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Author Topic: Cadets Dating  (Read 26108 times)
hatentx
Seasoned Member

Posts: 320

« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2009, 08:28:18 AM »

let them date they are kids.... wait some people dont think they are kids.... they are adolescents and are going to be interested in romantic relationships and they are going to be interested in people they know.  It is funny how it is alot like how adults work to huh.  Let them date but ensure they understand the rules and regulations along with the professional attitude that must come along with the change of a break up.  I would handle a SM relationship the same way.  While husband and wife is different in the fact that they are together a romantic encounter between SM in the same squadron would need to be kept professional. 

 :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:oh by the way any single ladies looking??? :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:
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Strick
Banned

Posts: 375
Unit: NYS

« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2009, 10:21:36 AM »

CAP dating?        I use to only date CAP girls then I discovered the Club scene ;D
No PDA in uniform and what people do outside of CAP is their business
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[darn]atio memoriae
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,653

« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2009, 11:27:41 AM »

Does CAP consider a "cadet" unable to "legally" (CAP-wise) consent to dating a senior?  I say they are both responsible, especially if the cadet is over 18. 

This then breaks down the whole idea of the hard line between Senior/Cadet dating.  If they are "responsible" to make their own decisions then there is no need to protect them.

One of the reasons why I thought the hard line "no seniors dating cadets" was not the best way of going about it.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
DG
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 502

« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2009, 12:47:49 PM »

I'm not sure if you left out the membership catagories of the lovers to make a point, but if Romeo and Juliet are both cadets or both seniors, then I agree that the commander's job is discourage the relationship if they are in the chain of command or of substantially different grades.

However, if only one of the members is a cadet, then the commander's job is clear.  The relationship will cease, or the senior will need to be a former or patron member.


Thus, since a unit is not BIG BROTHER, ultimately the rules can only be enforced actively when on a CAP activity.

I think the regulation wisely recognizes that people are people (especially cadets).  The only "bright line rule" is that seniors never, ever date cadets period.

On or off duty.  Not between meetings or out of state.

Not in box.  Not with a fox.  Seniors may not date them here or there - seniors may not date cadets anywhere. 






Where do you see this in the Regulations?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2009, 12:52:12 PM by DG » Logged
Always Ready
Seasoned Member

Posts: 230

« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2009, 12:53:07 PM »

This then breaks down the whole idea of the hard line between Senior/Cadet dating.  If they are "responsible" to make their own decisions then there is no need to protect them.

One of the reasons why I thought the hard line "no seniors dating cadets" was not the best way of going about it.
^+1

I wonder if the courts would deem it discriminatory if a Senior member and Cadet (who is older than the SM) are dating and the Senior member becomes the only one held accountable. I can see the story on CNN..."19 year old and 18 can't date...this coming from the same organization that ousted their first minority National Commander. CAP is a Congressionally chartered organization that is the official auxiliary of the Air Force." That would go over well with the public. First they are going to think we are racist. Then they are going to think we have stupid rules. After that, they are going to want the AF and Congress to cut us off and possibly bring back HWSNBN since he was "discriminated against" over a "stupid rule".

While I agree that Cadets and Senior Members shouldn't date in most cases. I don't think our grade system sets us up for success. If they want the hard line rule, make all us members in the 18-20 year old range either all Cadet or all Senior Member, not both. That way the situation is black and white. Instead of black, white, and gray.

We also need to add a rule so that both dating between Cadets and dating between Senior Members is "ok" if both parties keep it professional. If they don't, their memberships should be suspended until the situation is resolved. That would cut out a LOT of drama on both sides of the aisle.
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Stonewall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,934

« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2009, 12:53:41 PM »

If that rule does exist, officially, wouldn't it be funny to say that an 18 year old senior member couldn't date a 20 year old cadet.

Crusty Squadron Commander:  "YOU CAN'T DATE TFO JONES BECAUSE HE'S A SENIOR MEMBER AND YOU'RE A CADET!".

20 year old Eaker cadet:  "But I'm 2 years older than he is!"
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jimmydeanno
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,155
Unit: ǝnƃoɹ

« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2009, 12:56:00 PM »

FOR DG...

Quote from: 52-16, 1-4(h)(2), page 9

(2) Fraternization. ... Because seniors have intrinsic supervisory authority over cadets, senior members will not date or have an intimate romantic relationship with a cadet at any time, regardless of the circumstances.

Also note that it has nothing to do with age factor - it states it is because of "intrinsic supervisory authority."
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If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,653

« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2009, 02:08:41 PM »

And that ties back into just about any discussion we have had about cadets driving COV's and being PICs.

