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Becks
Seasoned Member

Posts: 331

« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2006, 05:59:24 AM »



That's really nice post, but not really a workable solution.  There isn't an unlimited supply of money out there.  I ask again:  who's going to pay?  Who are your going to take money from in order to fund CAP?

I really did not offer a solution on this thread, all I did was point out that we save the US Tax Payers Multi Millions every year, and it might be nice if they added more money to CAP Operating Funds, because of the great job we do, and my theory is a better funded CAP, saves the US Taxpayer more money.

I laid out some ideas, you are a L/Col, why don't you come up with some ideas of your own.

You guys wearing the Silver Oaks, need to do a little thinking outside the box.  Read the posting on the Sheriff Dept thread and you will get some of the ideas I have.


Speaking of money, how many rich folk in Hawaii have you asked about funding your local Squadrons?



We all know that due to recent budget cuts money for CAP is not what it used to be, theres no point beating around the bush. While I agree it would be nice if the Govt kicked a few more dollars our way its the sad truth that we just dont hit very high on the priority list, and given that it is wartime we probably wont any time soon.  The beauty of CAP is that we can ask those rich people for funding (be they in Hawaii or elsewhere).  There is very little we can do about increasing our budget and I agree with the LtCol that the money has to come from somewhere, it wont just appear from the fed. Thus the responsibility falls to the Region, wing, Sqdn etc to find funding and improvise (youre idea regarding the sherrif dep for example). 
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Earhart1971
Seasoned Member

Posts: 397

« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2006, 05:59:53 AM »

You sound like a Msgt, that cannot come up with any ideas, and not a LC.

And you seem not to understand my point.

A. We SAVE the Taxpayers money, HALF A BILLION.

B. The Savings could be increased, I believe, IF CAP was better funded.

Now, if you want to CONFINE yourself to narrow mindness, go ahead.

But you are spending a LOT of your energy to shoot down my ideas.

And you have none of your own.

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Becks
Seasoned Member

Posts: 331

« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2006, 06:07:39 AM »

You sound like a Msgt

And this has bearing on the discussion how?


And you seem not to understand my point.

A. We SAVE the Taxpayers money, HALF A BILLION.

B. The Savings could be increased, I believe, IF CAP was better funded.


Your point you bring up is correct, we do save the taxpayers a hefty sum of money, so what do you presume to do?  Reinvest the money that we save them back into CAP, or get the funding from another source?  Youre right that we would save more by being more effective by having better funding, but like we've been saying all along where do you propose this money comes from.  And before you get upset or take my reply as a jest I want to assure that in no way am I criticizing you, but rather asking you to elaborate your thoughts.  The PD/CAP program was good, but can only work for so many squadrons.
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Earhart1971
Seasoned Member

Posts: 397

« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2006, 06:08:33 AM »



That's really nice post, but not really a workable solution.  There isn't an unlimited supply of money out there.  I ask again:  who's going to pay?  Who are your going to take money from in order to fund CAP?

I really did not offer a solution on this thread, all I did was point out that we save the US Tax Payers Multi Millions every year, and it might be nice if they added more money to CAP Operating Funds, because of the great job we do, and my theory is a better funded CAP, saves the US Taxpayer more money.

I laid out some ideas, you are a L/Col, why don't you come up with some ideas of your own.

You guys wearing the Silver Oaks, need to do a little thinking outside the box.  Read the posting on the Sheriff Dept thread and you will get some of the ideas I have.


Speaking of money, how many rich folk in Hawaii have you asked about funding your local Squadrons?



We all know that due to recent budget cuts money for CAP is not what it used to be, theres no point beating around the bush. While I agree it would be nice if the Govt kicked a few more dollars our way its the sad truth that we just dont hit very high on the priority list, and given that it is wartime we probably wont any time soon.  The beauty of CAP is that we can ask those rich people for funding (be they in Hawaii or elsewhere).  There is very little we can do about increasing our budget and I agree with the LtCol that the money has to come from somewhere, it wont just appear from the fed. Thus the responsibility falls to the Region, wing, Sqdn etc to find funding and improvise (youre idea regarding the sherrif dep for example).  Youd be amazed at what a few carwashes and recruitment drives can do  ;D

This is the attitude that will keep CAP small.

And it goes back to, we don't deserve more money.

Or just the misunderstanding, of how much we do save the Taxpayers of the United States.

Sorry, I am not buying into that attitude.

Who benefits from CAP Service?

The Taxpayers of the this Country.

What could be done is simply pay CAP 10% of the yearly SAVINGS calculated by the number of hours flown.

Also the number of Ground Team hours.

That alone would give CAP a 50% increase in funding.
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Earhart1971
Seasoned Member

Posts: 397

« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2006, 06:25:34 AM »

You sound like a Msgt

And this has bearing on the discussion how?


