before achieving Curry.

I personally believe that even parking lot duty falls into ES, and would not let non-curry cadets do anything outside
the recruiting booth.

I'm all for getting them involved, but the odds of a non-curry cadet having a proper uniform and understanding the program enough not to be a liability are pretty low.  There's no point to the risk of rushing things.

And don't get me started about cadets participating before they are actually members, I know of a number of situations where a new cadet was allowed to participate for months without being on the rosters, including banking tests and PT so that they actually have a Curry date before their join date - why the system even allows this is beyond me.  The excuse is anything from paperwork snafus to not having the money for the fees.  Thankfully these have been outside my AOR or it would have been a bigger issue.
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Stonewall
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« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2009, 12:30:40 AM »

BITD when I joined, my paperwork was signed by parents and commander and sent to NHQ in February.  I graduated T-Flight, earned my first stripe and was working on ES quals, all without a CAP ID card.  As a new cadet, I just figured it took a few months.

By the time encampment came along, I had applied, paid and been accepted.  This was August!!!

I attended encampment at Tyndall AFB in 1987 without a membership card.  My CC sent me with a copy of my signed application and a letter.  When I returned home from encampment my CAP ID was in the mail.

Of course, my CC assumed I had a CAP ID.  I assumed I was good to go, it just took that long to get an ID card.  Long before the days of instant notification and checks on a website.  Things were also a lot more flexible.  MMLs only came out once every 2 months, etc.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2009, 12:40:26 AM »

My first years of involvement w/ encampments we had a some cadet members with applications that were still wet, membership cards being faxed from NHQ, no uniforms, or, Lord help me - masking tape for name tapes.

I can recall wondering why were having problems w/ drill, etc., since they should have some kind of clue going in, but as a lowly new TAC and then even XO (in name but not function) I watched and noted but didn't know to make an issue of it.

When I took over I actually read 52-16 and a lot of things changed that year, although in some defense of my predecessors that was the year a new 52-16 came out and we were able to cut a lot of GOB dead-weight by just waiving the doc and saying things had changed (which is an awesome response to "we never did that before").

I now encourage the TACs and other staff to be fully versed in the regs so they can be extra eyes and keep us honest, but then again when I started they were referred to as "TAGS" (as in Tag-along). 
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LtCol057
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« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2009, 04:32:18 AM »

Personally, I think a cadet should have at minimum 3-4 months in CAP before they attend an encampment. I've seen too many come in in Apr or May, then go to encampment in June.  Most of the time (at least from what I've seen) they get frustrated and go home and don't come back to CAP.  They are unprepared for the drilling, the customs and courtesies, and the rigors of encampment. 

I don't really know who to blame. The parents or the commander?  I've seen parents that want the cadet to go away for a week so they can have a little vacation of their own. 

I've also seen cadets come to encampments with incomplete uniforms, told by their commander that they could get anything they're missing during encampment.  Hello!!! We were having encampment on a Marine base. No USAF uniform items available at the BX.  I remember one cadet, had been in 1 month. Only part of the blues that he had were the flight cap and the shoes.  His commander got an earful about that.

As far as other activities, I think they should have at least their Curry.   
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Eclipse
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« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2009, 02:30:20 PM »

^ I agree in principle, but the impact that an encampment has on a cadet, especially during their first year, can be so great that to limit participation, assuming they have met the minimums, isn't a good idea - especially in states that have only one per year.

Timing is everything with cadets, and maybe the next year its a family vacation, and before you know it we've got another 1-hit wonder Chief who considers quitting because he doesn't want to fall in with a bunch of 1-stripers.

I've had more than my share of cadets in the "alternate uniform" during graduation, and have gotten pretty good at making name tapes and tags in Photoshop.   ;D

A cadet showing up with a wet Curry to an encampment may have some catch-up to do, but by the end of the week he'll be way ahead of those who joined with him and stayed home.  Those less-prepared cadets are a good challenge for the flight staff as well, who are there to learn as much as the basics.
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Rob Sherlin
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« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2009, 03:06:46 PM »

  It's the same thing for a lot of senior members too! "Sticking around", going to your meetings and going through the course is just part of the agenda to make it.....That's how it is! CAP is not a weekend camp for cadets, or a social club for senior members. My SC told me there is a problem with attendance of both everywhere ( I go to every meeting whether I'm needed or not). Parents and new cadets, and seniors have to understand there is a commitment behind joining CAP (and it has to be of their own will). But, I don't think this is brought up in a lot of orientations for new people. The reason for the time period is to make sure you're serious about the whole thing!
  It's frustrating to me too! I allready have learned a lot of CAP on my own (and AFJROTC), I can pass phase 1 right now, but I still have to wait, and go through the motions to get my butterbars.
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ZigZag911
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« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2009, 05:51:34 PM »

