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sparks
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« on: March 28, 2009, 11:11:06 PM »

I've heard that the PAWG commander has been terminated by his region commander as requested by NHQ. Anyone hear about this or have any idea what he did to get bounced?
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Big_Ed
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« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2009, 11:16:36 PM »

I heard about this last night.  No, no reason given at all.  Also nothing formal has been presented yet.
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Edgar R. Flick, Lt. Colonel, CAP
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CAPTShaw
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« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2009, 11:38:08 PM »

I have heard a couple of variations on this rumor, nothing for sure, some thing with group 2 and also something with NER, but they are only rumors.

So I would suggest that we wait and see before we fuel the rumor mill.
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Capt David Shaw, CAP SQ 606
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JC004
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« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2009, 02:59:20 AM »

eServices says Lt Col and doesn't list Wing CC as duty position...
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RiverAux
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« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2009, 03:02:34 AM »

Was this the same guy that thought the answer to any paperwork problem was to threaten to disband the squadron or was that another Wing CC? 
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JC004
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« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2009, 03:10:18 AM »

Was this the same guy that thought the answer to any paperwork problem was to threaten to disband the squadron or was that another Wing CC? 

There was a lot to that.  PAWG is complicated anyways...  :-\
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JC004
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« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2009, 03:24:30 AM »

Col David Mull, NER CV is CC of PAWG apparently. 
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CAPTShaw
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« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2009, 03:44:27 AM »

There was a lot to that.  PAWG is complicated anyways...  :-\

Please explain how it is complicated?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2009, 02:50:20 PM by MIKE » Report to moderator   Logged
Capt David Shaw, CAP SQ 606
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JC004
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« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2009, 04:07:07 AM »

There was a lot to that.  PAWG is complicated anyways...  :-\

Please explain how it is complicated?

Well it's kinda...complicated how it's complicated.  The thing that annoys me the most is the aversion to change.  For almost 10 years of attending group and wing staff meetings, I've constantly heard "make sure the wing mail gets to the members" and similar things, but they don't find a solution, they just keep repeating themselves and expecting a different result.  There is much more to PAWG, but I don't care to post most of it on CAPTalk.  Among other reasons, I think it would be unfair to the people in question if I am wrong on something.

Also, contact me about IT stuff?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2009, 02:50:42 PM by MIKE » Report to moderator   Logged
Big_Ed
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« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2009, 12:28:26 PM »

"complicated"  :)      I like that one.      "Aversion to change" is good too.   It's a very large wing and some of the wing staff members have been at their posts since before I showed up.  I agree with Colgan, I've heard the same thing about the wing mail.  When I was the Cadet Leadership School commander, I had to resort to calling unit commanders directly to advertise the school in the early 90's.

Paradigm is another word I'd toss into the salad.

I'm still waiting on something from the leadership to the membership about this..

The 25 April Commander's Call ought to be interesting.
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Edgar R. Flick, Lt. Colonel, CAP
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dwb
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« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2009, 12:47:27 PM »

It's not unusual for long-time Wing staff members to be resistant to change.  They know the way they did it in the 1970s, they want to keep doing it that way.  A lot of times, it's because they just don't know any other way, and they're too proud to admit it.

That's not a critique of PAWG, just a general observation that can apply to a lot of Wings.

Ultimately, you need an enlightened Wing CC and an ambitious Chief of Staff to put some of these folks out to pasture; the CC to understand it's needed, and the CS to go out and pilfer new talent from the squadrons/groups.

In the Old Days in NY, because the Wing HQ was on Long Island, you could pretty much forget about the Wing knowing you existed if you were out in Buffalo.  Technology and new leadership has helped to mend that rift, and these days we have Wing staff from all over the state.  But it came at the expense of a lot of Old Boys on the Island that were used to having things their way.

CAP ain't Burger King; you remain adaptable, or you become obsolete.
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JC004
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« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2009, 08:27:37 PM »

"complicated"  :)      I like that one.      "Aversion to change" is good too.   It's a very large wing and some of the wing staff members have been at their posts since before I showed up.  I agree with Colgan, I've heard the same thing about the wing mail.  When I was the Cadet Leadership School commander, I had to resort to calling unit commanders directly to advertise the school in the early 90's.

Paradigm is another word I'd toss into the salad.

I'm still waiting on something from the leadership to the membership about this..

The 25 April Commander's Call ought to be interesting.

