Gray slacks/white shirt uniform

[Gunner C]

I'll go along with that when we authorize long hair and trimmed beards for cadets.  There should be ONE standard for grooming IMO.  There are those who will say two standards are better than no standards at all.  I find this a bit silly. 

[sardak]

I think maybe allowing beards with the CSU...as long as they don't look like Grizzly Adams or ZZ Top

I'm not the one that steered this bus towards the lock, but this might get me accused of hitting the accelerator (too good to be left to the archives)
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1935.msg32503#msg32503

Back on topic, keep the gray slacks/white shirt, for those who don't meet the military look requirements for whatever reasons, keeping in mind that we are a civilian auxiliary. A wing commander once said that this is a volunteer organization only until you join.

OTOH, true story. At a wing conference, the state SAR coordinator, who is a retired USAF Lt Col, was talking to me after he made a presentation. He asked who all attendees were. I replied just CAP, why? He said that with all the different uniforms he saw, there might have been several other groups present.

Mike

[Rob Sherlin]

 Was I off topic? I'm sorry if I was. I thought the post was about the grey and whites being eliminated now that there's a CSU. I was simply stating that due to the different requirements for the two, you'd have to allow beards with the CSU, so there can be a "military type" uniform for the "bearded" members to wear if they choose, as long as they don't wear it looking like a caveman, or moses, or something....Or is this that you have a problem with beards or something?

  You can PM me if you want to respond to that....Let's not sidetrack into talking about beards on this post topic..

[Rob Sherlin]

 Sorry! the first time I hit that link, it didn't turn up in the right place! I hit it again, and saw the picture........HA!HA!HA!.....That's exactly what I meant!........."Go an' get yourself some cheap sunglasees.......Oh, Yeah!"....HA!HA!HA!

[billford1]

Has anybody heard talk of discussion about phasing out the gray slacks aviator shirt uniform at NB?

[Hawk200]

I'll go along with that when we authorize long hair and trimmed beards for cadets.  There should be ONE standard for grooming IMO.  There are those who will say two standards are better than no standards at all.  I find this a bit silly. 

In all fairness, I think we ought to consider it. With the provision that it has to be a beard, and just a case of obviously not shaving.

As long as we have different uniforms, there will be different standards for each of them. We don't need to boot resources just because someone chooses a beard.

[capchiro]

As I have addressed several reasons to maintain the gray/white combo above (availability/price and even the cut of large sizes), the thread has degenerated into the time honored lean,mean,wannabes versus the fat,fuzzy,cuddles.  To one and all, image is how you portray yourself while doing the job, not by one uniform or any uniform.  Professionalism is not just looks.  We must remember that most people that we run into or deal with have no idea as to what CAP is.  So they do not expect us to look military or any particular way.  Commercial pilots wear aviator shirts.  Almost all general aviation pilots wear something like polo shirts and slacks.  I have never seen a general aviation pilot wear a flight suit.  We are a civilian volunteer group.  We are not the Air Force.  Until we are required to meet Air Force standards and that includes age and education, we will never look like Air Force, nor should we.  We are to offer a softer edge to aviation than the Air Force does.  We are here to help people, not be in condition to defend our country or be able to suck up 7 G's.  We are what we are and if some members are not happy, let them join the Coast Guard Aux or the real military.  In the mean time, until Reg's change, please quit trying to influence opinion and make people feel unwelcome and unwanted in our very small organization.  We don't need to lose good members because of a handful of young, marathon running, military wannabes.  As usual, JMHO..     

[Nathan]

Convert the shoulder mark color, to grey, and it will be a deal.

Agreed.

I know I'm jumping on this wagon late since I'm just turning senior here in a few days. I just find it odd that once again, CAP seems to have found a way to require completely different uniform items on two similar uniforms, requiring more $$. I'm not entirely sure what the purpose of switching from gray epaulets to blue was, and while I like the blue, I think that since the gray has already been distributed and does indeed look good on both the white shirt and the blue coat, the change was unnecessary.