And you seem not to understand my point.

A. We SAVE the Taxpayers money, HALF A BILLION.

B. The Savings could be increased, I believe, IF CAP was better funded.


Your point you bring up is correct, we do save the taxpayers a hefty sum of money, so what do you presume to do?  Reinvest the money that we save them back into CAP, or get the funding from another source?  Youre right that we would save more by being more effective by having better funding, but like we've been saying all along where do you propose this money comes from.  And before you get upset or take my reply as a jest I want to assure that in no way am I criticizing you, but rather asking you to elaborate your thoughts.  The PD/CAP program was good, but can only work for so many squadrons.

The money is coming from the United States Budget, and I could find the money in a NEW YORK minute.

How about cutting one F-22 out of the budget?

We have about 5% increase in money to the Government every year, put the brakes on a loser program and fund a winning program.

But if I were turned loose, I could find the money in the budget to do it.

But follow me on this, money is tight, but what if CAP was not there to do Searches anymore, the Air Force and the Country would have to spend about a half billion to maybe a Billion to replace 50,000 members with no salary costs and fly a lot more expensive Aircraft.

I assure you if I where the CZAR of the Budget, I could come up with 200 million for CAP.



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shorning
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 968

« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2006, 06:29:33 AM »

A. We SAVE the Taxpayers money, HALF A BILLION.

We don't save them squat.  It's merely money not spent.  That's different than saving money.  It's money that doesn't exist in the first place.  Or, rather, would have to come out of some other pot thereby shortchanging some other program.  So what do we choose?  What can be sacrificed?

B. The Savings could be increased, I believe, IF CAP was better funded.

So we're going to save more money by spending more money?  Great.  Where is that funding going to come from?  You've offered no solutions other than to say "we should get more money". 

Now, if you want to CONFINE yourself to narrow mindness, go ahead.

But you are spending a LOT of your energy to shoot down my ideas.

I haven't shot down a thing.  I asked were would the funding come from.  We're dealing with finite resources.  Gone are the days of endless pits of monies.  The funding has to come from somewhere.  So where?  Whose budget do we cut?

And you have none of your own.

Jerry, that's pathetic.  Again, just because I haven't discussed my solutions doesn't mean I don't have any to offer.  So…should I just side with you and say the world would be a better place if CAP would just get more money?  Can't you stand people to have a counterpoint to yours?  Either way, you're still avoiding my questions.  Apparently you're just a complainer and part of the problem not a solution.

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Earhart1971
Seasoned Member

Posts: 397

« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2006, 06:38:22 AM »

I just told you where, the money is coming from, DROP 1 F-22, a year out of production.

200 million is nothing, its a tip of the hat to CAP.

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shorning
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 968

« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2006, 06:41:11 AM »

The money is coming from the United States Budget, and I could find the money in a NEW YORK minute.

Oh the budget!  Of course.  So which programs get cut to fund CAP?  Or should we raise taxes?

How about cutting one F-22 out of the budget?

Wow, talk about narrow-minded!  Okay, how many more people should the Air Force draw down in order to offset the cost?  Or should the AF cut "quality of life" funding?  What about just not doing improvements to base facilities?  You see, the AF is already facing its own hard choices.  Regardless, that's an entirely different "pot" of money.  It's not O&M funding.  So even if the AF cut one Raptor, they still could spend that money on CAP flight ops.  That's by Congressional mandate.
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Earhart1971
Seasoned Member

Posts: 397

« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2006, 08:09:27 AM »

Steve, you seem to think the world will end if the status quo budget is not mantained?

The budget changes on a yearly basis, you shift money where it is needed, or the money is shifted to political clout.

If CAP doesn't ask, then CAP doesn't get, the National Commander just proved a point, if we ask the right people things can happen.

If I wanted to increase government income, I would lower taxes, it has worked everytime it has been tried. 

With lower taxes more people comply and pay taxes, or how about take,
.001 out of the existing Federal Gas Tax for Avgas and spend it on CAP, even .0001 would work.


 And yes, I could find the money in the Air Force Budget, and a few other budgets spread across the government.

But enough of answering your questions, what Ideas do you have?

Tell me what you discussed about how to improve CAP at your Region Staff Course?









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shorning
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 968

« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2006, 09:00:18 AM »

Steve, you seem to think the world will end if the status quo budget is not mantained?

Not at all, Jerry.  The money has to come from somewhere.  You can't just will it to happen. 

The budget changes on a yearly basis, you shift money where it is needed, or the money is shifted to political clout.

If CAP doesn't ask, then CAP doesn't get, the National Commander just proved a point, if we ask the right people things can happen.

If I wanted to increase government income, I would lower taxes, it has worked everytime it has been tried. 

With lower taxes more people comply and pay taxes, or how about take,
.001 out of the existing Federal Gas Tax for Avgas and spend it on CAP, even .0001 would work.