Our fundamental problem is a failure to communicate and adapt.  It may be complicated, but it really boils down to that.  Since June of 2006, I have pushed the importance of our web site with the wing commanders and wing staff.  Most don't care.  The commanders didn't listen and seize the opportunity.  I did several reports of my ideas, why they mattered, and what we could do to make them happen, but they fell on deaf ears.

You have heard the wing mail thing.  I'm sure you have heard them talk about recruiting and retention as if simply mentioning it will make it happen.  Constantly they do the same thing over and over, expecting something to change.  My position is that if you hound the wing mail, recruiting/retention, vehicle reporting, etc., for YEARS and don't see a change, I'm pretty sure you need to adapt your strategy.

Communication and adaptation - case in point: I've hounded this before and I'll do it again.  Since obviously saying "get the wing mail to the members" isn't working, maybe we should do something different?  I proposed, on numerous occasions since 2006, an e-mail newsletter that goes monthly to all members of PAWG who have e-mail.  Not everyone has it, but it would be enough to get the information flowing.  The Commonwealth is 46,055 square miles.  We have 2,319 members as of today.  There are 6 (well, eight) groups.  There are something like 70 chartered units (not sure of the number).  HOW exactly is sending out wing mail once per month to each unit a more effective way of communicating than using DIRECT communication on the web?  I'd love to just start this newsletter myself, but I don't have the resources.  They don't even give me the current publications for the wing web site.  I've asked for a complete set of publications since 2006 and STILL have not received them.

There are many solutions.  We have the manpower.  We have the talent.  We just have to put it to work for PAWG.  We have a ton of sysadmins in PAWG.  Why can't I print a simple PDF correctly in our EOC?  Put a half dozen of them to work modernizing and maintaining the EOC.  Spend two weekends doing it and it'll be mostly done.

Our resources are incredible in PAWG, but the new commander will need to capitalize on them, communicate to the membership, adapt to change, and LISTEN to the members.  I hear ideas everywhere I go in PAWG.  Great ideas.  Then I hear them die.  It's very sad.

They complain about recruiting and retention constantly.  My contention is that if they change the attitude, they will get their recruiting and retention.

A couple of years ago, I had a Lt Col tell me that his 30(?) years of experience meant he knew better.  I only had about 8 at the time, and was a lowly junior officer, so what do I know?  Strange, but I could probably give you a dozen (or more) examples of why he was wrong.  Doing something for 30 years doesn't mean you've learned much (or even anything).  Besides, getting ideas from those with a fresh perspective is incredibly valuable.  At work, I have a set program of soliciting the ideas of new people when they come in and after they have been with us for a little while.  It is amazingly useful. 

I can give you a laundry list of ideas that were killed by PAWG HQ. Most of them had great potential.

PAWG needs to capitalize on its potential and unleash a storm of new ideas, programs, and initiatives.  It CAN be done regardless of the politics, to SPITE CAP nationally being far behind other organizations of its size in things like marketing and IT.  I've seen the potential on the ground and it kills me to see it squashed.  If the new Wing CC is willing, I will do everything I can to set that fire and make PAWG all that it can be.
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CAPTShaw
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« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2009, 09:20:09 PM »

James,

So are you confirming that the PA Wing Commander has been removed from his Position?
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Capt David Shaw, CAP SQ 606
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JC004
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« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2009, 09:38:58 PM »

James,

So are you confirming that the PA Wing Commander has been removed from his Position?

That is correct.

I am awaiting whatever memo to post on the web site.  In the meantime, I will just assume command of the wing.  At least for Wednesday.  I did last year.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2009, 11:16:46 PM by MIKE » Report to moderator   Logged
Big_Ed
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« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2009, 10:57:06 PM »

I really thought some kind of statement would have been made by now.
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Edgar R. Flick, Lt. Colonel, CAP
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JC004
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« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2009, 11:52:17 PM »

I really thought some kind of statement would have been made by now.

I am kind of used to them not saying anything.   :-\
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CAPTShaw
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« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2009, 11:59:06 PM »

If it happened on Friday or over the weekend, nothing should be expected until Monday.
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Capt David Shaw, CAP SQ 606
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CAPTShaw
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« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2009, 12:12:43 AM »

James,

So are you confirming that the PA Wing Commander has been removed from his Position?

That is correct.

I am awaiting whatever memo to post on the web site.  In the meantime, I will just assume command of the wing.  At least for Wednesday.  I did last year.

