Gray slacks/white shirt uniform

[Always Ready]

Having a beard does not effect anything we do.

Image is everything.

By your argument there's very little reason to wear any uniform at all.  Just come as you are and "git 'er done".

We're more than a bunch of vigilante SAR guys.  We're a paramilitary auxiliary of a military branch.  The majority of our funding, resources, and operational role comes either directly or indirectly through big brother blue.

With that comes the responsibility to look professional and uniform.

You only have to look at the vast majority of similar services, PD/FD/Military/EMS/SAR/NSCC/ACA/Young Marines/ROTC, etc.,  both professional and volunteer, to see where the consensus on this is.

Organized services that allow for anything other than clean shaven (w/ mustache) and short hair are definitely the minority in this equation.

Agreed, image is everything, but by your reasoning, everyone who doesn't meet weight and grooming standards and isn't a cookie cutter person, needs to be kicked out because they don't fit the image of a perfect CAP member (which I would like to know what that is? a 50 something year old pilot? That's what I think of when I think about CAP SMs). There are countless active duty military members whom the military allows to wear uniforms, but we don't. I had at least four members, possibly more, in my previous squadron who were in that predicament. Try telling an active duty AF Lt Col that he couldn't wear AF style uniforms...it doesn't end well.

I never said that we shouldn't wear a uniform. I, for one, am one of the few SMs in my squadron that wears a uniform to ALL CAP activities (and it's not the bloody polo either!). I also push others to wear uniforms and wear them properly. If you want to pick a fight about that, find someone else.

Whether something looks good or not is all in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I find that when morbid obese women wear tight fitting clothing, I have a tendency to barf in my mouth. Some people think that image of a woman is heavenly. It's all about what you think.

It is also a society issue. Not all that long ago, beards were common place and it was socially unacceptable to not have one. Then it changed to everyone must be clean shaven. In some societies, you are not a man if you don't have a beard.

It's about how you present yourself. I've been offended more times by a person in a business suit than I have by someone in coveralls and a ball cap. YMMV

[SarDragon]

Those of you who choose to wear a beard, long hair, pony tail, etc., are doing so because it makes a statement about who you are that you want the public to notice.  It doesn't matter what that statement is, its a statement.

Wrong answer, Bob. The "statement" ended over thirty years ago. It's a comfort issue now.

I have a beard these days because shaving makes my face hurt. My beard is really tough, and if I shave anywhere close to every day, my face stays red and sore all the time. It's been that way since I started shaving regularly at 20.

I gave shaving my entire face a last shot about ten years ago, and it wasn't pretty. I took the beard off on a Saturday, rested Sunday, then shaved every day until Friday. Technique is not an issue. I've used electrics (all three varieties), and various blade razors. None of them work well for sustained use.

So, why do you dislike beards? I don't do my job any differently whether I'm clean shaven or not, so that shouldn't be an issue. I maintain the same basic over quality of appearance either way, as evidenced by the pictures above.

And lastly, my sweetie likes me better with my beard, so that makes it alright with the world.

[dbarbee]

>>Those of you who choose to wear a beard, long hair, pony tail, etc., are doing so because it makes a statement about who you are that you want the public to notice.  It doesn't matter what that statement is, its a statement<<

I find such a broad statement like this to be absurd and stereotypical. You're no more qualified to decide why I wear a beard than I am to decide why you dispise them so much.

[Always Ready]

And lastly, my sweetie likes me better with my beard, so that makes it alright with the world.

Agreed! If only we could use that rationale with everything else  

[Hawk200]

I have a beard these days because shaving makes my face hurt. My beard is really tough, and if I shave anywhere close to every day, my face stays red and sore all the time. It's been that way since I started shaving regularly at 20.

I gave shaving my entire face a last shot about ten years ago, and it wasn't pretty. I took the beard off on a Saturday, rested Sunday, then shaved every day until Friday. Technique is not an issue. I've used electrics (all three varieties), and various blade razors. None of them work well for sustained use.

Just out of curiousity, would you have any objections to a directive to keep your beard a certain length? Would it be a deal breaker?

I ask, because as far as standards go, there would have to be something. Beards down to the chest could be considered an issue on safety grounds.

[ol'fido]

I believe that we should be neat and clean whatever we wear in CAP or out. That's just good manners.  I have been in CAP long enough to see all sorts, sizes, and shapes of senior members along the way. At the end of the day, however, the true measure of professionalism(at least to the people whose opinions I care about) is KNOWING YOUR JOB THOROUGHLY AND DOING IT TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY. "IT DON'T GOT A LOOK PRETTY BUT IT'S GOTTA BE DONE".