And... just to make my radical opinion known, I think we should can EVERY uniform but the CSU, to be honest. Stick everyone in it, cadets, seniors, fit, overweight, clean-shaven, hermit bearded... whatever. It is, in my opinion, a very professional, militaristic uniform that I think everyone can feel comfortable identifying with, and it would ensure that we are all in the same uniform at all times. No more of this silliness with having the seniors in five different uniforms at any given time.

I am not a fan of the BBDU's, but I imagine that if my dream were to come true, we would be making that the single uniform as well.

JMHO

[notaNCO forever]

Convert the shoulder mark color, to grey, and it will be a deal.

Agreed.

I know I'm jumping on this wagon late since I'm just turning senior here in a few days. I just find it odd that once again, CAP seems to have found a way to require completely different uniform items on two similar uniforms, requiring more $$. I'm not entirely sure what the purpose of switching from gray epaulets to blue was, and while I like the blue, I think that since the gray has already been distributed and does indeed look good on both the white shirt and the blue coat, the change was unnecessary.

And... just to make my radical opinion known, I think we should can EVERY uniform but the CSU, to be honest. Stick everyone in it, cadets, seniors, fit, overweight, clean-shaven, hermit bearded... whatever. It is, in my opinion, a very professional, militaristic uniform that I think everyone can feel comfortable identifying with, and it would ensure that we are all in the same uniform at all times. No more of this silliness with having the seniors in five different uniforms at any given time.

I am not a fan of the BBDU's, but I imagine that if my dream were to come true, we would be making that the single uniform as well.

JMHO

If they do that I hope CAP is ready to lose about have of the cadets if they don't provide the CSU for the cadets. Because now days people don't exactly have the money to go out and buy the CSU

[Nathan]

Convert the shoulder mark color, to grey, and it will be a deal.

Agreed.

I know I'm jumping on this wagon late since I'm just turning senior here in a few days. I just find it odd that once again, CAP seems to have found a way to require completely different uniform items on two similar uniforms, requiring more $$. I'm not entirely sure what the purpose of switching from gray epaulets to blue was, and while I like the blue, I think that since the gray has already been distributed and does indeed look good on both the white shirt and the blue coat, the change was unnecessary.

And... just to make my radical opinion known, I think we should can EVERY uniform but the CSU, to be honest. Stick everyone in it, cadets, seniors, fit, overweight, clean-shaven, hermit bearded... whatever. It is, in my opinion, a very professional, militaristic uniform that I think everyone can feel comfortable identifying with, and it would ensure that we are all in the same uniform at all times. No more of this silliness with having the seniors in five different uniforms at any given time.

I am not a fan of the BBDU's, but I imagine that if my dream were to come true, we would be making that the single uniform as well.

JMHO

If they do that I hope CAP is ready to lose about have of the cadets if they don't provide the CSU for the cadets. Because now days people don't exactly have the money to go out and buy the CSU

Wouldn't make that much of a difference. Many squadrons don't have access to a supply, so cadets have to go buy their BDU's anyway.

And to be honest, after over six years of service in CAP, I am still waiting for my free blues uniform.

[notaNCO forever]

Convert the shoulder mark color, to grey, and it will be a deal.

Agreed.

I know I'm jumping on this wagon late since I'm just turning senior here in a few days. I just find it odd that once again, CAP seems to have found a way to require completely different uniform items on two similar uniforms, requiring more $$. I'm not entirely sure what the purpose of switching from gray epaulets to blue was, and while I like the blue, I think that since the gray has already been distributed and does indeed look good on both the white shirt and the blue coat, the change was unnecessary.

And... just to make my radical opinion known, I think we should can EVERY uniform but the CSU, to be honest. Stick everyone in it, cadets, seniors, fit, overweight, clean-shaven, hermit bearded... whatever. It is, in my opinion, a very professional, militaristic uniform that I think everyone can feel comfortable identifying with, and it would ensure that we are all in the same uniform at all times. No more of this silliness with having the seniors in five different uniforms at any given time.

I am not a fan of the BBDU's, but I imagine that if my dream were to come true, we would be making that the single uniform as well.