And yes, I could find the money in the Air Force Budget, and a few other budgets spread across the government.

"I could find the money"?  That's your solution?  So you're really not increasing anyone's budget.  You're just shifting who gets shorted every year?  That's not really a fix.  That's just putting a Band-aid on an avulsion.


But enough of answering your questions, what Ideas do you have?

Well, you really haven't, so no loss there.  But, that's not what this thread is about.  We've already derailed it enough.  Perhaps one of the mods can move the relevant parts to a new thread?  Whatevah?  Pylon?  Or you could start a thread.

Tell me what you discussed about how to improve CAP at your Region Staff Course?

You assume that was part of the curriculum when I went through RSC.  The RSC curriculum has been updated at least once since I went and not all Regions run them the same in the first place.  But again, that's not what this thread is about.  So start a second thread and everyone can discuss it.


----------------------

Folks, sorry for derailing the thread. :-\  I'll now let you get back to your regularily scheduled topic.

Cheers,
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dwb
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,350

« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2006, 12:55:03 PM »

What we have here is a failure to communicate.  :-\

Earhart1971 is saying that more funding to CAP would allow it to do more, and provide better services than the ones it is already providing, and that the services CAP provides are cheaper than any alternative solution.  It would behoove the federal government, and the Air Force, to fund us better.  Which, for the most part, is probably true.

shorning is saying that money is a finite resource, and given the government's rather clear spending priorities, and the 200 years of institutional inertia we'd have to overcome to change the budget process, it's not likely that CAP will just all of a sudden get money from Uncle Sam, at least, not without robbing Peter to pay Pineda.  This is also true.

At this point, the argument has reached something that looks like a scene from The Naked Gun, when Drebin is in a shoot out with someone five feet away, they keep missing, and, when they run out of ammo, they just chuck the guns at each other.

Guys, you're both right.  More funding would always be great, though there is probably a law of diminishing returns at work here; the USAF gets what they want out of us, and the hassle of getting more money would probably not be rewarded in the magnitude of the additional benefits CAP could provide.

So, more money = good, but in addition to budget woes across the board, the amount of additional capabilities we could provide may also exceed the USAF's desire to actually have said capabilities.
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mikeylikey
Banned

Posts: 3,755

« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2006, 01:18:07 PM »

Anyway, instead of fighting about where money comes from and how we could get more, wouldn't it be more worthwhile to look at how CAP as a Corporation spends that money.  I looked at the 2005 end of year report, and read over the CAP budget.  Where can I go to see the exact line items under each section.  Shouldn't that be published since CAP is a Corporation?  I mean specifics, on how much was paid to the Executive Director, and how much was paid for maintenance on water fountains at National, etc.
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What's up monkeys?
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,698

« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2006, 01:57:14 PM »

You sound like a MSgt, that cannot come up with any ideas, and not a LC.

And you seem not to understand my point.

A. We SAVE the Taxpayers money, HALF A BILLION.

B. The Savings could be increased, I believe, IF CAP was better funded.

Now, if you want to CONFINE yourself to narrow mindness, go ahead.

But you are spending a LOT of your energy to shoot down my ideas.

And you have none of your own.



Hold on there TEX!  MSgt Shorning/Lt Col Shorning has been trying to get you to see that there is NO MONEY TO BE HAD.  Yes we save the tax payers billions....so what.  We did not get as much money this year as we wanted.  That is the bottom line.  It is not the Air Forces fault that money is short.  It is Congress's.  Seeing as how the NATIONAL MONEY is not our problem why do we need to propose solutions?  We can solve money problems for our local units but not the problems at National. 

That is NOT because we are MSgts....it is because we are at local units.

Now you are lamenting how the Air Force is trying screw over CAP.....well the Air Force is looking to ax 40K people in the next six years.  They are cutting everyones budgets, flying hours are down, maintenance budgets are cut, new construction has been slipped.  The Air Force is doing all it can to spread its money around and the DID give some of it to CAP, just not as much as we wanted.

Okay...you say we can save more money by getting better funded....that may be true....so what program should the military cut?

Pay raises?  Building Maintenance?  UAV research?  O&M funding?  Come one....you are the one making statements with not proposed solution.  Which vital military program that just got it's budget cut do you want to cut further so CAP can fully fund it's mission?

Finally......If you think NCO's can't think for themselves then you are sadly mistaken, you are showing disrespect to the back bone of the USAF and all military services.