I can live with the rule......but it only points out a lot of gray areas that do not make a whole lot of sense.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
O-Rex
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 903

« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2009, 02:14:38 PM »

Anyone dating anyone in CAP is a bad idea, akin to dating someone where you work.

Hormones versus CAP.  I think we'd lose. . . .

It's part of the cadet experience:  let them learn it here, before it gets them in real hot-water elsewhere later on.

Upside, I know of a few cadet romances that blossomed into stable marriages when they grew up.  :angel:
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Stonewall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,934

« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2009, 02:18:46 PM »

Upside, I know of a few cadet romances that blossomed into stable marriages when they grew up.  :angel:

Downside, the "love triangle" of the former CAP cadet (Spaatzen even) who ended up killing his ex-girlfriend, etc.  You know, the USNA/USAFA thing from the mid or late 90s?  Yeah, not a good example of how cadet relationships can pan out... :o
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davidsinn
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Posts: 3,017
Unit: NW-IN

« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2009, 02:51:57 PM »

Upside, I know of a few cadet romances that blossomed into stable marriages when they grew up.  :angel:

Downside, the "love triangle" of the former CAP cadet (Spaatzen even) who ended up killing his ex-girlfriend, etc.  You know, the USNA/USAFA thing from the mid or late 90s?  Yeah, not a good example of how cadet relationships can pan out... :o

You get nutcases all over so that's not a real good reason to ban cadets from dating.
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Former CAP Captain
David Sinn
SM-MADDOG
Member

Posts: 61

NRA News
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2009, 03:09:49 PM »

I agree. While either cadets dating cadets or seiors dating senors is fine by Me, as long as it is done outside of CAP and they dont bring any problems to the squadron. Also Why ban cadets from dating because of a bad incident. I mean if thats the case than no one can date or get married. Have You ever looked at the domestic violence crime rate? Look at how many people get divorced a year.

I dont like banning things that shouldnt be. I like this country and dont want to see if turn into "one" of them countries. Plus the last time i checked its not illegal for teens to date or adults.

Upside, I know of a few cadet romances that blossomed into stable marriages when they grew up.  :angel:

Downside, the "love triangle" of the former CAP cadet (Spaatzen even) who ended up killing his ex-girlfriend, etc.  You know, the USNA/USAFA thing from the mid or late 90s?  Yeah, not a good example of how cadet relationships can pan out... :o

You get nutcases all over so that's not a real good reason to ban cadets from dating.
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2nd Lt, CAP
Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,202

« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2009, 03:38:28 PM »

Just a brief recap -- the regulation does not prohibit cadets from dating cadets; it only discourages relationships when there is a substantial difference in grade or if the cadets are in the chain of command.

Otherwise, they are free to date or not.

There is indeed a bright line prohibition against seniors dating cadets, regardless of the ages of the individuals involved.

And yes, for every "Romeo and Juliet" situation where a 20 year-old cadet and a similarly aged senior are dating, I can show you some horrendous cases of 30 year old squadron commanders "dating" 15 year old cadets.

We wrote the regulation to make it easy to determine what is OK and what is not.  You could certainly write a regulation that says something like "seniors cannot date cadets more than three years younger, and only if they are not in the same unit or chain of command."  It's not unreasonable on it's face, but winds up being a huge pain in the tail to administer.

I've had to do my fair share of investigations of such "relationships"- I cannot tell you how distasteful it is to have to ask the cadet, her/his parents, and the senior involved questions about such an intimate topic.

Remember, we are not the only youth organization that prohibits relationships between the adult leaders and the students.  Actually, we were among the last to adopt such a rule.  High school teachers cannot date their 18 year old students, nor can college professors.  Scout leaders cannot date scouts, Venturing Crew leaders cannot date even the adult scouts.

The bright line rule protects our cadets against improper and unwanted relationships suggested by senior members who always outrank the cadet.

If they are really in Love, then they know that true love abides.  They can wait until the cadet turns senior (or the senior becomes a former member.)

We should focus on protecting our troops, not serving them up to avaricious seniors.
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JoeTomasone
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,661

« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2009, 04:38:08 PM »

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
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caprr275
Forum Regular

Posts: 130

« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2009, 06:50:22 PM »

Stonewall… that has happened I know of a few cadets/seniors that were in that exact situation where the 20 year old C/Lt Col got his 19 year old GF to join CAP as a flight officer and then they were told after she joined that she had to quit or he had to go senior because they were dating.