JMHO

If they do that I hope CAP is ready to lose about have of the cadets if they don't provide the CSU for the cadets. Because now days people don't exactly have the money to go out and buy the CSU

Wouldn't make that much of a difference. Many squadrons don't have access to a supply, so cadets have to go buy their BDU's anyway.

And to be honest, after over six years of service in CAP, I am still waiting for my free blues uniform.

I was referring more to the CSU for the price issue. I do see your point with the BBDUs, and when we do switch to ABUs I think allot of people will buy them instead of ABUs do to the price. The main reason I would not want to go to just the CSU is because it would look like we are distancing from the USAF even if we aren't.

To remain on topic I like the idea of doing away with the gray and white uniform if we change the regs on facial hair.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Ditch every dress uniform but the CSU?

Who's auxiliary is CAP? The Air Force's, right? So doesn't that mean CAP members should wear the Air Force uniform? Yeah, that's what I thought.

Cadets shelling out a load of money for a uniform that'll be irrelevant in a couple of years? And that they'll grow out of? A logistical nightmare.

Not sure any of that makes sense. Stick to the Air Force uniform and a non-military-looking alternative for those who don't/can't comply with weight/grooming standards. Ditch the Pineda Suit, which maybe HWSRN's Ranger Corps can pick up instead (aren't they looking for a uniform, and didn't he design it anyway?). Keep it simple.

In communities where there's no Air Force presence, it's CAP that "flies the flag." We should be proud of, foster and develop our relationship with Daddy Air Force, uniforms included. Why must this be so complicated?

[Slim]

Ditch every dress uniform but the CSU?

Who's auxiliary is CAP? The Air Force's, right? So doesn't that mean CAP members should wear the Air Force uniform? Yeah, that's what I thought.

Cadets shelling out a load of money for a uniform that'll be irrelevant in a couple of years? And that they'll grow out of? A logistical nightmare.

Snipped the HWSRN rhetoric.  He's no longer here, he no longer matters.

Why the angst against corporate uniforms (any of them)?

Are you that hung up on a suit of clothes that you would walk out in disgust if you couldn't wear the Air Force style uniform?

Once again, I'm sincerely sorry that you think my 26 years worth of contributions to the organization are meaningless because I can't meet weight standards.  Or Dave Bowles's contributions to the organization for however long he's been doing this, because he prefers to have a neatly trimmed beard.

Put yourself in the place of a lot of us CSU wearers.  I like the fact that we're treated a little less like second-class members because we have a uniform that is mostly the same as yours, that allows us to be recognized for our achievements and service.  The only thing that would make this complete is to ditch the grooming requirements for the CSU by stipulating a reasonable hair length and neatly trimmed beards.  Then, the white/gray can go the way of the smurf suit and the Mexican party shirt.  At that point we'd look like two teams instead of four or five.


FWIW, I'd vote to keep the blazer combo and the polo with khakis as "Soft" uniforms for those times when a military style uniform isn't appropriate or necessary.

[Nathan]

Who's auxiliary is CAP? The Air Force's, right? So doesn't that mean CAP members should wear the Air Force uniform? Yeah, that's what I thought.

What's your logic here? Just because we do missions for the USAF means that we have to dress the same as them? Their uniform is designed for THEIR mission, not ours. Their uniform represents USAF history and tradition. Our uniform represents the same thing, despite the fact that we are not the USAF, and we have been around longer than the USAF. We can, despite a belief that seems to be shared by you and many other members of this board, perform the EXACT same missions while wearing a uniform that allows CAP to present its own unique heritage.

Cadets shelling out a load of money for a uniform that'll be irrelevant in a couple of years? And that they'll grow out of? A logistical nightmare.

I'm not sure what you're implying. It is far more likely that the CSU would be relevant for far longer than any military uniform. The military seems to like to change uniforms every decade or so. CAP really has no need to do that or keep up with that; the only reason we do is because the USAF does it. If we had our own uniform, we wouldn't have to change it for a thousand years if we didn't want to.