[dwb]

There's always the golf shirt.

[SarDragon]

I have a beard these days because shaving makes my face hurt. My beard is really tough, and if I shave anywhere close to every day, my face stays red and sore all the time. It's been that way since I started shaving regularly at 20.

I gave shaving my entire face a last shot about ten years ago, and it wasn't pretty. I took the beard off on a Saturday, rested Sunday, then shaved every day until Friday. Technique is not an issue. I've used electrics (all three varieties), and various blade razors. None of them work well for sustained use.

Just out of curiousity, would you have any objections to a directive to keep your beard a certain length? Would it be a deal breaker?

I ask, because as far as standards go, there would have to be something. Beards down to the chest could be considered an issue on safety grounds.

Not at all. I had to maintain a certain standard in the Navy, and still stay closr to that standard. If my beard and/or hair are too long, I don't wear a uniform to my weekly meetings. This doesn't happen too often.

[Hawk200]

I have a beard these days because shaving makes my face hurt. My beard is really tough, and if I shave anywhere close to every day, my face stays red and sore all the time. It's been that way since I started shaving regularly at 20.

I gave shaving my entire face a last shot about ten years ago, and it wasn't pretty. I took the beard off on a Saturday, rested Sunday, then shaved every day until Friday. Technique is not an issue. I've used electrics (all three varieties), and various blade razors. None of them work well for sustained use.

Just out of curiousity, would you have any objections to a directive to keep your beard a certain length? Would it be a deal breaker?

I ask, because as far as standards go, there would have to be something. Beards down to the chest could be considered an issue on safety grounds.

Not at all. I had to maintain a certain standard in the Navy, and still stay closr to that standard. If my beard and/or hair are too long, I don't wear a uniform to my weekly meetings. This doesn't happen too often.

Cool. I know that disallowing beards would be a deal breaker for many people, but I wondered if someone being asked to trim it would be a problem as well. I think I'm fairly safe in assuming your response would be echoed by 98 others. I'm allowing the possibility that one person may be stubborn enough that they would leave.

[Eclipse]

>>Those of you who choose to wear a beard, long hair, pony tail, etc., are doing so because it makes a statement about who you are that you want the public to notice.  It doesn't matter what that statement is, its a statement<<

I find such a broad statement like this to be absurd and stereotypical. You're no more qualified to decide why I wear a beard than I am to decide why you despise them so much.

Again, let's not assume a discussion regarding standards automatically means those who'd have to make adjustments are "despised".  Why not make statements that the USAF "despises" fat & fuzzy guys?  Or that CAP hates sponsor members because they don't get grade?  Because its simply not true.

By a "statement" I didn't mean that you're overtly thumbing your nose at the "man", but its naive to believe that the way we dress and groom ourselves doesn't make a statement to the rest of the world, sometimes one we don't intend to make.

[SaBeR33]

The ones with medical situations are a non-issue, get a Dr's note.

This currently isn't allowed with any of the AF-style uniforms or the CSU, so that would have to be a change incorporated into the 39-1. Even while on active duty I still had to abide by this policy even with a medical waiver from the AF, so being in a CAP uniform wasn't something I was too often prepared to do. I asked the folks at National If my waiver would carry over to wearing CAP uniforms and the answer I received was a resounding "NO!" I would shave if I went to a long CAP activity where being in a USAF uniform wasn't kosher, then I would hate life for the next few weeks because of the darn shaving bumps. Until laser hair removal treatment becomes less costly and more effective I'm SOL as are many others with the same medical condition.

[jimmydeanno]

I asked the folks at National If my waiver would carry over to wearing CAP uniforms and the answer I received was a resounding "NO!"

Really?  A resounding NO!?  I've always found the folks at National to be pleasant and helpful with anything I've asked. 

[SaBeR33]

That's what I was told. It wasn't an unpleasant "No." Just one that whomever I spoke to made VERY clear that my medical waiver wouldn't carry over to CAP.

[Eclipse]

That's what I was told. It wasn't an unpleasant "No." Just one that whomever I spoke to made VERY clear that my medical waiver wouldn't carry over to CAP.

Again, that's today, because there are viable alternatives to the uniforms which preclude beards.

Retiring the whites without a viable alternative to those members with a legit medical condition regarding facial hair should not be an option.

[Short Field]

We're more than a bunch of vigilante SAR guys.  We're a paramilitary auxiliary of a military branch. 