So on Wednesday when your in Command, you will be able to solve all the problems (jk)
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Capt David Shaw, CAP SQ 606
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« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2009, 12:24:19 AM »

James,

So are you confirming that the PA Wing Commander has been removed from his Position?

That is correct.

I am awaiting whatever memo to post on the web site.  In the meantime, I will just assume command of the wing.  At least for Wednesday.  I did last year.

So on Wednesday when your in Command, you will be able to solve all the problems (jk)

Correct.  In 24 hours I will fix the whole thing and everyone will have a shiny new van.  On Thursday, I move onto Region.  Friday I have to take off to work on a new business venture, but on Monday I will take NHQ and Pylon will fix our marketing and branding.
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Big_Ed
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« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2009, 12:38:43 AM »

well, at least it's a plan. lol   ;D
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Edgar R. Flick, Lt. Colonel, CAP
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JohnKachenmeister
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« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2009, 12:43:31 AM »

Sounds like "Change and Hope" to me!   ;D
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Another former CAP officer
BillB
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« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2009, 12:44:36 AM »

When Colgan takes over NHQ, I'll provide applications for several organizations for those rushing to quit CAP.
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Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104
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« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2009, 01:30:11 AM »

When Colgan takes over NHQ, I'll provide applications for several organizations for those rushing to quit CAP.

Thank you.  Meanwhile, I will have NHQ run off a mass printing of CAP applications.  Pylon's marketing plans will be very effective, I am confident of that.  First we're going to plug the holes, find what needs to be fixed, leave crap alone that doesn't need to be fixed (read: making more uniforms and changing nameplates, nametapes, and/or adding/removing "U.S." from things).  Then we start on more fun stuff.  w00t!  I'll provide you a list of those likely to want out.  They will probably be saying "you can't fire me! I quit!"

Our most important initiative will be the new purple BDU and 30 varieties of shoulder cords for senior members.  We will add 16 new ribbons and change uniforms at least once per week.  As part of the 10-year strategic plan, we'll worry about missions and things like o-flights or NCSAs in say...9 years?  It'll be fantastic.  Also, we will immediately implement as many confusing regulations as possible.  Make it more complicated, more expensive, and more confusing.  Perfect strategy to retain members. 

In the meantime, the PAWG CoS expects to have some sort of formal notification by tomorrow that we can post on the web.
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flyguy06
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« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2009, 03:04:29 AM »

Why do you need notification? You guys have been on here gossiping about it. Its out there now.
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JC004
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« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2009, 04:06:26 AM »

Why do you need notification? You guys have been on here gossiping about it. Its out there now.

1.  I like to pester them into giving me things to put on the web site.  A couple of times a year, I am successful.

2.  I thought it would be good to let the non-CAPTalk members know who their commander is.
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M. Allen Applebaum
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« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2009, 04:37:23 AM »

To All Concerned,
The PAWG CC, Col. Mark Lee has not been terminated. There has been a change in command of the Wing. Col Dave Mull, NER CV has replaced Mark on a interim basis.
This is my first appearance in this forum and I wanted you to Know what had happened from a source that has knowledge (not guess work of the situation).
I will check this from time to time over the next few weeks if you have concerns about the PAWG. As you proably know I commanded the PAWG twice and NJWG as an interim commander. I have a good solid pulse on the Wing situation.

Very respectfully,

M. Allen Applebaum, Colonel, CAP
Commander Group 800, SEP, PAWG
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M. Allen Applebaum
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« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2009, 04:53:13 AM »

All Concerned,
Wait to see what comes from Lt Col. Walter Vertreace, CAP before you start letting the word spread without knowledge of the facts. Col. Vertreace is a solid CAP citizen and will only share the pertinent accurate facts with the Wing.

Very Respectfully,

M. Allen Applebaum, Colonel, CAP
Commander, Group 800, SEP, PAWG
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Big_Ed
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« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2009, 11:35:34 AM »

Thank you for taking the time to come here and post.

The information vacuum hurts more than helps.

Respectfully
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Edgar R. Flick, Lt. Colonel, CAP
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flyguy06
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« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2009, 12:10:33 PM »

I agree. Why do you all come on this public forum and start rumors before you know al the facts? Personally I am not from PA and I could really care less. Its not my business. But If you all do it about PA, you may do it about GA and that would be my business.