And as I have said before, just because your squadron is fortunate enough to have a supply that can simply issue uniforms to every cadet does NOT mean that other squadrons (maybe even MOST squadrons) have that same resource. Many, MANY cadets have to buy their own uniforms anyway, and I think that a white shirt is actually going to cost LESS than a military blues shirt will.

Why must this be so complicated?

Actually, I'm trying to simplify it. One dress uniform, one work uniform. That's it. You want more than two uniforms. YOUR solution is more complicated than mine.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Redundant post. Grrr.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

(NOTE: I meant "whose," not "who's," in my most recent post on this thread. How'd I do that?)

Aw, come on. Those of you who wear the CSU don't see that the CSU complicated everything?

-- New epaulets.
-- New name tags, then a second revision.
-- New shirt.
-- New coat.
-- New windbreaker.
-- If you're prior military, a second rack of ribbons that excludes military decorations.
-- And so on.

The only thing that the Pineda Suit has in common with any CAP uniform is the pants, and they're the Air Force blue pants to begin with.

We already had a white-and-gray uniform for those who opt not to wear the Air Force uniform. Why did we need another uniform, except to maybe subvert the Air Force on the gray service-coat epaulets? Yip, like a hole in the head.

Slim, if you think I have antipathy for any other uniform but the Air Force's, you've ignored my entire body of posts here. CAP just didn't need the extra complication of the CSU, period. Especially since its existence subverts several regulations to begin with. After 25 years in CAP, I've seen enough diddling with the corporate combinations to know that if you want to keep costs down, stick with the Air Force uniforms. In no way does that discount the service of CAP members who can't meet standards to wear the Air Force uniforms.

Nathan, in case you've forgotten, CAP is the Air Force's auxiliary. The Air Force obviously wants to bring CAP closer to the fold, or at least one of their bigwigs told the National Board that. And we insist on doing things to separate ourselves? The uniform may seem like a lot of cloth to you, but it's an emblem, and symbols mean a lot. The Air Force uniform helps bring us closer, and legitimizes us as a part of the Total Force. (It's also less expensive and more readily available.)

For anyone to insist that CAP ditch the Air Force's uniforms is to say we should forsake the preponderance of our uniform history -- wearing the mother service's uniforms with different insignia on them.

To insist that some of us believe we can't carry out CAP's missions without the Air Force uniform is B.S. -- many CAP members have carried out CAP missions in other combinations for years. So what?

Yes, we've been around "longer than the USAF," but remember that the Air Force's predecessor is older than CAP. The separate Air Force has been around since 1947, but it grew out of the Army's aviation service. We danced with the Army Air Forces before Congress split them from the Army Ground Forces. America's air force, whatever its name, is older than CAP. Only the separate Air Force is younger.

To insist that the CSU will be "relevant far longer than any military uniform" is to ignore years of CAP's diddling with non-Air Force uniforms, and the seemingly constant tinkering CAP is doing with the CSU. (How many of you still have guyabera shirts and smurf suits in your closets?)

(Side note: Cadets in the CSU? Well, there goes the Air Force-funded free cadet uniform program.)

We'll never move away from the Air Force uniform, at least unless we lose our status as the Air Force's auxiliary and move to Homeland. The secondary uniform was perfectly fine as the whites-and-grays with the blazer. Why mess with that? Just to mess with it?

[Grumpy]

Gawd, has anybody heard about a pending funeral for this horse?

[Eclipse]

(Side note: Cadets in the CSU? Well, there goes the Air Force-funded free cadet uniform program.)

Its a different shirt.  I'd be willing to bet VG could handle that.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

(Side note: Cadets in the CSU? Well, there goes the Air Force-funded free cadet uniform program.)

Its a different shirt.  I'd be willing to bet VG could handle that.

Vanguard may, but would the Air Force? I'd venture that answer is "no."

[Always Ready]

(Side note: Cadets in the CSU? Well, there goes the Air Force-funded free cadet uniform program.)

Its a different shirt.  I'd be willing to bet VG could handle that.

Oh I'm sure they would...but not for free.