This is what Title 10, Section 9442, says we are:  The Civil Air Patrol is a volunteer civilian auxiliary of the Air Force when the services of the Civil Air Patrol are used by any department or agency in any branch of the Federal Government.

A bit further down in Title 10 under Regulations :   
(a) Authority.— The Secretary of the Air Force shall prescribe regulations for the administration of this chapter.
(b) Required Regulations.— The regulations shall include the following:
(1) Regulations governing the conduct of the activities of the Civil Air Patrol when it is performing its duties as a volunteer civilian auxiliary of the Air Force under section 9442 of this title.

[Eclipse]

^ ...and that's not just an "A" mission.  Nearly the entirety of the program could be considered duties as a "volunteer civilian auxiliary of the Air Force".

Certainly there's a lot less that isn't than there is...

[stratoflyer]

Image counts.

Please not debate whether or not we're an auxiliary.

[dbarbee]

>>Those of you who choose to wear a beard, long hair, pony tail, etc., are doing so because it makes a statement about who you are that you want the public to notice.  It doesn't matter what that statement is, its a statement<<

I find such a broad statement like this to be absurd and stereotypical. You're no more qualified to decide why I wear a beard than I am to decide why you despise them so much.

Again, let's not assume a discussion regarding standards automatically means those who'd have to make adjustments are "despised".  Why not make statements that the USAF "despises" fat & fuzzy guys?  Or that CAP hates sponsor members because they don't get grade?  Because its simply not true.

By a "statement" I didn't mean that you're overtly thumbing your nose at the "man", but its naive to believe that the way we dress and groom ourselves doesn't make a statement to the rest of the world, sometimes one we don't intend to make.

My statement was not directed at CAP or USAF, it was directed at an individual CAP member that made a broad, biased assumption about my decision to wear a beard.

The military has an obvious and unique need for uniformity & discipline to deal with life, death, & national security situations. I never mentioned the USAF so I'm not sure where they came into the discussion.

I've read post after post on these boards from individual members very vocal about their disdain for bearded, overweight, and non-advancing members, and how CAP would not be hurt if they all just went away. I never said CAP despises bearded members, it's obvious they don't considering their policies allow it, I insinuated some individual members do. If despise is too strong a word, then pick one that's more suitable, but the bias & disapproval comes across in their posts. Thankfully no one in my squadron or wing seem to have a problem with beards, they're more interested in our skills, participation, and input to the organization.

Of course the way we dress, groom, talk, etc makes a statement about our character, I firmly believe that. But that's not what your original statement said. What you said is that people with beards, "are doing so because it makes a statement about who you are that you want the public to notice", a conscious effort. My beard has nothing to do with who I am (I spent more of my life without a beard than I have with one) and certainly has nothing to do with getting public attention because beards in this part of the country are common and accepted.

I'm in the group that didn't join CAP for the uniforms and military aspect. When I was in the military, I wore my uniforms proudly and correctly and gave my duties 100% of my attention, and was awarded and promoted accordingly. At this time in my life however, I don't have the desire, funds, or time to fill my closet with various uniforms. The Gray Slacks/Blue Golf Shirt is an easy, inexpensive uniform to put together and is appropriate for 75% of the CAP functions I attend. The Aviator Shirt/Gray Slacks uniform  and Blue Utility Coveralls fills the other 25%.

If other CAP members enjoy the military-style uniforms and want to wear them, I have no problem with that, but, please stop harassing those of us that just want a simple, inexpensive uniform. I've only been a member for a short time but the amount of arguing over uniform issues I see on these boards is discouraging. CAP has an overly complicated array of uniform combinations and then members want to flame each other for not wearing them correctly. (How much more attention did the photoshopped magazine cover get compared to the mission that was accomplished?)

Our public image doesn't suffer because of what uniform we're wearing, it suffers from what some members do while they're in uniform or flying CAP airplanes. (Search some aviation message boards)

EDITED for typos

[ZigZag911]

Gray slacks are easily obtained; the CSU blue slacks are very difficult to find in larger sizes, even from Vanguard.

[Rob Sherlin]

 I think maybe allowing beards with the CSU might aid to eliminate the grey uniform. As long as there are standards on the facial hair, I believe a member can still look proffesional and not be "clean cut" ( I believe the Navy at one point allowed well trimmed beards and moustaches),  in a sub military uniform ( I say "sub military" to those who think the CSU doesn't look military for some reason) as long as they don't look like Grizzly Adams or ZZ Top