Can we just not start rumors and post things until we have offical word. I hate rumor mills and the internet is such a powerful influential medium.
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RiverAux
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« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2009, 12:35:44 PM »

Hmm, removing a Wing Commander from their position before their term has expired sure sounds like a termination to me. 
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CAPTShaw
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« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2009, 01:22:48 PM »

M. Allen Applebaum did not say removed he said change.  Those are two different meanings.

I guess we will just have to wait for the official statement.

But we can still give ideas to JC004 for while he is the man, LOL.

Hmm, removing a Wing Commander from their position before their term has expired sure sounds like a termination to me. 
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 02:02:53 PM by MIKE » Report to moderator   Logged
Capt David Shaw, CAP SQ 606
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RiverAux
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« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2009, 01:31:06 PM »

We're just talking semantics -- the point is that he was fired, terminated, forced out, removed or whatever you want to call it and is basically no longer in command of the Wing. 

The only thing that would make a difference was if this was just a temporary thing, such as stepping down for a short time to deal with a health problem.  If that were the case, I would find it odd that they turned command over the regional Vice Commander rather than the Wing Vice Commander.   
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τε
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« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2009, 01:35:37 PM »

The problem with using the word terminated is that it implies to many membership termination. When such confusion can occur, one should use more precise terminology.
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Gunner C
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« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2009, 02:21:28 PM »

Relieved is probably the best term here.  But let's wait and see . . . RUMINT kills.
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JohnKachenmeister
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« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2009, 02:30:50 PM »

So... Colgan's out?

Dang!  I was SO hoping he'd design us a new uniform!  >:D
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gistek
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« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2009, 02:31:48 PM »

For all we know it might have been at Col. Lee's request. There may have been a change in his situation that makes it difficult to give PAWG all the work needed.

I salute anyone who knows when he or she has reached their "Peter Principle" point and works to find a way to fill the gap.

"Peter Principle" http://www.answers.com/topic/peter-principle "Theory that people rise in their career in every hierarchy to the level of their own incompetence; based on the book The Peter Principle and Why Things Always Go Wrong by Lawrence J. Peter. Work in organizations is accomplished by those employees who have not yet reached their level of incompetence."
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JC004
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« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2009, 03:46:26 AM »

The problem with using the word terminated is that it implies to many membership termination. When such confusion can occur, one should use more precise terminology.

Agree.  My official sources said change and that was it.  Doesn't matter to me...As long as I know what's supposed to go on the web site and the members know who their corporate officer is.  I don't know the reason, don't care either.  I don't have anything against Col Lee and don't much care either way if he comes or goes or what.  He always seemed like a decent kind of guy when I talked to him over the years.  I didn't give any thought to the term before it was brought up, so yes, we should be careful what is used.  It would be unfair if it were for a health reason or something.  According to eServices when I looked to see who the CC is, yes he's a member.  We will see what happens.  I don't care if I never know why...I'm not much into gossip (which is why I only reported what eServices said before I talked to the official folks, and not what was going around by word of mouth).  Fact is he isn't currently Wing CC and nothing has been released at the wing level, only by a couple of the group commanders.  I hope whatever happens, it doesn't create any rifts or mass resignations or anything like that.  I seek change, but couldn't care less who the staff is...I just want them to change their attitudes toward change and adaption.  That's the key to an effective organization.

So... Colgan's out?

Dang!  I was SO hoping he'd design us a new uniform!  >:D

You'll have them, Kach.  When I get to National, we are so going with the purple BDUs and the shoulder cords.  Shoulder cords ON the BDU even!  It'll be great.  As we well know, mass uniform changes at each and every National Board meeting are essential to our success as an organization.  You'll love my new badge designs too.  They're all done in MS Paint and will look exactly that way when Vanguard produces them and maybe even considers shipping them to the members. 
« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 04:24:06 AM by JC004 » Report to moderator   Logged
jpizzo127
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« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2009, 03:05:06 PM »

Is it true that PA Wing was grounded last year?

We've heard that several times out here, and according to what I was told, it was due to the wing failing the USAF Eval.

As I said, I do not know if this is true. Its what we've heard for about 6 months, maybe longer.
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JOSEPH PIZZO, Captain, CAP
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« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2009, 03:14:27 PM »

Our most important initiative will be the new purple BDU and 30 varieties of shoulder cords for senior members. 

Dang!  I was SO hoping he'd design us a new uniform!  >:D

So I guess that means all the shoulder cords I just bought were wasted money. ??? ;D
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David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
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_
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« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2009, 03:37:12 PM »

When I get to National, we are so going with the purple BDUs

I'm all for that.  I come from the land of purple camo when it's football season.  I already have the pants so I'll just need the blouse. 