I was involved with running encampments for years, and frankly it just struck me that possibly the answer is to designate a separate flight for the 'not-yet -or-the ink's-still-wet' Curry cadets....might even be a sensible place to put some of those first time C/MSGT-SMSGT-CMSGT (every encampment gets a couple of these, too -- heck, I was one back WIWAC!) as squad leaders & mentors.
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notaNCO forever
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« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2009, 06:18:15 PM »

I was involved with running encampments for years, and frankly it just struck me that possibly the answer is to designate a separate flight for the 'not-yet -or-the ink's-still-wet' Curry cadets....might even be a sensible place to put some of those first time C/MSGT-SMSGT-CMSGT (every encampment gets a couple of these, too -- heck, I was one back WIWAC!) as squad leaders & mentors.

That kind off destroys the ability to be competitive with other flights. It should be the squadron commanders job to decide if cadets are ready for encampment or not.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2009, 06:45:41 PM »

I was involved with running encampments for years, and frankly it just struck me that possibly the answer is to designate a separate flight for the 'not-yet -or-the ink's-still-wet' Curry cadets....might even be a sensible place to put some of those first time C/MSGT-SMSGT-CMSGT (every encampment gets a couple of these, too -- heck, I was one back WIWAC!) as squad leaders & mentors.

That kind off destroys the ability to be competitive with other flights. It should be the squadron commanders job to decide if cadets are ready for encampment or not.

That's how its supposed to work, however too many CC's treat their role like a rubber stamp, not even reading what they are signing.  The only recourse an encampment CC has when they show up is sending them home, which isn't going to make things any better for the cadet.
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flyguy06
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« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2009, 02:40:42 AM »

What is T-Flight? We like to get cadets started as soon as possible. One of my rules I had when I was DCC was a new cadet would get an O ride within 90 ddays of joining CAP
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DC
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« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2009, 05:50:34 AM »

What is T-Flight? We like to get cadets started as soon as possible. One of my rules I had when I was DCC was a new cadet would get an O ride within 90 ddays of joining CAP
Long story short, a 'T (training) Flight', also known as 'Basic Cadet Training', or 'Cadet Basic Training', is a strutured program used by some squadrons to indoctrinate new cadets in the ways of the Cadet Program. Cadets are taught essential subjects, like unifrom wear, customs and courtesies, drill, CAP History, etc, so on and so forth. Typically at the end of the program the cadets are given the opportunity to test for their first achievement. It serves to rapidly introduce the new cadets to CAP, preventing them from floundering around, trying to figure things out for themselves, and from holding the more advanced cadets in their flight back while they get up to speed. If run a certain way, T-Flight/BCT/CBT can also have the fringe benefit of serving as a great primer for Encampment.

There have been several threads on the subject, a forum search of 'T-Flight' or 'Basic Cadet Training' will probably get you a ton of info.

Also, feel free to PM me if you would like the specifics on my squadron's program, I'm always happy to share.
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Stonewall
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« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2009, 12:56:55 PM »

What is T-Flight? We like to get cadets started as soon as possible. One of my rules I had when I was DCC was a new cadet would get an O ride within 90 ddays of joining CAP

I'm not talking only orientation flights.  I'm talking any activity outside of regular meetings.  We don't allow new cadets, anyone who hasn't graduated T-Flight, to do anything other than attend meetings.  Of course, many argue with this because they think 8 or 9 weeks is a lifetime.  It's not, it's 8 or 9 meetings (16+ hours) into their membership.  After earning their first stripe through completion of T-Flight.  90 days is a long time for a cadet to be in CAP and not have their first stripe. 

Flyguy, you've often talked about your squadron struggling on the cadet side.  I think this is one of your problems.  Giving something for nothing.  Join?  Sure, no prob, we'll get you flying; take your time studying (on your own) and when you feel the time is right, take your test and we'll make you an airman.  Meanwhile, they've attended encampment, flown O-rides, and worn uniforms outside of meetings without proper insignia.

Back in 2004 while I was a squadron commander, I had a couple of parent members, who really didn't agree with the idea of not allow cadets participate until earning their first stripe.  I had to go TDY for a month for work (out of country).  The Deputy Commander for Seniors, whose son was a brand new T-Flight cadet, was in charge in my absence.  He had 6 T-Flight cadets attend the wing conference and banquet.  2 were in partial blues uniforms without nametags (well, his son wore his gray senior member nametag).  The others were in an array of civilian attire.  Acted like unsupervised children and didn't know protocols like standing at attention.

This is what T-Flight is all about.  Teaching and indoctrinating cadets into the program so there is no question about their place in the program.  No question on customs & courtesies or proper wear of the uniform.