Another example of how this rule is not the way it should be is if a 20 year old cadet col is dating another 20 year old cadet col one turns 21 first the other a few months later. Are you going to tell them they have to break up after dating for years or are you going to tell the spaatz cadet that they have to turn senior member or their significant other will be kicked out.

Its not a prefect rule but it is there to protect cadets. I think it needs a few small changes but then again you can never make a rule to fit every situation.

Ned… In Michigan it is LEGAL for teachers to date students as long as they are 18 and a teacher can date a 16 year old student if the student is emancipated
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O-Rex
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 903

« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2009, 06:59:12 PM »

This stuff happens in the military too.

Usually if both are enlisted and one gets commissioned the couple is grandfathered, but if boy meets girl, they're both mil, and there's a "gold-bar" that separates the two, one of them has to either get out or the officer resigns his or her commission.

CAP Senior/Cadet relationships, one word: DON'T.
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RogueLeader
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,621
Unit: Of measure

« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2009, 07:13:59 PM »

Another example of how this rule is not the way it should be is if a 20 year old cadet col is dating another 20 year old cadet col one turns 21 first the other a few months later. Are you going to tell them they have to break up after dating for years or are you going to tell the spaatz cadet that they have to turn senior member or their significant other will be kicked out.

The answer is YES.  There is NO other alternative at this time and place.  I agree that it stinks to high heaven, but that is the way it is.  I'm sure that the two C/Cols' understand the regs and will abide by them.  If they can't, they shouldn't be C/Col
« Last Edit: January 26, 2009, 08:24:42 PM by MIKE » Logged
<redacted>

GRW 3340
Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,202

« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2009, 07:22:10 PM »

[T]he 20 year old C/Lt Col got his 19 year old GF to join CAP as a flight officer and then they were told after she joined that she had to quit or he had to go senior because they were dating.

How odd.  Why on earth would any cadet convince his girlfriend join as a senior member under the current rules?

I'm sure it must have been because the 19 year old GF had talents and time to give to the organization.  Which we certainly could use.

I sure can't think of any other reason . . . . . ::)

Quote
Another example of how this rule is not the way it should be is if a 20 year old cadet col is dating another 20 year old cadet col one turns 21 first the other a few months later. Are you going to tell them they have to break up after dating for years or are you going to tell the spaatz cadet that they have to turn senior member or their significant other will be kicked out.

In all honesty, this doesn't seem like a real problem.  If they are so in love that they cannot bear to be apart, then the 21 year old prospective senior could simply delay transitioning to senior member status for several months until the slightly younger cadet caught up.  It doesn't cost anything (since the "cadet-to-senior" transition is free).  Besides, no self-respecting Spaatz cadet really wants to be a senior in the first place.

Remember, "true love abides."  (At least for a couple of months.  ;D)

Quote
Ned… In Michigan it is LEGAL for teachers to date students as long as they are 18 and a teacher can date a 16 year old student if the student is emancipated

But we aren't talking "legal vs illegal."  We are talking about rules and regulations.  I'll wager an adult beverage of your choice that every public high school in Michigan has a rule that disallows such dating.  If for no other reason than most accrediting agencies require such a rule in every school.

It's not "illegal" for an attorney to have sex with his/her client in California.  But it is a violation of the ethical rules and could result in disbarment.


Just as it is not illegal for a Scouting executive to date a 18 year old explorer.  But it would quickly result in a career change for the executive.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2009, 08:24:09 PM by MIKE » Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,232

« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2009, 07:26:17 PM »

Another example of how this rule is not the way it should be is if a 20 year old cadet col is dating another 20 year old cadet col one turns 21 first the other a few months later. Are you going to tell them they have to break up after dating for years or are you going to tell the spaatz cadet that they have to turn senior member or their significant other will be kicked out.

Yes.
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Hawk200
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,622

« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2009, 07:53:15 PM »

Another example of how this rule is not the way it should be is if a 20 year old cadet col is dating another 20 year old cadet col one turns 21 first the other a few months later. Are you going to tell them they have to break up after dating for years or are you going to tell the spaatz cadet that they have to turn senior member or their significant other will be kicked out.

I'd say yes, too.

But there are other choices as well. One could get out (stinks). The younger could go senior as well (doesn't stink as bad). If the two are absolutely stuck on being CAP together to the point that nothing else matters, option two really isn't all that bad. With both as a senior, no rule is being violated, and it would show others that the rule is taken seriously.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  The Lobby  |  Topic: Cadets Dating
 


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