None of these people is me:Photo of ravens fans in purple camo
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gistek
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« Reply #40 on: April 01, 2009, 02:01:18 AM »

USAF found problems with PAWG's safety documentations and required every member to complete some safety training and develop a better ORM plan. I don't remember offhand how long it took for everyone to complete the training.
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flyerthom
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« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2009, 03:58:28 AM »

When I get to National, we are so going with the purple BDUs

I'm all for that.  I come from the land of purple camo when it's football season.  I already have the pants so I'll just need the blouse. 

None of these people is me:Photo of ravens fans in purple camo

Wow. since when does AARP have frats?


In all due seriousness, maybe we should hold off on the speculation out of respect for Cols Lee and Applebaum?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 01:52:24 PM by MIKE » Report to moderator   Logged
TC
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« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2009, 05:19:34 AM »

I believe that JC004 should be brought up on charges for impersonating a Colonel in the Civil Air Patrol, I am sure he knows what I am talking about does anyone else?

I think his punishment should be to forever wear a PINK baseball cap, and provide us with a picture with in 12 hours form the time of this post.

I submit as evidence http://www.pawingcap.com/

Case Closed
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Capt David Shaw, CAP SQ 606
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JC004
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« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2009, 05:38:08 AM »

Blah blah blah.  I gave fair warning that I would be assuming command.  Be quiet and get ready for your new van.  It comes today.  We started to tow the old ones as you can see on the site.
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Hookedonlemons
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« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2009, 07:03:20 AM »

Congratulations Sir!

Will you be moving covertly to the other wings and instituting new vans and pink hats for them aswell?

What about pink shoulder cords?
I believe a matching pink hat/shoulder cord combo would really envelop the CAP spirit!
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CAPTShaw
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« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2009, 12:59:49 PM »

Blah blah blah.  I gave fair warning that I would be assuming command.  Be quiet and get ready for your new van.  It comes today.  We started to tow the old ones as you can see on the site.

We already have a new one HEHE, it is Brand NEW
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Capt David Shaw, CAP SQ 606
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cappawg
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« Reply #46 on: April 01, 2009, 01:10:55 PM »

So who else is going to leave the staff?
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cnitas
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« Reply #47 on: April 01, 2009, 01:26:51 PM »

So who else is going to leave the staff?

 :D
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Mark A. Piersall, Lt Col, CAP
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JC004
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« Reply #48 on: April 01, 2009, 02:30:59 PM »

No more pink hats.  They blew a gasket already.  Blah.  Get your fill from other organizations.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/162367/top_10_april_fools_day_fake_news_items.html
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CAPTShaw
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« Reply #49 on: April 01, 2009, 04:03:41 PM »

You must be a butter bar by now then ahhh

No more pink hats.  They blew a gasket already.  Blah.  Get your fill from other organizations.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/162367/top_10_april_fools_day_fake_news_items.html
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Capt David Shaw, CAP SQ 606
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« Reply #50 on: April 01, 2009, 08:02:39 PM »

Well, there you have it.  He was basically reassigned.  The RM does it all the time.  Not everyone can command a wing.  I hope he does well wherever he chooses to serve.  I've seen really good officers hamstrung with staff officers who he couldn't find replacements for.  You'd think that it would be easier than that, but CAP is notorious for being three miles wide and one inch deep.  In the RM there's all sorts of trained talent ready to fill in, in CAP you really have to look hard and long, sometimes to no avail.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #51 on: April 01, 2009, 08:24:09 PM »

The truth is always so much less interesting than the conspiracy theories...
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flyguy06
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« Reply #52 on: April 01, 2009, 09:29:17 PM »

Man, you guys are puttin this guys business out in the public for real arent ya'll? Wow, for a volunteer organization some of you all are very cut throat. Can the guy have some dignity and keep it in house among PAWG members? Me bring a GAWG member has no need to know this information,

CAP senior leadership positions are NOT politicalpositions where they are accountable to the people. I used to want to be in the senior leadership, but if folks are going to put my busines out there, wel, CAP doesnt really pay me enough for the public humiliation. So forget it
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JC004
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« Reply #53 on: April 01, 2009, 10:15:36 PM »