And for the record, our last T-Flight prior to encampment will begin in May and finish 2 weeks before encampment.  I refuse to send cadets to encampment unprepared or unqualified. 
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flyguy06
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« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2009, 02:15:31 PM »

What is T-Flight? We like to get cadets started as soon as possible. One of my rules I had when I was DCC was a new cadet would get an O ride within 90 ddays of joining CAP
Long story short, a 'T (training) Flight', also known as 'Basic Cadet Training', or 'Cadet Basic Training', is a strutured program used by some squadrons to indoctrinate new cadets in the ways of the Cadet Program. Cadets are taught essential subjects, like unifrom wear, customs and courtesies, drill, CAP History, etc, so on and so forth. Typically at the end of the program the cadets are given the opportunity to test for their first achievement. It serves to rapidly introduce the new cadets to CAP, preventing them from floundering around, trying to figure things out for themselves, and from holding the more advanced cadets in their flight back while they get up to speed. If run a certain way, T-Flight/BCT/CBT can also have the fringe benefit of serving as a great primer for Encampment.

There have been several threads on the subject, a forum search of 'T-Flight' or 'Basic Cadet Training' will probably get you a ton of info.

Also, feel free to PM me if you would like the specifics on my squadron's program, I'm always happy to share.

No, we have BCT. Ihave just never heard it called T flight. We call it Basci Cadet Training and we have it for our group on a weekend
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flyguy06
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« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2009, 02:25:35 PM »

What is T-Flight? We like to get cadets started as soon as possible. One of my rules I had when I was DCC was a new cadet would get an O ride within 90 ddays of joining CAP

I'm not talking only orientation flights.  I'm talking any activity outside of regular meetings.  We don't allow new cadets, anyone who hasn't graduated T-Flight, to do anything other than attend meetings.  Of course, many argue with this because they think 8 or 9 weeks is a lifetime.  It's not, it's 8 or 9 meetings (16+ hours) into their membership.  After earning their first stripe through completion of T-Flight.  90 days is a long time for a cadet to be in CAP and not have their first stripe. 

Flyguy, you've often talked about your squadron struggling on the cadet side.  I think this is one of your problems.  Giving something for nothing.  Join?  Sure, no prob, we'll get you flying; take your time studying (on your own) and when you feel the time is right, take your test and we'll make you an airman.  Meanwhile, they've attended encampment, flown O-rides, and worn uniforms outside of meetings without proper insignia.

Back in 2004 while I was a squadron commander, I had a couple of parent members, who really didn't agree with the idea of not allow cadets participate until earning their first stripe.  I had to go TDY for a month for work (out of country).  The Deputy Commander for Seniors, whose son was a brand new T-Flight cadet, was in charge in my absence.  He had 6 T-Flight cadets attend the wing conference and banquet.  2 were in partial blues uniforms without nametags (well, his son wore his gray senior member nametag).  The others were in an array of civilian attire.  Acted like unsupervised children and didn't know protocols like standing at attention.

This is what T-Flight is all about.  Teaching and indoctrinating cadets into the program so there is no question about their place in the program.  No question on customs & courtesies or proper wear of the uniform.

And for the record, our last T-Flight prior to encampment will begin in May and finish 2 weeks before encampment.  I refuse to send cadets to encampment unprepared or unqualified. 

I hear what you are saying, butby regs, I cant stop a member from attending an encampment. There is no reg that says a cadet has to have his first stripe before they can do anything. I agree with you though that if a cadet goes to an activitity, they need to come correct. A proper uniform and a proper attitude. But understand the communtiy I serve is a lot differnt than the communtiy you serve.

Our senior members have the goal of getting our young people involved as soon as possible. If we dont, they will leave and not come back.  A lotof our cadets are here because of their parents. They dont know the good points of CAP because they dont really know CAP. I give them O rides to show them what CAP has to offer. Hopefully this will encourage them to do well in the program and continue to strive. The cadets in our squadorn do not study independantly, We teach each chapter during meetings and give test every other month to al of them together. Yes, it sounds like school and I would preferit not be that way but givne the circumstances it has to be right now. We have no cadet officers or NCO's . its a struggle just to get the cadets we have to participate in weekend actitivites. Its a struggle to get them to participate in O rides. Basically the cadets dont know what they dont know. Theydont know the good stuff about CAP becuae they have no backgroundin it. Theydont have parents that were inthe military or pilots that can tell them about such things. So these are totally new experiences for them and they shy away from it. So I have to force it upon them to show them that is fun.

So, yes it takes me to take abrand new cadet and take him to a SARex or wing conference in order to stimulate his interest than that is what I am going to do. Yes it would be nice if he came to us with an interest but we dont get those kinds of kids all the time.
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Stonewall
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« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2009, 02:30:06 PM »

I hear what you are saying, butby regs, I cant stop a member from attending an encampment.

WOW!