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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,698

« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2006, 02:05:33 PM »

We all know that due to recent budget cuts money for CAP is not what it used to be, theres no point beating around the bush. While I agree it would be nice if the Govt kicked a few more dollars our way its the sad truth that we just don't hit very high on the priority list, and given that it is wartime we probably wont any time soon.  The beauty of CAP is that we can ask those rich people for funding (be they in Hawaii or elsewhere).  There is very little we can do about increasing our budget and I agree with the LtCol that the money has to come from somewhere, it wont just appear from the fed. Thus the responsibility falls to the Region, wing, Sqdn etc to find funding and improvise (youre idea regarding the sherrif dep for example).  Youd be amazed at what a few carwashes and recruitment drives can do  ;D

This is the attitude that will keep CAP small.

And it goes back to, we don't deserve more money.

Or just the misunderstanding, of how much we do save the Taxpayers of the United States.

Sorry, I am not buying into that attitude.

Who benefits from CAP Service?

The Taxpayers of the this Country.

What could be done is simply pay CAP 10% of the yearly SAVINGS calculated by the number of hours flown.

Also the number of Ground Team hours.

That alone would give CAP a 50% increase in funding.

Where exactly does this "10% saving" come from?  When you save federal money it is just spent elsewhere.  Those billions you say we save is from the fact that the military did NOT BUY the airframes in the first place.  It is a virtual savings not a real money in the bank gathering interest savings.

Here I will propose a solution.....why don't we (CAP) use some of our corporate funds and hire some professional fundraiser to gather the needed funding from private sources?  The only problem with this solution is that we will have to take real money from some of our programs to support it.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,698

« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2006, 02:22:14 PM »

The money is coming from the United States Budget, and I could find the money in a NEW YORK minute.

How about cutting one F-22 out of the budget?

We have about 5% increase in money to the Government every year, put the brakes on a loser program and fund a winning program.

But if I were turned loose, I could find the money in the budget to do it.

But follow me on this, money is tight, but what if CAP was not there to do Searches anymore, the Air Force and the Country would have to spend about a half billion to maybe a Billion to replace 50,000 members with no salary costs and fly a lot more expensive Aircraft.

I assure you if I where the CZAR of the Budget, I could come up with 200 million for CAP.

Right.....and what about the need of the Air Force to field a new fighter force?  The F-22's have already been cut down from the original order of 438 has been reduced to 339.  Cutting another one is depriving the Air Force and the Tax Payers we protect of the necessary tools to do our job.

Anyone can sit around and say if "If I were CZAR" such and such would happen.  But lets face it....there is no one person who has that power in the United States.   The budget is approved by congress and the DoD is competing with lots of other departments to fund a lot of requirements.  Sure....if I had the power I would make sure that CAP got funded....but what about all the other things I would have to make sure got funded?

Your statement only points out that you have no idea about the budget process.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Becks
Seasoned Member

Posts: 331

« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2006, 03:08:28 PM »

Just out of curiosity, how much does CAP spend on the free uniform voucher for cadets?  Im not saying we should cut it, im just interested in a figure please.  :)
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jacklumanog
Recruit

Posts: 41
Unit: GLR-MI-001

« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2006, 03:21:09 PM »

Some people think they need to do their best Gunny Hartman impression when training cadets.

Alright, Full Metal Jacket!  I've never seen the "Gunny Hartman" treatment with the cadets in my squadron, but based on some of the photos I've seen up on cadetstuff.org, there seem to be a few instances of cadet leadership living the dream of being a drill instructor.

Just be yourself already and use the voice that God and your relatives gave you. 

Sorry for the disjointed thought here... just sharing my 2 cents.
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Ch, Lt Col Jon I. Lumanog, CAP
Special Assistant to the National Chief of Chaplains for Diversity of Ministry
Major_Chuck
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 554

« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2006, 03:34:52 PM »

Cutting a F-22 from the budget is not an option.  If you want to save the tax payers some money as Budget Czar then go for a line item veto.

Cut out pork from the budget as a whole, starting with the salaries and perks of many of our esteemed congressmen.  You can find wasteful projects through out the entire budget of the United States.  Zeroing in on a national defense item is the wrong move.

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Chuck Cranford
SGT, TNCO VA OCS
Virginia Army National Guard
Al Sayre
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,514
Unit: SER-MS-001

Mississippi Wing
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2006, 06:19:14 PM »

If we could cut half the pork out of the budget, we'd have a surplus.  The"bridge to nowhere" immediately comes to mind.  Also a lot of the NEA grants, and paying some college professors to study cow flatulence or the life cycle of the East Bumfield water dwelling mole cricket of which there are only 300 left- Just get a can of bug spray for $3.00 and finish them off.
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Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787
CaptPhoenix
Newbie

Posts: 1

« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2006, 07:54:08 PM »

I must agree with FlyGuy06. If you "volunteered"; if you wear the uniform, and if YOU made the choice, then you'd better "walk-the-walk". Don't whine about "I won't do this or that 'cause I'm only a "volunteer". If you use that excuse, take a look at the uniform you're wearing. If you still can't get squared-away, well......don't let the door hit you in the you-know-what, on the way OUT!
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