I don't know that I would have done it this way unless it was a particularly serious or public offense, but this is what they chose to put out on the interwebs, so I guess it is what it is.
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sparks
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« Reply #54 on: April 01, 2009, 10:17:52 PM »

Becoming a wing commander or even a group commander can and usually does involve some politicking to gain the position. No, the people don't vote so maybe a better word might be "gamesmenship". The concern for how the position change was handled emanates from what happened during Pineda's reign. He removed commanders on a whim, usually when they didn't support his latest idea.  No one wants a return to that style of leadership.
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flyguy06
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« Reply #55 on: April 01, 2009, 11:03:37 PM »

"politics" for a volunteer organization? Thats a new concept for me. I mean maybe I just dont get it. At any rate, isnt it a commanders perogatie to remive subordinate commanders? Does he need some type of approval to do that? I mean as a military commander myself I want subordinates that are going to support me and my ideals.  Someone thatis going to work with me and not always against me. Maybe its different in CAP. i dont know
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dwb
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« Reply #56 on: April 01, 2009, 11:36:45 PM »

Any time you have > 2 people involved in something, there will be politics. Politics is simply the social dynamic of an organization, there's nothing inherently bad about it.

I suspect you're referring to dysfunctional politics, where personal squabbles win out over merit or logical arguments. But that doesn't appear to be going on in this case.
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flyguy06
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« Reply #57 on: April 02, 2009, 01:04:34 AM »

The point is maybe we shouldnt be going around tainting this guys name. Maybe he doesnt want people to know the reason he was relived. Myabe its personal. Would you want somebody to know you failed at your job? I think not. Especially people all over the nation that you dont even know
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RRLE
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« Reply #58 on: April 02, 2009, 10:54:38 AM »

Quote
The point is maybe we shouldnt be going around tainting this guys name.

RH was using the termination as an alleged example of corruption by the National Commander. In order to clear her name and by implication that of the organization, it may have been necessary to put the truth out on the net. FWIW - RH has not posted or cleared up his allegation.
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IceNine
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« Reply #59 on: April 02, 2009, 05:39:03 PM »

The point is maybe we shouldnt be going around tainting this guys name. Maybe he doesnt want people to know the reason he was relived. Myabe its personal. Would you want somebody to know you failed at your job? I think not. Especially people all over the nation that you dont even know

<WE> didn't taint his name or tell anyone why he was relieved, that was done by the appropriate level of command.

And there is no "tainting" happening here.  There are a few thousand members in PAWG do you really think that press releases are supposed to be private?

These announcements are designed specifically to stop the scuttle that happens in this organization.  It would have been a much worse situation for this gent if members were allowed to continue expressing their hearsay, and opinion about the situation.

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flyguy06
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« Reply #60 on: April 02, 2009, 06:34:09 PM »

The point is maybe we shouldnt be going around tainting this guys name. Maybe he doesnt want people to know the reason he was relived. Myabe its personal. Would you want somebody to know you failed at your job? I think not. Especially people all over the nation that you dont even know

<WE> didn't taint his name or tell anyone why he was relieved, that was done by the appropriate level of command.
The appropriate level of command dod not post it on CAPTalk for the world to see.

And there is no "tainting" happening here.  There are a few thousand members in PAWG do you really think that press releases are supposed to be private?
Thats my point. Its a PAWG issue, why do the rest of us non PAWG members need to know about it?


These announcements are designed specifically to stop the scuttle that happens in this organization.  It would have been a much worse situation for this gent if members were allowed to continue expressing their hearsay, and opinion about the situation.

I just think its inappropriate topost negative news on a public website about an individual. Its almost libel and its just plain wrong.
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CAPTShaw
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« Reply #61 on: April 02, 2009, 09:24:21 PM »

I just think its inappropriate topost negative news on a public website about an individual. Its almost libel and its just plain wrong.