Our senior members have the goal of getting our young people involved as soon as possible. If we dont, they will leave and not come back.  A lotof our cadets are here because of their parents. They dont know the good points of CAP because they dont really know CAP. I give them O rides to show them what CAP has to offer. Hopefully this will encourage them to do well in the program and continue to strive. The cadets in our squadorn do not study independantly, We teach each chapter during meetings and give test every other month to al of them together. Yes, it sounds like school and I would preferit not be that way but givne the circumstances it has to be right now. We have no cadet officers or NCO's . its a struggle just to get the cadets we have to participate in weekend actitivites. Its a struggle to get them to participate in O rides. Basically the cadets dont know what they dont know. Theydont know the good stuff about CAP becuae they have no backgroundin it. Theydont have parents that were inthe military or pilots that can tell them about such things. So these are totally new experiences for them and they shy away from it. So I have to force it upon them to show them that is fun.

So, yes it takes me to take abrand new cadet and take him to a SARex or wing conference in order to stimulate his interest than that is what I am going to do. Yes it would be nice if he came to us with an interest but we dont get those kinds of kids all the time.

And your squadron struggles?  It struggles based on the way you operate now, right?  Well, if it doesn't work, fix it.  Try what I am suggesting.  It is proven to work.  I have relieved command after building a squadron by these means, to a new commander who opposed and did it his way (same as yours).  A year later his squadron was in the same boat as your squadron.
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RogueLeader
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« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2009, 02:36:51 PM »

I hear what you are saying, butby regs, I cant stop a member from attending an encampment.

Cite please.
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<redacted>

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flyguy06
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« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2009, 02:48:54 PM »

I hear what you are saying, butby regs, I cant stop a member from attending an encampment.

Cite please.

I dont know what youmean. If a cadet wants to apply to an encampment he can as long as the Squadron CC approves it and i am not the Squadron CC. Our CC will approve anyone.
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RogueLeader
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« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2009, 04:24:03 PM »

Oh, I thought you were saying that there was a reg saying that you couldn't bar them before the Cadet earned their first stripe.  my bad.
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LtCol057
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« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2009, 05:43:35 PM »

If your squadron CC approves everyone that wants to attend encampment whether they are ready or not, then IMHO he/she needs to be relieved.  I feel the DCC, because they are normally more familiar with the cadets, has a duty to recommend that certain cadets not be allowed to attend.  I've seen cadets come to encampments solely because the CC wanted them to, even tho the cadets themselves felt they were not ready.  The squadron CC felt it made him look better to the wing CC if he had 100% of his cadets attending encampment. 

I've also seen a squadron CC tell the parents of an autistic cadet that the staff were well trained in how to deal with autistic children and that the cadet would be fine.  Even heard one squadron CC tell parents that we knew how to deal with their cadet that has uncontrolled paranoid schizophrenia.  Not a mental health professional here.

But for that reason, I feel ALL squadron CC's that have cadets should be required to attend at least one encampment so they know firsthand about encampments.  For years, we always had at least one senior member go to encampment for the duration if any of our cadets were attending.  Just my opinion here.
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τε
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« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2009, 07:29:16 PM »

In case no one noticed, cadets are required to complete Achievement 1 in order to be eligible for encampment, according to CAPR 52-16.
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flyguy06
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« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2009, 07:35:16 PM »

If your squadron CC approves everyone that wants to attend encampment whether they are ready or not, then IMHO he/she needs to be relieved.  I feel the DCC, because they are normally more familiar with the cadets, has a duty to recommend that certain cadets not be allowed to attend.  I've seen cadets come to encampments solely because the CC wanted them to, even tho the cadets themselves felt they were not ready.  The squadron CC felt it made him look better to the wing CC if he had 100% of his cadets attending encampment. 

I've also seen a squadron CC tell the parents of an autistic cadet that the staff were well trained in how to deal with autistic children and that the cadet would be fine.  Even heard one squadron CC tell parents that we knew how to deal with their cadet that has uncontrolled paranoid schizophrenia.  Not a mental health professional here.

But for that reason, I feel ALL squadron CC's that have cadets should be required to attend at least one encampment so they know firsthand about encampments.  For years, we always had at least one senior member go to encampment for the duration if any of our cadets were attending.  Just my opinion here.

I dont disaagree with you. I think Senirs that work with cadets should attend an encampment as well. I have been to about ten. But our squadrons culture is not set up that way. Culture meaning the way its een done for 20 plus years is very loose. Too loose if you ask me.
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Stonewall
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« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2009, 07:50:31 PM »

In case no one noticed, cadets are required to complete Achievement 1 in order to be eligible for encampment, according to CAPR 52-16.

Was mentioned on page 1.

By specific regulation, a cadet may not attend an encampment or be issued a 101 card before achieving Curry.
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