That would be about 98% of all postings to any public web site! Mainly our Media Sites!
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« Reply #62 on: April 02, 2009, 09:28:53 PM »

yes, and that is fine for people that get paid. i am just aying it is a deterent to want to grow in a volunteer organization if youthink people are going to look atyou with a microscope. Its just not worth it in a organization where I do not get paid. CAP should be fun.and not burdensome
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Cecil DP
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« Reply #63 on: April 02, 2009, 11:50:20 PM »

Colonel Lee was not maligned. The message from Col Mull simply explained the circumstances and that Col Lee was given time to correct deficiencies and wasn't able to do so. There have been several posting regarding PAWG's failing safety and ORM requirements over the last year. This may have been the reason, but not shown in the Mull message. In the regular military, a Commander can relieve a subordinate commander for simply losing faith in his ability to command. I think that is the bottom line here. You can't fire a Wing-so you fire the Wing Commander.
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Michael P. McEleney
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« Reply #64 on: April 03, 2009, 11:52:10 AM »

The removal of a corporate officer deserves SOME sort of explaination.  If it were a squadron or group commander that would be one thing, but when you are somebody with the authority to enter the organization into contracts, administer finances, set national policy, etc. it is a different ballgame.  By putting this explaination out, it opens the doors for all to see what the corporation is doing to protect itself and its assets that the members and the general public are helping to pay for.

As for being almost libel, that would only be the case if what was written was false.  Generally, when something false is written about why somebody being given the axe, it is written in the more positive sense than the truth.
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MICHAEL A. CROCKETT, Lt Col, CAP
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« Reply #65 on: April 03, 2009, 11:58:59 AM »

The removal of a corporate officer deserves SOME sort of explaination.  If it were a squadron or group commander that would be one thing, but when you are somebody with the authority to enter the organization into contracts, administer finances, set national policy, etc. it is a different ballgame.  By putting this explaination out, it opens the doors for all to see what the corporation is doing to protect itself and its assets that the members and the general public are helping to pay for.

As for being almost libel, that would only be the case if what was written was false.  Generally, when something false is written about why somebody being given the axe, it is written in the more positive sense than the truth.

    I think for it to be libel you also need to say something that you know is false intentionally. Personally I think that when someone like a wing commander is relieved their should be a explanation but it should be brief and not heavy on the details. As much as I like gossip like everyone else he it is wrong to make statements about people without them being able to defend themselves and their actions.
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« Reply #66 on: April 03, 2009, 01:24:10 PM »

My point about the libel was that the statement (knowingly or not) had to be false in the first place to even approach libel.  I agree with you on keeping it brief, which I think this explaination was as brief as it could have been kept.  It gave very general information with a little detail as to why it was done outside the normal 1 year probationary period allowed by regulations, which further keeps the doors open to the workings of the corporation.
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« Reply #67 on: April 04, 2009, 12:09:35 AM »

The removal of a corporate officer deserves SOME sort of explaination.  If it were a squadron or group commander that would be one thing, but when you are somebody with the authority to enter the organization into contracts, administer finances, set national policy, etc. it is a different ballgame.  By putting this explaination out, it opens the doors for all to see what the corporation is doing to protect itself and its assets that the members and the general public are helping to pay for.

As for being almost libel, that would only be the case if what was written was false.  Generally, when something false is written about why somebody being given the axe, it is written in the more positive sense than the truth.

I agree that it deserves some sort of explanation........to the PAWG members, not on a public website
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« Reply #68 on: April 06, 2009, 11:23:43 AM »

A wing commander of any wing is a corporate officer for the entire corporation.  While they are the primary one in a given state, that does not diminish their ability to impact the rest of the corporation.
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MICHAEL A. CROCKETT, Lt Col, CAP
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« Reply #69 on: July 09, 2009, 01:14:05 AM »

As of 8 July 2009, Col Mark Lee has been reinstated as the Pennsylvania Wing Commander by the authority of the MARB and the Constitution and Bylaws of Civil Air Patrol.
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JC004
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« Reply #70 on: July 09, 2009, 03:58:28 AM »

That's good I guess.  *shrug*  I'm kind of indifferent to the whole thing since I don't understand what really happened, especially considering he was reinstated.  That means it was out of whack.   :-\
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PHall
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« Reply #71 on: July 09, 2009, 05:02:45 AM »

As of 8 July 2009, Col Mark Lee has been reinstated as the Pennsylvania Wing Commander by the authority of the MARB and the Constitution and Bylaws of Civil Air Patrol.

Cite please. Not saying you're making this up, but I would like to see something in print.
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IceNine
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« Reply #72 on: July 09, 2009, 05:20:15 AM »

Will likely have to wait until after the 1st of August

They have been pretty good about posting the MARB findings in e-services once a month.

I'm sure there will be something coming down but that will outline the MARB actions anyway
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CAPTShaw
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« Reply #73 on: July 09, 2009, 05:58:32 AM »

Commander     Colonel David Mull
Vice Commander - North    Major Bret J. Stemrich
Vice Commander - South    Major Sandra E. Brandon

This is what happened with PA WING
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« Reply #74 on: July 09, 2009, 07:00:28 AM »

As of 8 July 2009, Col Mark Lee has been reinstated as the Pennsylvania Wing Commander by the authority of the MARB and the Constitution and Bylaws of Civil Air Patrol.

NHQ PERSONNEL ACTION 2009-50 dated 8 July 2009 reports the above action.  It has been distributred to the NEC and the individuals concerned.
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« Reply #75 on: July 09, 2009, 10:57:36 AM »

For those that need "proof".

The reasons for the termination and reinstatement will be posted to the "MARB" page on eservices soon.  All MARB decisions are published for the general membership.

* PERSONNEL ACTION 2009-50 PA Wg.pdf (20.4 kB - downloaded 78 times.)
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« Reply #76 on: July 09, 2009, 01:12:20 PM »

WOW, now this could be fun?
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« Reply #77 on: July 09, 2009, 01:13:32 PM »

Commander     Colonel David Mull
Vice Commander - North    Major Bret J. Stemrich
Vice Commander - South    Major Sandra E. Brandon

This is what happened with PA WING
Funny, if PA was divided into two I would have thought it would have been East and West rather than North and South based on the shape of the state.
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« Reply #78 on: July 09, 2009, 01:39:35 PM »

I though that too, but who am I
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« Reply #79 on: July 09, 2009, 05:20:12 PM »

If Pennsylvania Wing is still divided into three groups west, central and east having two deputy commanders, especially if they go north and south, doesn't make any sense at all. The state is better defined by the three groups (and maybe the greater Philly area separate from any of the three).
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REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now in marketing.
DBlair
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« Reply #80 on: July 09, 2009, 05:29:35 PM »

If Pennsylvania Wing is still divided into three groups west, central and east having two deputy commanders, especially if they go north and south, doesn't make any sense at all. The state is better defined by the three groups (and maybe the greater Philly area separate from any of the three).

I was thinking the same thing. In a state that is mainly East-West, there isn't much logic in structuring it North-South. Also, why even have more than one Vice Commander for a section of the Wing- isn't that pretty much what Group Commanders are for?
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DANIEL BLAIR, Lt Col, CAP
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« Reply #81 on: July 09, 2009, 05:51:50 PM »

PAWG is actually divided into 6 geographic groups; 3 in the north and 3 in the south.  The last time there were two vice commanders, it was an "east-west" split.  The way PAWG/politics are handled, the east -west division worked best.  I guess Col Mull was used to a "north-south" split since  he is from New Jersey. 
Not to assume anything however, Col Lee will probably make some changes.
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Big_Ed
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« Reply #82 on: July 09, 2009, 06:29:56 PM »

I kinda like the north south split.  I work in propane distribution and we split up PA into I-80 (north) & PA Turnpike (south) zones.

I think it would be refreshing to not have the "east - west" thing we did in the 80's & 90's

My $.02
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« Reply #83 on: July 09, 2009, 06:42:05 PM »

The problem with putting Philadelphia and Pittsburgh in the same domain is that all the resources will get sucked to Philly. When I worked in Pittsburgh, I remember that elections always hinged on how Philly voted, and that more money was spent over in the eastern side of the state than the western. Pittsburgh might as well be in a different state if you live in Philadelphia.

So the same would likely happen when PHL and PIT -area units are competing for CAP resources under the same commander. And almost everyone in between will get lost (Harrisburg no, but Somerset, Johnstown, York, et al). Let the PHL people share/compete for resources with Scranton, Allentown and other places much closer.
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CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group and wing PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member, at region level now
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now in marketing.
PHall
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« Reply #84 on: July 10, 2009, 01:28:29 AM »

For those that need "proof".

The reasons for the termination and reinstatement will be posted to the "MARB" page on eservices soon.  All MARB decisions are published for the general membership.

Thank you. There has been more then one occasion when a rumor, with absolutely nothing to back it up, has been posted as being "proof".

Thank you again for the source document.
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Turk
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« Reply #85 on: July 11, 2009, 04:11:27 PM »

If Pennsylvania Wing is still divided into three groups west, central and east having two deputy commanders, especially if they go north and south, doesn't make any sense at all. The state is better defined by the three groups (and maybe the greater Philly area separate from any of the three).

Shoot, I thought PAWG was divided into Greater Philly, Greater Pitt, and Hawk!!!  ;D
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